[WA] Perth Smash Thread

[Hobobloke]

I'm sorry but in my opinion their say counts less than ours, this is our scene and we should be the ones deciding the future of it. Just because they are good players does not mean they are more important than us.

 

[Jupz]

Sure its our scene, but there scene has progressed past ours and their just sharing their experience. Advice from the best Ice Climbers main in the world and Australias most knowledgeable (and one of the best, if not the best) players is nothing to brush aside.

No other place in the world has their infinites banned, and thats for a reason. Are we really going to stoop the level of casual friendlies with friends?

 

[Hobobloke]

In what way has thier scene progressed past ours? "Theres a reason the best players opinions count more then others." This made me cringe, really mate we are not some sort of inferior beings with no knowledge because we don't place as well in large tournaments, and it was also undermining to all of us.

 

[Jupz]

The american metagame has progressed past ours; you see them using different tactics, and tactics that work here might not work over there. The actual metagame might be similar, but they are playing at a higher level of it.

i will have no qualms stopping anyone from entering a tourney if i feel they are going to spoil everybody elses enjoyment_

how do you think reading this made me feel? being accused of trying to ruin other peoples fun simply because of picking up a character :\ I once heard an IC's main say "no-one ever understands us " now I know what they mean. They're hated simply for using a character that isn't even in the top 10.

You know I didn't mean to insult anyone, but its true. Why do the SBR get to decide all the brawl related rules? If a random scrub with 4 posts comes into a matchup discussion and posts something, people are likely not to listen. What happens if the best player in the world comes in and posts the same thing? People are going to listen to him, because he has more experience.

This happens in real life all the time. You're more likely to listen to a leading scientist then a kid off the street.

I just want you guys to know when I said "others" I wasn't referring to anyone in here, or anyone at all. I was just making a broad statement and I'm sorry if I hurt anyone.

This has been taken too far, lets just stop the debate before anyone gets hurt and start a poll. However, I still don't see how we have to do this considering no other places in the world have it banned and their metagame turned out fine.

 

[Alzi]

When he said that he wasn't meaning you trying to ruin people's fun and spoil their enjoyment.

This ice climber debate is keeping the perth thread active. Just as it was down forawhile and not many post few weeks ago it has hit the top again.

There is really no one in the perth scene we hate since everyone is cool. Who is lain anyway? Intresting never knew Americans lurked around here.

 

[Jupz]

He probably name searched because we were using him for points in the debate

 

[Alzi]

Ahh i see.

Anyway to make this post longer i will just say what i am doing next year for year 11:

English 1c/d or i might do 2a/b will ask my teacher to see what she thinks.
Maths 2a/b or i might move up to 2c/d will ask maths teacher.
Religion 1a/b lol who would even want to move up in this compulsory subject?

^ You must do those 3.

Design: Technical Graphics 1c/d is the only level they have.
Visual Arts 2a/b Highest they have for year 11.
Not sure on last subject

I was thinking of filling it with Design: Photography since that all comes in with graphics and my future. I do well in SAE and was thinking of doing economics although i don't need that for my job so i might just do photography.

 

[Hobobloke]

Alzi english 2A/B isn't that hard both me and Jupz do it. I do maths 2A/B and it's inredibly easy i'm averaging around 90% basically it's year 10 all over again, nothing harder, also i was under the impression you couldn't take 2C/D in year 11

As for my yearr 12 choices i'm doing either 2C/D or 3A/B english 2C/D maths, I'm debating what religion to do, whilst I strongly detest religion doing 2A/B I could get an easy high score to raise my TER. I missed out by a few percent from getting recommended for physics.

 

[Mic_128]

how do you think reading this made me feel? being accused of trying to ruin other peoples fun simply because of picking up a character :\ I once heard an IC's main say "no-one ever understands us " now I know what they mean. They're hated simply for using a character that isn't even in the top 10.

No, they hate the tactic that can't be stopped short of "don't get grabbed lolol"

And I can understand banning the technique if people aren't going to turn up at a tournament because of it. It's not something that skill can improve against. I could be combo-ing you, doing amazing mindagmes, get you to 120%, ready to kill, and then you grab me and all I have done was worthless. It's demoralizing.

It's got nothing to do with you or IC's in general, just that infinite.

 

[C~Dog]

Cgs are gonna be banned in Melbourne cos of attila xDDDD


oh noooooooes

 

[Corpsecreate]

We're in Australia, our metagame and our level of play is nothing compared to them. The tier list is reflective on the top level of play. Meaning, if a Toon Link is winning, you guys have a lot, A LOT of room for improvement. (NO offense intended, because it stands for ALL of Australia.)

I've yet to see a video of US players where I envy (sort of the right word?) their level of gameplay. Every video (as in 100% of the videos) I have seen I am able to point out many (by many I mean at least 1 every 10 seconds ) 'mistakes', 'poor judegment', 'bad timing' and just 'bad ideas'. The problem is that the perception of gameplay is based on the wrong thing. Its based on "how many tournaments have they had? How many entrants were there? How much research was done?". This is a flawed system of comparing metagames.

I could explain why 3+2 = 5 to a human in under a minute but it would take me infinite time to explain it to a cat. How do I compare the basic mathematical addition skill of the cat and the human? By how much time I spent teaching them or by how well they can add numbers? When comparing metagames, I dont care about tournament numbers, I dont care about post count. The only thing that actually matters is how well they play in a match and there is nothing I've seen from the US or anywhere else that makes them so high and mighty compared to anyone else I have fought against. A simple example is this Santi fellow (considered one of the top Toon Link players), ive seen videos of him in tournaments and friendlies and some of the stuff he does is just noobish yet he is still one of 'the best'...for some reason.

When it comes to the Ice Climber discussion, I think the main issue is that theres 2 options and neither of them are good.

1. Ban IC Chain Grab.
2. Dont Ban it.

The problem is that without their chain grab, they are pretty bad and would go down quite a bit in the tier list I think but then on the other end, with a perfected IC player, 1 grab = 1 stock. Now people say "dont get grabbed" as a counter to their chain grab but please, if your not a character that can outcamp IC and are forced to approach them then you will get grabbed (assuming the IC player knows how to play the game).

NOTE: Only got the final optional insane hard boss in Star Ocean 4 to go

 

[lain]

The metagame here in the states has advanced farther due to 3 reasons:

1. We have more players.
2. We have more pro players.
3. We have more tournaments.

These are the three things that advance the metagame.

It's not hard to avoid the grab, and it's VERY hard to consistently cg to death. Here, the top IC metagame is displayed and it's apparent that IC's are clearly not broken, seeing as the only IC players who do marginally well are Meep and I.

Banning something simply because you're whining is not what makes a player better. It's learning how to get around obstacles. That includes MK, getting grabbed, and beating better players then you.

l2p.

 

[Jupz]

Excatly lain, and I've changed my mind about the issue of being pidgeonholed into playing a certain way. IC's aren't the only thing in the game that forces you to change your playstyle. Falco's lasers, snakes grenades, etc. If you aren't willing to do that, you can counterpick a character, or you can lose.

As lain said, were going to screw up in tourney so most times it might not even be a 0-death. The american metagame has reached this point and progressed and they can deal with the IC's now.

The amount of work required to learn the IC's and do well>the amount of work required to beat them.

As lain said, if you really want to get better, why would you ban them?


edit: holy crap 90% in english trav? thats crazy i was the top average in our class with 81% most people were getting 60's.

also alzi 2c maths is ridiculous, go 3a/b. well thats still ridiculously easy but maths specialist is a fair way harder then 3a.
also im glad we dont have to do religion. only subject were forced to do is english

 

[Shaya]

Sorry if my last post came off as rude, it definitely had arrogance to it, and I apologise.

America is superior.
I used to think like Corpse as well, oh "they make that mistake, they did this nooby thing", "I'll do well in the United States because I can see this".

