Wario as Top Tier?

[DMG]

First off, this is not a joke thread. I am very serious about this, I think Wario is top tier if not one of the best 3 characters in the game. I have talked to Fiction, I have tried it out myself, and I have come to the conclusion that nearly all/almost all of his matchups are in his favor when you do one thing:

Get a lead and force your opponent to approach.

Most of the time, when we talk about Wario's matchups, we talk about tools he has to approach, get the kill, what will trade hits, etc. What we need to start asking ourselves is, "How can they catch us, and what can we do to stop them?"

Because after I though about it, it made a lot of sense. Wario is one of the most annoying characters to stop from approaching (He's just so good at approaching when he needs to), yet he is also one of the most annoying characters to approach when you play it right. We've been thinking about some of his fights wrong. We just assumed we had to approach nearly the entire match, but what happens when you stop approaching and basically force them to prove that they can catch you period?

I want people to post their thoughts about Wario possibly being top tier, what I do not want to see are people saying Wario is top tier BECAUSE he was in this game or that game or BECAUSE you like Wario as a character. I want some in depth discussion on whether or not he has that potential, and how do we unlock it for ourselves and prove he can reach that high?

EDIT: TO BE CLEAR, I AM TALKING ABOUT CAMPING WITH WARIO FOR SOME OF HIS PREVIOUSLY HARDER MATCHUPS (DEDEDE, SNAKE, YOSHI, ETC.) I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT DOING THIS FOR EVERY MATCHUP, WARIO HAS PLENTY OF MATCHUPS WHERE HE BEATS THEM NORMALLY/WHERE CAMPING IS NOT NECESSARY AT ALL. THANK YOU, THAT IS ALL.

EDIT#2: I <3 FICTON, NO HOMO. HE GETS CREDIT FOR THE IDEA.

 

[z3r0C0oL]

*spams lazer, bombs, arrows, grenades, boomerangs, to force approach.

 

[DMG]

*spams lazer, bombs, arrows, grenades, boomerangs, to force approach.

Wario can beat Link and TL without camping (TL is harder but you still beat him up close), Snake you can easily camp him on most stages, and Fox and Falco have trouble with Wario approaching. The closest one to getting him is Falco, and even he has a rough time.

Try again lol. Using a projectile only forces us to approach if we get hit by it. Most projectiles Wario can avoid fairly well and just reset the position.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Nothing really you can say, the only thing I'm worried about camping DMG, is causing stalling, does your method cause stalling? Otherwise we're set! (Now for that nightmare matchup that is marth >.<)

 

[DMG]

Nothing really you can say, the only thing I'm worried about camping DMG, is causing stalling, does your method cause stalling? Otherwise we're set! (Now for that nightmare matchup that is marth >.<)

Your TO would be very bad to DQ you for stalling. You are not trying to abuse edge invincibility, you are just running around the stage in somewhat close proximity to them and trying not to get hit. Edge camping is closer to stalling than this, and if edge camping is allowed then I see no reason this isn't allowed.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Your TO would be very bad to DQ you for stalling. You are not trying to abuse edge invincibility, you are just running around the stage in somewhat close proximity to them and trying not to get hit. Edge camping is closer to stalling than this, and if edge camping is allowed then I see no reason this isn't allowed.

Oh, ok then. This is perfectly fine then! But how do you beat a marth? I have such a hard time with that sword >.<.

I'll use this in my next tourny, boy will I piss people off though >.> Thanks DMG, your awesome!

 

[stnapknah]

Actually, DMG, I'm glad you brought this up. Lately, I've begun to realize this too. Wario is top tier. Just as you said in your post and the match-up thread, Wario is **** tough to beat when he camps (it's camping, not stalling!) out the opponent. This is because he has the best hit and run game out of anyone due to his amazing DI. Yet, he has the ability to destroy anyone in close combat by playing it smart. Also, only recently have I realized how big Wario's grab game is. He can grab to deal loads of damage to some characters and, on others, it's almost the only move he really needs to defeat them (i.e. G&W). And there's nothing you can do to stop it. In addition, he has a great recovery and a variety of killing moves. More importantly, once you learn how to not get grabbed and DI correctly, you will live to the 150s easily.

And z3r0C0oL, DMG is not saying we should camp EVERY match, he's just saying that, for example, when it was once thought that we need to approach the hell out of D3, we realize now that by playing defensive, the odds greatly turn in our favor. This doesn't mean we should start camping characters we already have a 60-40 on (unless it makes it 70-30 lol).

