Wario as Top Tier?

[PhantomX]

I don't even know why you'd want to do this on a TL, he has no grab release and the only thing TL has on us is his backair (though it's a gay thing) XD

And the pressure/frustration is a bonus. The fact of the matter is that, at least as Wario, if your opponents are approaching you, under most circumstances you are in control as you have many more options to shut them down than they do to get damage on you.

 

[DMG]

I see. The ledge camping thing - sorry my bad I phased and forgot about the whole lead thing ><

So in a nutshell, the idea is to frustrate and pressurise your opponent when you're ahead and use that to your advantage to force them to approach?

Interesting...mind me asking which characters you'd use this against?

Most of Wario's previously hard matchups. The funny thing is, for most of his harder matchups his opponents stink at approaching (Dedede, Snake is no king at approaching, Yoshi, etc.)

Also, the Peach infinite doesn't work on Wario, grab release to Usmash and grab release to Footstool are valid but the infinite we can get out of. That matchup is kinda meh anyways, like you CAN camp Peach but it is super tedious and really, really boring.

 

[ROOOOY!]

This video proof is not down to the character, but the player. More really, the opponent not being able to handle the differing playstyles.

The idea in itself is generalisable to the whole cast of Brawl. Deal with projectiles through airdodging? Well yeah, so can everybody else. How this is a tool exclusive to Wario that can make everybody approach as you're magically dodging every single projectile thrown at you is completely beyond me.

What happens when fake-out approaches are taken into account? I'll use Sonic here because he's pretty much best at them. What happens when he shield cancels a Spindash and punishes your defensive action you took in response to the original threat of the Spindash?

I haven't really read any responses in detail, so I don't know if this had been said, but this is comparable to the 'perfect camping Olimar' analogy. Whilst you're predicting that everything is going to be perfect dancing around your opponents, you can't simply discredit the opponent and say that they won't be able to hit you, because humans aren't infallible.

Wario's better offensively then defensively, anyway >_>

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Most of Wario's previously hard matchups. The funny thing is, for most of his harder matchups his opponents stink at approaching (Dedede, Snake is no king at approaching, Yoshi, etc.)

Also, the Peach infinite doesn't work on Wario, grab release to Usmash and grab release to Footstool are valid but the infinite we can get out of. That matchup is kinda meh anyways, like you CAN camp Peach but it is super tedious and really, really boring.

Tell me about...

*gets giant butterfly net and goes back to try and swipe him a Wario*

 

[TheJerm]

I dont think they are saying they wont get hit. Just that they are forcing an approach.

 

[PhantomX]

This video proof is not down to the character, but the player. More really, the opponent not being able to handle the differing playstyles.

The idea in itself is generalisable to the whole cast of Brawl. Deal with projectiles through airdodging? Well yeah, so can everybody else. How this is a tool exclusive to Wario that can make everybody approach as you're magically dodging every single projectile thrown at you is completely beyond me.

What happens when fake-out approaches are taken into account? I'll use Sonic here because he's pretty much best at them. What happens when he shield cancels a Spindash and punishes your defensive action you took in response to the original threat of the Spindash?

I haven't really read any responses in detail, so I don't know if this had been said, but this is comparable to the 'perfect camping Olimar' analogy. Whilst you're predicting that everything is going to be perfect dancing around your opponents, you can't simply discredit the opponent and say that they won't be able to hit you, because humans aren't infallible.

Wario's better offensively then defensively, anyway >_>

Wario's airdodge HAS AS MUCH INVINCIBILITY AS A ROLL. This is HUGELY important. Like, in one airdodge we can avoid BOTH of Falco's SHDLs... no one else can do that. I'd say that's a unique tool. Who else can airdodge an entire G&W nair and bair? Not many.

And like we've said, time and time again, this has varying degrees of success depending on character. If you get faked out, then you take the damage, not much we can do. Unlike perfect camping, we don't get ***** when we get hit, our margin for error is much more comfortable. Also, this primarily helps against those who have ****ty approaches, which was like... 3 of our harder matchups (Zelda, D3, Yoshi). They have no good options when coming towards us, so we wreck them... see how it works?

See, jerm gets it. If he was as awesome as Santi he'd be my favorite TL! (j/p, I <3 you)

 

[ROOOOY!]

Ah, I see now.
I really need to sleep more.

I think my point about this being generalisable to all the cast still stands really though. Most characters, if they're a stock down, have to approach their opponent (the only ones not doing so are the match-ups where approaches are just impossible eg. Ganon v IC's or not neccessary eg Olimar v Ganon)

I suppose Wario does have better tools for safety though, so this is pretty much fine in theorycraft.

Now all you've got to work out is how to get a stock lead in pretty dire match-ups like Yoshi =p.

Couldn't being stand-offish for minutes on end count as stalling, though?

