Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[warionumbah2]

@ ZTD | TECHnology Is the batman of dubz.

Spoiler

MK has a handful of bad partners, bowser + mk is imo a terrible team. He's huge and constantly needs baby sitting and I mean constantly. If he's paired with a support esq character it'll be an awkward team, such as villager + mk. He tends to work well with characters that are aggresive or characters that complement his moveset well.

MKs role is to support and take center stage, he always sets up 2v1 situations then dips to 1v1 with his dance partner. http://imgur.com/GRYr4ka All MK really has to do is keep characters on lock in mid range, sometimes you don't have to move much since MK is scary at mid range so he basically acts like a wall. If his partner is in trouble he DA's then runs back to keep the other guy busy, his role is literally to play batman. DA keeps his victims in hitstun for years which allows his teammate to reverse the bad situation they were previously in http://imgur.com/N8swWyr

He's also a stock tanker since he's basically kirby but fast and has a teleport special, has a good roll as well. His teammate shouldn't be babysitting MK much since he's mostly always gonna make it back on stage. In free for all he's an opportunist, fast and small he'll rarely get hit or die despite his weight and he'll come out the shadows and steal kills with shuttle loop. His f smash makes a loud gun shot noise since most of the time you won't see MK runnig around, all his specials are to aid his mobility. Now transfer that to doubles, his teammate wants him to steal kills, his teammate wants him to jump around and be hard to hit.

Yoshi is a brilliant teammate for MK, there's no gimmicks but their moves complement each pther well. Both their DAs are great for setting up kills for each other.

The only gimmick team to my knowledge is mario + mk FLUDD is janky as hell light weights get 0 to death by this thing http://imgur.com/9beRjuR
Mario also steals the spotlight and goes insane in doubles while MK backs him up

My favourite and most likely the 2nd best team for mks is marth + mk, his down throw sets up uair combos perfectly, shield break gimmick, strong edgeguard team where marth goes low and MK goes high and marths up special aids shuttle loop kills (got buffed apparently). http://imgur.com/2A3uzhx + http://imgur.com/7rBfC9M

C.falcon is ok but the main thing these two got is their insane jabs near the ledge http://imgur.com/vAcj0Mh

Then off course top tiers are ok.

If MUs are a thing in dubz, then Mario will have a bad time with MK. MK walls him out with f smash microspacing and keeps him from helping his teammate, Mario generally struggles to pin MK down due to his poor mid range options. He also doesnt have as much stage to work with which allows MK to get into his comfort zone easily. Also MK rippedthe ike + mac team apart by making little mac his personal ***** and ike being too slow to hold macs hand.

Glad G&W + Sheik isn't a thing no more

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Everytime i finish reading one of Ffamran's post, I leave thinking is the worst character in the game.

 

[meleebrawler]

Everytime i finish reading one of Ffamran's post, I leave thinking is the worst character in the game.

Spoiler

He puts down Falco constantly so that he can feel proud for maining a low-tier, and wants you to know it.

 

[Ffamran]

Everytime i finish reading one of Ffamran's post, I leave thinking is the worst character in the game.

Yes, my evil plan is working... Falco will be so underrated so that he can take tournaments by storm as people didn't even know he existed! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Spoiler

He puts down Falco constantly so that he can feel proud for maining a low-tier, and wants you to know it.

Nah, I just like putting down every character. Want me to rant about why Fox is bad?

 

[Djent]

Just a heads up that in addition to EVO, Sumabato 4 also took place this weekend. Keep an eye out for videos uploading soon, at which point I'll have more to say about ///.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

is one of the most underatted doubles partners. I consistently take Top 3 in doubles in my state (just won one this past weekend) and consistently make money in regional events as well. @ warionumbah2 's synopsis is on point. + is incredible even without Fluddnado but and several others also work very well. Happy to provide further information. I may be the only MK besides Ito who does well in doubles consistently with the character (then again we kind stay in our bat cave and stay lowkey).

 

[MistressRemilia]

Yes, my evil plan is working... Falco will be so underrated so that he can take tournaments by storm as people didn't even know he existed! MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!


Nah, I just like putting down every character. Want me to rant about why Fox is bad?

