Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[alexthepony]

Did I make a thread and did it get moved or did I accidentally post it here?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Can attest to MK + Luigi being really good.
Nado > Cyclone is pretty hilarious.

YES. This man knows.

 

[Strong-Arm]

Who, in your opinion, do you guys think the most slept on/underrated characters are? Since customs are slowly becoming common place I believe 2122 Ganondorf and 3132 Mii Gunner are slept on.

 

[Shaya]

Did I make a thread and did it get moved or did I accidentally post it here?

You made a thread and as it isn't exactly a valid sole topic I thought it would get more attention here without much mess, which was the case.

 

[Ikes]

Umm, the name, default pic, and main icons suggest that you are a Mario main. Could of fooled me.

he apparently has like 12 or so mains

spreading yourself thin there, pal

At least we can all agree D3 is bad without much convincing, right?

Smooth Criminal

Why do you feel the need to constantly remind people that you main Dedede and think he's bad? We get it.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Why do you feel the need to constantly remind people that you main Dedede and think he's bad? We get it.

How many other D3 mains populate the topic on a frequent basis? Maybe one?

Thought so.

And if you're gonna give me grief for talking about my character in this topic, I suggest you start aiming down your prick at other people that talk about their characters with just as much frequency. Don't call me out for something as inane as making a lighthearted, self-deprecating comment about a character when a lot of other people do the same.

Smooth Criminal

 

[wm1026]

I think we should talk about Yoshi. Like what makes him a good character? Why is he under represented? What is keeping him from winning tournaments? I am just curious because I keep seeing him rated so high with few results. Only high level or basically any level really is Denti. So any thoughts on this?

 

[Snackss]

Kirby.
Ridiculous character.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I'm all for Shulk getting a frame 3 jab, but not much else. His frame data is his balancing factor.

This really is on the money. Sometimes I try to think of a buff for him and then my brain goes "wait, how would that effect Shulk in X art?" Like I'm always pissed off about his mediocre grab range and that it should be longer but then I remember that in speed a better grab range would be really freaking good. I'm just imagining that his arts are the reason that he hasn't been touched since his suite of damage buffs and art adjustments in the Wii U patch. He definitely could stand to have a buff or two (seriously a frame 3 jab would be just wonderful), but if you don't take his many factors into account things might get a bit crazy.

I will say that him choosing an art acting like a signal to the opponent...never really seemed like a big deal to me? Regardless of the art he's in his primary gameplan is to space the frick out of you with his big-ass sword. The arts just give him extra options that yes you can see coming but like...I know Diddy's going to pull a banana and try to make a setup with it but that doesn't mean I get a free pass you know? In the same sense yeah Jump Shulk is probably about to jump off and edgeguard you from anywhere but you still have to time the airdodge right.

I think you wouldn't be wrong in saying Shulk is kinda meh even with all his tricks but I wouldn't call the ability to add to your gameplan on the fly a weakness.

 

[TKOWL]

I think we should talk about Yoshi. Like what makes him a good character? Why is he under represented? What is keeping him from winning tournaments? I am just curious because I keep seeing him rated so high with few results. Only high level or basically any level really is Denti. So any thoughts on this?

Yoshi just sits in an awkward spot, he has amazing frame data, a good projectile and little lag issues but has throws that don't combo into anything and an extremely awkward jump, plus his larger-than-normal frame can cause him to be a big target. His matchups against several top tiers like Mario, Sheik and Rosa are also stacked up against him, from what I've experienced.

That's the reasons I can pull up, I'm still confused as to why Yoshi isn't getting much rep, maybe the other top tiers are just a lot better?

 

[Seagull Joe]

Okay, can we please not have posts that go out of their way to use character icons when the context of the post was already fixated on them? Like please. It's really ugly.
Seagull Joe tends to keep it to just ONE instance of a character per post and keeps it concise nevertheless. Please.

LOL. Others hardly ever do it right.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I think we should talk about Yoshi. Like what makes him a good character? Why is he under represented? What is keeping him from winning tournaments? I am just curious because I keep seeing him rated so high with few results. Only high level or basically any level really is Denti. So any thoughts on this?

All Yoshi needs is a safe neutral imo, but I guess that'd make him a bit too good? Not going to claim I know Yoshi or anything, but I feel like the only thing holding him back is that can't really play footsies in neutral, so he's largely inconsistent. (Hence the lack of results?)