 

[DMG]

I dont think they are saying they wont get hit. Just that they are forcing an approach.

And when you force an approach, we expect to reasonably either punish it or just avoid it and force you to do it again. U get it, u understand. So does Razer, this is not to be taken lightly lol.

Edit:

Ah, I see now.
I really need to sleep more.

I think my point about this being generalisable to all the cast still stands really though. Most characters, if they're a stock down, have to approach their opponent (the only ones not doing so are the match-ups where approaches are just impossible eg. Ganon v IC's or not neccessary eg Olimar v Ganon)

I suppose Wario does have better tools for safety though, so this is pretty much fine in theorycraft.

Now all you've got to work out is how to get a stock lead in pretty dire match-ups like Yoshi =p.

Couldn't being stand-offish for minutes on end count as stalling, though?

You don't have to be a stock down, they just have to be higher in % and you win.

And no, this is not stalling. It's not aiming to abuse invincibility frames like edge camping, we DO actually come in fairly close proximity at times with opponents but then we airdodge and they can't get us, and you could also use that time to bait them into approaching and then punishing them and continuing running around.

 

[PhantomX]

Dude, we don't need a stock lead, just A lead. it's hella easy for us to avoid most projectiles, so they'll eventually have to approach, and Yoshi, D3, Snake, Zelda suck at approaching and thus we pwn them. That's over half our bad matchups right there. We don't really care about this in relation to our easier matchups XD

 

[stnapknah]

Yeah, this is getting kind of annoying when random people read the first post and say something that's already been said. Add something about how we're not planning to camp every match, only the ones where it is effective, DMG.

 

[PKNintendo]

Wario is top tier in my opinion too.

He's actually ridiculously good. I ALMOST mained for a tourney. (stupid Marths) I only got 2 Ness matches that one time, and my friend was being a real **** about it.

Friend: COUNTER PICK HIS NESS FOR MARTH! NAO!

Everyone: okay lol

 

[ssbbFICTION]

okay....lol. First of all....for the people giving DMG heat on it, its not his idea anyway. Its mine. If you think it doesn't work u can bag on me personally at Fiction52s on AIM. Have fun lol. I have some points on this

1. IDK what some people dont understand about running away. You simply don't let people hit you. You rant to them about how you always run the timer out and how they are never going to catch you

2. The goal is not to run the timer out, nor to let the opponent lrastart while crying at the top of their lungs that God hates them, yet both of these happen at time to time. The goal of this strategy is to get a lead and get them FRUSTRATED enough and SCARED enough of being timered that they will begin to approach, often recklessly.
NOTE: If they are not approaching recklessly, it means you should run away longer, and rant more, as to get them to become frustrated, thus approaching recklessly.

3. I like to think of this strategy as the movie Jaws. You know that hes coming to kill you, thats hit obvious goal. The problem is, you are a small dumb human, and he is a giant shark that you cannot see until he attacks you. The wario strategy is about the same way. The opponent is a large, (generally homosexual) character such as d3, and your goal is to eventually kill him. He is equated with the small, dumb human. YOU ARE JAWS. You run around in the air (or water if you are literally a shark) where they cannot get you. They shoot at you (waddledees) but cannot hit you since you are dodging them or even eating their bullets (how l33t can u get lol). The eventually must result to jumping into the water wielding a small rubber mallet. You are a shark and you laugh at the silly pathetic human. While he is hopping (floating) around slowly and dumbly in the air (water) you simply begin to fake approach (usually cued by the music dun dun dun udn dun dund dudndudndudndudndudn agohogihhgoehtg AIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!11111). You make him scared and frustrated at the fact that he will die of terminal cancer unless he kills the shark and gets to a hospital in about 7 or 8 minutes. He runs dumbly at you, jumps into the air (water) and starts swinging this small rubber mallet. You slowly get closer and closer and his cancer hurts more and more into he finally starts doing dumb stuff like swinging his mallet at nothing and getting out of breath. You take advantage of this poor fool by poking him with your teeth and then running away (poking at the timer/cancer), frustrating him even more. This usually results in the small dumb human (d3) deciding it is better to beat himself to death with the hammer than actually have to deal with the stress of the shark in the water.

I hope I made this clearer lol. Enjoy



EDIT: I actually don't think DMG did it that well in the video vs razer, but then again I've never tried this vs a snake player >_<

 

[PhantomX]

Fiction, the way you describe makes it seem like the point is to depend on the opponent making mistakes and getting frustrated, which is totally ********. -_-

 

[stnapknah]

If you're having trouble with the new strategy, watching this helps
http://www.watch-movies.net/movies/jaws/

 

[MorphedChaos]

Fiction has a point, Humans panic, they aren't computers.

 

[Dogg/Naoki/Suzaku]

Wario has a lot of potential. His camping is just very hard to counter. His only huge flaw that other characters can get him with is the grab release on him.

