What’s the silliest Smash argument you’ve heard? - Read OP

[Perkilator]

"Doomguy can't get in because the BFG abbreviation is too inappropriate for Smash!"

The Big Friendly Giant is inappropriate for Smash?/s

Any super bad arguments for Byleth (besides swords, anime, and FE)?

Also:

For the record guys, I don't for a second believe the vid. I just like the thought of a Porky trailer involving Giygas and hadn't seen it linked on the thread .

The blurryness and the fact it is a fully animated trailer for a DLC character make this obviously fake.

That second part of the last sentence aged well, didn’t it?

 

[Izanagi97]

Any super bad arguments for Byleth (besides swords, anime, and FE)?

Those arguments are basically it. I'm more of a fan of waiting until a second fighter's pass before we decide to add first party fighters from recently released games to avoid a repeat of Corrin

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Master Chief can't be in Smash because....

• He's owned by Microsoft!
  • 
• Halo is too mature to have content in Smash!
  • 
    
  • Halo 5 has a rating of Teen, a drop down from the M ratings precious games got.
• Realistic firearms can't be in Smash!
  • 
    
  • Look at all of the weapons in Halo and tell me which ones resemble weapons used today. Very few, right?
• First Person Shooters can't be in Smash!
  • Says who, you? That's one of the weakest fan ruled I've ever heard.
• It wouldn't be good for Nintendo to help their rivals like that!
  • 
    
  • It wouldn't be the first time Nintendo and Microsoft have worked together on something.
• Halo is dying!
  • I doubt anyone believes this unless you're the person who wrote that 'Destiny has Surpassed Halo" manifesto.
  • Halo Infinite is literally going to be the launch title of Xbox Scarlet in 2020.
  • There are countless dead or dying characters in Smash anyway.
• Halo is too irrelevant!
  • Then you've been living under a rock.

 

[Perkilator]

Master Chief can't be in Smash because....

• He's owned by Microsoft!
  • 
• Halo is too mature to have content in Smash!
  • 
    
  • Halo 5 has a rating of Teen, a drop down from the M ratings precious games got.
• Realistic firearms can't be in Smash!
  • 
    
  • Look at all of the weapons in Halo and tell me which ones resemble weapons used today. Very few, right?
• First Person Shooters can't be in Smash!
  • Says who, you? That's one of the weakest fan ruled I've ever heard.
• It wouldn't be good for Nintendo to help their rivals like that!
  • 
    
  • It wouldn't be the first time Nintendo and Microsoft have worked together on something.
• Halo is dying!
  • I doubt anyone believes this unless you're the person who wrote that 'Destiny has Surpassed Halo" manifesto.
  • Halo Infinite is literally going to be the launch title of Xbox Scarlet in 2020.
  • There are countless dead or dying characters in Smash anyway.
• Halo is too irrelevant!
  • Then you've been living under a rock.

I'll do you one actually logical: he's never been on a Nintendo console (even Joker was on one, and that was the 3DS's swan song).

 

[Xelrog]

I'll do you one actually logical: he's never been on a Nintendo console (even Joker was on one, and that was the 3DS's swan song).

That hasn't mattered since Brawl.

 

[Perkilator]

That hasn't mattered since Brawl.

....So we're going to pretend that Snake and Sonic's games haven't been ported to Nintendo consoles before Brawl?

 

[Xelrog]

....So we're going to pretend that Snake and Sonic's games haven't been ported to Nintendo consoles before Brawl?

I didn't say anything like that. I'm saying that being on a Nintendo console in any capacity is not a requirement for a character to be in Smash, and hasn't been for a long time. The only time it was ever a requirement was during Brawl's character polls.

 

[Crystanium]

King Dedede needs to be nerfed. Yep, I said that in my anger. I figured I'd depreciate myself here. Or does that count as being honest and people will think I'm a better person for admitting my salt?

 

[Ze Diglett]

King Dedede needs to be nerfed. Yep, I said that in my anger. I figured I'd depreciate myself here. Or does that count as being honest and people will think I'm a better person for admitting my salt?

It honest-to-god baffles me that a Samus main thinks Dedede should be nerfed. I mean, that matchup's basically unplayable for Dedede!

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I'll do you one actually logical: he's never been on a Nintendo console (even Joker was on one, and that was the 3DS's swan song).

I knew I was forgetting one. I'd argue that's a fan rule since that's never been repeated by any of the devs, nor has anyone hinted that only characters on Nintendo consoles can be in Smash.

 

[StormC]

I knew I was forgetting one. I'd argue that's a fan rule since that's never been repeated by any of the devs, nor has anyone hinted that only characters on Nintendo consoles can be in Smash.

