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In terms of just hit frames, Mewtwo's frame data is not bad; it's average at worse. Bad would be Shulk, Greninja, and I'm pretty sure Triple D, Bowser, and Ganondorf - thank his Utilt for destroying his average hit frames - are among the worst. In terms of damage output, it's Sheik, in terms of range, it's someone like Meta Knight despite him having a disjoint - not really sure about this one and Wii Fit Trainer being tall helps with this, in terms of knockback, it's probably Sheik, and in terms of mobility, well, Sonic wins in ground speed, Yoshi wins in air speed, and Greninja or ZSS wins overall. Collectively, bad is something like er... Triple D's? Sure, he's got range, but he hits really slow, moves really slow, and sometimes, he doesn't even feel as strong as Ganondorf or Ike. Collectively, Mewtwo's frame data isn't bad when you factor everything in.
Note: Falco's going to be the dummy for all of these comparisons since he's a fast hitter. Mewtwo's frame data isn't that bad. His moves are average in speed. When I put hit frames for the Falco MU discussions, they're there to stop things like, "Rosalina hits faster than Zelda", but does that really matter? In some ways, yes. At close range, Falco will have an upper hand on Mewtwo, but Mewtwo will slap Falco out when Falco is outrange which is... pretty much the entire time as Falco has no moves other than his Specials that compete with or outrange Mewtwo except against Mewtwo's Nair and perhaps jab. Falco's frame 2 jab isn't going to do jack when Mewtwo sweeps his tail with Dtilt. Nair does nothing when Mewtwo can swipe and kill with Fair. The shortest range Mewtwo has are Down Smash, Nair, grabs, Confusion, and Disable. Everything else is pretty decent or long.
Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|6-6, (infinite), (finisher)
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|10-11 or 12-20
Ftilt|6-8|10-12 or 10-11 (angled)
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|8-8 or 9-13
Dtilt|7-9|6-7
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|19-21
Up Smash|8-12, 12-21|9-9, 14-15, 18-19, 22-23, 26-27, 30-31, 34-35
Down Smash|7-9|21-22
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|7-8, 11-12, 15-16, 19-20, 23-24, 27-28, 31-32, 35-36, 39-40
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|7-8
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|13-17
Uair|7-11|10-14
Dair|16-19 or 20-30|15-16
Grab|8-9|7-8
Dash Grab|10-11|9-10
Pivot Grab|11-12|10-11
Captain Falcon is actually below average in hit speed since other than jab, he hits at average or pretty below average-speed with slow Smashes for a melee-range fighter and average speed aerials. Does not matter much when his jab is ridiculous, he hits hard, and he has random disjoints on rapid jab finisher, dash attack, and Side Smash. Captain Falcon also being fast in the air and ground also helps since his dash grab is just wacky. The Capt. having average hit speed helps since it he was as fast as Fox, Mario, or Sheik, he'd be a monster with that kind of mobility, strength, and hit speed.
Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|3-5, 12-14, 22-23 (Gentleman)
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|7-9 or 10-16
Ftilt|6-8|9-11
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|17-20
Dtilt|7-9|11-12
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|19-22
Up Smash|8-12, 12-21|22-22, 28-28
Down Smash|7-9|19-20, 29-30
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|7-8, 20-21
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|14-14 or 15-30
Bair|4-5 or 6-11|10-11 or 12-15
Uair|7-11|6-10 or 11-12
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|16-18
Grab|8-9|7-8
Dash Grab|10-11|9-10
Pivot Grab|11-12|12-13
Falco gets **** on by Shulk because Shulk outranges Falco horribly. Shulk being faster even without his Monado Arts makes it even worse. Monado Arts just makes Falco look bad when he loses his title of highest jump, he loses his title of being a hard hitter since Shield negates that while Smash and Buster makes Falco look weak, and Speed just makes it even worse for Falco since he's already slower than Shulk without Monado Arts. Fast hits don't mean anything when you can't even hit your target. How does Falco get in? Blaster's useless when Shulk can use Speed or Jump and soar over while putting out a lingering hitbox and start comboing him. Reflector getting baited out is just hilarious when Shulk can run in and run out then hit him at range.
Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|5-6, 15-17, 33-32 or 34-34
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|15-16
Ftilt|6-8|12-13
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|11-23 or 13-23
Dtilt|7-9|10-11
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|14-15 (normal) or 14-16 (angled) , 23-24
Up Smash|8-12, 12-21|18-33 (Monado Slam and Beam) or 18-21 (Monado Beam-only)
Down Smash|7-9|18-19, 23-24, 28-29, 35-36, 41-42
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|13-30
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|14-18
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|18-22 or 21-22
Uair|7-11|14-15, 24-25
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|14-15 or 23-24
Grab|8-9|7-8
Dash Grab|10-11|9-10
Pivot Grab|11-12|10-11
Or how about this close frame data? Bear in mind that because of the patch, Falco actually has about 2? frames less landing lag than Fox and his aerial hit frames are now about 1-2 frame on average slower than Fox's. Well, why is Falco just worse than Fox in terms of MU despite being stronger than Fox, hitting about the same speed than Fox, having a better edgeguard game, and having a better throw game? Fox is much, much faster on the ground, slightly faster in the air, Fox's grab game is better which allows him to use throws for positioning better, and Fox has lots of kill confirms which Falco lacks. Oh, and Fox's Blaster is usable unlike Falco's which is "functioning". Should I mention how Fox's recovery actually works or that their recoveries launch at similar frames, but Falco's not only travels less, but has shoddy hitboxes? Or the fact that Fox's fall speed lets him survive just mere digits away from Falco despite Falco weighing 3 units more? Oh wait, that's right, Fox falls 0.25 units faster than Falco which more or less makes Fox and Falco's weight differences negligible.
Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|2, 7-8, ?, (infinite), ?
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|4-7 or 8-15
Ftilt|6-8|6-8
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|3-5 or 6-7
Dtilt|7-9|7-9
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|13-15 or 16-18
Up Smash|8-12, 12-21|8-9 or 10-11
Down Smash|7-9|6-7
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|4-6 or 7-25
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|7-8, 13-14, 19-20, 26-27, 32-33
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|9-11
Uair|7-11|9-10, 12-13
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|5-6, 8-9, 11-12, 14-15, 17-18, 20-21, 23-23
Grab|8-9|6-7
Dash Grab|10-11|10-11
Pivot Grab|11-12|11-12
Being a lightweight with poor aerial range, horrible horizontal mobility, and being a fairly good hurtbox makes Falco's life that much more difficult than Kirby and Mr. Game & Watch who are both short with Mr. G&W having disjoints for his entire moveset, Luigi who has a useful projectile to help his slow movement, Robin who has strong disjoints, usable projectiles, and weighs decently, or Ganondorf who just tanks hits while having good range thanks to his height. Mewtwo moves quicker than Falco, jumps fairly high, outranges Falco, has a good and useful projectile - the reward Falco gets from using Blaster are 3%, hitstun while dealing with heavy end lag, and a chance to gimp while Mewtwo can wreck shields, kill, and recover with Shadow Ball -, and has a reliable kill throw unlike Falco where you basically gamble with your opponent being an idiot who can't DI. Cons to Mewtwo? He's lighter than Falco, he's not a fast faller so his weight doesn't get "countered" for vertical kills, he has a larger hurtbox, and he has an average frame data. Of those 4 cons, average frame data is the least of Mewtwo's problems. Freaking Palutena and Zelda get away with like 3 freaking moves and they do fine, well, customs and even default Palutena. Don't know about Zelda, but Melee Zelda got away with Down Smash, Fair/Bair, and air dodge. Oh, and there's Lucario with his hit lag on everything and he does fine.
It's not consistent, though, which would be helpful if Dr. Mario just wants to land the strong hitbox at all times instead of dealing with 3 different hitboxes with the middle being the strongest.
Listed below are the characters used in the Top 8 of the two biggest events since 1.0.8. My goal is to discuss what, if anything, we can desypher from these results as far as character viability is concerned.
