Weekly Character Discussion: Sonic

[Tenki]

They should let SonicX>9000 or me in after that rubbish.
It's just sad to see that they did no research at all in our boards, despite us having a lot of legit good information. Which they really should've considering none of them main him/know anything about him.
And to say they didn't care enough to do it properly, well that's not really a good enough excuse.

It's just annoying, and really unprofessional.

Some of them DO know alot of information about Sonic.

All their knowledge about Sonic comes from playing against Sonics. Whether it's playing against Mr. 3000, Dark Sonic, Puffball, or even me. What ever facet they saw is what they know about.

Explore the character options? That fire was burnt out long ago after the Snake and Metaknight matchup discussions. Back when people were still gauging out to see which characters would be amazing, they explored and discussed as they saw fit.

Come on, we have a tier list and we know which characters are good and bad. Why would they want to spend time exploring/discussing options of a character that:
1) Sucks.
2) Almost noone uses competitively.
3) They will most likely not run into a competent main of.

It's completely understandable.

What were you expecting from the SBR? A far more advanced version of the metagame discussion concerning Sonic? Information that we don't know about?

SP says they couldn't be bothered to go into detail and didn't care in general but it looks to me like they were serious. No wonder they were looking for applications the other day.

They better let SonicX580 in...

I totally agree.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I am sorry but this is one of the most disgusting things i have seen.
@Sp: you're saying you do not see good Sonic's and hence have little reason to do a serious discussion? Does this not also ignore the tournament results where Sonic has been consistently placing well above where you placed him in the tier list? What reasoning is that? That's terrible reasoning. if you are evaluate Aa characters potential then evaluate it, don't give the tired excuse of saying, we can't see it therefore it is not there. Considering where you have Bowser and Luigi and several other character who do not perform even half as well, I would have to say its contradictory.

@OS: Stop bringing up Dtilt spam. It doesn't work. Sonic can Ftlt you in the face, Fsmash while you perform it without him being hit as with his Fsmash and Bair. Mind you Tenki said that you only managed to land your Dtilts repeatedly in LM because the pillars slowed him down enough so that you can do it. Considering he mentioned how he found a way around it that makes that argument poor.

@everyone else: Enough with the tired saying that the Sonic have to prove that Sonic is better than you state he is. YOUR tier list has him listed as the fifth worst character in the game. Tournament rankings have him listed on average of 22. Even more astounding is that the most recent rankings have him at 18. I highly doubt that Sonic users have not been showing his capabilities. So no, saying that no good sonics have showed what he can do is false, as is the statement saying that bad sonics do the same thing that good Sonics do.

Now as for the actual points worth discussing.
I saw it mntioned earlier that Sonic telegraphs his movements. This is not true. all of Sonic's approaches and behavior is cancelable. None of his approaches are committed. At nearly all points he can cancel the apprach and go into another and from that, cancel into another option.
Considering the capability for Sonic to do such behavior, saying he is predictable does not hold much weight.
What i do agree si that Sonic does not have many RELIABLE options.
MK can Dilt, Ftilt,F air with little risk the can abuse it repeatedly befoer the opponent can punish him. in Sonic on the other hand, cannot.
The issue isn't priority (since we know for a fact that he does not have as bad priority as is often said.) as is more attack speed. He leaves holes in his attacks such as Nair, Uair, Dair (uair stays out longer than both Fair and bair apparently). he also has lo w aerial mobility so he cannot necessarily weave in and out like Wario t make up for that attack speed.

There is also the lack of reliable kill moves.
MK does not have that many kill moves either.
The difference is reliability, unlike MK, Sonic has to setup the opponent to a greater degree which makes Ko's hard.
Now while Sonic is capable of making up for this by damage racking, that unreliable kill move hampers him. I'll add moer but i got a test to take. O_O


@tenki; yes. We look to the SBR to provide accurate information regarding smash. Now its understandable that no one plays Sonic often or that he is not top ier. That still does not remove the fact that the information regarding Sonic si there and should be evaluated to provide accurate information. people should not STILL be saying, jab to stop Sonic.
Regardless if a character is top or bottom, still requires discussion as to be as accurate as possible and be informative. I don't care for the IC's much but I do my best to remain as informed as possible so as not to display ignorance and make sure that the evaluation is accurate. It is simple as that.