Sakurai has said it’s a point in their favor on a couple of occasions, but not necessarily that he would never include a non-Nintendo appearing character.

 

[Ze Diglett]

Appearing on a Nintendo platform is something Sakurai takes into consideration, but not a hard requirement like people think it is. Honestly, characters like Cloud and Joker really make it feel like a formality at best at this point.

 

[Crystanium]

It honest-to-god baffles me that a Samus main thinks Dedede should be nerfed. I mean, that matchup's basically unplayable for Dedede!

I wish. Gordo interrupts everything. King Dedede can either catch or inhale Gordo and throw it back. His weight makes him survive way too long. He has multiple jumps, which isn't easy paying attention to when he's throwing Gordos at you. Gordo lands more often than Samus' Charge Shot. It'd be great if Samus had a counter, since Sakurai & Co. are obsessed with counters/reflectors now. And let's not entertain the idea that Samus will ever have a good CQC. Because **** her, am I right?

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Sakurai has said it’s a point in their favor on a couple of occasions, but not necessarily that he would never include a non-Nintendo appearing character.

Well, never mind then. I was wrong. I guess then one could argue Chief wouldn't hold a terrible amount of priority over another FPS character who has appeared on the Switch for that reason alone, but that doesn't seem like a compelling argument to bar a character from the game. Simply put, if the devs ever considered a character from a first person shooter for Smash and one of the candidates was Chief, it's arguable that the only reason another character would hold greater priority would be if they appeared on a Nintendo console first.

....I just confused myself.

Edit: Fixed typos.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'll do you one actually logical: he's never been on a Nintendo console (even Joker was on one, and that was the 3DS's swan song).

I mean, the Minecraft skin is of him directly. So it's not completely true. A cameo is still an appearance.

Too bad we never got the Halo DS thing, though. But yeah, as noted above, it was never a hard requirement. A long time back, SourceGaming mistranslated it to the idea they "had to have a console appearance". Which got fixed, but stuck with many people. In reality, it's just that, something he takes into consideration. For a business, they may be more likely to agree with working with a company if they did so before. For Sakurai, he doesn't care about console wars at all, but he's not the only one involved in Licensing talks. Nintendo is always a part of it. That means that the Nintendo factor may matter, just not cause of Sakurai. His opinion doesn't trump the fact he doesn't "own" the series whatsoever.

That make sense?

 

[Ze Diglett]

I wish. Gordo interrupts everything. King Dedede can either catch or inhale Gordo and throw it back. His weight makes him survive way too long. He has multiple jumps, which isn't easy paying attention to when he's throwing Gordos at you. Gordo lands more often than Samus' Charge Shot. It'd be great if Samus had a counter, since Sakurai & Co. are obsessed with counters/reflectors now. And let's not entertain the idea that Samus will ever have a good CQC. Because **** her, am I right?

Gordos are basically impossible to throw out safely in the Samus MU due to how many projectiles Samus throws out, and they all reflect Gordo without fail. The Samus MU is just miserable for Dedede even if he manages to slog out a win. Trash mobility, massive hitbox, no way to camp... he's left in this incredibly awkward position where he can only win if he's up close, but has no way to get there, especially against campy characters. (Which is a position a lot of heavies find themselves in, unfortunately.)

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I wish. Gordo interrupts everything. King Dedede can either catch or inhale Gordo and throw it back. His weight makes him survive way too long. He has multiple jumps, which isn't easy paying attention to when he's throwing Gordos at you. Gordo lands more often than Samus' Charge Shot. It'd be great if Samus had a counter, since Sakurai & Co. are obsessed with counters/reflectors now. And let's not entertain the idea that Samus will ever have a good CQC. Because **** her, am I right?

In Dededefense, Gordo is without question one of the worst--if not, the absolute worst--projectile in the game. It has the same amount of startup of Ganon's forward Smash (29 frames) and is the only projectile in the game that can be reflected by normal attacks. Any attack that deals at least 2% damage reflects the Gordo back at Dedede, usually at faster speeds than the Gordo is thrown. Thanks to the amount of endlag Gordo has, the it can be reflected and hit Dedede back before he even has time to react.

Being heavy is what keeps Dedede from being one of the worst fighters in the game. For a character with some of the slowest frame data and movement speeds overall (the slowest airspeed in the game) as well as one of the largest hurtboxes, being heavy helps is necessary since he gets hit by so many attacks. Having multiple jumps is compensation (albeit poor compensation) for having the worst airspeed in the game, as well as reflects his canon ability to jump infinitely in Kirby games.

As a Dedede main it took me a long time to learn the Dark/Samus matchup so I can give you some advice.