 

[Konneh]

I think we should talk about Yoshi. Like what makes him a good character? Why is he under represented? What is keeping him from winning tournaments? I am just curious because I keep seeing him rated so high with few results. Only high level or basically any level really is Denti. So any thoughts on this?

Just want to throw in there that we have a ton of Yoshi players here in my region. He has a really good combo game and midrange pressure with Egg Toss. Wins a few smaller locals, too, but to my knowledge has not won a national here in Germany yet. But yes, the same questions are being asked here, too.

In my opinion, his neutral is just very difficult due to the fact that his way to deal with shields can mostly be dealt with on reaction, which makes holding shields really effective against him.

 

[wm1026]

All Yoshi needs is a safe neutral imo, but I guess that'd make him a bit too good? Not going to claim I know Yoshi or anything, but I feel like the only thing holding him back is that can't really play footsies in neutral, so he's largely inconsistent. (Hence the lack of results?)

I actually main Yoshi so I can definetly agree to the subpar neutral game, but I think with his mobility and SHAD shenanigans that, that can't be the only thing holding him back. What I keep finding that I have trouble with is kill set ups. It's hard to kill with Yoshi sometimes even though he has decent kill moves. He just doesn't have any combos into kills. I think a lot of that has to do with his poor grab and throw game. His grab is terribly slow especially his pivot grab, so it is already risky but unlike ZSS grab when he does get the grab he has no real follow ups. So in other words he doesn't have a good way to challenge shields.

 

[Ikes]

How many other D3 mains populate the topic on a frequent basis? Maybe one?

Thought so.

And if you're gonna give me grief for talking about my character in this topic, I suggest you start aiming down your prick at other people that talk about their characters with just as much frequency. Don't call me out for something as inane as making a lighthearted, self-deprecating comment about a character when a lot of other people do the same.

Smooth Criminal

but you talk about it with literally no substance or apparent intent other than "hey guys i think D3 is bad"
it adds nothing to the conversation, there's nothing to talk about when you do this

and the difference between you and others is that you do it constantly

i dont think 5 pages can go by without you chiming in about how bad you think Dedede is

at this point you might as well just put it in your signature, at least there it's less obtrusive and doesn't affect whatever conversation is already at hand

Who, in your opinion, do you guys think the most slept on/underrated characters are? Since customs are slowly becoming common place I believe 2122 Ganondorf and 3132 Mii Gunner are slept on.

2211 Toon Link IMHO

Floating boomerang is incredibly jank and even several seconds after having been thrown can just pop back up out of nowhere, not to mention it's easier to time setups with

Fire arrows are great since they last just around a second and a half and pop your enemy up into the air, you can easily take half the stage by popping two or 3 fire arrows on one side, not to mention they combo into most of his moves including bombs. They also stop projectiles like Luigi's Fireballs entirely, basically any weak projectile with a straight path will clank with the fire arrows.

 

[ぱみゅ]

but you talk about it with literally no substance or apparent intent other than "hey guys i think D3 is bad"
it adds nothing to the conversation, there's nothing to talk about when you do this

and the difference between you and others is that you do it constantly

i dont think 5 pages can go by without you chiming in about how bad you think Dedede is

at this point you might as well just put it in your signature, at least there it's less obtrusive and doesn't affect whatever conversation is already at hand

Because DeDeDe is THAT bad. So is Zelda.

We just want to make sure everyone acknowledges it.

 

[C0rvus]

Yoshi has amazing normals and mobility and a bad grab with no significant follow-ups. He sits in a weird spot where he has very good qualities but he is lacking some of the specific ones that make you a top threat in this game. His neutral is enough to ruin characters with worse neutral but it isn't good enough to deal with the best characters. I mean, I've heard Sheik players say they hate the MU, same with Rosa players. I'm not sure what to think of Yoshi. Like with Shulk, he doesn't have a player repping him at high enough level for us the get a clear indications of his viability/effectiveness.

 

[A2ZOMG]

I think we should talk about Yoshi. Like what makes him a good character? Why is he under represented? What is keeping him from winning tournaments? I am just curious because I keep seeing him rated so high with few results. Only high level or basically any level really is Denti. So any thoughts on this?

Yoshi is super overrated imo.

He has a good negative state and a decent positive state (for damage dealing, pretty bad for confirming KOs). And his neutral is clearly below average (let's put it this way. Literally does not have a single move that beats Mario's B-air directly except for U-smash).

He's a good character if you let him hit you. Not very good when you space really conservatively and never overcommit to anything.