The data and sampling size is very small and the rules are arbitrary, but it seemed like an interesting way of dissecting things.
EVO Top 8
1. Zero
2. Mr. R
3. Nairo
4. Abadango *
5. Ally *
5. Dabuz *
7. FOW
7. ESAM
CEO Top 8
1. Zero
2. Nairo *
3. Dabuz
4. Larry Lur
5. MVD *
5. ESAM *
7. Shaky
7. Nick Riddle *
Doc's F-air is probably as strong as Ganon's. It's scary, and if you practice Mario's F-air spike all the time it should be feasible to land it. It feels better than Mario's simply on how it can kill both onstage and off-stage and as Ikes said, much more consistent.
I don't know much about pill reset... what's that again? But just remember Doc's F-air can kill at like 90% with rage iirc.
It's a hilarious move you can throw out at neutral and catch rookies who don't think you're going for a telegraphed Superman punch. AND IT WORKS! Remember kids, fighting dumb people is fun.
Frame data also says that Dr. Mario's Fair when sweet-spotted is stronger than Ganondorf's, but let's remember about Zelda and Captain Falcon and if they manage to consistently land their sweet-spotted Fairs.
Hasn't been updated since May, so no Lucas, Roy, Ryu, or any of the changes to Falco, Link, Ike, etc. According to the list, Mewtwo's below average at 38 which considering that Captain Falcon is at 46 and Ganondorf is at 52, but would be at 46 without his Utilt, that's not bad when the blazing Captain Falcon is actually slower on average than Mewtwo. It's still skewed since Captain Falcon would be using jab (3), Nair (7), Uair (6), and Bair (10) more than anything and that averages out to 6.5 frames. Don't know what Mewtwo would be using a lot, but for fastest five normals, he'd be hitting at 6.4 at rank 40 is just 0.4 slower than Captain Falcon at rank 35. Still pretty below average. Pretty sure someone else has a more complete and updated one out there.
Frame data (hitbox coming out) averages for each character from fastest to slowest. Normals only since specials are usually meant for different things than instantly hitting the opponent. All variations of grab are taken into account.
It's a hilarious move you can throw out at neutral and catch rookies who don't think you're going for a telegraphed Superman punch. AND IT WORKS! Remember kids, fighting dumb people is fun.
I have caught people off-guard and hit them with a Falcon Punch for the lulz of it. I once traded a FP with Ryu's U-smash and two red lightings appeared. He died seconds before me (I was pretty dang close to the blast zone. Had it been Wii U, I would've died first). It's hillarious that I posted it online .
Frame data also says that Dr. Mario's Fair when sweet-spotted is stronger than Ganondorf's, but let's remember about Zelda and Captain Falcon and if they manage to consistently land their sweet-spotted Fairs.
remember that while the hitbox may only be out for a few frames, considering how quick the animation is, those few frames could easily be the majority of the attack animation/arc.
Late to the frame data discussion, but Mewtwo has startups comparable to a sword character with somewhat lesser disjoint but also generally much less end lag. Jab, dtilt, and utilt are all disjointed and all quick to end, dsmash's end lag is low for a smash and safe on shield, and Shadow Ball has 25 frames of end lag. Which to put it in perspective, it's a high-powered killing projectile with only 2 more frames of endlag than Luigi's fireballs.
Also since was brought up, can we talk about how nuts his smashes are? Dsmash with a red pikmin is only -4~6 on shield after shield drop and it comes out frame 10, and fsmash is in a similar boat (actually even safer, I believe). Not suffering hitlag because it's attributed to the pikmin instead is a pretty big deal, though the frame data on said moves is good even without that.
Late to the frame data discussion, but Mewtwo has startups comparable to a sword character with somewhat lesser disjoint but also generally much less end lag. Jab, dtilt, and utilt are all disjointed
Mewtwo is unfortunately the one character whose tail is like 50% hurtbox instead of (15~)0%, but you can blow up Bob-ombs safely with all his tail attacks (and Gooey Bombs with bair) as long as the base portion of his tail isn't touched.