• If the Dedede player is spamming gordos a lot, stay back and hit them with super missiles. They will always get reflected and more times than not hit him back. Do not challenge Dedede in the air since there it may be a bait so get hit by Gordo or another attack. Instead try to read a Gordo and punish them before they have time to react.
• On the other hand, if they are playing a rushdown strategy as Dedede, don't rely so heavily on projectiles and instead beat him using faster aerials. If they are simply running towards you hoping to grab or use a grounded move, surprise them by grabbing them with your tether or an aerial approach instead of retreating. An aggressive Dedede will be less likely to try to bait a bad approach, so if they run (or fly) toward you it may be better to counter their approach with f-air, n-air, or u-air before they get the change to attack.
• Another way to beat rushed approaches is to simply do some light camping on platforms, since there's almostnothing Dedede can do against camping. Stalling with down B, spacing with f-air and Super Missile, etc. are all good ways to abuse Dedede's slow speed and large hurtbox.
• Dedede has one of the most linear recoveries in the game. A lot of Dededes will try to recover deep since he has a super armor recovery with a nice vertical range. Since the Samuses have a nice hitbox size on d-air, try spiking them (or getting a stage spike with another aerial) if they're hovering below the stage--after all, Dedede has one of the largest hurtboxes in all of Smash.
• Only use Charge Shot when you read a Gordo to reflect it before Dedede has time to react or when they're stalling in the air. NEVER use Charge Shot in close quarters or when they're far enough away to inhale it. Use it as a surprise tool.

That's as much as I know about the matchup since there aren't that many Samuses online. I hope this helps!

 

[Perkilator]

I mean, the Minecraft skin is of him directly. So it's not completely true. A cameo is still an appearance.

Too bad we never got the Halo DS thing, though. But yeah, as noted above, it was never a hard requirement. A long time back, SourceGaming mistranslated it to the idea they "had to have a console appearance". Which got fixed, but stuck with many people. In reality, it's just that, something he takes into consideration. For a business, they may be more likely to agree with working with a company if they did so before. For Sakurai, he doesn't care about console wars at all, but he's not the only one involved in Licensing talks. Nintendo is always a part of it. That means that the Nintendo factor may matter, just not cause of Sakurai. His opinion doesn't trump the fact he doesn't "own" the series whatsoever.

That make sense?

Alright, sure. But I still believe that Halo DS's cancellation snuffed out any flickering hope Master Chief had for Smash (unless Sakurai somehow goes crazy or something).

 

[Deleted member]

Heres one of many ridiculous arguments i've heard.

"One off abilities dont count!1! If an ability only appeared in one game then it doesnt count"

Imagine unironically making that argument when the face of Nintendo has a "one off ability" since Melee

Edit: scratch that Mario had a "one of ability" since 64 lmao.

 

[Xelrog]

Heres one of many ridiculous arguments i've heard.

"One off abilities dont count!1! If an ability only appeared in one game then it doesnt count"

Imagine unironically making that argument when the face of Nintendo has a "one off ability" since Melee.

One-off abilities aren't unprecedented, but a move better represents the character if it's present in more than one of their mainline games.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

In Dededefense, Gordo is without question one of the worst--if not, the absolute worst--projectile in the game. It has the same amount of startup of Ganon's forward Smash (29 frames) and is the only projectile in the game that can be reflected by normal attacks. Any attack that deals at least 2% damage reflects the Gordo back at Dedede, usually at faster speeds than the Gordo is thrown. Thanks to the amount of endlag Gordo has, the it can be reflected and hit Dedede back before he even has time to react.

Being heavy is what keeps Dedede from being one of the worst fighters in the game. For a character with some of the slowest frame data and movement speeds overall (the slowest airspeed in the game) as well as one of the largest hurtboxes, being heavy helps is necessary since he gets hit by so many attacks. Having multiple jumps is compensation (albeit poor compensation) for having the worst airspeed in the game, as well as reflects his canon ability to jump infinitely in Kirby games.

As a Dedede main it took me a long time to learn the Dark/Samus matchup so I can give you some advice.