 

[Jim Morrison]

Now as for the actual points worth discussing.
I saw it mntioned earlier that Sonic telegraphs his movements. This is not true. all of Sonic's approaches and behavior is cancelable. None of his approaches are committed. At nearly all points he can cancel the apprach and go into another and from that, cancel into another option.
Considering the capability for Sonic to do such behavior, saying he is predictable does not hold much weight.
What i do agree si that Sonic does not have many RELIABLE options.
MK can Dilt, Ftilt,F air with little risk the can abuse it repeatedly befoer the opponent can punish him. in Sonic on the other hand, cannot.
The issue isn't priority (since we know for a fact that he does not have as bad priority as is often said.) as is more attack speed. He leaves holes in his attacks such as Nair, Uair, Dair (uair stays out longer than both Fair and bair apparently). he also has lo w aerial mobility so he cannot necessarily weave in and out like Wario t make up for that attack speed.

There is also the lack of reliable kill moves.
MK does not have that many kill moves either.
The difference is reliability, unlike MK, Sonic has to setup the opponent to a greater degree which makes Ko's hard.
Now while Sonic is capable of making up for this by damage racking, that unreliable kill move hampers him. I'll add moer but i got a test to take. O_O

Mah girl, save it for the MK matchup discussion, or tornado/shuttle loop thread.
Lol and don't approach MK, let him approaches. His approaches are so crap against someone who's not spamming projectiles. Just standing scares the **** out of them.

BTW SP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rl44vnqg16U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0I0mLVk04Q
*facepalmed* Sonic is ****. Face it.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Tenki, I did actually expect this kind of thing. Doesn't mean I still can't be slightly annoyed by it. XD

What I would have liked was some serious discussion.
No, not even that, I would have wanted actual factual knowledge, but even that's too much of an ask nowadays.
The majority of what was said in the actual write-up and in the discussion itself is absolutely false, not actually right in any context and could be disproved by anybody who actually knows anything about Sonic and has actually bothered going out and finding things out.

What I would have liked were some real weaknesses. Hey, even some strengths wouldn't go amiss. Sonic isn't all fail.

And if they did know what they were talking about, they were hiding it well. Sure, they've observed and fought against some of the best Sonic's, but that doesn't really mean that they know all the intricacies of the character. The fact that they neglected to mention any of Sonic's main strats (ASC, feints, spinshot) would suggest that they've either shrugged them off as being unimportant (not knowing the characters strats properly), or not knowing how they are implemented properly, or any of the finer details of it (again, a lack of knowledge of the character shows through if this is the case.)

I don't want to say anymore. This topic has gone beyond annoying and it's actually quite amusing now

 

[Kinzer]

Good God, if people are saying that we had it better than some of the other character write-ups, I can't imagine how much fail is in their characters' respective boards.

Where are you SBRs, did we scare you off with our logic?

You people sicken me, the only reason Sonic is so low on the d*** Tier-List now is because most of not all of you cannot or do not want to see Sonic at his maximum potential.

Oh by the way, this is coming from a 16 year old.

 

[Jim Morrison]

LOLOLOL Coming from a 14 year old is worse.

 

[Chis]

They're not much older than you.

 

[Kinzer]

*Hmph*, well, it should be an insult seeing as how if you're old enough to be in college, you should have some sort of intelligence, but apparently there's a bigger gap of lack of it in here moreso than in the entire Sonic boards.

No really, adolescents are suppose to be the ones that rush in to crap and make all the miSteaks and are oblivious to the facts, but dear lord I want to get a second chance to whale on them when they get to Ike. If they say anything about how he is "slow" overall, I'm going to find a can of whoop-a** and open it.

 

[thecatinthehat]

Good God, if people are saying that we had it better than some of the other character write-ups, I can't imagine how much fail is in their characters' respective boards.

Where are you SBRs, did we scare you off with our logic?

You people sicken me, the only reason Sonic is so low on the d*** Tier-List now is because most of not all of you cannot or do not want to see Sonic at his maximum potential.

Oh by the way, this is coming from a 16 year old.

16?

lol I thought you were like 18-19. lololol.

 

[Kinzer]

Amazing, isn't it?

 

[thecatinthehat]

lol. Roooy thought the same for me.

Everyone here is wayyyyyy younger than they seem

 

[ROOOOY!]

We're all young fanboys here ^_^

 

[thecatinthehat]

We're all young fanboys here ^_^

**** I forgot. How old are you?

 

[Napilopez]

Haahah, I feel so old at 17. Gonna be 18 in Decembah.

And I agree with most of what ROY said. And even though I agree Tenki that you can't expect them to know everything, simply put what we saw was a blatant lack of knowledge. Not necesarily on techs(although that wasn't exactly good either...), but just on applications of said techs and potential. In so many other write-ups I see discussion about potential, and I saw really none of that here.