I got 65th at Genesis and 17th at Evo. Do you think that was because I just arrived and was 'great'?
No. And whilst Evo was 1/3rd of the size of Genesis, I got -a lot- better inbetween genesis and evo as well.
I got better because "I can see this" and the amount of EFFORT I put into catching up. Hall, a pretty awesome Snake (13th at evo, better than me at genesis, gets top 8 regularly in californian tournaments) started off with 3 stocking me; hell just about EVERY AMERICAN started off with 3 stocking me. At evo I fought him in bracket and took first match off of him with my Marth, in like 2 weeks I went from getting 3 stocked/***** into actually BEATING this guy; and then I lost the next two matches (no johns, he was a better player - BUT I switched to Dedede and suicided 2nd match and got pwned the third). To prove further, before going to the United States I fought Snake was Marth's hardest match up, I was losing to Snake's in Australia who only did grenade countering and ftilt; not only did I learn to beat Snakes in the US (and I BEAT A LOT OF THEM) but I am now currently of the opinion that Marth and Snake is even, maybe slightly in Marth's favour. I went from thinking a match up is stupidly HARD to WINNING THEM due to perserverance
I cannot fathom Perth being able to do any better than I did upon my arrival to the US. And whilst Corpse, like myself, would most likely have the ability to catch up, I would say even in a month he wouldn't be able to take matches off of high level prominant players.
One of the last few matches I played in the US was against Mew2King, about 10 in a row. He dismantled me WORSE than any other player did like when I first arrived there, even after all THAT effort.

Perth's bias in this I hope is obvious, but if it's for the betterment of your scene which is mostly secluded from others; go ahead.
But like myself and Snake, I think Perth can overcome ICs. Even though Lain took a set off of M2K at apex, in the loser's finals he lost 3-0 (right?), at Evo they played many friendlies that I saw; M2K not only did not really ever get grabbed, I think he won all or most of those matches.

Sure it's demoralising that you're getting the character to 120% and they grab you, "gg"; but I think the US taught me well that it's never an excuse, you messed up spacing and you paid for it. Ice Climbers being apart of the scene develops something extremely important to the players there: SPACING. SPACING THAT WILL HELP YOU IN EVERY MATCH UP.

I got to play Fiction's Ice Climbers a bit whilst in the US. Fiction being a Wario main is a very underrated ICs user; who's precision with the back/down throw infinite is close to unrivaled. I lost like every match except one where I used Ike for the lulz - I enjoyed the challenge because WHEN I GOT GRABBED it's because I OBVIOUSLY ****ed up my spacing. Even though my Marth got ***** by his ICs in like every match, it could swing backwards and forwards between who was leading - And I was leading when I didn't make mistakes. If I strive to never make OBVIOUS mistakes that weren't "mind gamed into" I would have done better against M2K. Even then, playing M2K was inspiring, because nothing compares to how much he destroyed me, and I was almost overwhelmed with happiness when towards the end I actually started taking STOCK OFF OF HIM; because I started making less mistakes, thinking better; of course it was an uphill battle the entire time, but I was constantly trying to climb it.

If the Perth scene does not have the motivation to reach the peak of the mountain, then there's not much point in your regular 'meets' being tournaments at all.

 

[Jupz]

Excatly, simply we gotta get better. You guys said you wanna get better, well lets do it :|

(No, they hate the tactic that can't be stopped short of "don't get grabbed lolol")

This is similar to advice Isai and Azen used to give "don't jump into the ****" "don't get hit", people shrugged them off and now people are realizing how good the advice is.

If you're spacing isn't good enough or you're not smart enough and you get grabbed every stock low percent, you deserve to get infinited to death. Whats the difference between losing to IC's and losing to a snake for example. Mic, you say in an imaginary situation you get them to 120% etc, and that will happen with the IC's because without their infinite, they are easily beatable. Their infinite is what makes them viable. And please don't be as dumb to say "but theres no chance against the IC's" because by using IC's (ignoring any matchups) people are giving you more of a chance to win then by using snake. A loss is a loss. If you lost against the IC's, you were going to lose against the snake anyway (ignoring any matchup problems lol dedede).

don't get grabbed. now i dunno why i spent all this time making countless debate points when i coulda just said that from the beginning :|

noone here has really put in the effort (as shaya was talking about) to beating the IC's. but wait... why should we put in EFFORT when we could simply ban it?

 

[Vlade]

Holy crap, I've been missing out on some hot debate.

Yeah, I'm back guys Got back 6am and just went straight into the shower for 40 mins (Havent had one in 12 days or so) and just went straight to bed.

Looks like I have some catching up to do

EDIT: I notice that people have been trying to organise a tournament.

Leave it to the expert

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My take on the Ice Climbers Infinite:

Firstly, it is important to recognise the difference between DDD's infinite and IC's infinite. The IC's infinite is SITUATIONAL, because it requires that Nana is present. Without Nana, the Ice Climbers cannot infinite. DDD, on the other hand, does not require a stupid Nana to be present for his infinite.

The solution: learn the matchup. I hear people don't want to play gay or do anything 'cheap', but banning the IC's infinite is only hindering Perth's potential in improving. Separate Nana, gimp her, profit. Don't get grabbed. It's these things that you must enforce against the Ice Climbers if you want to win. Saying that the infinite makes the game 'less enjoyable' is not enough to warrant a ban. The criteria for a ban is that it seriously overcentralises the metagame, and right now, the IC's infinite doesn't. Only 2 people in the world can CG consistently in TOURNAMENT, those being Lain and Meep. Believe me, its so darn NERVE-RACKING to chaingrab in tournament. I probably got like 2 true grab = stock deaths last tournament, while others just racked up a lot of damage or I completely screwed up

It's already been said, but learn to space. It's likely that you'll probably get grabbed at least once in a match, but with good spacing you should be able to avoid getting grabbed like 3 times in 8 mins.

That said, I only plan to use them if I need them lol, I could go all falco/MK/Marth and still achieve the same results imo, but there are times when I'll be forced to CP them (e.g. against another IC's user lol).

You could always pick up IC's if you don't like being infinited But of course, you guys all wanna play the characters you enjoy playing most.

I might add more when I have time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Organising a tournament for 23rd August

 

[Jupz]

Ok, vlade just beat the one remaining point on the pro-ban side, which was that you can't distinguish between the IC's and Dedede's/Marths infinites. Now we know that

-The Ice Climbers infinites aren't broken (obvious from the start or why aren't they number 1?)
-you can't pick them up and abuse them
-they can be easily seperated from other characters infinites
-play "gay" or counterpick another character. or lose.

IDC if the D3 infinites are banned, its near impossible to avoid his infinites with his grab range. but the ice climbers is tiny. And Marths on Lucas ness idc either. But cmon, the ice climbers infinites? The point is, even with their infinites, there still only in A tier. the different infinites are easily distinguished. its even debatable if D3's infinites should be banned.

We've only had one tourney with Vlade using the Ice Climbers a lot, and he still didn't win. He got the same position he would have gotten if he had used Falco throughout the tourney as he has proven before.

That was ONE tourney. People should be getting better at avoiding grabs. I can understand for bowser trav, thats one of his worst matchups, but you second G&W and he does fine against the Ice climbers, with a small advantage.