• If the Dedede player is spamming gordos a lot, stay back and hit them with super missiles. They will always get reflected and more times than not hit him back. Do not challenge Dedede in the air since there it may be a bait so get hit by Gordo or another attack. Instead try to read a Gordo and punish them before they have time to react.
• On the other hand, if they are playing a rushdown strategy as Dedede, don't rely so heavily on projectiles and instead beat him using faster aerials. If they are simply running towards you hoping to grab or use a grounded move, surprise them by grabbing them with your tether or an aerial approach instead of retreating. An aggressive Dedede will be less likely to try to bait a bad approach, so if they run (or fly) toward you it may be better to counter their approach with f-air, n-air, or u-air before they get the change to attack.
• Another way to beat rushed approaches is to simply do some light camping on platforms, since there's almostnothing Dedede can do against camping. Stalling with down B, spacing with f-air and Super Missile, etc. are all good ways to abuse Dedede's slow speed and large hurtbox.
• Dedede has one of the most linear recoveries in the game. A lot of Dededes will try to recover deep since he has a super armor recovery with a nice vertical range. Since the Samuses have a nice hitbox size on d-air, try spiking them (or getting a stage spike with another aerial) if they're hovering below the stage--after all, Dedede has one of the largest hurtboxes in all of Smash.
• Only use Charge Shot when you read a Gordo to reflect it before Dedede has time to react or when they're stalling in the air. NEVER use Charge Shot in close quarters or when they're far enough away to inhale it. Use it as a surprise tool.

That's as much as I know about the matchup since there aren't that many Samuses online. I hope this helps!

I heavily disagree with the assessment on Gordos. They are not meant to be spammed like other projectiles and calling it the "absolute worst projectile in the game" is terribly misinformed. It's one of the strongest zoning tools during advantage in the game, and you are heavily downplaying these assets by exaggerating its start and end lag. If you got hit in the face by reflected Gordo, that's on you for throwing it out at an unsafe distance. Dedede shouldn't be tossing them in an unfavorable position. His frame data isn't that terrible either because most of his moves come out at a decent speed.

Regarding the Samus matchup, if a Dedede spams Gordos they don't know what they are doing and deserve to get punished for it. And Samus can't camp as well as you think; there are other characters who can play that role better than her like Megaman and Villager.

I find hard to believe that these words came from Dedede mains. I've seen what Dedede can do at high level, so am I the only one here who thinks he is fine and that he doesn't need any buffs? I have this crazy theory that perhaps some Dedede mains, driven by their bias, keep saying that he is trash because they want their character to be broken ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . I don't like it because it spreads misinformation.

 

[Xelrog]

I don't think Dedede is amazing, but he's not unviable, and Gordos are far from the worst projectile in the game.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I find hard to believe that these words came from Dedede mains. I've seen what Dedede can do at high level, so am I the only one here who thinks he is fine and that he doesn't need any buffs? I have this crazy theory that perhaps some Dedede mains, driven by their bias, keep saying that he is trash because they want their character to be broken ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . I don't like it because it spreads misinformation.

First of all, I'm not a Dedede main. I tried maining Dedede for a while, but he's just not consistent enough for me to feel comfortable maining him, so he's a firm secondary for now. I know that won't stop you from believing that Dedede mains are just plotting to make him the best character in the game or something, but make of that what you will. Second, while I heavily disagree with the notion that Gordos are the worst projectile in the game - they're not great, but they're also not Clown Cannon bad - I also disagree with what seems to be the popular opinion that Dedede is in a good spot balance-wise. Right now, I feel he's low-tier at best due to his overwhelming weaknesses, and if he continues to be ignored in balance patches like he has (which will probably end up being the case, unfortunately), I have a feeling he'll probably shake out to being bottom 10 again like he was in Smash 4. Zoners in particular just smother the poor penguin, and rushdowns and swordies barely give him any room to breathe either. Just because he's improved from his abysmal Smash 4 incarnation doesn't automatically mean he's good like so many people are assuming.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

First of all, I'm not a Dedede main. I tried maining Dedede for a while, but he's just not consistent enough for me to feel comfortable maining him, so he's a firm secondary for now. I know that won't stop you from believing that Dedede mains are just plotting to make him the best character in the game or something, but make of that what you will. Second, while I heavily disagree with the notion that Gordos are the worst projectile in the game - they're not great, but they're also not Clown Cannon bad - I also disagree with what seems to be the popular opinion that Dedede is in a good spot balance-wise. Right now, I feel he's low-tier at best due to his overwhelming weaknesses, and if he continues to be ignored in balance patches like he has (which will probably end up being the case, unfortunately), I have a feeling he'll probably shake out to being bottom 10 again like he was in Smash 4. Zoners in particular just smother the poor penguin, and rushdowns and swordies barely give him any room to breathe either. Just because he's improved from his abysmal Smash 4 incarnation doesn't automatically mean he's good like so many people are assuming.

Gordos are extremely oppressive when used in advantage. They are not meant to be thrown out very often during neutral or they will get kicked back at your face. If you pull out a Gordo, you have to be aware of the opponent's options in their position. Do they have a chance to hit the Gordo and bounce it back to you? If yes, make sure there is enough distance between both players so that you have time to Shield, Inhale or bounce it back. If a Dedede gets spam happy with their Gordos, they don't know what they are doing and they are going to get punished for it. But I know you don't realize this because you think its impossible to throw Gordos safely in the Samus MU. Remind me again what worthwhile information you can elaborate to me about Dedede, because you exactly don't inspire me as very knowledgeable in his kit.