It comes down to one thing really. If you know Wario's match-ups, and play according to them, you will win. Wario is practically invincible when you play things right.

And MorphedChaos, Marth isn't really that hard to beat either. Someone (CPU) brought this to my attention earlier and he's right... The trick is to constantly apply pressure. You need to air dodge like crazy and fast fall so that you get close. At that point, play it safe with your aerials (nair mostly), don't get grabbed, and start dealing the damage. As for getting killed, learn where the tipper is and space yourself away from it. Also, he's **** easy to gimp when he needs to recover with up-b (rather than just DI back to the stage). Just head over to the right spot and wait for him and fart or something. This match-up will probably end up being listed at 40-60 or 45-55 only because if you start messing up just a little, Marth easily has the edge.

Anyway, that's my take on it. How do we get others to realize this? Patience. We need to slow down our style and start finding the best ways to stop approaches. Wario likes a fast paced face to face battle but now we are trying to do the complete opposite. We need to start seeing what works best against approaches and utilize those tactics. Now, I'm not sure whether he has the potential to be top 3, but I'm pretty sure he's easily top tier. Only one way to find out...

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This doesn't work out DMG. It's the same theoretical stuff as a "perfectly camping Olimar"...it sounds nice and easy but you forget that your opponent has a brain as well and can play just as gay if he wants to.

"Get a lead and force them to approach"

Mistake one: How do you get the lead against a Falco who only uses Laser, Reflector and Phantasm and who runs away for the entire battle? Such a Falco would have no bad match-up either, right? You can just deal damage and run away, against whomever you like...even MK, if you do it always 100% right. Other character can play just as gay (planking, SHL hit 'n run, etc) it's just that nobody does it.

Mistake two: How do you force King Dedede to approach? He throws a Waddle Dee. Wario shields. He throws another one. Wario shields again. This could go on forever but obviously Wario has to approach and get the lead? Good luck. Even if Wario has the lead at one point D3 can approach. All "approaching" requires you to do is get within a range where your longest reaching move hits the opponents shield. D3 can just go within ftilt range and attack Wario, who can't do much about it. Wario has to approach, not Dedede.

Getting the lead is nice and all but Wario still has to approach everybody who outranges him, which is a good bunch of characters. Many characters can safely approach Wario: Marth (dtilt), D3 (ftilt), MK (dtilt, ftilt, fair), Wolf (bair), ROB (ftilt), ... just to name some of them.

 

[MorphedChaos]

Uhm, on D3, you can eat Waddles... >.>

 

[stnapknah]

I don't agree with you Gheb_01... Wario = DI.
Don't play on FD and play a hit and run game. The point is not to just stand in one corner of the level.
Also, I think you guys are taking this the wrong way. As I already noted, we're not just going to do this to every character. For example, Olimar already plays gay and camps so we will use the most effective way to fight against this which might not be camping. We're going to use this on the characters which it will be effective. Wario is already high tier and, as of now, has been known to have a few pretty bad match-ups. With this new strategy, we can reduce the disadvantages he has which will then bump him up to top tier.

 

[MorphedChaos]

This will make matchups with D3 and other characters that gave Wario troulbe from 3:7 to 5:5, maybe even 6:4 or in D3's case, 7:3! (D3 is slow as hell, both in the air and on the ground, hit him once then run away, he can't do anything about it, you can bite waddles, just watch out for the Bair.

 

[Brinzy]

I said it before, but honestly, this is more of a player thing and not a character thing. Wario having good mobility isn't going to skyrocket him above everyone else with this strategy.

This can be turned right against you for many characters, too. Works in practice, so it could help with tournament results, but not in "theory Smash"...

 

[Shaya]

I feel like this is almost bad comedy.
Really bad comedy.

A character outranges, out prioritises, generally outspeeds, and has grab combos on 'you' and suddenly it's possible to make it an even matchup or better because you can "hit and run"?