Infiniting with the Ice Climbers isn't "playing gay", although in my mind I think everything should be allowed and I would be just fine with versing ice climbers infinites. even more then that; I actually LOVE versing extremely defensive MK's, ice climbers, olimars, falcos and other supposedly "gay" characters. I love the thought that goes into playing against them. Anyway back to my original point, the ice climbers infinite chaingrabs aren't "playing gay", thats how the ice climbers are meant to be played. they would be low tier without them. IT IS A NECESSARY ABILITY FOR THE CHARACTER TO REMAIN TOURNEY VIABLE, unlike other ones which I said I wouldn't mind if were banned, eg. d3s, marths

it is also much harder to pull off and requres months of practice (at least it did for me).

alzi, thats like banning neutrals for olimar or pikachu. I don't think you understand, the ice climbers aren't the best character in the game and don't need special rules. banning the infinites is like reducing olimar to one pikmin for the whole match. even with the infinites, they still aren't S tier.

banning the ice climbers infinites after ONE TOURNEY is taking the easy way out, and im glad Vlade will never ban them for any of his tourneys. learn to fight them.

we all want to have a larger scene, this isn't the way to go about it and will definately discourage out of state visitors.

look deeper then the surface. the ice climbers chaingrabs are just a tool. same as Mks tornado. same as snakes grenades. same as pikas neutral b. same as samus Zair.

people just view them as "gay" because they can't do anything while being infinited.

sorry if I came off as a little harsh, im just fairly frustrated because I spent months learning the IC's infinites now people are talking about banning them

IMO IC's chain grab just takes too long to learna and anyone that is able to pull them off should. Even though at the last tourney I was knocked into loser's in first round because of an IC player, it is rage worthy the things they can do. But there is one simple way to avoid the chain grab. Once you're grabbed yell at the top of your lungs ***** and hope they are childish enough to laugh and mess up their concentration.

Anyway, next tourney...
1. Practice Ness a **** load
2. Beat people with him and make them cry
3. ???
4. Profit (literally)

Dayum Alzi you beat me to the idea of Ness ditto.
I relook at this and yes I find infinants very unfair but there are ways around it, use projectiles and don't get close. I'm sure everyone has a character who can use projectiles.
The main reason I'm against it is suddenly everyone wants to play them, which is annoying but what can you do? I guess if we go to ban IC's infinant we should stop Falco's/Snakes spamming and camping against certain characters since it's a major advantage. Or Diddy's bananas since they're unfair.
So I say for now we leave it unbanned unless it becomes that everyone uses it, then action should be taken.

- Woo Woo Woo! You know it!

My message is in the green

Anyone for MK dittos this tourney? I loooove them sooo much lol

Also I don't understand why Mic? The ice climbers infinites aren't that gamebreaking compared to the other things I listed.

Snakes grenades force you to air camp the whole match anyway, same with Falcos lasers. They create a massive advantage by forcing the opponent to approach. Sure, the Ice Climbers have a decent camping ability, but they are worse at punishing approaches because of Nana. And look who is needed for CG's? Nana

Btw gnasch my maths specialist teacher wants to know if we have any friends from other schools that are doing maths specialist and he wants to know how much stuff you guys are using you calculators for? Cause we never use them were wondering what other schools are doing.

banning ic's infinite is silly. They take so long to learn, trust me ive seen glenn learn them. Hes awesome at them now but it took months. You shouldnt take all that hard work and time put into learning them away from someone.

Also even the best ice climbers in the world, i.e lain and meep cant always pull of the chain grabs. Look them up on you tube. Yes if you get grabbed a lot of the time you will loose a stock but they do drop the chain grabs quite often, thats just how difficult it is to pull of, even for the best.

Most people just say ban ice climbers infinite because they dont know how to play against them. People neared to learn that rather then just banning ice climbers infinite you need to learn how to play agaisnt them.

When glenn first learnt the inifinites i hated it because i kept loosing 100% of the time until i realized playing agaisnt ice climbers was like playing agaisnt any other character and i had to change my sratergy. Now when i play agaisnt him i win probably 40% of the time and he is absolutly amazing at desyning them and pulling of the infinites.

Also ice climbers have one of the worst grabs in the game the reach is terrible. If ice climbers where as broken as everyone says and their infinites should be banned why arent ice climbers at the top of the tier list, tournamnt rankings and why arent meep and lain winning every single tournament they enter? Because people have learnt that ice climbers are just like any other character and have learnt how to play against them and win.

Its been said a million times before but i will say it again you just need to learn how to not get grabbed. Honestly if you cant then you deserve to get *****

lol yea i know was a bit late dont really check forums much, but i would just hate to see IC infinate banned so i had to post lol. I think their the most misunderstood character in the game. IC vs MK is a 50:50 according to metaknight board match ups i think they actually are one of the better characters agaisnt MK, specially after watching lain agaisnt M2K. But yea they do get ***** by snake lol. Anyway i dont really mind i just hope it doesnt get banned

Wow glenn uses IC's too? Sweet :D

I'm not sure you understand Bob, and I don't know how many times I have to say this, but even with their infinites the Ice Climbers ARE STILL ONLY A TIER. they suck without the infinites. It is like banning the IC's because no-one will use them without the infinites. Which is excatly like banning EVERY character above them on the tier list.

Then it does actually come to down to how easy it is to pick up and abuse. the ice climbers infinites are the opposite to this. they are the hardest thing I have attempted to learn besides falcos phantasm cancel. if you want to pick them up and abuse them.... go ahead and try to learn them in a few days? if they were that easy to abuse, why isn't the american smash scene dominated with IC's?? either they know how to deal with them or they are too hard to learn, neither of which is a problem. its far easier to deal with the IC's and beat them then it is to use them. banning them is simply taking the easy way out instead of learning to fight them.

the next point is they can be counterpicked by characters and stages. they have disadvantages. MK has no disadvantages, either stage or character (i strongly disagree with the MK ban aswell, but thats a topic for another day).

we are BEHIND other places in our metagame, not ahead. america was at our position in the metagame ages ago, and they got around the problem. THIS SHOWS THAT AS OUR METAGAME PROGRESSES, WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO DEAL WITH THE INFINITES.

I'm dissapointed that we have to have this discussion. allowing the IC's infinites leads to a far more healthy community, rather then effectively banning a character that isn't even top tier.

every time I say infinite in this topic I mean the IC's infinites. I am not fussed about D3's and marths infintes. vlade said a few months back on msn he was thinking of unbanning d3s infinite for his next tourney.

That may be your opinion Ric, but keep in mind the SBR is far more educated then any of us and therefore is the most accurate we can get at this time.

Read what I wrote after, don't cut bits out. "MK has no disadvantages, either stage or character" he has no matchup disadvantages and does fine at every stage, I didn't say there was absolutely no disadvantages

Alzi has got this right. Because we have to use our brains a little more while playing, people are talking about banning the infinites. Its the wrong way to develop as a community. But alzi IC's infinites is better then falcos chaingrab

Thing with Falco is that at higher level play, with better spacing (some; not all) characters literally force Falco to stop racking up damage through lasers/jabs etc.
Look at SK92 vs M2K at genesis. For Meta Knight it is very easy to apply damage and pressure whilst completely spacing away from the grab, whilst grabs do occur, it is not a staple part of high level play against MK, relying it on gets you severely damaged, even stocks lost.

Honestly, I'm not too sure about Toon Link (if that's who you still main); with retreating air dodges into zairs; boomerang infront covering a return, and a bomb in hand, I'd say it's extremely difficult for a Falco to grab you. To top it off, as Toon Link you can explode 3 or 4 bombs and suddenly not be suspectable to the grab (up to 30%ish).

Any questions or videos you have, I'm glad to help with.

Oh and about ICs infinites...
They have enough hard-ish match ups
including ROB, Snake, Toon Link, IKE!!! yeah..

Remember: Spacing is your friend.

A tier.
1. Meta Knight
2. Snake
3. Wario
4. Falco
5. Diddy Kong
6. King Dedede

B tier.
7. Marth
8. Mr. Game & Watch
9. Pikachu
10. Olimar
11. Ice Climbers

Ice Climbers are ranked 11th WITH their chain grab. And you guys are debating whether the 11th ranked character in the game as aspects worthy of a ban?

Why we're at it, let's ban the ten other character above Ice Climbers and they're chain grabs.