 

[Vipermoon]

ZeRo just said on stream that he went Diddy to not bore the crowd. He said he definitely could have beat Mr. R in the ditto.

 

[RayNoire]

Because DeDeDe is THAT bad. So is Zelda.

We just want to make sure everyone acknowledges it.

Hear, hear. (Can we add Mewtwo to the "so bad it's a meme" list?)

Most underrated character? I'll second Tink. Just a little ball of disjoints and death that one is. Dair on the ledge is insane.

 

[Ikes]

I'm really feeling like Lucas is a defensive/jack of all trades type character. His projectile game is good even down to PK Freeze which finds its uses, PK fire is more or less comparable to an overcharged but laggier Mario Fireball, his brawling game is great but not exemplary, his disjoints are almost all sweetspotted and are very strong but not particularly the best of their class, his smashes are all very powerful but rather slow overall (save Fsmash which is actually fairly good), his tilts are all good and have their own uses, his combo game is great and frankly I'd say among the best but definitely not the very best.

Overall I think Lucas is a contender for the lower portion of High tier, around Villager and Mega Man. He seems like a jack of all trades character but with a much steeper learning curve than the likes of Pit or Mario.



Also I'm personally of the opinion that Wario is top 6, though that might be a stretch
His aerial play is nothing short of phenomenal with his only downside being range, or lack thereof. Almost all of his moves come out fast save smash attacks. His KO power is terrifying, even without Waft. His bike is scary in multiple ways, either as a projectile or simply by getting run the hell over. His mobility is some of the best in the game. Chomp is by far the unchallenged best command grab across the board. He pretty much has all the tools to succeed aside from good range, while his is only above decent. I honestly fail to see any glaring flaws with his toolset.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

but you talk about it with literally no substance or apparent intent other than "hey guys i think D3 is bad"
it adds nothing to the conversation, there's nothing to talk about when you do this

and the difference between you and others is that you do it constantly

i dont think 5 pages can go by without you chiming in about how bad you think Dedede is

at this point you might as well just put it in your signature, at least there it's less obtrusive and doesn't affect whatever conversation is already at hand

Take some points in reading comprehension, bud (or hell, just reading at all). Lot of people have already immortalized my status in this thread for my "dissertations" in various matters concerning the character, like his awful neutral game and the like.

So, no, you're wrong. I do explain myself when it's needed.

Smooth Criminal

 

[BSP]

Shulk with a F3 jab is overdoing it IMO. Most characters with F3 jabs or faster dont have range or a 90% disjointed moveset like Shulk does..

I know as Pac-Man, the MU would be pretty silly if Shulk gets to outrange me in general and outspeed everything i have in CQC minus trampoline. If he gets a F3, give me F2 lol.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Hear, hear. (Can we add Mewtwo to the "so bad it's a meme" list?)

Most underrated character? I'll second Tink. Just a little ball of disjoints and death that one is. Dair on the ledge is insane.

Toon Link's disjoints don't mean much when his damage per hit and raw range is competing with Mario's, and he also doesn't have anything close to Mario's grab and followup game or frame data.

I would put him on the list of clearly overrated characters, frankly. He's only usable because of Bombs. But even with those, he's a mostly terrible character with bad frame data that doesn't do much damage, has mediocre options against juggles and edgeguards, and also can't punish a ledge reset given none of his aerials are good for hitting below him offstage.

He does have good customs though.

 

[Routa]

Wario is good, but he has two big flaws: lack of reliable KO moves and kinda meh grab follow ups (D-throw to Bike might be his best grab combo so...). Also he is floaty and heavy which is good and a bad thing. He is good but not top tier (= top 5).

 

[Pazx]

"top tier" either has 2 characters (take a guess!) if you take it literally or 15ish characters in it for me because those are where the more obvious gaps between how good two characters are to me fall. Brawl's "top tier" characters ranged from SS to A- so I think it's fair to say we'll be going with the latter and (very probably) including Wario in the top tier, even if he isn't top 5.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Wario is good, but he has two big flaws: lack of reliable KO moves and kinda meh grab follow ups (D-throw to Bike might be his best grab combo so...). Also he is floaty and heavy which is good and a bad thing. He is good but not top tier (= top 5).

Wario doesn't lack reliable KO moves, in fact killing is hardly an issue for him, between Waft, FThrow, Bike set ups and safe and decently fast kill moves in FTilt and Bair. His issues are his range and bad damage output. (Bad follow ups after throws contribute.)

As of now, I have him top 10 personally, but there's competition.

