What’s the silliest Smash argument you’ve heard? - Read OP

[JiggyNinja]

There was nothing wrong with clones in Melee and there's nothing wrong with Echoes now.

Let's add this to the "silly arguments" pile.

Melee's clones where nowhere near as similar as Ultimate's Echoes. Roy and Marth changed a lot more than just the sword's sweetspot. Link and Young Link had noticeably different weight, speed, and power. Fox and Falco differed in numerous ways, some more noticeable than others.

Compared to that, how much difference is there between Samus and Dark Samus? Simon and Richter? Pit and Dark Pit? PEach and Daisy?

Do not compare Ultimate's Echoes to Melee's. They aren't even close.

 

[Shadowwolflink]

Let's add this to the "silly arguments" pile.

Melee's clones where nowhere near as similar as Ultimate's Echoes. Roy and Marth changed a lot more than just the sword's sweetspot. Link and Young Link had noticeably different weight, speed, and power. Fox and Falco differed in numerous ways, some more noticeable than others.

Compared to that, how much difference is there between Samus and Dark Samus? Simon and Richter? Pit and Dark Pit? PEach and Daisy?

Do not compare Ultimate's Echoes to Melee's. They aren't even close.

I never said they were the same, I said there's nothing wrong with either of them.

Echo haters have to be the weirdest people in the Smash community, they don't take anything away from the game, they're just added bonus for fans of characters who otherwise wouldn't get in, but "muh real characters."

 

[Deleted member]

I never said they were the same, I said there's nothing wrong with either of them.

Echo haters have to be the weirdest people in the Smash community, they don't take anything away from the game, they're just added bonus for fans of characters who otherwise wouldn't get in, but "muh real characters."

And that's subjective. If there is no difference, they should be alts, like Alph and Erdrick. End of story.
And no, the weirdest people will have to be either the pervs or the "deep diggers" (people who use Sakurai breathing to figure out the next DLC fighter)

 

[TheCJBrine]

I don’t mind echoes, and I actually like them, as they feel like a bonus with characters we wouldn’t have gotten otherwise.

However, I think that’s close to something Sakurai said, and I can understand fans of these characters wanting them to be unique, especially since some of them actually do have their own moves and abilities or could use other things, like Dark Samus.

They’re definitely better than alts, at least, because then they definitely wouldn’t be represented well due to different personalities. I guess that didn’t stop them from horribly representing Olimar and Alph, though.

 

[Deleted member]

they definitely wouldn’t be represented well due to different personalities.

It doesn't matter. If taunts and voices are changeable, that's the most I need.

 

[TheCJBrine]

It doesn't matter. If taunts and voices are changeable, that's the most I need.

And then there’s Olimar and Alph whom are well-developed with their own voices yet they get nothing but made-up taunts and Alph’s soulless stare.

 

[R-senpai]

I might be a little biased, but...

The "Too many Fire Emblem characters/reps" argument doesn't really hold up all that well. Super Smash Bros. is a game about Nintendo's All-Stars (and then some). If more people happen to like Fire Emblem's characters more than they do with say, the Donkey Kong or Kirby series, then it's only natural that there would be more FE characters than the recently mentioned.

Same goes for the "Too many swordfighters" argument. There's no such thing as "representatives" in the Super Smash Bros. series, so there's really no need to include a random no-name lance user for the sake of variety. Relevance is important, as is popularity.

Think we're at a definitive number now, if they want to add new ones I'd rather them replace an old one

 

[Pokelego999]

My own opinion on Echoes is that they are fine, they help us get more for less. Like, they take less time to make and everything. It allows more fighters, what we want, to get in alongside characters that have the work put into them. Besides, a few characters I can't see outside this status (Ken, Lucina, Daisy, Dark Pit, etc.), but fighters like Dark Samus that could have more diversity are the few I consider "unfit". On top of that, many characters like Daisy and Dark Pit could be fleshed out with a little more aesthetic difference, but I feel this is good for smash. As stated, we get more for less.

 

[Deleted member]

Stop attacking me. I didn't say echoes are bad, most of them(excluding the ones with their own Final Smashes) might as well be alts anyways.

 

[Oddball]

That makes no sense. MORE echoes means LESS actual characters, I want those echoes to be their own thing. If you couldn't intuit that then that's your issue.

More characters means more characters.

You don't get more characters by taking out echoes. The choice isn't Dark Pit or Crash Bandicoot. It's Dark Pit or no Dark Pit.