If you're good enough to beat Ice Climbers anyway the chain grab means nothing. Learn this funny thing called "spacing". Ice Climbers grab range suck, and them getting a grab at all means they deserve the infinite.

Learn to fight them. Don't just ban something because you cbf learning to fight it.

@mic saying it's in the wrong spot...

We're in Australia, our metagame and our level of play is nothing compared to them. The tier list is reflective on the top level of play. Meaning, if a Toon Link is winning, you guys have a lot, A LOT of room for improvement. (NO offense intended, because it stands for ALL of Australia.)

Hes perfectly fine where he is IMO. And let me make one more argument before I let this go.

Bob, you mention "what would stop you from just getting frustrated and picking up a character who can infinite_?"

what I really want answered is WHY?

if you were a frustrated scrub, who was tired of losing, why would you pick up the ice climbers when you could pick up... king dedede, wario, marth, pikachu, olimar, g&w, snake... or even Metaknight? all these characters are easier to learn and "abuse" (if you want to call it that, I just call it general use of the character) then the ice climbers, and are more effective when abused. why would you bother with months of learning the ice climbers chaingrabs and desynchs when you could be at a higher level with Metaknight or DDD or G&W within a week, and place better.

lets put ourselves into the mind of this imaginary, angry scrub. you're tired of losing. which character do you choose to main?

ice climbers are one choice. but WHY on earth would you choose the ice climbers, spend ages learning the chaingrab (which is only a small factor of the game, as you won't be getting that many grabs off) and desynching and stuff.

then take a look up a little, at DDD. he has a bigger reward for a MUCH smaller amount of effort. hes fairly easy and has a fairly low learning curve. he is easier to learn, and when this small amount of effort is applied, becomes a better character then the ice climbers after months of practice.

you then look right up to the top of the tier list. metaknight. metaknight has several abusive moves that do not have to be used out of a grab with a tiny range, he sees amazing quickness combined with being hard to punish.

which character do you choose? excatly, not the ice climbers.
(ok we can stop pretending were the scrub now)
now we've gotten over the fact that the ice climbers arent easy or effective when you try to pick them up and abuse them. anyone that still thinks otherwise, start using them now and we'll have an MM next tourney ^_^ the other main argument is that they "detract from the metagame".

first off, i would like to say they help the metagame because they have an even matchup with MK, helping the metagame and stopping his dominance.

but thats not my main point.

remember those whiny scrubs in the general discussion that always complain about people like pit and wolf? im sure we all thought (at least I did) those characters were broken at one point. at low levels of play, they "detract from the metagame". at low levels of play, they are unbeatable: there is simply no way past pits arrow spamming except to roll straight into one of his smashes, and wolfs smashes and laser are broken. there is no way past them.

look at the scrubs now. i laugh reading the posts they make and remember when I was like them. all it takes is a few weeks, and it is possible for pits arrow spamming and wolfs smash spamming to be combated. all it takes is a little thought.

look at the people over in america. they might laugh at us for wanting to ban the IC infinites, because we look like the players complaining over pit and wolf. they laugh because they see such simple ways around it as we do with the pit and wolf scenario.

let me use another analogy. lets assume our smash scene is in the 3rd dimension (ie. what we live in). the pit and wolf complainers are in the second dimension. after a few weeks they progress and come into the third dimension, seeing that in fact there are easy ways around the problem. assume the top players in the US are in the fourth dimension. what we see as a flat problem, they can see ways around. what the pit players see as a square, we see as a cube. what we see as a cube, the US players see as a tesserract (a 4 dimensional version of a cube ). they can see ways around the problem. this means that in a few weeks when we progress (not saying it will only take us a few weeks to get as good as the US players cause i know thats not true) we will see ways around them and think we were stupid for even thinking about banning them.

we also have the best player as a toon link here in perth who also uses snake if im not mistaken, and ric has an excellent rob. so we can counter them, as shaya said.

for the next tournament, I dont care about stages, but I think green greens and yoshis island melee should be unbanned. as an incentive, green greens is crap for IC's
why green greens should be a counterpick

though I will understand if you want it banned because I main dedede.

also YI melee, I am writing a massive write up and have done heaps of research on it, so I will post what I know later tonight or tomorrow.

edit: swordsaint hit what i was trying to say in my previous post. our two posts should have cleared up any misconceptions. NO PLACE IN THE WORLD has the IC's infinite banned.

playing differently according to a match-up is skill

if you can do that the icies deserve to win

Marteh: do your research before you speak

wario has the advantage over snake 6:4

Edit: sorry that sounded arrogant, didn't mean to

you guys aren't competitive enough

this is a competitive scene, and being pigeonholed (get ***** ) in to adopting certain rules because certain players don't like certain styles or can't play to a certain standard is a poor effort guys

obviously your rules don't affect me, but hey, I like debating

have fun by being competitive, and playing your own way, but don't say "change the rules so my way of playing has a chance of winning"

simply said...get better.

The ice climbers infinites can be easily distinguished from other characters infinites. Ability does in fact matter, because as you said yourself otherwise anyone could pick them up and start infiniting. Lets distinguish it from some already banned infinites. Dedede's infinite is far easier to pull off, and is impossible to avoid due to his massive grab range. Marths infinite on lucas and ness is also incredibly easy for anyone to counterpick Marth to do. Its not really making an exception because the IC's infinite is in a different class. Also it is a much larger part of their metagame then D3s or Marths who still function fine without it. Banning it is effectively like banning the IC's, which as swordsaint said you may as well ban every character above them on the tier list.


Nice point about turning off newer visitors, we could introduce a soft ban on using IC's against newer players, I know I would never use them against a new player unless they were already proficient in the game. I would always put the development of the scene here above winning a match or two, but banning the IC's CG would have no effect on more people coming in and may deter more hardcore gamers.

About having to plank and space; you should be spacing anyway, the IC's just makes it a bigger risk if you screw up; however if you seperate them, its basically a stock against the IC's anyway, you can gimp nana easy then its just Popo which is also easy. Seperating them happens about as much as the infinite, more or less depending on character, which allows for easy ways to kill them at low percentages, similar to the infinite itself. As swordsaint said, if you allow us to get the grab, why should we not be allowed to infinite? Ice Climbers have one of the shortest grab ranges next to ganon, and they slide whenever you hit there shield so you would have to horribly space an attack to get grabbed. And all you need to do is hit them once to seperate them, and have a good chance of taking a stock.

About planking - there are characters that can deal with the IC's without planking and that can put them on the defensive themselves; IE snake, toon link, rob. counterpick one of them. you don't have to play gay to win against them using those characters. basically the same against someone like MK, except theres NOONE you can counterpick that gives you the advantage; with snake, maybe one or two characters, tops.

Also, how can you not see how tier list placing affects everything? If the IC's infinites truly were broken, wouldn't they be first? Placing only 11th shows its not broken and is perfectly beatable without having to resort to such tactics. MK, DDD, and other characters force people to counterpick all the time.

Also, whats wrong with using it if you know how to use it? If you've spent the time to learn it, you should be entitled to use it. If it breaks the game, why aren't IC's in first place on the tier list?



this post is sooooo true. i feel as though people are playing simply to catch up and have a merry old time; sure this is good and fun, but wheres the competive spirit? we wonder why were so far behind? no-one is trying hard to improve, and when a chance comes up like beating the IC's infinites, we shove it away.

the best ice climbers in the world "lain" placed 8th at genesis

he didn't win because the other 7 players were better

so just ban lain from perth
/jk post over

jupz i think i love you, you're good with the explaining and stuff

i was gonna say the same thing, your excellent at explaining

also mic trav is right if it goes off the stage its a CG not an infinite.

also trav the infinites are easily distinguished read my long post

i think both these pretty much sum up the whole debate, mainly the last one.

