Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[TheReflexWonder]

It's just the same result; you die. In the end, what matters is if it takes the stock or not. Early KOs happen all the time.

I'm not sure that it is. A relatively simple hit confirm while your stock is at no real risk compared to usually landing it by itself in a position where a clean hit means you die is not the same thing in terms of commitment and effectiveness.

 

[Gunla]

I'm not sure that it is. A relatively simple hit confirm while your stock is at no real risk compared to usually landing it by itself in a position where a clean hit means you die is not the same thing in terms of commitment and effectiveness.

Perhaps I was being a bit too general there, apologies. I was specifically referring to the application of it to getting the early KO, but in the context of effective hits and committing to it, you are correct.

 

[PK Gaming]

So Reflex's set with Ryo and vague experimentation with the character has me wondering, how does Wario fare with swordfighters? He seems to be the kind of character that either wants to keep you out or ensure you can't keep him out. I imagine disjoints give him a hard time, but that's just theory.

Not that swordfighters necessarily make up a good portion of relevant characters (the only ones that come to mind are Ike, maybe the Pits and MK if you count him), but it was an interesting set and I can't help but notice how much Reflex needed to spot an opening in Ryo's wall of disjoints before he got to do things.

A lot better than most would assume. He beats every sword user in the game barring Pit, Metaknight and Ike.

 

[Wintropy]

Interesting to me that there's a very different response to KO Punch than there is to Waft. Is it because KO Punch is most effective on the ground (which, to be fair, is the bones of Mac's entire gameplan) and can't be stored in the same way that Waft can (since knocking Mac into tumble or KOing him negates it)?

I don't think it's the same thing or nearly as considerable as the Waft, but I wonder if that's because the move itself isn't very good or because Mac, in a competitive context, isn't very good.

EDIT: Probably helps that KO Punch doesn't have the same kind of hangtime that Waft does; you've got a very small window of opportunity to connect, whereas Waft can be held indefinitely. I do think Waft is the infinitely superior secret weapon, but I wonder why people don't consider KO Punch in the same category of potential threat.

 

[L9999]

I'm not sure that it is. A relatively simple hit confirm while your stock is at no real risk compared to usually landing it by itself in a position where a clean hit means you die is not the same thing in terms of commitment and effectiveness.

So what do you think regarding Gravitational Gimp?

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Frame data is important. Dedede isn't gonna hit Wario. That MU is solidly in his favor.

That's a bad excuse. Not just for Wario, but for many of Dedede's matchups in his favor. Jab, forward tilt, up tilt, down tilt, down smash, neutral aerial, and up aerial all come out at (close to) average speeds, and sometimes combo into the attacks that don't. Plus, Dedede is one of the best at covering landings, which he can do using up smash, dash attack, forward smash, Jet Hammer, and Gordo Throw.

 

[NairWizard]

It's like getting HP gimped your second stock, or getting caped, or getting Kirbycided. You die at an early percent and the person who made the read did a good job getting it. And if you let yourself get killed by it, it's really your fault for letting it do so.

The reason early KOs aren't fun is because fighting games are all about repeated interactions in neutral and outplaying your opponent across multiple instances of neutral. This leads to adaptation, the development of counterplay, and baiting and reading based on patterns seen.

Killing at 40 cuts down the amount of neutral interactions you can have in a given match, and thus reduces room for adaptation, counterplay, baiting, and reading.

It's not a big deal if everyone kills at 40, though; you can just increase the number of neutral interactions by arbitrarily adjusting the stock count (or the match count, playing best of 5s instead of best of 3s). Melee does this because everyone's reward is so high in that game that a single hit or two usually converts into a kill, so 4 stocks ups the number of neutral interactions that you can have in a single match.

But when you are killing at 120 and your opponent is killing at 40, neutral becomes very difficult to play properly; you only get a few shots at it, so you don't have a lot of chances to read or adapt to your opponent, and your opponent doesn't need to read or adapt to you because the risk:reward ratio is so far in his favor. He can even guess because he only needs to be right 1/3 of the time (assuming damage/percent-wracking is the same for both characters).

The best example of this is Ice Climbers in Brawl vs. characters who couldn't instantly gimp Nana on a successful read, or any character against whom Brawl Dedede had a chain infinite vs. D3.

 

[Mr. Johan]

KO Punch is not as damning because it's balanced by Little Mac effectively having his own "I lose" condition whenever he's knocked offstage in a horizontal trajectory.