There is more raw disjoint on jab than dtilt though, even if the overall range is lesser.
I have caught people off-guard and hit them with a Falcon Punch for the lulz of it. I once traded a FP with Ryu's U-smash and two red lightings appeared. He died seconds before me (I was pretty dang close to the blast zone. Had it been Wii U, I would've died first). It's hillarious that I posted it online .
Landing Dr. Mario's F-air sweetspot is way easier than Falcon's/Zelda's.
Disagree. It's much easier to land a Zelda Lighting Kick sweetspot in almost all situations than Doc's F-air. Falcon Knee is a little easier to trap set up than Doc F-air though is slightly harder to land in neutral.
Doc/Mario F-airs are pretty crappy and generally shouldn't hit people for the most part.
Then show me a copy of this exact image with Mario on the receiving end.
...Huh?
Shadow Ball is useless in disadvantage. It's frame 23.
...Huh??
Outdated? Nothing about those hitboxes has been changed. And nothing else about this makes any sense.
We can land Disable in a lot of different ways too. (Landing traps, tech chases, etc.) It's transcendent and goes decently far. But yeah, we'll agree to disagree since I'm not super-sure on this MU.
Later tonight I'll upload some images for you, ill make it seem like marios hurtbox extends more than an entire character length from his body.
And the hitbox trails, I'll also get some screenshots for you to make it seem like other characters have no hitboxes on the attack trails, I just need time to upload all the images.
Disagree. It's much easier to land a Zelda Lighting Kick sweetspot in almost all situations than Doc's F-air. Falcon Knee is a little easier to trap set up than Doc F-air though is slightly harder to land in neutral.
Doc/Mario F-airs are pretty crappy and generally shouldn't hit people for the most part.
Falcon's knee is not hard to land at all against most mid-level opponents. Just save your double jump, read an airdodge, and double jump fastfall into the knee. Really clever opponents know not to airdodge until you've used your double jump, but those are rather rare.
I'm meh at this game, Doc is effectively a second main for me, and I land waaaaaay more Zelda lightning kicks than Doc F-airs.
The sweetspot hitbox is a bit more generous than you would expect, plus Zelda F-air/B-air have decent range and are frame 9/6 respectively. Landing lag sucks, but really, in simple punish situations, landing those moves is not actually that difficult. Especially since you can set up with D-tilt.
So do we consider Toon Link higher tier yet or is he still too underrepresented/overlooked to have a definite tier placing for him?
i mean the kid's got some of the best projectile game, good mobility and fantastic KO power (fair, bthrow, usmash, among others) and there's really not many glaring flaws about him other than his grab, which is still one of the faster tether grabs in the game if we're really gonna go there, not to mention he can force a lot of players into shield to confirm a grab.
I know for a fact Rosalina is a horrible matchup for him due to her gravitational pull pretty much invalidating all of his projectiles bar arrows (since they're very fast and hard to punish due to low endlag so it's very safe to throw them out anyways and can catch some players off guard) and his swordplay is admittedly slightly lacking in some ways, though his range is about that of Roy's and on a much smaller frame which is a fairly good ratio of sword sizeharacter size, and most of his moves lack significant endlag and come out quickly (especially his tilts, utilt is a fantastic combo tilt and ftilt is great when you dont want to commit to an fsmash, though I still haven't found much use in dtilt though maybe im just not looking into that move enough)
I'm honestly not sure where to put him at this point. High tier? Lower high tier? Upper mid? I can't see him having many bad matchups with the top tiers due to how strong his zoning/trapping game is with projectiles and his hit&run tactics work pretty well so he doesn't need to play campy. All of his projectiles have some form of combo potential, especially bombs and boomerangs, which are known to be able to set up into his most reliable kill moves (bthrow and fair), and projectiles can be used to mix up utilt strings (on more than one occasion i have gotten up thrown bombs or boomerangs to hit players stuck in my utilt combos)
Before anyone asks though, I'm not judging this on For Glory experience, I rarely play the gamemode.