I understand exactly where your coming from Bob about the scene growing but i dont think keeping IC infinite would stop the growth, and if it did begin to affect the growth i think as Jupz said maybe it should become sort of an unspoken rule to not infinite scrubs to death lol

At high levels of play, the way the bracket is set up can have a huge impact on who places where.

Atomsk (DDD) lost to Z (Pikachu) at GENESIS like first round. In a more general sense, snakes who meet DDD's in brackets will more often then not lose, things like that.

If I had met the diddy, the two falcos, or the THREE metaknights who placed above me, things would have been a little different.

OMG lain posted in this thread hai lain :D

LOL at the I like Pie question :D

Sorry if I came off that way Bob, I know you've had WAY more experience with the Perth scene then my meagre two tournaments, and I love the way people joke around and have fun, from what other aussies are writing when they went to america people were throwing their controllers against the wall and stuff, and I'm glad we got to have this debate without any flames being thrown like in the MK ban thread :|

I understand that there weren't many of you guys last year, and I love the idea of smashfests, and I really appreciate you trying to build up the scene

With the IC's debate, well we've both gone as far as we can go with our points and I guess all it boils down to now is personal opinion.

Although I don't see how the results of the poll will change anything, as you will probably ban them at all your tourneys and Vlade will probably allow them at all his no matter the results of the poll And as I said before, banning the infinite is like banning the IC's because they would be low tier without it, and noone will use them without the infinites

I think the most appropriate course of action when it comes to texture hacks:

If one player is uncomfortable with the textures, remove the SD card; change character colors to another then back (if it matters) and restart the match.
People bringing wiis with custom stage or character textures that reduce visability on tourney legal stages should 'know better'.

P.S all for Game and Watch's Cyan color being switched as tourney standard; that ****s unfair on FD/Lylat.

obligatorycopypasta

if IC's don't have the ability to kill from one grab, they will drop to low tier. In melee they could wavedash, actually had setups INTO grabs, and had far more killing power and edgegaruding ability. In Brawl, they have bad running speed, bad priority coupled with bad range, no setups into grabs, and have very little edgegaruding ability now.

You're making the character worthless by banning or limiting the grab.

Actually cheap in just about every definition is the opposite of scrub. Banning something which doesnt break the game, or complaining about it IS the definition of scrub.

People will use the Ice Climbers and without chaingrabs. Chu Dat in the united states is attempting to prove that ICs can be viable without INFINITES; but I'm unaware of him not using any chain grab what so ever; he isn't winning tournaments with this self-restriction though.

Ice Climbers do not invalidate any characters from the game at all, whilst having an 'almost impossible to lose' match up with ganondorf, Ganon already loses to everyone...

I would doubt Vlade's ability with the ICs grab is as precise as people who STILL LOSE to other characters. You say infinites... Is he actually doing the dthrow to bthrow infinite from every grab? Or is he just chaingrabbing you to a ledge and attempting a spike or fsmash?

I can do all the infinites and I think Vlade can too.

Also Lain and shaya, two incredibly knowledgeable people have said that it shouldn't be banned. They know more then us about the issue, and they know that the scene works better with the infinites unbanned from personal experience. Theres a reason the best players opinions count more then others.

Sure its our scene, but there scene has progressed past ours and their just sharing their experience. Advice from the best Ice Climbers main in the world and Australias most knowledgeable (and one of the best, if not the best) players is nothing to brush aside.

No other place in the world has their infinites banned, and thats for a reason. Are we really going to stoop the level of casual friendlies with friends?

The american metagame has progressed past ours; you see them using different tactics, and tactics that work here might not work over there. The actual metagame might be similar, but they are playing at a higher level of it.

how do you think reading this made me feel? being accused of trying to ruin other peoples fun simply because of picking up a character :\ I once heard an IC's main say "no-one ever understands us " now I know what they mean. They're hated simply for using a character that isn't even in the top 10.

You know I didn't mean to insult anyone, but its true. Why do the SBR get to decide all the brawl related rules? If a random scrub with 4 posts comes into a matchup discussion and posts something, people are likely not to listen. What happens if the best player in the world comes in and posts the same thing? People are going to listen to him, because he has more experience.

This happens in real life all the time. You're more likely to listen to a leading scientist then a kid off the street.

I just want you guys to know when I said "others" I wasn't referring to anyone in here, or anyone at all. I was just making a broad statement and I'm sorry if I hurt anyone.

This has been taken too far, lets just stop the debate before anyone gets hurt and start a poll. However, I still don't see how we have to do this considering no other places in the world have it banned and their metagame turned out fine.

The metagame here in the states has advanced farther due to 3 reasons:

1. We have more players.
2. We have more pro players.
3. We have more tournaments.

These are the three things that advance the metagame.

It's not hard to avoid the grab, and it's VERY hard to consistently cg to death. Here, the top IC metagame is displayed and it's apparent that IC's are clearly not broken, seeing as the only IC players who do marginally well are Meep and I.

Banning something simply because you're whining is not what makes a player better. It's learning how to get around obstacles. That includes MK, getting grabbed, and beating better players then you.

l2p.

Excatly lain, and I've changed my mind about the issue of being pidgeonholed into playing a certain way. IC's aren't the only thing in the game that forces you to change your playstyle. Falco's lasers, snakes grenades, etc. If you aren't willing to do that, you can counterpick a character, or you can lose.

As lain said, were going to screw up in tourney so most times it might not even be a 0-death. The american metagame has reached this point and progressed and they can deal with the IC's now.

The amount of work required to learn the IC's and do well>the amount of work required to beat them.

As lain said, if you really want to get better, why would you ban them?


edit: holy crap 90% in english trav? thats crazy i was the top average in our class with 81% most people were getting 60's.

also alzi 2c maths is ridiculous, go 3a/b. well thats still ridiculously easy but maths specialist is a fair way harder then 3a.
also im glad we dont have to do religion. only subject were forced to do is english

Sorry if my last post came off as rude, it definitely had arrogance to it, and I apologise.

America is superior.
I used to think like Corpse as well, oh "they make that mistake, they did this nooby thing", "I'll do well in the United States because I can see this".

I got 65th at Genesis and 17th at Evo. Do you think that was because I just arrived and was 'great'?
No. And whilst Evo was 1/3rd of the size of Genesis, I got -a lot- better inbetween genesis and evo as well.
I got better because "I can see this" and the amount of EFFORT I put into catching up. Hall, a pretty awesome Snake (13th at evo, better than me at genesis, gets top 8 regularly in californian tournaments) started off with 3 stocking me; hell just about EVERY AMERICAN started off with 3 stocking me. At evo I fought him in bracket and took first match off of him with my Marth, in like 2 weeks I went from getting 3 stocked/***** into actually BEATING this guy; and then I lost the next two matches (no johns, he was a better player - BUT I switched to Dedede and suicided 2nd match and got pwned the third). To prove further, before going to the United States I fought Snake was Marth's hardest match up, I was losing to Snake's in Australia who only did grenade countering and ftilt; not only did I learn to beat Snakes in the US (and I BEAT A LOT OF THEM) but I am now currently of the opinion that Marth and Snake is even, maybe slightly in Marth's favour. I went from thinking a match up is stupidly HARD to WINNING THEM due to perserverance
I cannot fathom Perth being able to do any better than I did upon my arrival to the US. And whilst Corpse, like myself, would most likely have the ability to catch up, I would say even in a month he wouldn't be able to take matches off of high level prominant players.
One of the last few matches I played in the US was against Mew2King, about 10 in a row. He dismantled me WORSE than any other player did like when I first arrived there, even after all THAT effort.

Perth's bias in this I hope is obvious, but if it's for the betterment of your scene which is mostly secluded from others; go ahead.
But like myself and Snake, I think Perth can overcome ICs. Even though Lain took a set off of M2K at apex, in the loser's finals he lost 3-0 (right?), at Evo they played many friendlies that I saw; M2K not only did not really ever get grabbed, I think he won all or most of those matches.