Psssshhh, you'll get Ike treatment 2.0, Falco for high tier, easy win

 

[NachoOfCheese]

It's a hilarious move you can throw out at neutral and catch rookies who don't think you're going for a telegraphed Superman punch. AND IT WORKS! Remember kids, fighting dumb people is fun.

Frame data also says that Dr. Mario's Fair when sweet-spotted is stronger than Ganondorf's, but let's remember about Zelda and Captain Falcon and if they manage to consistently land their sweet-spotted Fairs.


Hasn't been updated since May, so no Lucas, Roy, Ryu, or any of the changes to Falco, Link, Ike, etc. According to the list, Mewtwo's below average at 38 which considering that Captain Falcon is at 46 and Ganondorf is at 52, but would be at 46 without his Utilt, that's not bad when the blazing Captain Falcon is actually slower on average than Mewtwo. It's still skewed since Captain Falcon would be using jab (3), Nair (7), Uair (6), and Bair (10) more than anything and that averages out to 6.5 frames. Don't know what Mewtwo would be using a lot, but for fastest five normals, he'd be hitting at 6.4 at rank 40 is just 0.4 slower than Captain Falcon at rank 35. Still pretty below average. Pretty sure someone else has a more complete and updated one out there.

Zelda can't reliably combo into Lightning Kicks, which makes a world of difference. It's part of why Brawl's physics screwed Falcon over because he couldn't combo at all due to hitstun cancelling.

 

[Ffamran]

Zelda can't reliably combo into Lightning Kicks, which makes a world of difference. It's part of why Brawl's physics screwed Falcon over because he couldn't combo at all due to hitstun cancelling.

I meant more of how strong Zelda and Captain Falcon's Fair (and Bair for Zelda) are compared to Dr. Mario and Ganondorf's. In a perfect setting, if Zelda, Captain Falcon, and Marth were able to consistently landing their sweet-spots, they would be incredibly powerful, but factoring everything else, it's not possible or that useful and landing them too much stales them, so there's that too. Like you said, Zelda can't combo or reliably setup her Fair/Bair, but in doubles, that might not be a problem. As for Captain Falcon, you've got Uair to Knee, but how are you going to do that all the time? It's not even as easy as Fox and Yoshi's jab to Smash which aren't guaranteed.

 

[Macchiato]

I feel like peach is the most underrated and with the most potential.

Can't wait for the Peach army to take ove... I mean what.

 

[C0rvus]

Peach's pressure and mixup game is pretty crazy and she has a high learning curve. Dunno how effective she is at dealing witht the relevant threats in the current meta, though.

 

[Macchiato]

Peach's pressure and mixup game is pretty crazy and she has a high learning curve. Dunno how effective she is at dealing witht the relevant threats in the current meta, though.

She's even with Rosalina and Captain Falcon

Zelda can't reliably combo into Lightning Kicks, which makes a world of difference. It's part of why Brawl's physics screwed Falcon over because he couldn't combo at all due to hitstun cancelling.

SH dair into fair
Dtilt into fair

 

[DanGR]

I don't have relevant experience in the Peach-Rosalina matchup, but just looking at Peach's tools and her excellent anti-Luma options, I wouldn't be surprised if Peach won the matchup handily.

 

[Ikes]

Villager and Pac-Man are pretty good support characters in doubles.



This is a lot closer to the truth than it should be.

if only trinen didnt cancel his appearance at EVO
I like to think he's secretly the best player in the world

 

[RayNoire]

@Browny, gfycat isn't letting me upload anything so here's what I'll do. I'll put a call out to the Mewtwo boards for someone to record a video complilation of every hitbox and hurtbox issue. Once I have that I will post it here.

Also Mewtwo's hurtbox stretches out behind him, not in front. It's very noticeable when tech-rolling backwards and ledge-rolling.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

She's even with Rosalina and Captain Falcon


SH dair into fair
Dtilt into fair

"Reliably"
If Dtilt true combo'd into Lightning Kicks at a wide range of percents with good DI there would be a LOT more Zelda mains.
Dair is slow and extremely unsafe on sheild and has a small sweetspot. Just because DK can Dair to Up air to kill at 90 doesn't mean it's reliable, safe, or even worth it. The reward isn't nearly good enough for the risk, and it's too slow to use as a punish option. Same goes for Zelda's Dair.