Wario still functions as a solid character with his movement, good specials, and good recovery, but then he gets the Waft on top of it.

 

[PK Gaming]

That's a bad excuse. Not just for Wario, but for many of Dedede's matchups in his favor. Jab, forward tilt, up tilt, down tilt, down smash, neutral aerial, and up aerial all come out at (close to) average speeds, and sometimes combo into the attacks that don't. Plus, Dedede is one of the best at covering landings, which he can do using up smash, dash attack, forward smash, Jet Hammer, and Gordo Throw.

Triple D literally cannot KO a Wario who doesn't want to be hit. He has no kill set ups and slow KO options. Who cares if he outranges Wario? A Wario who's committed to playing the camp game will beat DDD every time.

 

[Spinosaurus]

That's a bad excuse. Not just for Wario, but for many of Dedede's matchups in his favor. Jab, forward tilt, up tilt, down tilt, down smash, neutral aerial, and up aerial all come out at (close to) average speeds, and sometimes combo into the attacks that don't. Plus, Dedede is one of the best at covering landings, which he can do using up smash, dash attack, forward smash, Jet Hammer, and Gordo Throw.

I'm looking at his frame data and all the moves you mentioned are hardly what I'd call average.

His jab is frame 10.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Arghhh! I can't stand reddit. Literally everyone there is blaming Marth rather than Sheik's stupid Fair.

It has way more to do with their neutral stances then anything else. But **** i.

Pointless comparing the Queen to a character that has no effect on the meta.

That's something people do in this thread quite often for the sake of making their char seem relevant and I'm not about to continue the trend.

 

[LancerStaff]

KO Punch is not as damning because it's balanced by Little Mac effectively having his own "I lose" condition whenever he's knocked offstage in a horizontal trajectory.

Wario still functions as a solid character with his movement, good specials, and good recovery, but then he gets the Waft on top of it.

I'm thinking it's more that it's designed to fail. It's set up so that Mac will be near death or dead by the time he gets it, and it can be relatively easily defused. The tension is almost entirely on Mac, because almost any mistake will cost him the move. But then with Wario, only he can get rid of the move. Almost no reason to risk a hard read with it because it'll be there until the match is over, so it's on Wario's opponent to not screw up. Even if the KO Punch were on Mario and was tuned to how much later he dies it'd still be fairly useless. (Well, Mario could probably combo into it much more effectively but you get my point.)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

A lot better than most would assume. He beats every sword user in the game barring Pit, Metaknight and Ike.

Wario doesn't beat any sword user except maybe Roy.

I'm looking at his frame data and all the moves you mentioned are hardly what I'd call average.

His jab is frame 10.

Real talk though, DDDs jab is a ****ing pain for Wario to deal with. The matchup vs DDD is generally not an easy one for Wario.

 

[Trifroze]

What's the general consensus on Charizard after the fixes to his jab, up throw becoming a kill throw and down throw becoming a combo throw? He has probably the best OoS options in the game and a decent recovery. Alright tools for breaking out of combos, getting off the ledge and landing as well for a superheavy. What does he struggle with the most, and is he still considered one of the worst in the game? Haven't heard much talk of him.

 

[PK Gaming]

Wario doesn't beat any sword user except maybe Roy.

I disagree. I think he more or less beats Marcina, Robin, Roy, Link/TL, Swordfighter and Shulk with varying degrees of difficulty.

 

[wedl!!]

I mean if we're posting MU charts I'll join in with my awful one
-2:
-1:
0:
+1: /
+2:

protip for peach mains: secondary rosa pls

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I disagree. I think he more or less beats Marcina, Robin, Roy, Link/TL, Swordfighter and Shulk with varying degrees of difficulty.

Wario beats none of these characters except Robin whom I don't consider a Swordsman anyway.

 

[XcerosZeku]

I think Roy and Marthcina and Shulk are mostly even with Wario due to the spacing and boxing him out.

 

[Nu~]

I mean if we're posting MU charts I'll join in with my awful one
-2:
-1:
0:
+1: /
+2:

protip for peach mains: secondary rosa pls

Why is she considered a "definite high tier" if her matchups are this bad?

 

[PK Gaming]

Wario beats none of these characters except Robin whom I don't consider a Swordsman anyway.

You don't really have any arguments to back that claim up, do you. Would it kill you to make a post that isn't a declarative statement?