Sure it's demoralising that you're getting the character to 120% and they grab you, "gg"; but I think the US taught me well that it's never an excuse, you messed up spacing and you paid for it. Ice Climbers being apart of the scene develops something extremely important to the players there: SPACING. SPACING THAT WILL HELP YOU IN EVERY MATCH UP.

I got to play Fiction's Ice Climbers a bit whilst in the US. Fiction being a Wario main is a very underrated ICs user; who's precision with the back/down throw infinite is close to unrivaled. I lost like every match except one where I used Ike for the lulz - I enjoyed the challenge because WHEN I GOT GRABBED it's because I OBVIOUSLY ****ed up my spacing. Even though my Marth got ***** by his ICs in like every match, it could swing backwards and forwards between who was leading - And I was leading when I didn't make mistakes. If I strive to never make OBVIOUS mistakes that weren't "mind gamed into" I would have done better against M2K. Even then, playing M2K was inspiring, because nothing compares to how much he destroyed me, and I was almost overwhelmed with happiness when towards the end I actually started taking STOCK OFF OF HIM; because I started making less mistakes, thinking better; of course it was an uphill battle the entire time, but I was constantly trying to climb it.

If the Perth scene does not have the motivation to reach the peak of the mountain, then there's not much point in your regular 'meets' being tournaments at all.

Excatly, simply we gotta get better. You guys said you wanna get better, well lets do it :|

(No, they hate the tactic that can't be stopped short of "don't get grabbed lolol")

This is similar to advice Isai and Azen used to give "don't jump into the ****" "don't get hit", people shrugged them off and now people are realizing how good the advice is.

If you're spacing isn't good enough or you're not smart enough and you get grabbed every stock low percent, you deserve to get infinited to death. Whats the difference between losing to IC's and losing to a snake for example. Mic, you say in an imaginary situation you get them to 120% etc, and that will happen with the IC's because without their infinite, they are easily beatable. Their infinite is what makes them viable. And please don't be as dumb to say "but theres no chance against the IC's" because by using IC's (ignoring any matchups) people are giving you more of a chance to win then by using snake. A loss is a loss. If you lost against the IC's, you were going to lose against the snake anyway (ignoring any matchup problems lol dedede).

don't get grabbed. now i dunno why i spent all this time making countless debate points when i coulda just said that from the beginning :|

noone here has really put in the effort (as shaya was talking about) to beating the IC's. but wait... why should we put in EFFORT when we could simply ban it?

Holy crap, I've been missing out on some hot debate.

Yeah, I'm back guys Got back 6am and just went straight into the shower for 40 mins (Havent had one in 12 days or so) and just went straight to bed.

Looks like I have some catching up to do

EDIT: I notice that people have been trying to organise a tournament.

Leave it to the expert

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My take on the Ice Climbers Infinite:

Firstly, it is important to recognise the difference between DDD's infinite and IC's infinite. The IC's infinite is SITUATIONAL, because it requires that Nana is present. Without Nana, the Ice Climbers cannot infinite. DDD, on the other hand, does not require a stupid Nana to be present for his infinite.

The solution: learn the matchup. I hear people don't want to play gay or do anything 'cheap', but banning the IC's infinite is only hindering Perth's potential in improving. Separate Nana, gimp her, profit. Don't get grabbed. It's these things that you must enforce against the Ice Climbers if you want to win. Saying that the infinite makes the game 'less enjoyable' is not enough to warrant a ban. The criteria for a ban is that it seriously overcentralises the metagame, and right now, the IC's infinite doesn't. Only 2 people in the world can CG consistently in TOURNAMENT, those being Lain and Meep. Believe me, its so darn NERVE-RACKING to chaingrab in tournament. I probably got like 2 true grab = stock deaths last tournament, while others just racked up a lot of damage or I completely screwed up

It's already been said, but learn to space. It's likely that you'll probably get grabbed at least once in a match, but with good spacing you should be able to avoid getting grabbed like 3 times in 8 mins.

That said, I only plan to use them if I need them lol, I could go all falco/MK/Marth and still achieve the same results imo, but there are times when I'll be forced to CP them (e.g. against another IC's user lol).

You could always pick up IC's if you don't like being infinited But of course, you guys all wanna play the characters you enjoy playing most.

I might add more when I have time.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Organising a tournament for 23rd August

ok all the anti ban arguments for people to read and make up their minds

all the pro ban ones won't fit in this post so im double posting :o

 

[Jupz]

Infinites should be banned regardless_ IC is fine but the infinite CG is bannable in my eyes, much like D3's infinites etc_

Playing gay just gets you disliked, payed out, de - scened or beat up and i will have no qualms stopping anyone from entering a tourney if i feel they are going to spoil everybody elses enjoyment_

We are slowly demoralizing Sam enough to defeat him_

It's hard to not get grabbed Jupz as one trip can lead to a grab, goodbye stock. The only reason the IC's infinites aren't banned according to the SBR is because you can counterpick to avoid it though i disagree with this logic. First match with double blind character selection IC's win on a neutral, then sure you get to CP but even if you win they get the next CP and can just take you to FD.

Before I start I don't want to get inot a fight with someone over this I'm just refting my points. It's also funny that I was joking to begin with


One of the reasons they are only in A ier is because MK shuts them down so badly, also in no way whatsoever should D3's infinites ever be allowed.



It's not about how well Vlade placed with his IC's (besides Bob made him feel bad for using them anyway ) but more about how they detract from the game itsel and it's competitive aspect.


I in no way am debating for the ban for personal gain, G&W does well against them as you said, I'm completely unbiased here you should never let personal feelings interfere anyway.

It doesn't matter if it's necessary for them to be tourney viable, we ban things so the game can be determined by player skill a much as possible, IDC is banned because otherwise it would be who can hit first then stall, planking is banned for the same reason and we ban infinites for the same reason they detract from the value of player skill in the match, sure it might take a while to learn but it if a mid level player mastered the IC's infiinites it wouldn't matter if they were terrible at all other aspects as grabbing 3 tims is all they need to do to win, and would easily beat other players of the same skil and perhaps slightly higher players.


Degree of difficulty should never be a factor in deciding if something should be banned., we aren't taking the easy way out either, we're trying to make the game more fair the easy way out would be to air camp the whole match with MK.

We don't really have a problem here so I don't mind either way but thats just my opinion.

that's like allowing a shotgun in a sword fight because they're both "weapons"

Debates pretty muh done your a bit late, also they arent high tier or winning tournaments is because the abundances of MK's and less so Snakes. I've said it before degree of difficulty should never be a factor in deciding if something should be banned.

Just to re-iterate my comments before_ This post sums it up fairly accurately_ I stand by my comments because if we allowed ALL infinites to be used in game then what would stop you from just getting frustrated and picking up a character who can infinite_?

The fact is that infinites ARE banned because it takes one grab or move to basically cost you a stock_ You may as well throw away your controller and wait until the match is over_

You shouldn't be pigeonholed into choosing a certain character or being forced to camp purely to avoid a characters infinite_ It's not enjoyable to play against characters with infinites allowed and its less enjoyable to watch_ This game is meant to be competitive, enjoyable and fair_ Infinites are not fair because they guarantee you a kill once you are able to activate that infinite regardless of skill difficulty_ I basically look at it as cheating because the other player has no way at all of escaping said infinite_

IC is perfectly fine with their chain grab, i have no problems against that, but the infinite CG is completely unnecessary and i do not feel that it completely destroys their playstyle by not being able to use it_

The same situation arose with MK once he was seen as being the most powerful character ingame_ A majority of players where starting to choose him as their main and this became a large issue in the Brawl scene, leading to soft bans in particular states/ countries_ The issue is that the scene becomes completely boring and unenjoyable if everyone is forced to play as or against the same few characters purely because they are regarded as OP or have infinites_

I don't care how hard it may be to land an infinite but if that's all you have to rely on to win then you are pathetic in my eyes and have no real 'skill' if you feel you cannot defeat an opponent without it_ This scene is about it's community and the enjoyment of versing each other competitively_ Infinites do not allow for completely competitive gameplay and detract from the overall enjoyment people have at tournaments_

Vlade realised that people were not happy about the IC infinites and chose to play other characters that allowed for more competitiveness_ For this i respect him for because he put his community before himself_ Everybody else should think about this too before you completely commit to arguing about keeping a completely unfair move such as infinites in tournaments_

Shouldnt we just ban IC infinites until like 50%? Theres good points on both sides but regardless of how long it takes to learn an infinite is still an infinite is it not?