 

[HFlash]

I feel like peach is the most underrated and with the most potential.

Can't wait for the Peach army to take ove... I mean what.

Definitely up there with Peach is . Using his monandos seamlessly and in the right situations is not an easy task. Which is why unless you straight up main him, people avoid because you can't really "pocket" him nor easily pick him up. Resulting in not alot of people playing him, and having his metagame under developed.

 

[Ghostbone]

is one of the most underatted doubles partners. I consistently take Top 3 in doubles in my state (just won one this past weekend) and consistently make money in regional events as well. @ warionumbah2 's synopsis is on point. + is incredible even without Fluddnado but and several others also work very well. Happy to provide further information. I may be the only MK besides Ito who does well in doubles consistently with the character (then again we kind stay in our bat cave and stay lowkey).

Can attest to MK + Luigi being really good.
Nado > Cyclone is pretty hilarious.

 

[TriTails]

I think Luigi and Jigglypuff wil fare well with most characters because all their partners have to do is grab + FJP/Rest. Maybe not the tether ones, though, or the likes of Mega Man who hold his opponent high.

Their speed might be a hidrance though.

 

[C0rvus]

The number of times I have heard people say Shulk has tons of potential is ridiculous at this point. Sure he has Monado Arts, but those are very telegraphed. Monado Art Cancelling is cool but so incredibly situational. And having faster dash speed or jumping higher for 10 seconds doesn't fix his awful frame data. Not saying he has no potential, but I'm personally not very impressed with his kit. When you activate an Art, it's like turning to your opponent and saying "Oh, hey. I'm going to try and bait a grab now!" or "Get ready for me to go offstage after you!" I dunno, 9B dropped him, John Numbers doesn't play him anymore, Trela plays half the cast at this point. I've tried him and seen others play him, but I just feel like despite his clear strengths and ability to swap his stats a bit, he's a very simple and transparent character.

 

[Ikes]

I just think shulk is straight up kinda bad, considering every art opens him up to greater counterplay
i mean having buffs is one thing, being forced to take debuffs as well is awful

 

[hypersonicJD]

Shulk could use some frame data fixes though. Nair it's really laggy in the air. And Forward Tilt it's so laggy too. I wouldn't change Down Smash though. That move is perfect for me and shouldn't be buffed or nerfed. You can get your opponent in Shield Pressure but your opponent can punish you after you finish the attack. It's balanced for me. Also Up Air could use some speed. But it's asking too much right?

Anyway, nobody actually paid attention to my doubles teams u.u

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Shulk could use some frame data fixes though. Nair it's really laggy in the air. And Forward Tilt it's so laggy too. I wouldn't change Down Smash though. That move is perfect for me and shouldn't be buffed or nerfed. You can get your opponent in Shield Pressure but your opponent can punish you after you finish the attack. It's balanced for me. Also Up Air could use some speed. But it's asking too much right?

Anyway, nobody actually paid attention to my doubles teams u.u

Saying Shulk could use some frame data fixes is like asking for a heavier Melee Fox.

 

[HFlash]

Well, the general consensus for Metaknight in Smash 4 is that Metaknight was bad until some well known MetaKnight mains such as Ito became popularized. If you don't know who he is, look him up. He makes Metaknight look like a high tier character, and better than he really is. There is no such person for Shulk as far as I know. Correct me if otherwise.

 

[Macchiato]

Well, the general consensus for Metaknight in Smash 4 is that Metaknight was bad until some well known MetaKnight mains such as Ito became popularized. If you don't know who he is, look him up. He makes Metaknight look like a high tier character, and better than he really is. There is no such person for Shulk as far as I know. Correct me if otherwise.

Trela is the closest thing but he dropped him a while ago.

 

[san.]

Saying Shulk could use some frame data fixes is like asking for a heavier Melee Fox.

Give Shulk (and Ike) 3 frame jabs. Bam, done. Shulk may need IASA tweaks to jab2 and 3 as well.

Shulk's jab being so slow allows others to get away with a ton of stuff. A usable jab will allow him to be competent enough on the ground to hold his own and give him a decent enough OoS option other than grab.