In any case, i'm going to challenge your assertion with footage.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Triple D literally cannot KO a Wario who doesn't want to be hit. He has no kill set ups and slow KO options. Who cares if he outranges Wario? A Wario who's committed to playing the camp game will beat DDD every time.

If you're referring to air camping, it won't work very well, as Dedede is able to land a slow but strong hit immediately as he lands. Or if he's ground camping, Super Dedede Jump will let Dedede approach near unpunishably. Saying he doesn't have kill setups isn't true either, Dedede has down throw combos. He just needs to bait out air dodges, then he can land a jump into forward aerial, or double jump to up aerial at higher percents. Really, Dedede can KO his opponent at any high percent granted he can get them in the air. IMO, this matchup is 50:50.

One thing that can sculpt Wario's matchups, but yet remains undiscussed, is the Wario Bike. If you begin to approach, and jump off at a good time, you briefly gain control of the ground and the air, making damage almost guaranteed.

 

[bc1910]

I think Zard's just eh. A fairly typical heavy, but he's not bad, heavies aren't auto-bad in this game. He's kinda jab and grab - the character.

I don't think he's one of the worst in the game, probably not even close, but not much better than low or low mid.

 

[wedl!!]

Like half of those -1 MU's are pretty doable and I was contemplating them being close to even.

I'm probably wrong on most of these but w/e.

The only characters she actually has legitimately bad MUs are Diddy and MM and PROBABLY Villager.

 

[Antonykun]

I mean if we're posting MU charts I'll join in with my awful one
-2:
-1:
0:
+1: /
+2:

protip for peach mains: secondary rosa pls

wow Villager's Mu with Petch is so profound its off that list

though i already know your thoughts on the MU

 

[DanGR]

I was under the impression that being able to float over MK's primarily ground-based neutral was a big pro for peach- enough to put it in her favor. Is that not the case?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

One thing that can sculpt Wario's matchups, but yet remains undiscussed, is the Wario Bike. If you begin to approach, and jump off at a good time, you briefly gain control of the ground and the air, making damage almost guaranteed.

That's not really true. If Wario jumps off the (non-custom Burying) Bike before approaching the opponent, it's a high jump, and the Bike itself deals 3% after Wario jumps off, so it's trivial for the opponent powershield or airdodge through. It's good for stalling for a couple seconds (and tapping Luma), but not really good for approaching in the way you describe it.

So what do you think regarding Gravitational Gimp?

I don't know what that is. Are you referring to eating PK Thunder with Rosalina Down-B? While it's at no risk to her, it takes significantly more work to get Ness offstage in a way where he needs PKT2 to recover than to get a grab with ZSS or to land Waft with Wario, I think.

 

[wedl!!]

The main problem is that if she gets hit once she's dead. According to somethings I've heard on the grapevine, she can die to Uair chains starting at like 0% or something, lol.

I don't know this MU well enough to really say, it's either even or -1. Neutral is probably in her favor, however.

 

[Loota]

Here's the thing about Wario's MUs - no one is gonna agree on them. The Wario MU thread and Skype group are all over the place with this. There's no general consensus on this character's MUs.

And it's all because waft is dumb.

Sounds way too familiar. It's the very same with Lucario as the effect of aura is incredibly hard to evaluate to the point I don't really care about numbers anymore. I'd be happy with just listing MU's as either advantageous, neutral or disadvantageous but even that can prove difficult sometimes.

The average discussions I've seen usually boil down to how well character X can kill and that's almost directly translated into a number, which isn't entirely without foundation but is stupid nonetheless. This isn't to say I'd be able to judge those MU's any better personally but I'm just completely tired of seeing that same old dance repeated from time to time (almost as much as regarding Lucario's neutral as poor and him not being able to kill until high aura). Hell, I'd be all for attaching a random number generator to all his MU numbers if that means an end to the aforementioned arguments, it'd probably turn out more accurate too.

 

[Zannabluke]

unrelated but mlg vods are finally being uploaded to their channel (MLGSmash), including this notorious set

 

[Wintropy]

The only relevant matchups that I think Pit really struggles with are ZSS and Pikachu. Even then, I don't think it's anything more than +2 at the absolute maximum for either of them. Pikachu is probably +1, I'm just paranoid about the yellow devil.

He gets beaten by Sheik (obvs), but I don't think it's a big disadvantage, definitely not one of his most difficult matchups.

He may get beaten by Fox, Luigi, Ness, Sonic and Rosalina, but none of them are anything beyond +1.