Jupz i adressed some of your points previously adn will quote your long post later when I can be bothered

Alzi it should not be allowed if it's in the game. Items, IDC etc.

As for the SBR they are knowledgeable but they aren't the gods of all that is Brawl besides theres only 1 of them whos knowledgeable about our scene and he is in favour of the IC's ban, our beloved Mic

Jupz you know i have said that i don't mind Green Greens and Yoshi's Island being allowable but they will have the (D) rule to them_

That's fine about counterpicking stages and characters, i understand completely as i chose zelda against Vlade and nearly beat him in our second match by practically camping and planking, which in turn bores me with having to play like that just so i can avoid being infinited_ I can handle the standard CG but if someone gets the grab and knows the infinite then you know how it ends_

You explained that there are other characters that are easier to use than IC and more effective_ This is true, but think if a 'scrub' comes to a tournament and gets infinited by a competent IC player or CG to death, then some people quit the game on the basis they believe it's 'unbalanced or OP'_ Everybody has seen this happen on numerous occasions and could possibly reverse our scene growth and instead lead it back to the old days of 8 person tournament_

Is that what you want honestly_? I know those people who quit based on inexperience are missing out but i know that forcing players to pick up a character they may not want to play or being forced to plank and camp to win a match would gradually make our tournaments turn into a tier ***** fest_ TBH if everyone was forced to play a select top 5 characters in a game full of say 20 characters, i would quit because i don't see any variety in the game, let alone balance_

I understand perfectly well that the infinite can be avoided but it pigeonholes players into a playstyle or character selection which i see as being detrimental to our tournament growth_ I don't see how bringing the topic about people once thinking Pit and Wolf were OP because people should be aware from Melee days that Brawls metagame had not yet been fully developed or well into its development_

Every smart player understands perfectly well what having an infinite gives you and how quickly it can turn a match_ This is why other characters infinites were banned so i don't see why there should be an exception for one character because 'oh there not very high on the tier list, it's no big deal' or 'they have a short grab range so just camp or 'space' them'_ I think everybody is well aware of spacing, and as for the tier list, you're saying that if the IC were higher on the tier list then this suddenly becomes an issue we should look at_? Regardless of tier placing, issues should be addressed_

As for Swordsaints comment about Sams TL_ I don't think we have issues because somebody playing a TL better then everyone (including Vlades textbook Falco)_ Are you basically insisting that we should all pick up higher tier characters in an attempt to beat a player who is plainly better than most_? Sam is capable of picking up most characters to their most potential but chooses to play TL_ I don't think Perth is as good as we could potentially be in comparison to the eastern states or even USA, but i don't think judging us because of the highest placed ranks character choice_

We're also not looking to ban the CG of IC only the infinite CG_ I have stated this in every post and making comments like 'why don't you just ban every other characters CG as well' shows me that you haven't read our comments well_ We can be ****ed dealing with it but once an infinite has landed then its GG, you should not be pigeonholed into a character choice or playstyle because it's an 'effective' way of dealing with something that could easily just be banned and allow more variety_

An infinite will always be an infinite once proven, i don't see how tier list placing or learning difficulty could change that_ People learning it proves its not impossible or so ridiculously difficult that someone with supersonic reflexes can only pull it off_ This can be achieved through practice and once you have the skill you will use it unless regulations are put in place_ Unless proven otherwise i stand strongly by my point_ AND yes i did ****ing plank and space against Vlades IC but it was boring, lame and completely turned me off what i enjoy about this game as you should all know i love a challenge just as much as the rest of you_

Yeah I agree, being pigeonholed (I like that term ) into playing in a certain way or playing certain characters is super lame. It sucks for Wario, he's pigeonholed into avoiding grabs against basically every character. Makes me want to quit him, among other reasons too.

AFAIK, (and I could be wrong, I generally don't look up how to do infinites) but all other infinite chain grabs all end at the edge of the stage, but the IC one doesn't require any forward movement to do (I think D3 might have a standing one on a couple maybe?)

If an infinite ends because of running out of room on the stage, imo that's fine, as it's not "Oh shi- there goes a stock" when grabbed once.

It's an infinite if it requires no movemnt otherwise it's just a CG, or in IC's case they can just turn around and not worry about room thus being an infinite. If one is illegal all should be, IC's do not deserve speial treatment "oh look at poor us it's all we have".

Jupz people are trying to improve, I know for a fact that alzi practices among others.

I read every post in this thread fully, sure it's harder to pull off but the fact remains it's an infinite just like DDD's and it should NOT be treated differently.

Heh i'm surprised we lured Lain over here with all this heated debate_

Well i think everybody has made their opinion heard and i am willing to leave it at a group decision (unless proven otherwise) as to what path we should take about IC infinite CG_ To re-confirm, this is the CG that requires no forward momentum in comparison to the standard CG which i don't think anybody has any issues with_

Jupz i think you are under the misconception that people in Perth are not wanting to take the scene seriously in terms of competitive play_ Although we do have fun and joke around, after speaking to many people in the scene i am well aware that people want to progress much further than they currently stand_ The issue some people have is a lack of human opponent to practice against, or lack of understanding in terms of character training_ People handle their brick walls differently but the general consensus is that everyone wants to progress_

I personally know that myself and Baconfingers practice regularly every thursday and have recently gotten Marteh involved because of his lack of human practice and his willingness to further his competitive game_ Everybody else has their set routines for practice and training and it has been showing_ Jupz and Alzi in particular have improved amazingly and i feel that the rest of the scene are getting to a level of equal skill to Sam_

It has taken longer than most states but you forget that for 6 months last year there were only 8 of us who were keeping the scene alive and this is what i attribute mostly to our lack of progression_ Now that the scene is picking up in size we have also seen an increase in growth and development_ You will still notice of the 8 people who held the scene together, at least 5 of us still remain in the top 8 respectively_

This is why i have been pushing for Smashfests in between regular tournaments to promote further growth and development to our scene_ Yes i do agree with you Jupz that we have the potential and need to push ourselves further and this will become more prevalent as our scene increases in size and tournament regularity_ Unfortunately we lack the numbers of the Eastern states in both size and available tournaments and i feel we do lack the variety of competition that we require_

Anyways sorry to babble off as i have a tendency to rant wildly_ Jupz i see your arguments and i value your discussion about this topic because these things need to be debated sometimes to make topics known, seen or heard_ Hopefully we can come to a community decision on the state of the IC infinite CG (not the standard CG) and leave this topic resolved until the need for further discussion_

Please anyone feel free to add their thoughts or input as well as suggestions on possible poll questions or community decisions to finalize this discussion_ My suggestions are simple questions in poll form such as;
"Do you feel that the IC infnite CG should be banned in the perth scene?"
"Do you feel that the IC infinite should be allowed in the perth scene?"
"Do you feel we should allow the IC infinite but regulate as to how often/ to what percentage it can be allowed?"
"Do you feel IC themselves should be banned in the perth scene?" (i lol'ed whilst writing)
"I like pie"

Answering with a quote.

Obviously banning the infinite which results in a 0-death kill is not banning the IC's and if that makes them low tier, BL THAR! You also say the only reason they pick up the IC's is because of the infinites. Is that not cheap and scrubbish-like? People will still use them because they have a good ground game and can still combo out of grabs.