You can throw Gordos while your opponent is in the air above and in front you which can give you a chance to shark them or when they are a ledge where they become an excellent trapping tool that give you a good chance to KO them. Gordos, like many moves, can be devastating when used properly. And from the looks of it, I'm sure nobody else in this thread seems to understand how to use them properly because they keep treating them like a conventional projectile.

And in regards to Dedede's balance, unless they do a complete redesign of the character, there will always be bad MUs for him. But in Ultimate, that alone isn't enough to consider him bad. He wasn't just improved from his Smash 4 incarnation, he was heavily improved. And people aren't assuming anything, he has achieved good results. In spite of his weaknesses, he is not hurting for any buffs as of now, and the only quality of life change I could see happening is a slight increase to his airspeed. While that change is not unwelcome by any means it also isn't as necessary as some people would like us to believe. Then again, you have a few misguided DDD mains or players who don't even touch the character telling us how bad he has it. If I sound abrasive its because of that spread of inaccuracies from people who fail to put work into the character who give others the wrong idea. If Dedede goes untouched by patches until the end of Smash Ultimate, I can confidently say that he would still be in a good place.

 

[Crystanium]

Gordos are basically impossible to throw out safely in the Samus MU due to how many projectiles Samus throws out, and they all reflect Gordo without fail. The Samus MU is just miserable for Dedede even if he manages to slog out a win. Trash mobility, massive hitbox, no way to camp... he's left in this incredibly awkward position where he can only win if he's up close, but has no way to get there, especially against campy characters. (Which is a position a lot of heavies find themselves in, unfortunately.)

Homing missiles can only travel so high. The kind of King Dedede I've had to deal with, whom I've terribly lost to, relies on his jumps and Gordo spam. Again, I'm so focused on trying to avoid Gordos that I can't keep up with counting how many jumps he's used. He managed to get really close to me, even grabbed me multiple times because of this. I was aware of what he was trying to do, but I couldn't think of any way around it. It would help immensely if Samus' f-air was reliable, but the animation can appear while the hitbox doesn't. This happens without warning. I've used f-air against different players and my aerial came out first, but when the animation clearly connects with the opponent, the opponent at times won't take damage or knock-back, and instead will punish me. Trying this against Gordo puts me in a bad spot. I could try n-air. I just wish z-air was as good as it was in SSBB or even SSB4. I only called myself out because I what I said about King Dedede needing nerfs was said in my angered state. I appreciate the advice, though.

In Dededefense, Gordo is without question one of the worst--if not, the absolute worst--projectile in the game. It has the same amount of startup of Ganon's forward Smash (29 frames) and is the only projectile in the game that can be reflected by normal attacks. Any attack that deals at least 2% damage reflects the Gordo back at Dedede, usually at faster speeds than the Gordo is thrown. Thanks to the amount of endlag Gordo has, the it can be reflected and hit Dedede back before he even has time to react.

I think King Dedede is a decent character, however. I've gone by the King Dedede Discord server yesterday and asked what tier placement they thought he was. One person said high mid-tier, but others felt this person was being too optimistic. Still, the rest agreed that King Dedede was at least mid-tier. That's pretty good. I think Samus is in the same spot, and some think she's high mid-tier. Well, anyway, my biggest issue with Gordo is how often it hits me. It lingers out and hits me more often than Charge Shot hits King Dedede. I think that while the amount of frames is high for a projectile, the fact that it can linger and be caught and spat back at the opponent is what greatly helps King Dedede.

Being heavy is what keeps Dedede from being one of the worst fighters in the game. For a character with some of the slowest frame data and movement speeds overall (the slowest airspeed in the game) as well as one of the largest hurtboxes, being heavy helps is necessary since he gets hit by so many attacks. Having multiple jumps is compensation (albeit poor compensation) for having the worst airspeed in the game, as well as reflects his canon ability to jump infinitely in Kirby games.

When you put that way, I can see why King Dedede has these perks. It makes me appreciate King Dedede players more.

As a Dedede main it took me a long time to learn the Dark/Samus matchup so I can give you some advice.