On the flip side, he doesn't beat anybody more than +1 or +2. I don't know what his best matchup is. Knowing Pit, it's probably himself or Dark Pit.

Mario, Greninja, R.O.B., Peach, Yoshi and Captain Falcon are probably matchups with a very slight advantage / disadvantage for Pit, 0.5 or something trivial either way. It's closer to even with these.

I don't know where Diddy, Wario, Ike, Ryu, Meta Knight, Villager and the other relevant characters go.

This is just my opinion. Pit's matchup spread isn't really relevant, even we the Pits don't know what goes where, but this is what I think it is.

EDIT: Forgot Mario and Sonic~

EDIT2: Full spread. Please critique at your discretion.

Spoiler

-2



-1



0



+1



+2

...?

EDIT3: Updated~

Decided to redraft my matchup spread now that I have time to sit down and think about it.

This is by no means a definitive representation of my opinions, since I don't have good experience with every character; in the case where I don't know the matchup, I will defer either to generally agreed upon theory, results or the opinions of other players.

Mii placement presumes Miis can change their specials and size.

Pit and Dark Pit will be interchangeable for the purpose of this spread.

This is going by the definition of -1 to mean "disadvantage, but not major" and +1 to mean "advantage, but not major". I don't think Pit has any matchups that go beyond either extreme.

-1



0



+1

​

Spoiler: Placements

I maintain Pit is disadvantaged in the Dedede matchup. Pit has better frame data and mobility, but Dedede's disjoints outrange Pit's and Pit can't reliably reflect Gordo with n-air or f-air, meaning he must be wary of going into the air to approach Dedede. Dedede's weight means he will live longer than Pit, exacerbating his difficulty killing, and Dedede's recovery potential and relatively fast airs make him difficult to gimp. It isn't one of Pit's most difficult matchups, but I think it's significant enough to comment on it.

Still not convinced Pikachu is even, but I accept it isn't that bad either. I am wary of Pika's speed, spacing (Thunder Jolt) and difficulty edgeguarding (Quick Attack), I reckon it's a small but significant disadvantage.

ZSS, MK and Brawler I think are even-ish in theory, but their advantage does it for me. It's doable, but Pit needs to be very safe not to fall into their traps and get put into severe disadvantage. In essence, he can beat them in footsies, but a good read can be fatal for Pit. The difference between these characters and certain others (i.e. the super-heavies) is that these characters have the mobility and frame data to threaten Pit, even considering spacing.

I think Luigi is easier for Pit since the nerf to his grab game, which in my opinion is the big thing that made it disadvantaged for Pit, but I still think it's a bit of a tricky fight. Pit still has to respect his fireball zoning, safe airs and good punish options, but a good projectile of his own and the ability to play footsies against Luigi's weak mobility means he can hold his own if he plays it safe.

Ryu is even instead of advantage because I think Pit has an easier time spacing him than ZSS and MK due to Pit's disjoints and Ryu's weaker mobility (than ZSS and MK).

It's going to come up, so I'm just going to say, I think Pit goes even with Ike. Ike has raw power and speed, Pit has comparable range and better mobility. Footsies is very important here, neither character outright wins neutral. Sniping is good for pestering Ike off-stage, but it doesn't make much of a difference either way.

Captain Falcon and Ness are volatile: it really depends on who wins advantage and gets momentum going. It can be strongly in favour of either character depending on how the neutral goes, but because it can tip back and forth in either characters' favour, it's fundamentally even.

Dark Pit has a distinct advantage over Pit in the Rosalina matchup thanks to Electroshock, but even so, I don't think it's that difficult for either Pit. Since I'm basing this on both Pits, I'm deeming it an even matchup.

I'm not entirely sure about Yoshi, but then I don't think the Yoshis are either. I'm putting it as even because, in my experience, both characters have good strengths and can exploit the others' weaknesses; I've never noticed anything that tips it either way, it evens out in my opinion.

I've never had difficulty with Diddy since the Hoo-Hah was ditched. Disjoints trade favourably with Diddy's options, Pit can snipe both of his recoveries (especially up-b) and challenge side-b. Diddy doesn't have good options to threaten Pit off-stage. Diddy's great mobility and 'nana setups keep it even, since Pit has to respect Diddy when he has the 'nana and he has to play it safe if Diddy wins neutral.

Don't know enough about Swordfighter or Gunner to make an informed opinion, but based on experience, I think their options and Pit's trade well, but not to any extreme. Swordie and Gunner can space and zone Pit well, but if Pit beats them in neutral, he can pressure them well and keep it even.