EDIT: Alan u hardly play bowser or shiek. You play tl too fkin much imo

I'm sorry but in my opinion their say counts less than ours, this is our scene and we should be the ones deciding the future of it. Just because they are good players does not mean they are more important than us.

In what way has thier scene progressed past ours? "Theres a reason the best players opinions count more then others." This made me cringe, really mate we are not some sort of inferior beings with no knowledge because we don't place as well in large tournaments, and it was also undermining to all of us.

No, they hate the tactic that can't be stopped short of "don't get grabbed lolol"

And I can understand banning the technique if people aren't going to turn up at a tournament because of it. It's not something that skill can improve against. I could be combo-ing you, doing amazing mindagmes, get you to 120%, ready to kill, and then you grab me and all I have done was worthless. It's demoralizing.

It's got nothing to do with you or IC's in general, just that infinite.

I've yet to see a video of US players where I envy (sort of the right word?) their level of gameplay. Every video (as in 100% of the videos) I have seen I am able to point out many (by many I mean at least 1 every 10 seconds ) 'mistakes', 'poor judegment', 'bad timing' and just 'bad ideas'. The problem is that the perception of gameplay is based on the wrong thing. Its based on "how many tournaments have they had? How many entrants were there? How much research was done?". This is a flawed system of comparing metagames.

I could explain why 3+2 = 5 to a human in under a minute but it would take me infinite time to explain it to a cat. How do I compare the basic mathematical addition skill of the cat and the human? By how much time I spent teaching them or by how well they can add numbers? When comparing metagames, I dont care about tournament numbers, I dont care about post count. The only thing that actually matters is how well they play in a match and there is nothing I've seen from the US or anywhere else that makes them so high and mighty compared to anyone else I have fought against. A simple example is this Santi fellow (considered one of the top Toon Link players), ive seen videos of him in tournaments and friendlies and some of the stuff he does is just noobish yet he is still one of 'the best'...for some reason.

When it comes to the Ice Climber discussion, I think the main issue is that theres 2 options and neither of them are good.

1. Ban IC Chain Grab.
2. Dont Ban it.

The problem is that without their chain grab, they are pretty bad and would go down quite a bit in the tier list I think but then on the other end, with a perfected IC player, 1 grab = 1 stock. Now people say "dont get grabbed" as a counter to their chain grab but please, if your not a character that can outcamp IC and are forced to approach them then you will get grabbed (assuming the IC player knows how to play the game).

NOTE: Only got the final optional insane hard boss in Star Ocean 4 to go

pro-ban side arguments for vlade to read :D

btw welcome back vlade!!! :D

oh and i just got back from the UWA open day it was pretty fun :D

 

[Alzi]

This has turned into the ice climbers character thread lol.

Anyway welcome back Vlade now you need to post your whole trip story on here for all of us to see how it went.

 

[Muzga]

Im playing a gig tonight at the moon cafe in northbridge if anyone is interested in coming.
You dont need ID, its a public venue. its like a really artsy type restaurant, you can get some crazy food there.
chocolate pizzas ftw
but yeah, anyone who may be interested in checking it out is welcome to it

 

[Jupz]

Good luck muzga! :D

Also yeah can't wait until Vlade tells his trip story

 

[I LAG]

omg wtf jupz i'm not going to even read that, i'm just going to agree with you

 

[swordsaint]

the proof we've seen is many of our top eastern side players have been destroyed by americans at genesis

shaya, arguably the best player in australia at the current time got 65th, people like m2k 3 stocked him
other people like tedeth/luke, ranked in the 200 area in a competition with over 300 entrants

corpse, stop speaking like you're a know-it-all

 

[Jupz]

omg wtf jupz i'm not going to even read that, i'm just going to agree with you

lol <3 I LAG

 

[Jono!]

Hmm. This is my take on the IC's infinites: Although they are an infinite they are not a guaranteed infinite (neither is DDD's because u can simply miss the grab button) and while there is a margin for error it can still result in a 0-death combo, which in my books is broken. Whilst some say l2space & if u get grabbed ur *** is gona have a huge hole this is the same as DDD's infinite. If its the same why is only DDD's banned? CG is all IC's have and while some may argue its all we have to win at high level of play then obviously dont play him at high levels, as you dont see m2k or lain for any fact playing captain falcon or any other lower tier character.

ON ANOTHER NOTE MY TENNIS TEAM WON GRAND FINALS FOR THE FIRST TIME! **** YEAH CLUB MEET AT DARKLIGHT AT 5

 

[Jupz]

Lolwut that makes no sense at all Jono. Dedede's is easy to use and far easier to achieve a grab. Hell, you don't even have to space attacks that well against IC's because both of them slide backwards after you hit their shield :| Read vlades post, its easy to distinguish the IC's and DDD's infinites.

Congrats on winning tennis

 

[swordsaint]

or you can learn to mash, mashing really gays over icies infinites.

 

[Jupz]

yeah especially at low percents its very hard

 

[Hobobloke]

There is no point in continuing to debate as bith sides have mde it quite clear they aren't going to budge. As i've said I'm fine to keep it unbanned now but if it becomes a problem (I have the understanding that 3 people can now infnite) in future tournaments I will call for a ban.

 

[lain]

I have no idea what you just said Jono.

 

[Jupz]

thanks for giving it some time trav, people will figure out how to get past it and it won't become an issue, this has been proven by the american metagame

 

[Vlade]

In progress of writing my huge recount of my camp.

Expect it perhaps sometime this week, although I bet I've got a tonne of work to catch up on

 

[Jupz]

ok vlade :D

did you read the debate? lolz

 

[Muzga]

Good luck muzga! :D

Also yeah can't wait until Vlade tells his trip story

Thanks

Yeah these gigs are usually lots of fun:D
Im gonna keep advertising till one of you guys comes to one of these

 

[Vlade]

Hehe I did, I always make sure I'm up to date with this thread

Official tournament post coming soon

 

[Jupz]

I can't tonight, got school tomorrow. I'll try my best to make it someday

 

[Alzi]

Jono speaks wise words.

Goodluck at the thing tonight Muzga do you play the piano? Since i've recently been looking at some piano vids playing zelda music and it's hell epic.

Also is Shaya really Australia's best player? Also who is the second best toon link in Australia? :D

lain you should post here more often and bring some others so this thread can become the best thread on smashboards.

As for Ice climbers i don't mind them but if i get beaten by them in one match next match i am going to excuse my language but i will litrially **** nana up the *** or popo which ever one you are using as a tool.

As for subjects i'm really not that smart and english isn't my first language but i'll ask my teachers and see what they think if i should move up one or not. As for now i am just drinking alot of water since i got the flu a bit hope it's not swinub flu from muzga though.

Also thanks Vlade for doing these tournaments if you never did these then there would be a high chance i could never make it to Bob's one.

 

[Muzga]

Yeah. i was studying classical music since i turned 4. I stopped my classical lessons a few years ago and completed a cert IV in jazz music, a completely useless qualification but i learnt a lot.
At the moment im applying aspects of both and playing with a hip hop group which is a lot of fun. I dont get paid to do it, i just love doing it.

Edit: Ive been known to dabble in a bit of VGM,
I dont consider video game music its own genre of music,
There is nothing seperating the music in video games with the music outside of them aside from the fact that the music was used in or made for a videogame. As far as im concerned playing music from zelda or mario is just the same as learning a mozart prelude. I take playing video game music seriously and dont just treat it as some novelty because the truth is that its all just music

Discuss

 

[Hobobloke]

It's great that your doing what you love. Can't make it tonight but good luck.

 

[Alzi]

IMO doing somthing free like that muzga and not worrying so much about money is what the world should be like. Infact who ever came with the idea of using notes as money to buy things is a total idiot.