I personally think this half-pint hero is far better than his taller, grittier counterpart and is a contender for high tier (maybe around Diddy, or if we're gonna undersell him, Villager, once we start seeing his optimal projectile play) but that could just be me.
So do we consider Toon Link higher tier yet or is he still too underrepresented/overlooked to have a definite tier placing for him?
i mean the kid's got some of the best projectile game, good mobility and fantastic KO power (fair, bthrow, usmash, among others) and there's really not many glaring flaws about him other than his grab, which is still one of the faster tether grabs in the game if we're really gonna go there, not to mention he can force a lot of players into shield to confirm a grab.
I know for a fact Rosalina is a horrible matchup for him due to her gravitational pull pretty much invalidating all of his projectiles bar arrows (since they're very fast and hard to punish due to low endlag so it's very safe to throw them out anyways and can catch some players off guard) and his swordplay is admittedly slightly lacking in some ways, though his range is about that of Roy's and on a much smaller frame which is a fairly good ratio of sword sizeharacter size, and most of his moves lack significant endlag and come out quickly (especially his tilts, utilt is a fantastic combo tilt and ftilt is great when you dont want to commit to an fsmash, though I still haven't found much use in dtilt though maybe im just not looking into that move enough)
I'm honestly not sure where to put him at this point. High tier? Lower high tier? Upper mid? I can't see him having many bad matchups with the top tiers due to how strong his zoning/trapping game is with projectiles and his hit&run tactics work pretty well so he doesn't need to play campy. All of his projectiles have some form of combo potential, especially bombs and boomerangs, which are known to be able to set up into his most reliable kill moves (bthrow and fair), and projectiles can be used to mix up utilt strings (on more than one occasion i have gotten up thrown bombs or boomerangs to hit players stuck in my utilt combos)
Before anyone asks though, I'm not judging this on For Glory experience, I rarely play the gamemode.
I personally think this half-pint hero is far better than his taller, grittier counterpart and is a contender for high tier (maybe around Diddy, or if we're gonna undersell him, Villager, once we start seeing his optimal projectile play) but that could just be me.
I think his biggest issue is how strong the shield is in this game. Yes his arrows are excellent for zoning and his bombs and boomerang are great, but they all get countered by shield. This is a huge problem for character like Tink who's damage is mostly made by projectiles. He also has okish recovery at best and he has a tether grab (maybe the best tether grab in game but still). Customs do help him a bit (Fiery Arrows), but they wont improve his game much.
If you ask me he is mid or high mid but that is very unlikely.
except that at high % his projectiles force shields which can be reacted to with a grab, meaning Tink can get grab semi-confirms out of his projectiles and then lead into a back throw
How to make attacks not hit, despite the enemy being in the attack trail. Its simple, its called the attack missed. http://imgur.com/8Texm9a
How to make a characters hurtbox look gigantic. You just take a screenshot a few frames after an attack hit them, as they extended a hurtbox http://imgur.com/SoyRtDX
On a related note, here is possibly the worst extended hitbox in the game I only found out about a few days ago, Yoshis fair. http://i.imgur.com/3jK8XEP.png http://gfycat.com/AmbitiousTintedHornshark
Do you see yet @RayNoire
how I can get screenshots to show some absurd hitbox/hurtboxes? With the perfect circumstances I can make things happen that would make you think Mewtwo is high tier, but they wont play out in a real match very often.
This is why screenshots showing his attacks missing are pointless, because I can make his attacks hit from a mile away if I wanted to.
except that at high % his projectiles force shields which can be reacted to with a grab, meaning Tink can get grab semi-confirms out of his projectiles and then lead into a back throw
Which projectile of Tink is fast enough to force me to hold a shield in front of him instead of trying to dodge the move? I can only think of a fully charged Arrow, which has enough Wind Up for me to react to, i.e. space myself further away from you before I shield so you can't grab me out of it. For Boomerangs and Bombs, I feel like Shield is definitely not the only option available to me, so unless I have a wrong understanding of "forcing shield", I'd really appreciate if you went into more detail.