Mac is pretty interesting, in that he can dominate in neutral in he gets in and Pit has to play very safe to keep him out, but he's very susceptible to disjoint shenanigans (disjoints really factor into Pit's matchup spread) and dies earlier than pretty much any other character in the roster. Pit's superior edgeguarding abilities (sniping is often sufficient to gimp Mac) means he doesn't have much to worry about if he keeps on top of Mac and plays good footsies.

The super-heavies (Bowser, Ganondorf and DK) don't really threaten Pit if he can space them - which he can, thanks to tasty disjoints and better mobility! They're pretty easy to egdeguard with sniping and disjoints, nothing that Pit really has to be concerned with. Same caveat applies here as every matchup with these characters: a single mistake can be fatal, but a good Pit won't let the opponent get into that position, and he has no reason to if he plays it safe and easy.

Charizard is similar to the above, just replace insta-kill punishes with better recovery potential. Still doesn't concern Pit if he's careful and spaces Charizard well.

Mario is about even, Pit needs to respect his close-range options and combo potential, but Doc is easier to keep out and mitigates Mario's mobility, which is the biggest threat in the matchup. He has an easier time killing Pit, but the fact that it's more difficult for him to get into that position and he's distinctly easier to edgeguard sets him apart from vanilla Mario.

Pit beats Duck Hunt in pretty much everything except zoning potential, which can be a real pain and force Pit to play very safe and careful. If he can get past the projectile wall (Orbies help in a pinch), he doesn't have much to worry about, since his disjoints are faster and beat Duck Hunt's. Duck Hunt's difficulty killing is a decisive factor in the matchup, since Pit can stay alive until he gets an opening to get the stock. Duck Hunt's predictable recovery and relatively weak airs make them easy to edgeguard.

I think Pit beats Jigglypuff pretty well. Disjoints keep her out on the ground and in the air. On the ground, OOS options can cover Pit's space. Side-d can kill Jiggly very early. Edgeguarding is tricky, but again, disjoints work well.

 

[Y2Kay]

What's the general consensus on Charizard after the fixes to his jab, up throw becoming a kill throw and down throw becoming a combo throw? He has probably the best OoS options in the game and a decent recovery. Alright tools for breaking out of combos, getting off the ledge and landing as well for a superheavy. What does he struggle with the most, and is he still considered one of the worst in the game? Haven't heard much talk of him.

I've been playing a lot of Zard recently, and I must say he's really good. What really sets him apart from the other heavies is his great ground speed and flamethrower. He moves the fastest of the heavy weights, behind sheik of all people! And flamethrower helps charizard fight against some projectiles and players that recklessly rush in (C Falcons especially). Rock smash is also good for interrupting strings and combos, and covers his landings. He's recovery is pretty good and it's risky for opponents to gimp, unless you got fludd. Of course, he's great at killing, and lives pretty long. He still has a rough time with combos. Unfortunately, his bad MUs are used a ton. ZSS, Rosaluma, and Sheik are pretty common and are tough to beat. To a slightly lesser extent, Fox, Mario, pikachu, and now luigi are bad MUs. IMO opinion he's mid tier at worst and the best heavyweight. I found him a lot more balanced than DK. Or maybe it's just cuz I hate him.

I'll add more when I get home.

 

[FullMoon]

Pit losing to Ness? Really? It really doesn't sound like he would lose to him.

 

[⑨ball]

LancerStaff Afaik KO punch functions similar to super meter in the Street Fighter series. He gains meter both for getting hit and landing hits so he never HAS to be near death.

Wintropy KO punch likely isn't listed in the "big scary early KO options" because of Mac's relevance to the meta on top of counterbalances to it's power and a lack of consistent setups which often moves it from an advantage state tool to a neutral tool.

TheReflexWonder Rose Waft in tourney when? (':

NairWizard I actually think early KOs are fantastic when the risk v reward is proportional.