And Having Dr. Mario or Lucina gives you more characters than NOT having Dr. Mario or Lucina.

It's basic math, man.

 

[Pokelego999]

Stop attacking me. I didn't say echoes are bad, most of them(excluding the ones with their own Final Smashes) might as well be alts anyways.

We're not attacking you we are just stating what we think on the matter

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

My own opinion on Echoes is that they are fine, they help us get more for less. Like, they take less time to make and everything. It allows more fighters, what we want, to get in alongside characters that have the work put into them. Besides, a few characters I can't see outside this status (Ken, Lucina, Daisy, Dark Pit, etc.), but fighters like Dark Samus that could have more diversity are the few I consider "unfit". On top of that, many characters like Daisy and Dark Pit could be fleshed out with a little more aesthetic difference, but I feel this is good for smash. As stated, we get more for less.

Funny thing is that Daisy is pretty much all aesthetics. Dark Pit wishes he had differences like that. On the other hand, he has more tangible gameplay differences than Daisy does, so it kinda works out. XD

Anyway, I'm in the "echoes are just more characters. Nothing wrong with them whatsoever. More is more. Less is less." I can fully get wanting some to be a bit more than an Echo. For many reasons too. I am surprised Alph isn't one, though at least him working exactly like Olimar makes sense too. But Pikmin are also a key focus of the moveset, and the lack of any new ones besides Rock Pikmin could be part of why he's just an alt. Which seems kind of pointless to me when it'd still be more than Daisy, really. If anything, you could still have some other Captains as alts, or add a new one altogether(even if Alph is still a costume in that case). Pikmin is a sweet franchise that can do a bit better. I hope we get another one and more unique Pikmin types, if only cause that gives a better chance for another character.

That said, an Echo with zero gameplay differences for the normal moveset can easily get away with just taunt/idle/animation changes and other aesthetic things. Since it literally affects your hurtbox, which is still a type of gampley change in the context of Smash, it's all you need. That's pretty much what Daisy is, the tiniest difference(which, well, is enough).

 

[Shadowwolflink]

More characters means more characters.

You don't get more characters by taking out echoes. The choice isn't Dark Pit or Crash Bandicoot. It's Dark Pit or no Dark Pit.

And Having Dr. Mario or Lucina gives you more characters than NOT having Dr. Mario or Lucina.

It's basic math, man.

I don't know you, but I love you.

I don't get what's so hard to understand about this. Echoes aren't "taking up slots." It's the same arguments that happen every game, like with Melee Sakurai made the mistake of mentioning that he had wanted to add Pit, Wario, and Dedede, so then people worked themselves up into a frenzy because "Sakurai wasted time on clones when he could have been making a 'real character' like Decade."

Sakurai has stated multiple times that clones/Echoes take so much less time to develop than other characters, to the point that, I think he said all of the clones in Melee only took a fraction of the time that it would have taken to make one character from scratch.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't know you, but I love you.

I don't get what's so hard to understand about this. Echoes aren't "taking up slots." It's the same arguments that happen every game, like with Melee Sakurai made the mistake of mentioning that he had wanted to add Pit, Wario, and Dedede, so then people worked themselves up into a frenzy because "Sakurai wasted time on clones when he could have been making a 'real character' like Decade."

Sakurai has stated multiple times that clones/Echoes take so much less time to develop than other characters, to the point that, I think he said all of the clones in Melee only took a fraction of the time that it would have taken to make one character from scratch.

It's also worth noting that Echoes take less time than clones like Ganondorf(Brawl-upwards) because of less animations/hitboxes, less unique moves, etc. Generally, Echoes are super easy to do in comparison than a more normal clone(albeit, Dr. Mario in Melee is about as clone as you can get to an Echo in Ultimate. Which make sit funny cause he has more differences than most Echoes since he came back in 4 as well). Even then, Ken makes it pretty difficult to say exactly what the rules are on Echoes beyond "same bodyshape" as is. Maybe someday Sakurai will clear it up. I did hear that Ken is meant to be more of an exception to the idea that Echoes are nearly identical to their counterpart in gameplay, with very small changes at most. ...I honestly have never gotten that cited, though to be fair, that does make a lot of sense since Ken is seriously the only Echo with huge changes overall in gameplay. The most was one or two moves, and the usual aesthetics/taunts/idles/animations in general which can be widely different(along with the Final Smash itself not always being the same).