• If the Dedede player is spamming gordos a lot, stay back and hit them with super missiles. They will always get reflected and more times than not hit him back. Do not challenge Dedede in the air since there it may be a bait so get hit by Gordo or another attack. Instead try to read a Gordo and punish them before they have time to react.
• On the other hand, if they are playing a rushdown strategy as Dedede, don't rely so heavily on projectiles and instead beat him using faster aerials. If they are simply running towards you hoping to grab or use a grounded move, surprise them by grabbing them with your tether or an aerial approach instead of retreating. An aggressive Dedede will be less likely to try to bait a bad approach, so if they run (or fly) toward you it may be better to counter their approach with f-air, n-air, or u-air before they get the change to attack.
• Another way to beat rushed approaches is to simply do some light camping on platforms, since there's almostnothing Dedede can do against camping. Stalling with down B, spacing with f-air and Super Missile, etc. are all good ways to abuse Dedede's slow speed and large hurtbox.
• Dedede has one of the most linear recoveries in the game. A lot of Dededes will try to recover deep since he has a super armor recovery with a nice vertical range. Since the Samuses have a nice hitbox size on d-air, try spiking them (or getting a stage spike with another aerial) if they're hovering below the stage--after all, Dedede has one of the largest hurtboxes in all of Smash.
• Only use Charge Shot when you read a Gordo to reflect it before Dedede has time to react or when they're stalling in the air. NEVER use Charge Shot in close quarters or when they're far enough away to inhale it. Use it as a surprise tool.

That's as much as I know about the matchup since there aren't that many Samuses online. I hope this helps!

This helps a lot. It's not common for me to encounter King Dedede and lose to him, but a particular King Dedede named Rob has defeated me three different times. He managed to three-stock me the first time and two-stocked me yesterday. That's impressive or sad. Haha! But I definitely appreciate the help. I wonder why Samus isn't common online, at least for you. I live in the west coast, so I encounter Samus/Dark Samus from time to time. I have to assert my dominance in dittos. Haha! Only very few have defeated me in dittos, and I've been in contact with them. I can understand that some people might not want to reveal things about their mains, but at the same time, I think it helps the meta for everyone. You cannot improve if you don't know how to deal with your opponent. Your opponent cannot improve, either, unless he/she learns as well.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

I heavily disagree with the assessment on Gordos. They are not meant to be spammed like other projectiles and calling it the "absolute worst projectile in the game" is terribly misinformed. It's one of the strongest zoning tools during advantage in the game, and you are heavily downplaying these assets by exaggerating its start and end lag. If you got hit in the face by reflected Gordo, that's on you for throwing it out at an unsafe distance. Dedede shouldn't be tossing them in an unfavorable position. His frame data isn't that terrible either because most of his moves come out at a decent speed.

Regarding the Samus matchup, if a Dedede spams Gordos they don't know what they are doing and deserve to get punished for it. And Samus can't camp as well as you think; there are other characters who can play that role better than her like Megaman and Villager.

I find hard to believe that these words came from Dedede mains. I've seen what Dedede can do at high level, so am I the only one here who thinks he is fine and that he doesn't need any buffs? I have this crazy theory that perhaps some Dedede mains, driven by their bias, keep saying that he is trash because they want their character to be broken ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ . I don't like it because it spreads misinformation.

Gordos might not be the worst projectile in the game (I forgot about Clown Cannon when I made that post) but they're far from the best. I disagree that Dedede "isn't hurting for buffs" and I feel like he could use several improvements to his neutral game options to avoid having to retreat every time his advantage options don't go exactly as planned. Namely, a small airspeed buff to make his recovery less linear and some landing lag off his f-air so it's more reliable as a spacing option than it is simply as a bread and butter d-throw to f-air tool. A buff to the amount of damage Gordo needs to take in order to be reflected would also be nice but for whatever reason that's a hot button topic so I won't go into it.

My original post never suggested that Dedede was bad in any way. I simply said that being heavy and having multiple jumps prevents that from happening. He isn't unviable and his improvements from Smash 4 really show when he appears in tournaments. There was even a Dedede player in EVO top 50, which is a miracle for a fighter most top players consider a mid tier at best. I never said he was bad and I never suggested game breaking buffs to him either. Your passive-aggressive accusation that "some Dedede players" are plotting to make him broken and overpowered by complaining that he needs buffs certainly belongs in this thread since it's one of the silliest arguments I've ever seen. It's insulting to see how someone would claim that I'm a misguided and biased person trying to make his main broken simply because I said he wasn't the best character. My original post contained no suggestions for buffs at all, you twisted my words to make it sound like I was hoping for some game-breaking patch to Dedede.

 

[RealPokeFan11]

Just saw this one in RTC.

"Crash can't get in because his moves are all shared by other fighters, and he has nothing unique!"

Uhh... what?

 

[Perkilator]

Just saw this one in RTC.

"Crash can't get in because his moves are all shared by other fighters, and he has nothing unique!"

Uhh... what?

Let me guess. Ornl?

 

[Deleted member]

One-off abilities aren't unprecedented, but a move better represents the character if it's present in more than one of their mainline games.