Also, to any SBR members that have played anther, just so you know, he isn't even that good of a Sonic, yet. It's not to insult him, because I respect him tons, especially since he actually listens to our advice. I expect him to become pretty amazing in a while though, hes made tremendous improvement as of late, by actually listening to the advice of players who are overall worse smashers, because we have the actual knowledge of what Sonic can do. He just gotta get rid of SideB SDs and learn to ASC cancel Moar XD.

And yea, if you want to see a better indication of Sonic's "metagame" in vids, Puffball/Espy's or Tenki's recent ones are probably your best options. Sonics play is quite quickly developing I must say, it seems like in just a month, players are making significant improvements. Espy or Tenki didn't seem nearly as good in stuff from a month or 2 ago as they seemed in their most recent ones. Man, I wish we had vids of Puffball's last tourney.

But SBR, Imma repost the puffball vids so you can watch some Sonic pwnage.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8jEtEQDFj08
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jKA5lgGpQIU
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gzdRrh66lco
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oyy1PJnjaUE
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nwlke7Ekv1k

EDIT:
Needs moar TENKI!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkiCPq0GmLs

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I was going to post but Napi said pretty much what I wanted to say. Darn you I say

 

[ROOOOY!]

**** I forgot. How old are you?

16, 17 start of next year.

We should simmer down. We've scared SBR off with angst and reasoning.
THEIR ONE TRUE WEAKNESS!

 

[Kinzer]

Fine...assuming any of them come back to "bother" reading this to argue any of our points...I'll be a good little Hedge...err...I mean Steakling.

 

[thecatinthehat]

Fine...assuming any of them come back to "bother" reading this to argue any of our points...I'll be a good little Hedge...err...I mean Steakling.

That's my word *****.

But....I shall bestow it upon you anyway.

 

[MarKO X]

maybe they still don't care....

 

[Tenki]

Maybe they think that if they say something, they'll have to deal with "OMGFGALKJ! LOL U DUNNO NETHING!" from upset fanboys.

Because I wouldn't wanna post if my (valid) points were ignored or attacked that way either.

>_>

You all sound like the tier list just got announced again.
just ... stop

 

[Phoenix_Dark]

Okay, I think that's enough complaining. I can understand where some of them are coming from. Some don't care to learn the match-up, because it's not always necessary. If you play a good character, and you're just a flat out good player, you'll know that you can beat most Sonic's just by knowing what moves are hard for Sonic to get around. For example, OS isn't saying D-tilt alone is beating Sonic. It's the fact that he was able to use it to force Sonic to do something that put him in a bad position. Sonic doesn't have many safe approaches, and that's what I think he was trying to say.

Edit: Tenki, why the **** aren't you ever on msn? >=[

 

[Espy Rose]

Haahah, I feel so old at 17. Gonna be 18 in Decembah.

And I agree with most of what ROY said. And even though I agree Tenki that you can't expect them to know everything, simply put what we saw was a blatant lack of knowledge. Not necesarily on techs(although that wasn't exactly good either...), but just on applications of said techs and potential. In so many other write-ups I see discussion about potential, and I saw really none of that here.

Also, to any SBR members that have played anther, just so you know, he isn't even that good of a Sonic, yet. It's not to insult him, because I respect him tons, especially since he actually listens to our advice. I expect him to become pretty amazing in a while though, hes made tremendous improvement as of late, by actually listening to the advice of players who are overall worse smashers, because we have the actual knowledge of what Sonic can do. He just gotta get rid of SideB SDs and learn to ASC cancel Moar XD.

And yea, if you want to see a better indication of Sonic's "metagame" in vids, Puffball/Espy's or Tenki's recent ones are probably your best options. Sonics play is quite quickly developing I must say, it seems like in just a month, players are making significant improvements. Espy or Tenki didn't seem nearly as good in stuff from a month or 2 ago as they seemed in their most recent ones. Man, I wish we had vids of Puffball's last tourney.

But SBR, Imma repost the puffball vids so you can watch some Sonic pwnage.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8jEtEQDFj08
http://youtube.com/watch?v=jKA5lgGpQIU
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gzdRrh66lco
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oyy1PJnjaUE
http://youtube.com/watch?v=nwlke7Ekv1k

EDIT:
Needs moar TENKI!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkiCPq0GmLs

I reall did wish there were some recordings of my tournament last Saturday. The Sonic vs. Diddy matches were WAY too good, and I even managed to take out a Luigi on Battlefield.

Oh, and of course, DMK's MK =P *points at whorenado counter*

 

[Chis]

Maybe they think that if they say something, they'll have to deal with "OMGFGALKJ! LOL U DUNNO NETHING!" from upset fanboys.

Because I wouldn't wanna post if my (valid) points were ignored or attacked that way either.