 

[C0rvus]

Anyway, nobody actually paid attention to my doubles teams u.u

Well, for what it's worth we got to see the Greninja/Sheik team at Apex 2015 with aMSa and Nietono I believe. Greninja's throws set Sheik up for Up Smash kills and the team's mobility creates good synergy since they can both get to where they need to be to help each other out. But you could pair most characters up with Sheik and they would make a decent team.

On the topic of players repping underused characters, Ito and Tyrant do make MK look high tier, but he might actually be. And that character's strengths are much more apparent and useful than Shulk's. Shulk is outclassed as a spacing character by Marth, and Ike has better frame data (or at least better moves overall) and is more consistent in general. I would love to see someone step up and take Shulk places, but it just seems like he's being put down, which pushes me more and more to just consider him pretty bad.

 

[HFlash]

Well, for what it's worth we got to see the Greninja/Sheik team at Apex 2015 with aMSa and Nietono I believe. Greninja's throws set Sheik up for Up Smash kills and the team's mobility creates good synergy since they can both get to where they need to be to help each other out. But you could pair most characters up with Sheik and they would make a decent team.

On the topic of players repping underused characters, Ito and Tyrant do make MK look high tier, but he might actually be. And that character's strengths are much more apparent and useful than Shulk's. Shulk is outclassed as a spacing character by Marth, and Ike has better frame data (or at least better moves overall) and is more consistent in general. I would love to see someone step up and take Shulk places, but it just seems like he's being put down, which pushes me more and more to just consider him pretty bad.

You lost me at Marth outclassing Shulk. Shulk has more range and speed than marth so how can he possibly be better than Marth at spacing? That's like saying Roy outclasses Marth as a Spacing character. Furthermore, in this game, Marth is forced play defensively due to his reduced range, reduced combo ability, and reduced frame data compared to his other iterations which for people like me and Mr. R, caused us to drop the character. Shulk's moves have more range, and he moves alot quicker than marth, which gives him more options to work with.
Example you can do with monando cancelling: Use speed monando to dash grab someone, cancel to smash to bthrow them far off stage, and cancel to jump to fair them far off stage. I would go as far to say that he can be as creative as Pacman can be, but no one has been able to do so in a big stage unlike Abadango. Thus, the potential for Shulk's kit isn't really appreciated.

 

[C0rvus]

You lost me at Marth outclassing Shulk. Shulk has more range and speed than marth so how can he possibly be better than Marth at spacing? That's like saying Roy outclasses Marth as a Spacing character. Furthermore, in this game, Marth is forced play defensively due to his reduced range, reduced combo ability, and reduced frame data compared to his other iterations which for people like me and Mr. R, caused us to drop the character. Shulk's moves have more range, and he moves alot quicker than marth, which gives him more options to work with.
Example you can do with monando cancelling: Use speed monando to dash grab someone, cancel to smash to bthrow them far off stage, and cancel to jump to fair them far off stage. I would go as far to say that he can be as creative as Pacman can be, but no one has been able to do so in a big stage unlike Abadango. Thus, the potential for Shulk's kit isn't really appreciated.

Comparing Marth to previous iterations makes him seem terrible. Most of the characters in this game were nerfed from Brawl. Marth has just as much range as Brawl. He isn't nearly as dominant as he used to be for many reasons I'm sure you're aware of, but he's better at his job than Shulk is. Marth in this game is a ground-based character, and he uses his top walk speed and pretty good ground moves to keep his opponents at a fixed distance. Shulk has Nair I guess, which is longer than Marth's moves, but he has to be in the air to use it (which is a pretty big commitment) and it has startup a plenty. Shulk's ground moves are pretty crappy. Shulk can be more aggressive thanks to speed and jump Monado, but he isn't as good at spacing as Marth.

Also that isn't what Monado Art Cancelling is, unless I've been totally mis-informed. If he could gatling between arts mid-combo, that would certainly make him better lol. And Pac Man has way more creative tools than Shulk, and there are more ways you can apply them. Shulk is incredibly cut-and-dry, unfortunately.