Gheb's got it right. Wario is a great character; he is not top tier. He is disadvantaged by a character flaw that will plague him for eternity, other characters in the game have similar aerial movement that can match him when coupled with their aerials, he is severely lacking of range and many characters can withstand his pressure and counter it well, while wario can struggle doing the same to others.
In other words, Wario isn't broken; he's not balanced either. He has favourable character traits, but none that stand out as such great strengths that they overshadow his weaknesses. Hit and running as some sort of "savior" is like the Pit boards pulling at straws over left and right handed "stances" pit makes, or the Ness/Lucas boards going "WE HAVE EIDI, WE MUSTN'T BE LOW TIER". [exageration, sure - sue me]

 

[PhantomX]

Actually... you guys severely underestimate how good this is. Go watch DMG vs UltimateRazer Round 2 from Final Smash 5. Watch how he forces Snake to approach, and how he can barely do anything. Of course this strategy depends entirely on opponent's range, aerial movement and how good their aerials are in general, but it is actually very very good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeXmXZmtv6w&feature=channel_page There's the video I'm talking about. Don't knock the Snake either... he split for first at a tournament that had TX, OK, and LA players.

This is my preferred strategy against MKs and it works wonders (I've actually forced Hylian to utter the words "I can't hit you" before)... it also absolutely wrecks D3s. I don't even consider that a hard matchup anymore. It's really easy for us to get a lead w/ one of our quick, early 40% combos, and then we run away. Their projectiles are terrible, we can avoid them so easily it's almost a joke. If they approach on the ground, we can easily get a bite on them, or another retreating dair, if they approach us in the air, they lose, b/c our fair comes out faster than theirs, and they can't do much about poking. They can approach w/ bairs but that's easy to see and we can avoid it. Once D3 is offstage we can screw em up by forcing up bs.

I still say that this doesn't work against higher mobility characters or those with superior projectiles, such as Falco or Olimar (who we're already even with or beat anyway), Marth, or Game and Watch... but the only ones of those that gives us trouble is Marth.

Having only one actually bad matchup is pretty good, imo. The downside to this, of course, is that it's hella boring :\

 

[Brinzy]

Actually... you guys severely underestimate how good this is.

Why, because Wario's the god of not getting touched or something?

This isn't anything new.

 

[bassem6]

Hmm...I'll try this then give my input.

Edit 1: I watched dmgs matches and Im going to have to disagree with you phantom. DMG didnt win that because of his keep away strategy. He won that because the stage was forcing razor to approach/move and dmg was capitalizing on that.

In an ordinary match, there isnt going to be any lava pressuring your opponent. Look at match 3. DMG tries this but what ends up happening is razor slowly raises dmg's % while he himself isnt suffering that much. It ends up backfiring in the end because had dmg approached a bit sooner he may have been able to pull that u-air off and win the match.

 

[DemonFart]

yeah,i think wario is fine where he is...also i don't want him to be top tier for fear that he might be overplayed...also the tier list is just a list lol it doesn't matter where the characters are placed.

 

[PhantomX]

Hmm...I'll try this then give my input.

Edit 1: I watched dmgs matches and Im going to have to disagree with you phantom. DMG didnt win that because of his keep away strategy. He won that because the stage was forcing razor to approach/move and dmg was capitalizing on that.

In an ordinary match, there isnt going to be any lava pressuring your opponent. Look at match 3. DMG tries this but what ends up happening is razor slowly raises dmg's % while he himself isnt suffering that much. It ends up backfiring in the end because had dmg approached a bit sooner he may have been able to pull that u-air off and win the match.

That's not really true at all. Brinstar is a small stage, so technically Snake can just throw **** at him all the time. The layout of the platforms helps Wario immensely. This is what DMG was saying. Camping isn't overly effective on every stage, but on those with ample space and or a good platform layout, it's hard to do anything w/ your projectiles to Wario. I mean, Razor didn't HAVE to approach DMG, and hte few times he did b/c of the lava, DMG mostly just ran away, lol.

Tiny platformless stages or flat ones are the ones you don't want to use this strategy on... though it still works on the big flat ones against projectile-less characters.

 

[Waymas]

i did this to a ddd and it gave me awesome results

 

[PhantomX]

Did I tell you it wrecks D3s or what, Waymas?

P.S. Was it the same one that beat you in tourney? :X

 

[MorphedChaos]

Jeez, People need to believe in DMG and Phantom, They speak the truth, this DESTROYS characters that are slower then Wario, they can't hit him at all!

 

[Blistering Speed]

So, playstyle changes move characters up tiers now? This isn't like an AT or anything guys, this is theorycraft bull****.

 

[PhantomX]

It's not theorycraft if the playstyle change is one that abuses Wario's strengths, thus maximizing or improving his potential and performance, thus making him a better character. It's also not even close to the same thing as Olimar's "perfect camping" as there is much room for error when doing this with Wario. Are you going to tell me that if some MKs played entirely in their shield, and they all decided to abuse his amazing moves by being aggro and attacking more, they wouldn't become better? How do you think MK got to where he was? Playstyle changes. When no one knew about shuttle loop, or how to kill with him, Snake was above him. People learned to play differently with him, abuse his strengths, look where MK is no.