The gist of my comment was that its ridiculous that an ability needs to appear in more than one game to be canon. Obviously iconic moves comes before abilities that abilities that appeared once. Otherwise were left with characters like Wario whos now a gross biker who poops his pants all day.

 

[Xelrog]

The gist of my comment was that its ridiculous that an ability needs to appear in more than one game to be canon. Obviously iconic moves comes before abilities that abilities that appeared once. Otherwise were left with characters like Wario whos now a gross biker who poops his pants all day.

Agreed on that.

Just saw this one in RTC.

"Crash can't get in because his moves are all shared by other fighters, and he has nothing unique!"

Uhh... what?

It won't stop him from getting in, but yes, Crash has very little interesting moveset potential. I'm a big Crash fan but I have no delusions about that fact.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Just a quick thing to note; don't mention other users'(from this site, I mean. This includes banned members) arguments on here. We can generally tell you are doing even if you're being vague. Try to keep it off-site references at best(and don't link to the off-site stuff).

The idea is this isn't meant to be a rant thread in itself. It's meant to look at arguments you've seen and discuss the issues with them. A lot of this has become closer to making potshots at other users than proper discussion. Let's get back on-track.

 

[Dee Dude]

“I don’t want Crash in the pass because of too many dead platformer mascots and Banjo already fills that niche!”

....Are you serious right now?
After all the constant complaints and defense I’ve seen for anime swordfighters, we’ve gotten two JRPG characters so while Smash 4 had a total of 3 with 5 in the count of humanoid characters and for once Banjo is finally a fresh breath of air since Smash 4 DLC had zero cartoony newcomers and yet somewhow if Crash gets added, people are actually gonna complain about that while justifying both Hero and Joker?

You say you don’t want Crash/won’t happen so there can be genre variety yet if someone like Byleth, 2B, or Lloyd got in, that’d be a completely different story and people would defend it by saying there’s 70 characters or something.

“DQ & Persona both have different demographics while Banjo & Crash appeal to the same.”

Ok...except no? It doesn’t change the fact that Persona & DQ were both niche (In the West anyway for DQ) JPRG titles in the market that are added in Smash for a bigger push.

The only thing Banjo-Kazooie & Crash Bandicoot have in common are being iconic late 90s cartoon animal platformers but their gameplay aspects differ greatly.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Gordos might not be the worst projectile in the game (I forgot about Clown Cannon when I made that post) but they're far from the best. I disagree that Dedede "isn't hurting for buffs" and I feel like he could use several improvements to his neutral game options to avoid having to retreat every time his advantage options don't go exactly as planned. Namely, a small airspeed buff to make his recovery less linear and some landing lag off his f-air so it's more reliable as a spacing option than it is simply as a bread and butter d-throw to f-air tool. A buff to the amount of damage Gordo needs to take in order to be reflected would also be nice but for whatever reason that's a hot button topic so I won't go into it.

My original post never suggested that Dedede was bad in any way. I simply said that being heavy and having multiple jumps prevents that from happening. He isn't unviable and his improvements from Smash 4 really show when he appears in tournaments. There was even a Dedede player in EVO top 50, which is a miracle for a fighter most top players consider a mid tier at best. I never said he was bad and I never suggested game breaking buffs to him either. Your passive-aggressive accusation that "some Dedede players" are plotting to make him broken and overpowered by complaining that he needs buffs certainly belongs in this thread since it's one of the silliest arguments I've ever seen. It's insulting to see how someone would claim that I'm a misguided and biased person trying to make his main broken simply because I said he wasn't the best character. My original post contained no suggestions for buffs at all, you twisted my words to make it sound like I was hoping for some game-breaking patch to Dedede.

Don't take my "accusation" of DDD players wanting their character to be broken that seriously, I was just humoredly pondering out loud since I was reminded of an anecdote at the time of writing. I also wasn't referring to you specifically. Yes, I know it's my fault for not being clear in my intent and because of my wording, so I can't blame anyone for interpreting it the way they did. I didn't mean to twist your words.

I also feel that Dedede is fine in the landing lag department. His Fair is still pretty useful as an spacing option despite its current landing lag and I would be wary of decreasing it. The airspeed buff that you mentioned I could just take it or leave it; I don't see it as very necessary but I'm not opposed to such a quality of life change. I still keep my stance on Gordos because I think that people seem to treat them as a spammable projectile when it's meant to be an excellent trapping tool. If there has to be a percent increase, I would say that increasing the threshold to 3% would be acceptable (I've always told my brother they should increase it to 50%, as he hates fighting Dedede).