Here in Germany, we have a few Tink players, but the consensus I've gathered from asking them was that they do have big trouble dealing with shields.
I feel like his most reliable kill options against defensive opponents are pressuring the opponent with bombs and forcing a mistake, capitalizing on that with fair/bair/running usmash/other fast options depending on what your opponent did.
Characters I think Mewtwo has at least a slight advantage against:
Mewtwo in general has a good time against larger characters because he doesn't have to worry as much about his attacks whiffing. Charizard in particular is I think vulnerable to this because he doesn't have quite the kill power of the other heavies (though still a good amount). Another big thing is that Flare Blitz is a really bad idea against Mewtwo. Like, people say that you shouldn't Flare Blitz against anyone, but Mewtwo can literally shield, dash forward and instantly do one of the strongest up smashes in the game.
I know some people disagree with this, but I think Mewtwo still does well against Lucario, winning neutral, neutralizing Aura Sphere, and being able to exploit holes in offense with some strong attacks.
Re: Villager, Mewtwo's Reflect can be baited but the large Reflect Window can be nasty. Dash attacks get tossed aside. Reflecting lloid rocket at close range will simultaneously pick up Villager AND launch the rocket into him. Slingshots off the ledge can also get eaten by reflect.
Closer to 5:5
This isn't to say all of the other characters are 4:6 or worse, I just haven't thought as much about them. Also somewhat ironically I think Mewtwo's best against himself.
Thing is when people try to theorycraft Mewtwo's matchups there always seems to be this "anti-Ganon" asterisk in their minds.
You know how when most people talk Ganon matchups, no matter how badly he gets beat in neutral or whatever he can always turn it around with the right reads or punishes. It generally seems to go the other way with Mewtwo: even when it looks like he wins neutral people remind themselves of how easily he can die which makes it hard to imagine scores above even.
@Browny
Varying degrees of sarcasm can be hard to accurately gauge but... it seems like you're asserting mewtwo outdisjoints Marth... although you're definitely down tilting on Marth for a different timing than Mewtwo.
AND that "measuring disjoint" is also suss due to the way Z-axis shenanigans go.
@Browny
Varying degrees of sarcasm can be hard to accurately gauge but... it seems like you're asserting mewtwo outdisjoints Marth... although you're definitely down tilting on Marth for a different timing than Mewtwo.
AND that "measuring disjoint" is also suss due to the way Z-axis shenanigans go.
How was I sarcastic? Sarcasm would be me saying the exact opposite of what is true, yet I was simply stating the facts.
Those images of Mewtwos wonky hitboxes have been going around for ages and they are just as inaccurate as ever I wish people would stop referring to them. The attacks missed and/or the enemy fell into the trail after the attack was completed. There's nothing else to it.
At absolutely no time was I able to hit Mewtwos dtilt with marth, and not have marth take the hit while the opposite was true many times.
My way of measuring the disjoint makes perfect sense to me, Mewtwo didnt take damage despite the fsmash smacking right into his tail.
Its close, but I think, in light of all that screenshot proof; Mewtwos dtilt has a larger disjoint than Marths dtilt. Since I have never managed to hit mewtwo from a distance where marth couldnt be hit, I see no evidence against what I am claiming here.
I swear if anyone challenges this with 'Marth's dtilt has a bigger disjoint, that's obvious' or anything that doesn't involve concrete evidence to disprove all the work that I just did, I'm calling the cyber police.
Zelda and Villager is a thing since Villager can Pocket Phantom Slash. Not sure about how well Pocketing a Din's Fire would go and Farore's Wind is probably not Pocketable. The fact Farore's Wind kills and that in doubles Zelda isn't always on the spotlight and if she is, someone can bail her out is terrifying. She can be anywhere, she can punish severely, and everything bad about her gets countered by the right partners.
Any team with is hilarious because if they can keep a wall going, Robin can get a Thoron+ charged up, and one single mistake or overcommitment means your stock hits the road at 60%.
Either pair him up with someone who can easily avoid the Thoron (), someone who can armor through it, someone who can reflect/absorb it(), or simply someone who is heavy enough to tank the hit () and take advantage of the rage given from taking 30% damage, and let the lulz begin.