 

[PhantomX]

Fiction has a point, Humans panic, they aren't computers.

Better humans won't care, won't panic... or will do the same thing against you when they notice what you're doing. Trust me.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

Better humans won't care, won't panic... or will do the same thing against you when they notice what you're doing. Trust me.

People will panic unless they are azen lol. But I've never played him XD

 

[MorphedChaos]

People will panic unless they are azen lol. But I've never played him XD

You can make ANY human panic, it just takes more time for some then others.

 

[PhantomX]

*sigh* Relying on that is dumb... again. And it has nothing to do with matchups, that has to do with the people playing. You can't say Wario is a good/better character b/c the people playing against him are dumb. Hylian also has caught on when I face his game and Watch, so he will chase me and hit me (it's not that easy to avoid GW flurries of attacks) until he's in the lead, and then wait there until I approach.

It gives you the advantage of options and control... THAT'S what makes it good and merits Wario being considered better... not "lol, they'll play bad if i piss in their eyes, so now Wario is better than mk LOLOLOL"

 

[Fade016]

Wario is good but not the best 3. There are more ways coming every day to stop wario. Grab realease combos, Wario has 2-3 realiable kill moves( except for gimping moves like fair). Don't get me wrong he is good. I secondary wario he is very good in a 1v2 matchup being the one vsing the two. If he wasent so hard to grab. he would have a much harder time competing. Campers can get wario Even if he ledge stalls. You can only really ledge stall if you have a lower percent which is already hard to do on campers. I'd say wario should be right around where he is on the tier list. maybe a little higher.

 

[iRjOn]

This acctually makes since >.>

 

[Waymas]

man this thread is really interestin

 

[ssbbFICTION]

I never stated this would make wario the best character, I simply said this is a very effective strategy and gave my views on it. You can taaaaaaake it or leave it XD

 

[Kitamerby]

I wanna see a Wario **** a top D3/Marf/Snake with this strategy, or at least one on the same skill level as the Wario before I judge. In all honesty, this really is just the whole perfect camping scenario, except if you screw up in a certain way you get infinited or something.

 

[PhantomX]

Look at the last page. DMG did it to UltimateRazer who's one of the best Snake players in the US and THE best in TEXAS. The difference between this and perfect camping is the word "perfect," and the fact that we're not really camping, just forcing them to approach repeatedly. We also don't die in 30 seconds from gimps if we mess up. I also do this to D3s... a lot... Buff just beat a D3 in Mexico by playing like this that he lost to in tournament a week or so ago (in the finals, I think).

It also doesn't work on Marth... seriously... people need to read earlier posts, not just the first and then make a comment :\

 

[ssbbFICTION]

It ***** d3. Snake it differes from player to player and their mastery of nade traps. Marth....you don't need it on marth lol.

 

[bassem6]

Look at the last page. DMG did it to UltimateRazer who's one of the best Snake players in the US and THE best in TEXAS. The difference between this and perfect camping is the word "perfect," and the fact that we're not really camping, just forcing them to approach repeatedly. We also don't die in 30 seconds from gimps if we mess up. I also do this to D3s... a lot... Buff just beat a D3 in Mexico by playing like this that he lost to in tournament a week or so ago (in the finals, I think).

It also doesn't work on Marth... seriously... people need to read earlier posts, not just the first and then make a comment :\

Thats not the best example to go by. He DID lose >_>

 

[PhantomX]

DMG SDed at 0% and still managed to take it to the wire... I don't see how that has to do with this strategy being ineffective.

 

[bassem6]

I didn't say it has to do with the strategy being ineffective. Im saying you should find a match where no silly mistakes were made by either party so we can have an adequate match to base this technique's effectiveness off of.(Preferably played on a neutral stage)

 

[PKNintendo]

I feel like this is almost bad comedy.
Really bad comedy.

A character outranges, out prioritises, generally outspeeds, and has grab combos on 'you' and suddenly it's possible to make it an even matchup or better because you can "hit and run"?

Gheb's got it right. Wario is a great character; he is not top tier. He is disadvantaged by a character flaw that will plague him for eternity, other characters in the game have similar aerial movement that can match him when coupled with their aerials, he is severely lacking of range and many characters can withstand his pressure and counter it well, while wario can struggle doing the same to others.
In other words, Wario isn't broken; he's not balanced either. He has favourable character traits, but none that stand out as such great strengths that they overshadow his weaknesses. Hit and running as some sort of "savior" is like the Pit boards pulling at straws over left and right handed "stances" pit makes, or the Ness/Lucas boards going "WE HAVE EIDI, WE MUSTN'T BE LOW TIER". [exageration, sure - sue me]

Your a douche.

Especially the Ness/Lucas crap. Do some **** research and learn that Lucas doesn't even need EIDI.