 

[Ffamran]

Give Shulk (and Ike) 3 frame jabs. Bam, done. Shulk may need IASA tweaks to jab2 and 3 as well.

Shulk's jab being so slow allows others to get away with a ton of stuff. A usable jab will allow him to be competent enough on the ground to hold his own and give him a decent enough OoS option other than grab.

Shulk's jab being frame 5 makes me sad... I think he sort of can do a similar jab repeat like Ike, but it's slower and I don't think it links as well as Ike. Ike's frame 4 jab is okay, though. Not bad, but not really good. Frame 5 is kind of bad when it gets to the point where Shulk's fastest move is frame 5 followed by a frame followed by a frame 7 standing grab, frame 9 dash grab, frame 10 pivot grab, Dtilt, and Air Slash, and then frame 11 Utilt. After all of that, everything is frame 12 or above. Ike on the other hand has a frame 4 jab, frame 7 standing grab and Dtilt, frame 10 dash grab, frame 11 Utilt and pivot grab, frame 13 Ftilt and Down Smash, and if done frame perfectly, a frame 14 Bair since his jumpsquat is frame 7.

Shulk's jumpsquat is frame 5, but his fastest aerial is frame 13, so that's frame 18 if done perfectly. If they're just airborne, except for Dair (16), all of Ike's aerials are faster than Shulk's fastest aerials of Nair (13), Uair, Fair, and Dair (14). With all of Ike's aerials, Ike's slowest aerial of 16 frames is still 2 frames faster than Shulk's Bair of 18 frames. Range is great for Shulk, but in some cases, it's not great when another swordsman has one extremely fast aerial on you. Sure, it has less range, but Ike's constant good air speed and ability to move in the air well can let him Bair Shulk a bit easier.

Sources: Ike's frame data and Shulk's frame data.

On another note, nobody in Smash has a projectile like Kyo Kusanagi and Iori Yagami's 108-Shiki Yami Barai, right? It's basically like a traveling land mine, but I wonder how that would interact with Smash. In the air, it could either travel horizontally, but fired low or it could function like Mario's Fireballs where it drops down and if it's down at a short hop, it could just continue travel the rest of the distance on the ground.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

You lost me at Marth outclassing Shulk. Shulk has more range and speed than marth so how can he possibly be better than Marth at spacing? That's like saying Roy outclasses Marth as a Spacing character. Furthermore, in this game, Marth is forced play defensively due to his reduced range, reduced combo ability, and reduced frame data compared to his other iterations which for people like me and Mr. R, caused us to drop the character. Shulk's moves have more range, and he moves alot quicker than marth, which gives him more options to work with.
Example you can do with monando cancelling: Use speed monando to dash grab someone, cancel to smash to bthrow them far off stage, and cancel to jump to fair them far off stage. I would go as far to say that he can be as creative as Pacman can be, but no one has been able to do so in a big stage unlike Abadango. Thus, the potential for Shulk's kit isn't really appreciated.

Marth has better frame data on his spacing moves, more sheildstun on those spacing moves, and he can actually weave in and out. Shulk can't really change direction in the air. Thus, yes, Marth is better at spacing. But yeah Shulk does have better approach options but that doesn't matter because Marth doesn't approach. He spaces, baits, and punishes. But you're right. Marth doesn't outclass Shulk and it's because they don't have the same gameplan.

Give Shulk (and Ike) 3 frame jabs. Bam, done. Shulk may need IASA tweaks to jab2 and 3 as well.

Shulk's jab being so slow allows others to get away with a ton of stuff. A usable jab will allow him to be competent enough on the ground to hold his own and give him a decent enough OoS option other than grab.

I'm all for Shulk getting a frame 3 jab, but not much else. His frame data is his balancing factor.

 

[alexthepony]

 

[Gamegenie222]

LMAO Abadango too good also first post in new thread hype.

 

[mario123007]

"Sigh" as a Rosalina main, I'm actually disappointed... hope Dabuz can get his revenge back.

 

[Ffamran]

"Sigh" as a Rosalina main, I'm actually disappointed... hope Dabuz can get his revenge back.

So, a revengeance? Dabuz is gonna need a new body to do that.