I also payed attention to Dedede in the EVO and was glad to hear about it. I've also enjoyed seeing Geki body Leffen at that tournament, and Mike defeating FOW in a very hype match.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Alright, here's one EVERYBODY can agree on.

"The Smash community is toxic/evil/sexist/whatever because this/that/something happened."

For those of you who don't know it has been one hell of a summer for the Smash community. Since June we've been dealing with all sorts of issues that I won't get into for obvious reasons, but to save everyone hours of google searching the drama mainly consisted of fallouts between top players, cyberbullying, and both fake and real suicides (everyone has probably heard about Etika, rest in peace). Several top players have either been banned form tournaments or quit altogether. Most of these issues involved toxic interactions online, usually in DM's or internet hate.

After some of these events happened, people online and in some media criticized the Smash community (and sometimes the gaming community as a whole) for what went down. People said that the Smash community was toxic, sexist, and full of creeps and racists. A few people have even invoked or referred to Gamergate, another internet controversy from a few years ago that I will not discuss for obvious reasons. Every week there was something new going on that claimed attention, leading people to come to the "conclusion" that our community was evil in some way.

The Smash community is millions strong. It's incredibly ignorant to suggest that the entire fanbase of one of the world's largest current games all falls under the category of toxic and evil just because a few people did wrong things over the course of the summer. It's claiming every Smasher is guilty by association which is unfair and inaccurate.

I once saw someone on Reddit say that the entire community was at fault because it was our "responsibility" to "police" ourselves. This person suggested that because of the actions of a few people, over 10 million people were at fault. It's impossible for an entire community to "police" itself when most of the drama that took place over the weekend happened in DM's or other platforms online where few people could actually respond in a reasonable amount of time. As for the cyberbullying issues, people did rush to the defense of the victims when hate began to show up on the internet. So it's completely unreasonable and unfair to blame the entire community for something only very few people (in comparison) did.

I can't believe anyone would ever point fingers at this community as if we've all done something wrong when things like this happen in almost every fanbase--unless the accusers were simply looking for attention, which would then make sense.

 

[BlackInk]

“The heavily nerfed [garbage character] plays well in this one match. This means that Nintendo has done nothing but ‘balance’ this character.”

 

[Perkilator]

Are you guys really considering movesets that would make crash a joker clone

C'mon guys

Please tell me no one actually said this.

 

[Xelrog]

Please tell me no one actually said this.

Can this be a mod? Every character but they're a Joker clone.

Mario's star power meter builds up until he powers up and glows with super star energy.
Kirby's hunger meter grows until he finally eats a super lollipop and gets all sparkly.
Link's magic meter rises until he's able to summon the Great Fairy to boost his power.

 

[Brindor]

Hate the whole arguments that have come and went over the years when people start making made up """""""""""rules""""""""'''' about the roster that big Daddy Sakurai steps on and crushes with every new Smash game that comes out.
It's like the receding hairline of petty arguments, every time Sakurai breaks a """rule""" they retreat back to another made up """rule""" to start all over again.
I'll show you what I mean.

>There will never be a 3rd party character in Smash ever!
Snake happens.

>Ok well, Sonic will never be in Smash ever!
Sonic happens.
>Megaman will never be in Smash because Capcom doesn't care about the franchise anymore!
Megaman waltzes in.
>Pac Man will never be in Smash because...reasons
Pac Man gets in.
>Characters who were cut in previous games won't come back!
Mewtwo, Lucas and Roy all return
>A 3rd party can never get more than one rep because this is mainly a Nintendo crossover game.
Ryu kicks in the door.
>Smash will never have a character from a game that has never been on Nintendo consoles!
Cloud shocks the world (some one off cameo in a KH DS game doesn't count).
>Well Smash will never a character from a M rated series in it because this is a T rated game!
Bayonetta gets wicked
>Ridleys too big!
Ridley hits the big time.
>King K Rool's irrelevant!
King K Rool jumps aboard.
>3rd parties can never have more than 1 character from a series in Smash because....?
Ken gets in.
>There will never be a character from Persona in Smash because Persona is seen a Playstation series and not a Nintendo one! ;( (I mean Cloud and Snake broke this one years ago but...)
Joker steals the spotlight
>Banjo and Kazooie will NEVER EVER EVER get into Smash because a) it's a Western game series b) it's owned by a rival console manufacturer (Microsoft) and c) it's a dead irrelevant franchise that will never see the light of day again!

>Well Cooking Mama will never get into Smash because Smash is only for big third parties like SEGA or Square Enix or Namco or Konami or Microsoft!
S O O N

 

[Morgana J. Cat]

"Anyone fits in Smash Brothers."

 

[Perkilator]

Who else remembers the chair theory? Or the Spetember 2018 Direct's earthquake delay hinting at Isaac?