And if the Robin team gets it down to a 2v1 situation, you just need one grab. From there, just imitate Piccolo's Special Beam Cannon. :3
what characters are better in doubles as opposed to their singles counterparts? i can think of: . but are there more? conversely, what characters get worse in doubles?
Diddy Kong + Jigglypuff seems good as well since Diddy Kong helps Jigglypuff find kills by setting up bananas and he can simply Jab/F-tilt her to wake her up.
I think ZeRo and H-Box has shown how good this team can be due to CEO doubles and that other tournament I forgot.
what characters are better in doubles as opposed to their singles counterparts? i can think of: . but are there more? conversely, what characters get worse in doubles?
I want to say DK. I've had some tremendous matches with a DK backing me up: great space control and rewarding kill setups if your doubles partner is judicious with their toolkit, while a partner with decent range can mitigate his lag and whiff.
Ganondorf is also a great in doubles if you have a good partner. Flame Choke tech-chase sets up for some excellent kill confirms and a fighter with range to help out can be a huge boon to him too.
You can also do some truly disgusting tricks for style with Warlock Punch. Partner's grab-release -> turning Warlock Punch is just filthy and hysterical. Hell, I've had good results with just getting my friend to stunlock the opposing team and then just Warlock Punching them both into oblivion!
Hmm... Should we make a list of different roles? Like Wario being in tank and support part? Like counterpart for tier list in singles, but more interesting?
Dr. Mario and Mario's Fair startup is 16 frames and while Dr. Mario's kills early, it doesn't spike. Ganondorf's Fair startup is 14 frames and is pretty similar in strength, but it's faster and consistent. So, why not the Doc's too? The fact it doesn't spike, but is still slow as one while having 3 hitboxes like Mario's where the late hit is the weakest, early hit is the second weakest, and the middle hit is the strongest, but guess what? The middle hit doesn't come out until frame 17 which for Mario, spikes, for Dr. Mario? Does 16.8% which hey, Ganondorf already does a consistent 16% or 17% through his Fair's hit frames of 14-19; 6 active frames. At 16, Doc does 11.2%, 17-19, 16.8%, and 21-22, 10.08%. For a total of 7 active frames, you only have 3 active frames for the good hit which begins 3 frames slower than Ganondorf's. If Dr. Mario's was a frame 16-22 move that consistently did 16%, that might be better or if it was made quicker like frame 15-21 or 14-20 while doing 15%, that might be better since there's this consistent hit of it's going to kill at that one percent and always that one percent instead of having to make sure you land the right hit. Or we could go with a frame 10-16 move that only does 12%. It'd be weaker, but it'd be a lot faster.
In 1.0.6 Dr. Mario's Fair was changed to hit the same way as Mario's. So early hit is frame 16, sweetspot is 17-20, and late hit is 21. This now applies to both characters. They simply reduced the late hit by 1 frame for Dr. Mario. This was a reason why I messed up Fair sometimes with Doc so I wished and prayed for this exact buff and they did it.
@Browny
Varying degrees of sarcasm can be hard to accurately gauge but... it seems like you're asserting mewtwo outdisjoints Marth... although you're definitely down tilting on Marth for a different timing than Mewtwo.
AND that "measuring disjoint" is also suss due to the way Z-axis shenanigans go.
I think + could be a good team. Mario could set-up a Falcon Punch with his FLUDD, also Mario could thrown a Fireball and Falcon would just run with the Fireball and get a grab. Or even Captain Falcon's Up Air and then Mario could kill with Fair to make a powerful spike. And both of them have really good grab combos and good Up Airs. + Could also be good. I just saw in my mind this: Hydro Pump, it pushes Sheik though the Stage and Sheik gets a Tipper Up Smash. Both of them have good speed and nice aerials. So they could help each other. Sheik could cover Greninja's Approaches with Needles or Greninja could connect Water Shurikens with Sheik's Fair and gimp a recovery. Just my opinion.
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