 

[Deleted member]

More characters means more characters.

You don't get more characters by taking out echoes. The choice isn't Dark Pit or Crash Bandicoot. It's Dark Pit or no Dark Pit.

And Having Dr. Mario or Lucina gives you more characters than NOT having Dr. Mario or Lucina.

It's basic math, man.

This argument is full of fallacies I'm not even going to address because the argument ended long ago anyways. Sakurai could piss in a glass and you'd call it pina colada.

 

[Porygon2]

Let's add this to the "silly arguments" pile.

Melee's clones where nowhere near as similar as Ultimate's Echoes. Roy and Marth changed a lot more than just the sword's sweetspot. Link and Young Link had noticeably different weight, speed, and power. Fox and Falco differed in numerous ways, some more noticeable than others.

Compared to that, how much difference is there between Samus and Dark Samus? Simon and Richter? Pit and Dark Pit? PEach and Daisy?

Do not compare Ultimate's Echoes to Melee's. They aren't even close.

To be fair, they shouldn't be compared because they've never been officially acquainted. The disappoint with “clones” comes from expecting wholly different characters. There’s no such expectation with echos, though I do wish Sakurai was more consistent in his approach. As a big Metroid buff for example, I love the detail put into Dark Samus, but can’t help but feel bummed when I see how minimal her changes are in comparison to Ken/Ryu. – especially considering how, as an eldritch alien monstrosity, her differences from Samus should be far more pronounced than those of the latter two.

IMO, echos would function best as something like “attribute variants”, i.e. they all differ in appearance, speed, weight, and power, but are functionally the same in other categories. For example, I’d transpose Ganondorf's moves (sans sword) onto a Black Shadow echo, and have a new, unique Ganondorf fighter. Don't even get me started on how I'd fix the Zero Suit Samus mess.

 

[Lenidem]

To be the devil's avocate... I think the argument 'they can be fleshed out in a next game' itself is very silly. Yes, sure, the can. But they didn't need to appear as Echoes before.

 

[Shadowwolflink]

This argument is full of fallacies I'm not even going to address because the argument ended long ago anyways. Sakurai could piss in a glass and you'd call it pina colada.

He could give you a million dollars and you'd say it isn't enough.

You wanna talk "fallacies," but then run away from the discussion because "the argument ended long ago" on an internet forum... Less than 24 hours from the first post...

 

[Deleted member]

You wanna talk "fallacies," but then run away from the discussion because "the argument ended long ago" on an internet forum... Less than 24 hours from the first post...

I don't want to hear anything about "running away" from you. Someone else walked into the discussion and I conversed with him after YOU refused to respond to my own argument, and then you walked in out of nowhere when that Captain N guy defended you.

He could give you a million dollars and you'd say it isn't enough.

No I would not. I don't need money from him. I very clearly explained my side and you keep distorting it because you're triggered.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

The argument that removing the clones/echoes will do much of anything but remove content doesn't make a lot of sense. That's just a basic plain fact. Of course, if you'd rather have lesser content than have content you dislike, that makes sense too. Some hate Mii costumes cause it means their character might not be playable and find it as an insult(the insult thing is pretty silly in itself. They're literally costumes as a consolation prize for the characters who couldn't be playable. Some are just fun costumes for already playable characters too. Of course, it makes sense not to like it as much as playable either. Which is a different thing from seeing it as an insult too. Especially as Sakurai does not do these things in order to make it worse for the fans).

The thing about clones/echoes is that they cannot take the spot of highly unique characters. One takes more work than the other. That's the key point a lot are saying too. Ganondorf absolutely takes less time than, say, R.O.B. If you remove a clone, you can only replace them at most with another character clone to not make the workload more, or you can put in possibly two echoes(who may take less time than a regular clone), and that's a maybe. Now, some features maybe could be in if it requires an equal amount or less workload. But generally features are separate work anyway, as it's a large team per each game.

 

[Oddball]

I don't want to hear anything about "running away" from you. Someone else walked into the discussion and I conversed with him after YOU refused to respond to my own argument, and then you walked in out of nowhere when that Captain N guy defended you.

You're posting on an open forum. There is no walking in or our of the conversation. It's there for anyone to reply to when they choose.

No I would not. I don't need money from him. I very clearly explained my side and you keep distorting it because you're triggered.

You can say you've explained your side, but 4 - 1 doesn't equal 5 no matter how you want to do the math.