>_>

You all sound like the tier list just got announced again.
just ... stop

Lol with Tenki and fanboys.

If they did something wrong someone should point them right. They haven't really proved us wrong on our assumptions/points yet. So now we wait...

 

[Tenki]

People need to stop posting vids of me for anything except for "Sonic can do this move/strategy, like here at _:__" because my vids are either me in crappy play or an opponent in crappy play, and 100% wifi.

>_>

also posting vids of me 4thelulz is also fine, because i have funny / depressing moments recorded by other people.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

I am truely dissapointed in what I saw of the SBR's disccussion. I can't believe how much of this stuff is just wrong. And Sonic mainers have been stepping it up. He's now B rank in tourney rankings. Something a character that's 5th from the bottom shouldn't probably be capable of. (if his tier posistion was true lol) Sonic IS starting to become a force to be reckoned with. He isn't top tier material,but he's not in Falcon Tier either.

I didn't expect SBR to say things that we didn't already know ourselves and though I hoped you guys were more knowledgeable about Sonic then it seemed you were from the discussions I've observed between you guys and some of the members here prior to this thread. But it doesn't seem like you are..

Even if you the SBR doesn't like the character,it's still your job to bring the most accurate information you can when disccussing and evaluating characters/anything in smash.


This is what came to mind when I read this thread lol. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBAay9nPtOU

 

[Kinzer]

Maybe they think that if they say something, they'll have to deal with "OMGFGALKJ! LOL U DUNNO NETHING!" from upset fanboys.

Because I wouldn't wanna post if my (valid) points were ignored or attacked that way either.

>_>

You all sound like the tier list just got announced again.
just ... stop

If they got appointed into the SBR, isn't it kind of obligatory that they address every problem related to Smash? I mean for example if not the pro/anti-banning of MK, who else would do it? And can you honestly say that they got a lot of things right on Sonic? I'll admit I could've chosen another way to approach instead of a woman on her period, but this is an outrage that they won't even take the time to seriously consider him. Have you forgetton the items competitive play?

They're points were anything but ignored, Hell I have to say we did hit them with their own crap HARD... One more thing I'm going to say before I shut up is that with that kind of attitude towards Sonic, they did somewhat ask for this...I understand that different people hate and love Sonic, but this is Sonic the playable character in Brawl we're talking about, not the platforming Hedgehog people know and love/hate back in '91.

 

[memphischains]

we really should stfu.

some of us actually have beaten reputable people in our areas, and we are still ignored.
some of us have tournament results, and we are still ignored
most of us make valid points about our character, and we are still ignored.

it seems to be a pointless cause at this point
i concur with tenki.

 

[cutter]

You guys do realize you're ripping the SBR. These aren't your everyday scrubs ya know :/

 

[memphischains]

...

you're an idiot

 

[Chis]

You guys do realize you're ripping the SBR. These aren't your everyday scrubs ya know :/

I don't suck up to people thanks.

 

[Napilopez]

Yea, I guess I'll agree, no sense in complaining anymore. Also Tenki, I just posted your vid cuz OS asked for vids to show stuff, and regardless of who you're playing and how you're playing, you show lots of Sonic's techs and whatnots. So thats the only reason I posted yours.

Oh well, I guess we're done here.

 

[memphischains]

lets make this like every other thread on the sonic boards and FILL IT WITH STEAK

and im not leaving till i hear a response from some people.

 

[Kinzer]

I'll get the baster.

 

[ROOOOY!]

This write-ups been that bad that even non-Sonic mains have been saying how much it sucks. xD
Making valid points may have helped alleviate that.

so..if we're not happy..

Let's do our own write-up. A completely unbias one.

 

[Espy Rose]

lets make this like every other thread on the sonic boards and FILL IT WITH STEAK

and im not leaving till i hear a response from some people.

Fantastic then, I'll bring the syringe.

Yeah, it turns out that you can inject liquified steak directly into things now.
This thread will be the first of many.

 

[memphischains]

he sbr has way too much chicken.

PUFF THIS NEEDS TO CHANGE

 

[Espy Rose]

he sbr has way too much chicken.

PUFF THIS NEEDS TO CHANGE

Change? Yes, change is usually good.

Exactly how many gallons of steak are we talking about here memphis? This could get costly, and if I don't fulfill the demanded requirement, my reputation would be at steak.

 

[memphischains]

enough to fill swf total ban-width

 

[Espy Rose]

enough to fill swf total ban-width

Well, it won't be an easy task. You DO realize that what you've requested an overabundant conglomeration of steak, right?

SP will die from heart disease. He's a panda, he can't stand steak.

 

[Super_Sonic8677]

I'm too slow. XD