Oh, and I don't care about the tier placings, I've always considered Wario top tier, before DMG even made this thread.

 

[bassem6]

That's not really true at all. Brinstar is a small stage, so technically Snake can just throw **** at him all the time. The layout of the platforms helps Wario immensely. This is what DMG was saying. Camping isn't overly effective on every stage, but on those with ample space and or a good platform layout, it's hard to do anything w/ your projectiles to Wario. I mean, Razor didn't HAVE to approach DMG, and hte few times he did b/c of the lava, DMG mostly just ran away, lol.

Tiny platformless stages or flat ones are the ones you don't want to use this strategy on... though it still works on the big flat ones against projectile-less characters.

Ahh ok. I thought you guys were saying to try using this on every stage. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[DMG]

And z3r0C0oL, DMG is not saying we should camp EVERY match, he's just saying that, for example, when it was once thought that we need to approach the hell out of D3, we realize now that by playing defensive, the odds greatly turn in our favor. This doesn't mean we should start camping characters we already have a 60-40 on (unless it makes it 70-30 lol).

^^This. If you can beat a character without camping, then don't resort to it. For some matchups though, you can usually turn it more into your favor by just not approaching.

This doesn't work out DMG. It's the same theoretical stuff as a "perfectly camping Olimar"...it sounds nice and easy but you forget that your opponent has a brain as well and can play just as gay if he wants to.

"Get a lead and force them to approach"

Mistake one: How do you get the lead against a Falco who only uses Laser, Reflector and Phantasm and who runs away for the entire battle? Such a Falco would have no bad match-up either, right? You can just deal damage and run away, against whomever you like...even MK, if you do it always 100% right. Other character can play just as gay (planking, SHL hit 'n run, etc) it's just that nobody does it.

Mistake two: How do you force King Dedede to approach? He throws a Waddle Dee. Wario shields. He throws another one. Wario shields again. This could go on forever but obviously Wario has to approach and get the lead? Good luck. Even if Wario has the lead at one point D3 can approach. All "approaching" requires you to do is get within a range where your longest reaching move hits the opponents shield. D3 can just go within ftilt range and attack Wario, who can't do much about it. Wario has to approach, not Dedede.

Getting the lead is nice and all but Wario still has to approach everybody who outranges him, which is a good bunch of characters. Many characters can safely approach Wario: Marth (dtilt), D3 (ftilt), MK (dtilt, ftilt, fair), Wolf (bair), ROB (ftilt), ... just to name some of them.

Dedede CANNOT approach Wario... lol he loses HARD when Wario camps him. Slowest Horizontal airspeed in the game? Slow run? Cmon there's no way he is catching Wario anytime soon.

ROB has trouble approaching too, but I think we can beat ROB without camping (although camping him turns it into our favor more).

For Falco, we already have a good matchup on him, we don't need to camp to beat him. We CAN camp him, but it is very boring, always dodging lasers and the occasional phantasm to try and catch up to us. Falco is not nearly as good at not getting hit as Wario. He doesn't have an uber airdodge, good air speed, etc. All he has are tools to stop people from getting near, he doesn't have excellent run away tools. (Phantasm towards the other side just doesn't work against some characters.)

I feel like this is almost bad comedy.
Really bad comedy.

A character outranges, out prioritises, generally outspeeds, and has grab combos on 'you' and suddenly it's possible to make it an even matchup or better because you can "hit and run"?

Gheb's got it right. Wario is a great character; he is not top tier. He is disadvantaged by a character flaw that will plague him for eternity, other characters in the game have similar aerial movement that can match him when coupled with their aerials, he is severely lacking of range and many characters can withstand his pressure and counter it well, while wario can struggle doing the same to others.
In other words, Wario isn't broken; he's not balanced either. He has favourable character traits, but none that stand out as such great strengths that they overshadow his weaknesses. Hit and running as some sort of "savior" is like the Pit boards pulling at straws over left and right handed "stances" pit makes, or the Ness/Lucas boards going "WE HAVE EIDI, WE MUSTN'T BE LOW TIER". [exageration, sure - sue me]

Range, priority, grab combo's, etc do not matter if you can't catch him while he hops around. This is not pulling at straws, this is trying to change our playstyle vs certain problem matchups where we have been thinking the wrong way. Since most of his bad matchups CAN be resolved with camping them, that would make Wario an overall better character with less bad matchups, meaning he should rise on the tier list.