Also, saying that somebody is "triggered" is about the worst excuse for dismissing what somebody has to say that you can use.

 

[Deleted member]

There is no walking in or our of the conversation. It's there for anyone to reply to when they choose.

You missed my point.

but 4 - 1 doesn't equal 5 no matter how you want to do the math.

That is irrelevant.

Also, saying that somebody is "triggered" is about the worst excuse for dismissing what somebody has to say that you can use.

The argument that removing the clones/echoes will do much of anything but remove content doesn't make a lot of sense. That's just a basic plain fact. Of course, if you'd rather have lesser content than context you dislike, that makes sense too. Some hate Mii costumes cause it means their character might not be playable and find it as an insult(the insult thing is pretty silly in itself. They're literally costumes as a consolation prize for the characters who couldn't be playable. Some are just fun costumes for already playable characters too. Of course, it makes sense not to like it as much as playable either. Which is a different thing from seeing it as an insult too. Especially as Sakurai does not do these things in order to make it worse for the fans).

The thing about clones/echoes is that they cannot take the spot of highly unique characters. One takes more work than the other. That's the key point a lot are saying too. Ganondorf absolutely takes less time than, say, R.O.B. If you remove a clone, you can only replace them at most with another character clone to not make the workload more, or you can put in possibly two echoes(who may take less time than a regular clone), and that's a maybe. Now, some features maybe could be in if it requires an equal amount or less workload. But generally features are separate work anyway, as it's a large team per each game.

K

 

[Shadowwolflink]

I don't want to hear anything about "running away" from you. Someone else walked into the discussion and I conversed with him after YOU refused to respond to my own argument, and then you walked in out of nowhere when that Captain N guy defended you.

No I would not. I don't need money from him. I very clearly explained my side and you keep distorting it because you're triggered.

I have a job. What do you want me to do, drop real life priorities for your petty ****?

 

[Deleted member]

I have a job. What do you want me to do, drop real life priorities for your petty ****?

YOU were the one who came after ME.
If you have a job, why don't you do it instead of barking at strangers because they want proper fighters instead of copy+pastes?

 

[Xelrog]

This argument is full of fallacies I'm not even going to address because the argument ended long ago anyways. Sakurai could piss in a glass and you'd call it pina colada.

If you're not going to address the opinion then don't respond to it.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Echoes are echoes. Not having echoes would not suddenly open up the spot for a more developed characters.
The same applies for assist trophies and non-fighter cameos. If a character isn't an assist/not in another fighter's moveset that does not increase their chance of being in the game whatsoever.
Why is this so hard for some people to understand.

Anyway, let's take a hard left turn on the current subject.
Recently my friend told me that Terry was an "obscure" character who more or less wasted a spot and I had to explain to him that while SNK fighting games might not be as hot a sauce where we live, those games (and Terry as a character) are way bigger in Latin America and other areas of the world. Kind of reinforces the argument: "Just because you don't know much about a character doesn't mean they're obscure or wasteful in any way."

 

[Shadowwolflink]

YOU were the one who came after ME.
If you have a job, why don't you do it instead of barking at strangers because they want proper fighters instead of copy+pastes?

I never "came after you" and there was no "barking," I told you there was nothing wrong with Echoes (there still isn't btw) then you got passive aggressive while I tried to explain to you why Echoes exist and why they don't take away from the number of "real" fighters, which you ignored every single time because it doesn't fit the narrative you want to complain about.

Then you called me "triggered" in the exact same comment where you essentially went "wah wah! You took to long to to reply to me!" and then in the next message essentially said "don't reply to me." You're either confused, a troll, or just awful.

Also, when you're old enough to have a job you'll figure out what breaks and lunch breaks are. They're very similar to recess.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

YOU were the one who came after ME.
If you have a job, why don't you do it instead of barking at strangers because they want proper fighters instead of copy+pastes?

Word of advice buddy: If you can't handle your viewpoint being challenged on the internet, you should reconsider before posting it or at least know when to walk away without giving flimsy excuses. No one is attacking you, they are discussing your point for being fallacious, which it is. It's not healthy to get defensive when someone questions your argument because that will happen to you in real life. Elaborate on your stance rather than trying to call the other party delusional and expecting them to take your word for granted.

You also claim that echoes take spots from other characters when it has been shown that is not the case. There are plenty of interviews on the internet with Sakurai explaining the process of creating characters, and clones in fighting games are known to be included due to being easy to make. The absence of clones is not going to translate into more unique fighters. Try also looking for information in regards to game design.