Still, I think lack of MU experience did Dabuz in there along with Abandango having experienced Dabuz's Rosalina and knowing how he worked. Aside from Jeepysol who's one coast away from Dabuz, I can't think of anyone "near" Dabuz who mains Wario or Pac-Man.

 

[HFlash]

"Sigh" as a Rosalina main, I'm actually disappointed... hope Dabuz can get his revenge back.

Umm, the name, default pic, and main icons suggest that you are a Mario main. Could of fooled me.

 

[outfoxd]

Waft is such a terrifying trump card.

 

[mario123007]

So, a revengeance? Dabuz is gonna need a new body to do that.

Still, I think lack of MU experience did Dabuz in there along with Abandango having experienced Dabuz's Rosalina and knowing how he worked. Aside from Jeepysol who's one coast away from Dabuz, I can't think of anyone "near" Dabuz who mains Wario or Pac-Man.

Yeah, perhaps he just need to get better...

Yeah, I do admit Abadango is really good at Wario and Pacman, especially his Pacman, which is awesome.

Umm, the name, default pic, and main icons suggest that you are a Mario main. Could of fooled me.

Look at my sig...
I don't just main Mario (I actually seldom using him because I wanted to get good with other characters. Like Rosalina and Shulk.)

 

[ZcK]

The number of times I have heard people say Shulk has tons of potential is ridiculous at this point. Sure he has Monado Arts, but those are very telegraphed. Monado Art Cancelling is cool but so incredibly situational. And having faster dash speed or jumping higher for 10 seconds doesn't fix his awful frame data. Not saying he has no potential, but I'm personally not very impressed with his kit. When you activate an Art, it's like turning to your opponent and saying "Oh, hey. I'm going to try and bait a grab now!" or "Get ready for me to go offstage after you!" I dunno, 9B dropped him, John Numbers doesn't play him anymore, Trela plays half the cast at this point. I've tried him and seen others play him, but I just feel like despite his clear strengths and ability to swap his stats a bit, he's a very simple and transparent character.

First of all the monado arts last for 16 seconds if Im not wrong and activating an art doesn`t necesarily means Shulk is going to commit to certain playstyle like going for the grab, and is not like you can do a lot of stuff once you are offstage with a character that can go almost anywhere to gimp you. Also the Monado Arts Landing lag cancel is indeed situational but useful considering the nature of his aerials and given enough training they become practical and can help him in a plethora of situations like landing with an aerial or just doing nothing since an art activation has a very short window of invincibility that sometimes helps. Now in theory it sounds fantastic having a shulk cancelling all of his aerials giving him the safeness of a sheik but with range and shield damage, but who knows, 20XX not here yet.

Also when a character can follow you to the depths of battlefield, switch from a defensive and spacing position to an aggresive one or just a campy one. He can play almost any way the game allows him to, thats not simple nor transparent.

But yeah that does not solve the fact that his frame data makes ganon look like sheik and the fact that some of his aerials have the marth hitbox syndrome and have narrow hitboxes too (Up Air and Down Air). Also the fact that none of his aerials autocancel after almost a second. But at least their landig lag is not that much in the most important ones and the FAF window for Forward Air is decent(Frame 41)

Considering such that would be almost a low tier sentence to someone with no range but shulk has, even if it takes 14 frames to initiate his faster aerial to hit in front of him (Fair because nair hits in front of him much later), how much will it take to the opponent get into shulk and initiate an aerial ?, maybe not much but it certainly helps.

He has the tools to compete, he has a back air that covers almost a third of Final destination, with horrendous landing lag too, a forward air that combos into itself and can push you to the blastzone at stupid low percentages, some neat rewards when landing those risky moves (But c`mon F-smash has more lag than fricking Ike`s). And when on a disadvantage state on buster for example he can just cancel that thing whenever a combo starts, a stellar recovery when on Jump or speed because that air speed is fantastic but that recovery can be bullpoop because it doesnt snap the ledge, but it defends him well enough, its frame 10 and has range so its a really good Oos option given the poor range of his standing grab and the stuff from his jab.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Everytime i finish reading one of Ffamran's post, I leave thinking is the worst character in the game.

At least we can all agree D3 is bad without much convincing, right?

Smooth Criminal