So, playstyle changes move characters up tiers now? This isn't like an AT or anything guys, this is theorycraft bull****.

Of course it's not an AT, what we are trying to do is sit down, and instead of ask "How do we approach with Wario?", we ask "How do we stop them from hitting us?".

FOR THE ENTIRE GAME'S RELEASE, we have gone over and over and over in his matchups about how to approach. Dair here, Fair poke there, SH Airdodge through them, etc. What I feel like is that through all of that, while we were talking about how to retreat well with Wario to get out of danger, that we never asked ourselves, "Hey, if I get a lead, who says I HAVE to approach? I'll force them to come to me."

 

[FatJackieChan]

I was planning on making DK my heavy character, but after watching the results of that battle, I might just go Wario. My biggest match-up problem was D3, and DK didn't help at all! (Probably the worst choice actually save Bowser.) I also play Marth, Kirby (maybe), and Olimar. Wario is heavy and lives for a long time. I am pretty good at camping with Olimar, but camping with Wario gets great results on D3 and my first tourney is next week. I don't want to lose because of bad planning.

I think that would be very productive if you were to make a list of stages this strategy works on, and what characters as well. If this is also an MK counter I am set in stone.

 

[PhantomX]

Take MK somewhere very large and with spaced out platforms or none at all. MK has no counters, but this makes the matchup really really even, imo.

You'll wreck D3s though. If they try to approach you in the air (their only option), just fair them to hell and back, when they get offstage unleash the **** and force an up B which is a free waft or clap kill.

 

[Wario Nut]

This is all very interesting but even if it did bump Wario up on the tier list this can't be anything but boring to do in a match. Right? So are we even interested in furthering this as a Wario play style.

 

[Bowser King]

All of a sudden, a matchup of 70:30 goes to 50:50 or worse because of keep away?

Seriously, it may be helpful but you guys make it seem amazing. It's not like this is some new tech or something. It's just a change in playstyle. I really doubt THAT would cause such a change in the matchup.

-Bowser King

 

[PhantomX]

Yes, it's boring... sort of. Sometime I get into it, other times I hate it. I personally revel when people finally give in and start approaching me and notice they can't really do anything. I obviously prefer to play offensive but if I'm facing gay characters then sure I'll play like this (remember this is for tournaments, thus "prestige" and money).

And do you really think boring matters competitively? If it did there wouldn't be people playing Falco, or Olimar, or ROB, or anyone campy, lol.

EDIT: @bowser_king In most cases the change isn't as drastic. However, D3 is slow in every definition of the word. Their main strength is hoping we approach so they can get grabs and CGs and then edgeguard, which they do very well. If we don't approach, they get SCREWED OVER. Their projectiles are balls, and hellishly easy to avoid. If they approach on the ground and try any attacks, we can move out of the way. If they try to ftilt or sit in shield, our Bite resets the situation. If they come towards us in the air, our fair beats theirs EVERY TIME (it comes out way faster). They can try approaching backairs but then we can just move away from them (slowest aerial control vs second fastest, not hard) until they land and then bite or punish again. D3 is one of the few matchups where this really makes a HUGE difference.

It doesn't change the Marth matchup at all, really, unfortunately.

 

[Wario Nut]

Well I'm not a tourney player so I don't have a reason to do it but I can see what you mean. I live in South Dakota so there is like no such thing as a Smash tourney lol. My friends are good though and we train constantly.

 

[DMG]

All of a sudden, a matchup of 70:30 goes to 50:50 or worse because of keep away?

Seriously, it may be helpful but you guys make it seem amazing. It's not like this is some new tech or something. It's just a change in playstyle. I really doubt THAT would cause such a change in the matchup.

-Bowser King

Ok then, explain how Dedede is supposed to Hit Wario. In the air? Too Slow. On the ground? Good Luck, we will be in the air most of the time.

How about Zelda? We move faster in the air than she can run. She also blows trying to approach from the air.

We don't plan on using this against every character, a lot of times it is more productive to just stay on their tail and approach all day. But against Dedede, Snake, etc, camping them forces them to approach, and if they can't approach well then we win.

 

[FatJackieChan]

As shown in the video, this also works on Snake. Are there any other top tier characters that this works on (or is even needed for)? Nobody realizes that play-style is a character. Even with ATs, if learn the tech, and don't adjust your play-style to use it, it doesn't help. Adapt or die in the science world, and I'd say that Wario can adapt quite well.