This argument is full of fallacies I'm not even going to address because the argument ended long ago anyways. Sakurai could piss in a glass and you'd call it pina colada

This roughly translates to: "I'm unable to address the argument because I lack the necessary information and knowledge at hand, so I'll dismiss it in a desperate attempt to save face".

 

[Deleted member]

You also claim that echoes take spots from other characters when it has been shown that is not the case. There are plenty of interviews on the internet with Sakurai explaining the process of creating characters, and clones in fighting games are known to be included due to being easy to make. The absence of clones is not going to translate into more unique fighters. Try also looking for information in regards to game design.

I told you there was nothing wrong with Echoes (there still isn't btw) then you got passive aggressive while I tried to explain to you why Echoes exist and why they don't take away from the number of "real" fighters

Echoes are echoes. Not having echoes would not suddenly open up the spot for a more developed characters.
The same applies for assist trophies and non-fighter cameos. If a character isn't an assist/not in another fighter's moveset that does not increase their chance of being in the game whatsoever.
Why is this so hard for some people to understand.

Can you people not get enough of that strawman? Why are you pretending I'm still disagreeing?

when you're old enough to have a job you'll figure out what breaks and lunch breaks are. They're very similar to recess.

This is just piggish.

 

[Oddball]

Why are you pretending I'm still disagreeing?

So you're admitting you were wrong now. That's all anybody ever wanted.

 

[Deleted member]

So you're admitting you were wrong now. That's all anybody ever wanted.

Those two things have no relevance to each other. But it doesn't matter, because you probably came here to bait me. Please ignore me and do us both a favor. Echoes are copy+pastes "uLtImAtE" fighters don't need, and that's a fact.

 

[Lenidem]

Can we move on, please? I keep receiving notifications for this topic and it's always about Echoes...

 

[Sebas22]

This one is a classic, probably the silliest of all arguments, but I saw someone post it recently: "Smash is not a real fighting game". It really is the king of silly arguments.

 

[Deleted member]

You're right. At least my original comment was relevant to the post, though.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Here's one that's being thrown around lately:

"X is from too recent of a game, therefore they can't be in Smash."

I don't know if this has been pointed out on this thread earlier, but that's a fan rule that games need to be a certain age before getting characters in Smash. There is no definite age people use, they just say "well the game is too young anyway" as a strawman. Being from a new game didn't stop from getting in.

 

[Deleted member]

"Smash is not a real fighting game".

That's more of a personal opinion than a legitimate argument. And they're not wrong. Does boxing have floating platforms where you can double jump and send people flying with a headbutt?

 

[Shadowwolflink]

So you're admitting you were wrong now. That's all anybody ever wanted.

I'm pretty sure he either doesn't know what he's saying or he's just an awful troll. First he says is dislike for Echoes is an opinion, then he says he's not disagreeing with anyone, then he says it's a "fact" that Ultimate doesn't "need" Echoes.

 

[Sebas22]

That's more of a personal opinion than a legitimate argument. And they're not wrong. Does boxing have floating platforms where you can double jump and send people flying with a headbutt?

Smash is definitely not a traditional fighting game, but it is a fighting game nonetheless.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm pretty sure he either doesn't know what he's saying or he's just an awful troll. First he says is dislike for Echoes is an opinion, then he says he's not disagreeing with anyone, then he says it's a "fact" that Ultimate doesn't "need" Echoes.

Move on already. You've assumed I'm a kid and a troll only because you disagree with my argument, and continue to distort it after I stopped. Shut the hell up.

it is a fighting game nonetheless.

Then MK Armageddon is a racing game and a strategy game. Name any other game like Smash as well-known as Tekken or afore mentioned.

 

[Shadowwolflink]

Move on already. You've assumed I'm a kid and a troll only because you disagree with my argument, and continue to distort it after I stopped. Shut the hell up.

No, I've assumed that you're a kid or a troll because you're acting childish, presenting your opinions as "facts", and throwing around words like fallacy and strawman seemingly without knowing what they actually mean.

That's more of a personal opinion than a legitimate argument. And they're not wrong. Does boxing have floating platforms where you can double jump and send people flying with a headbutt?

Does Boxing have undead people, magic powers, and superheroes? No, so then obviously Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, and just about any popular fighting game isn't a real fighting game.