I was actually expecting a lot more discussion on Gheb's thoughts on the Yoshi v Fox MU. I've heard before that Yoshi destroys Fox, but -5 honestly seems like something that would invalidate a character. Can Fox really be considered for Top 5-10 with a relevant character like that in the meta? If so isn't likely that Yoshi needs to drop due to theory not holding up against results?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I've been playing a lot of Zard recently, and I must say he's really good. What really sets him apart from the other heavies is his great ground speed and flamethrower. He moves the fastest of the heavy weights, behind sheik of all people! And flamethrower helps charizard fight against some projectiles and players that recklessly rush in (C Falcons especially). Rock smash is also good for interrupting strings and combos, and covers his landings. He's recovery is pretty good and it's risky for opponents to gimp, unless you got fludd. Of course, he's great at killing, and lives pretty long. He still has a rough time with combos. Unfortunately, his bad MUs are used a ton. ZSS, Rosaluma, and Sheik are pretty common and are tough to beat. To a slightly lesser extent, Fox, Mario, pikachu, and now luigi are bad MUs. IMO opinion he's mid tier at worst and the best heavyweight. I found him a lot more balanced than DK. Or maybe it's just cuz I hate him.

I'll add more when I get home.

DK? Unbalanced?
Since when has a dying to a grab combo ever been a problem for anyone?
...
oh wait

 

[Nobie]

When I said that I think Dedede can go toe-to-toe with Wario and mentioned range and power, I wasn't quite being accurate.

What I meant was range + power + the meatiest hitboxes in Smash 4.

Wario has the mobility advantage, of course. He has some of the best air movement in the game, and Dedede's attacks are slow to come out, and in some cases slow to recover. However, at the end of the day Wario's greatest weakness is his lack of range, and in some cases no amount of weaving is going to save you from the fact that your attempt to approach got straight up beaten out by a very lenient pivot f-tilt.

Like, Marth and other swordsmen might have the range and the foot movement to keep Wario out, but they often have attacks that are active for short moments, like most characters.

Dedede on the other hand:
F-tilt: 12 active frames
U-tilt: 7 active frames
D-tilt: 8 active frames
F-smash: 8 active frames
U-smash: 8 active frames
D-smash: 9 active frames

In the end, Wario has the Waft, and can camp Dedede out to charge it, but Dedede's design seems to not be fun times for a character that relies so heavily on movement to compensate for a lack of range.

 

[Megamang]

Why is peach high tier with losing MUs like that? Because that MU chart isnt delusional like half of the character boards....

 

[Mario766]

Are we doing MU charts? I've been meaning to make one but a lot of MUs for Ike are ambigious.

Guess I'll make one. IMO and everything, Ike's MUs change based on MU EXP and the skill of the Ike player heavily.

Spoiler

-1

-.5

+0

+1

Spoiler

Let me talk about a few now

Ike's worst MU is Sheik. Diddy/Fox are -.5 because the MUs aren't quite -1 or as bad as Sheik/ZSS, but they aren't like an even MU.

Mario/Luigi were in -1 until the recent buffs giving Ike a better zoning game, and Luigi nerfs.

We beat bascially every heavy that isn't Rob/Ryu. Bowser Jr might be even or we might win. Who knows. Top level Ikes have a lot of Rosalina/Sonic MU so they win a lot of those sets.

Greninja could be a -.5, but the changes make Ike work. It isn't anything like release. *shudder*

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'd say we flat out win the Sonic MU. A top level Sonic has beaten a top level Ike... once? When it was the Ike with the least amount of Sonic experience. And picked the wrooooong CP stage game 3.

Maybe like, move him, Rosalina and a few others into a +.5 category? Some others in there I could see moving into that range like Yoshi, maaaaybe Ryu? Could argue about ROB, Ness, Lucario and bumping Falcon down to that range. Seems strange to have a -.5 but not a +.5.

 

[bc1910]

Lol, release Greninja vs release Ike... I think that was one of the worst MUs in this game's history. I don't see how Ike was meant to win, short of disabling Greninja's B button.

Wintropy There really aren't many +1s there. I know Pit is very balanced but his range and raw frame data should allow him to beat more characters than that, surely?

And yeah, Peach's MUs are probably better than that. I can only see her losing to characters who can reliably keep her out AND don't get bodied up close, i.e. mobile all-rounders with projectiles, such as Sheik, Pikachu and Greninja. I can also see the Ryu loss because he competes up close and just ends her at like, what, 60? She should be able to tear some of the zoners like Link, Olimar and Pac-Man apart once she gets in.

wedl!! I really like that you've made some bold claims though, whether they're in Peach's favour or not. So sick of reading "even" for every MU. I think it's fine to be assertive in personal MU charts, they are personal after all.

 

[Mario766]

I was being very cautious to throw a ton of people into a winning category. I don't have a ton of MU EXP that is relevant in a lot of those MUs so I can't give an accurate placing for it.

All I know is we don't lose those MUs.