 

[DMG]

As shown in the video, this also works on Snake. Are there any other top tier characters that this works on (or is even needed for)? Nobody realizes that play-style is a character. Even with ATs, if learn the tech, and don't adjust your play-style to use it, it doesn't help. Adapt or die in the science world, and I'd say that Wario can adapt quite well.

It WRECKS Dedede, HARD. You can do this to Snake, Dedede, ROB to an extent (I usually only camp him if he tries to edge camp me), it works on most of his previously bad matchups period, even if they aren't top tier or high tier.

 

[PhantomX]

It works on Snake better on some stages than others. He can make it really difficult though by booby trapping the entire stage XD

This works to some extent on MK and Watch (who you can beat w/o it), as their game revolves a lot around retreating aerials. If they retreat the aerials you can airdodge away and be safe, if they try to come into you you can attempt to predict and punish, shieldgrab, or, in the case of turtles, SDI up and out into a clap or ff nair or even waft if you're quick enough. I personally don't like this against Falco as it's way too tedious to do compared to others, and it's pretty even w/o it anyway. He has no solid kill moves on you aside from bair if you're careful, and w/ good DI that shouldn't kill you till like 160 from the middle of FD fresh

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Wario is what tier?

Sorry, I couldn't hear you over the screams whilst I was grab releasing and infiniting and finishing off with an Up Smash

(That was unhelpful of me...I apologise )

A Wario that bounces around all over the place is extremely irritating to fight. Sometimes I just spam Turnips and be really *****y with ledge camping because it's that annoying trying to catch that fat little man

What interests me is how you will camp without any projectile at all? Unless you're planning on quickly whipping out your Bike and throwing the wheels at me And how will you camp near the ledge/off stage efficiently with...forgive me - rather dodgy recovery?

As Peach for example, if you don't approach, big deal I'll just sit back and spam Turnips and follow you around in the air/on the ground. You have to land at some point and you're going to run out of stage/platforms at some point

Don't get me wrong, I have a friend who plays a great Wario and I don't underestimate Wario (grabbing him is no easy task that's for sure) but the idea of bouncing around avoiding everything, despite his aerial mobility being ridiculous, doesn't sound too practical at first (which is why I think other have thought of it being so bizzare) when your character lacks range and a projectile

 

[MorphedChaos]

Don't forget we kill falco at 100% or less , its just the Dthrow to spike that hurts

 

[PhantomX]

Wario is what tier?

Sorry, I couldn't hear you over the screams whilst I was grab releasing and infiniting and finishing off with an Up Smash

(That was unhelpful of me...I apologise )

A Wario that bounces around all over the place is extremely irritating to fight. Sometimes I just spam Turnips and be really *****y with ledge camping because it's that annoying trying to catch that fat little man

What interests me is how you will camp without any projectile at all? Unless you're planning on quickly whipping out your Bike and throwing the wheels at me And how will you camp near the ledge/off stage efficiently with...forgive me - rather dodgy recovery?

As Peach for example, if you don't approach, big deal I'll just sit back and spam Turnips and follow you around in the air/on the ground. You have to land at some point and you're going to run out of stage/platforms at some point

Don't get me wrong, I have a friend who plays a great Wario and I don't underestimate Wario (grabbing him is no easy task that's for sure) but the idea of bouncing around avoiding everything, despite his aerial mobility being ridiculous, doesn't sound too practical at first (which is why I think other have thought of it being so bizzare) when your character lacks range and a projectile

Ridiculous aerial control + an airdodge as good as most rolls is plenty to avoid pretty much everything. Like we've said though, this is much more effective against certain characters than others. We don't need to avoid you for hours, that isn't really the plan... the point is to get you to approach so we have control/more options. Peach has solid approaches on Wario so this doesn't apply/help much in her case. Oh, and would you really sit back and throw **** or ledgecamp when you're behind? You can't exactly afford to, hence the requirement that we be leading in damage or stocks, lol.

 

[TheJerm]

Yea, I saw this work on razer with my own eyes. Fattyfatfatso kind of did this to me and it deleted my zair usage almost to none.Luckily I thought of a new plan quick enough. I want to try it on DMG next time we meet. =]

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I see. The ledge camping thing - sorry my bad I phased and forgot about the whole lead thing ><

So in a nutshell, the idea is to frustrate and pressurise your opponent when you're ahead and use that to your advantage to force them to approach?

Interesting...mind me asking which characters you'd use this against?