Oh ya the Wario thing. It's a great tactic. I love how people assume that grab releases ruin Wario. And Wario get's grabbed in a match by the average character, 1 or twice tops.

It's like a war on my mains, grab release lovers everywhere. (shudder)

 

[ssbbFICTION]

I feel like this is almost bad comedy.
Really bad comedy.

A character outranges, out prioritises, generally outspeeds, and has grab combos on 'you' and suddenly it's possible to make it an even matchup or better because you can "hit and run"?

Gheb's got it right. Wario is a great character; he is not top tier. He is disadvantaged by a character flaw that will plague him for eternity, other characters in the game have similar aerial movement that can match him when coupled with their aerials, he is severely lacking of range and many characters can withstand his pressure and counter it well, while wario can struggle doing the same to others.
In other words, Wario isn't broken; he's not balanced either. He has favourable character traits, but none that stand out as such great strengths that they overshadow his weaknesses. Hit and running as some sort of "savior" is like the Pit boards pulling at straws over left and right handed "stances" pit makes, or the Ness/Lucas boards going "WE HAVE EIDI, WE MUSTN'T BE LOW TIER". [exageration, sure - sue me]

Lol. People can keep thinking wario is "alright" and keep getting *****. I'm fine with that. The marth's around here swear marth vs wario is even lol

 

[Warlock*G]

This topic is now about Wario's awesome, awesome mustache.

 

[iRjOn]

I honestly dont see how people cant see the effectiveness in this.
Personally idc where characters reside on the teir list but I do know Wario is really good.
Its plain obvious what they mean if you can imagine the senario.
Imagine Wario's already hard to hit self not coming to you when you are at 40%
and hes at 10%

If your D3...no one here saying this idea is stupid really shows up to maining D3, think I saw like 3 or so?
But if your D3 how the hell are you going to approach on BF?
ftilt?
nope Wario will more then likely go over you then hit you and continue running.
Wario's DI makes D3 unable to chase him in the air...
D3's mobility sucks str8 up.
Against Wario Waddle Dees and Doos are useless.
Only Gordos can help...
Try geting a Gordo everytime lolz
Sure D3 can grab Wario.
But from whats been said the Wario abandons nearly all offence and takes a big can of punishment sauce.
Thus meaning at match senario's
Wario will never get close enough unless your in lagg...

So this is what I got...not all but some of what.
Hope its near correct and helps you non believers understand alittle better...

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

I completely understand the effectiveness against his bad match ups - I apologise as I assumed that you guys were saying that you should camp every match even against people with projectiles and the like as did most other people by the looks of things (although it probably should have been stuck in the OP like it is now xD)

I'm curious though, might platforms hinder this tactic? I understand they're very helpful to Wario incase he does get grabbed but when you're jumping around and air dodge all over the places, could platforms possibly get in the way?

 

[PhantomX]

Platforms make it easier, actually (depending on the layout of course). Sure, he's more susceptible to poking, but it also gives him more options on where to land and space from his opponent.

 

[Snowstalker]

*looks at this topic, then proceeds to perform infinite grab*

The fattie's fine where he is.

 

[PhantomX]

You don't think it's sad that your character with an infinite grab is only a 60:40 against Wario? This also keeps in mind that we're attempting to attack you. How you gonna pivot grab us if we just run away? You can't spam eggs fast enough to hit us out of our airdodges. Rofl, gtfo noob. And for the record, this isn't me spouting bull****. Bwett, one of the best placing tournament Yoshi's in the nation (though not comparable to Pride), agrees that the matchup needs to be reevaluated, more in our favor, of course.

 

[Warlock*G]

You don't think it's sad that your character with an infinite grab is only a 60:40 against Wario? This also keeps in mind that we're attempting to attack you. How you gonna pivot grab us if we just run away? You can't spam eggs fast enough to hit us out of our airdodges. Rofl, gtfo noob. And for the record, this isn't me spouting bull****. Bwett, one of the best placing tournament Yoshi's in the nation (though not comparable to Pride), agrees that the matchup needs to be reevaluated, more in our favor, of course.

Don't even answer, he isn't worth it.

>_>

<_<

As a matter of fact, this whole game isn't worth it.

 

[MrEh]

Bwett, one of the best placing tournament Yoshi's in the nation (though not comparable to Pride), agrees that the matchup needs to be reevaluated, more in our favor, of course.

Deciding matchups based on unreliable grab release infinities is silly, especially since Wario is so hard to grab to begin with. I think Wario/Yoshi is 50-50 with the infinite. It would definitely be in Wario's favor if the infinite didn't exist.

As for something like Bowser, I think the matchup would still be 55-45, infinite or not. My reasoning for that is because Bowser doesn't do all that bad against Wario even without it. Bowser and Wario is a battle of the badasses.

As a matter of fact, this whole game isn't worth it.

I'm gonna go play Smash 64...