 

[thegrovylekid]

Hey, just throwing this out there, but do Ryu and Ganondorf's MUs get any worse on Dream Land when both of these character's full hops don't reach the bottom platform?

Sorry if this is the wrong place to put this.

 

[PK Gaming]

Wario is good, but he has two big flaws: lack of reliable KO moves and kinda meh grab follow ups (D-throw to Bike might be his best grab combo so...). Also he is floaty and heavy which is good and a bad thing. He is good but not top tier (= top 5).

How can you say the former when he has THE KO move option?

 

[Pazx]

Hey, just throwing this out there, but do Ryu and Ganondorf's MUs get any worse on Dream Land when both of these character's full hops don't reach the bottom platform?

Sorry if this is the wrong place to put this.

I'd imagine both characters do marginally worse (in neutral) on this stage in comparison to Battlefield but they both like killing off the top (DL has a lowish ceiling) and have okay tools to cover the platform anyway. Ganon's uair is great on BF and is probably just as great on DL64. It's more noticable with Little Mac as he can't reach the platform without a double jump and he also really really struggles to hit people on the platform.

 

[Routa]

Yes Wario has THE KO move, but killing with it ain't easy (gotta read foe like a book). Ofc there are set ups, but still. His Bair is good but it has kinda sucky endlag. He has alot of kill moves BUT... You still see Wario rarely killing below 160% (if we don't count Fart Nuke and gimping). His KO moves have kinda meh end lag which means you gotta wear your reading glasses.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Yes Wario has THE KO move, but killing with it ain't easy (gotta read foe like a book). Ofc there are set ups, but still. His Bair is good but it has kinda sucky endlag. He has alot of kill moves BUT... You still see Wario rarely killing below 160% (if we don't count Fart Nuke and gimping). His KO moves have kinda meh end lag which means you gotta wear your reading glasses.

"But still" what? It has set ups, what more do you need? Not to mention it's fast enough to use as a punish. BAir auto cancels, and FTilt has low lag. Outside of those, you have USmash which while laggy has invincibility frames so it's a good anti air. He's also one of the very few characters with a killing fthrow which is a pretty big thing.

Don't forget, Wario can abuse rage with his survivability. It's the big reason why his FThrow is really dangerous.

 

[Ikes]

Wario's fthrow is so satisfying to do, too

Like for the character that's arguably more disrespectful than Ganon and easily the biggest troll on the character select screen, having a way to kill out of a grab facing forwards is just icing on the cake. The cake being Waft, Chomp, and Bair.

 

[Routa]

Waft set up:
First get off the bike
Now grab it
Throw at enemy or throw it up
Move towards the thrown bike
Waft

You can get easily interrupted at any point and interrupting this set up is very easy. Also you loose this set up if you use Speedy Bike.

Ftilt is good yes but still average at best. U smash indeed is good due to invisibility frames, but the lag still hurts it. Yeah his F-throw is godlike and B-throw has its uses, but other that thous his grab game sucks.

 

[Konneh]

Waft set up:
First get off the bike
Now grab it
Throw at enemy or throw it up
Move towards the thrown bike
Waft

You can get easily interrupted at any point and interrupting this set up is very easy. Also you loose this set up if you use Speedy Bike.

Ftilt is good yes but still average at best. U smash indeed is good due to invisibility frames, but the lag still hurts it. Yeah his F-throw is godlike and B-throw has its uses, but other that thous his grab game sucks.

Is that really the only setup you have, using Waft? I remember seeing Abadango fish for falling up airs and the commentators saying he's doing so to combo into Waft. What about using it while Edge Guarding? Forcing your opponent to airdodge and Wafting him upon landing? I mean, you have to remember that the agreed upon best character in the game also doesn't just throw out an fsmash to kill, let alone the other members of the cast. I don't think it's that unreasonable to require a read for an early kill and still call yourself one of the top characters in the game.

 

[Ikes]

I want the top tiers to get nerfed so the true smash king can stand on his pedestal as NUMBAH WAN

wario, we love you

 

[Routa]

Is that really the only setup you have, using Waft? I remember seeing Abadango fish for falling up airs and the commentators saying he's doing so to combo into Waft. What about using it while Edge Guarding? Forcing your opponent to airdodge and Wafting him upon landing? I mean, you have to remember that the agreed upon best character in the game also doesn't just throw out an fsmash to kill, let alone the other members of the cast. I don't think it's that unreasonable to require a read for an early kill and still call yourself one of the top characters in the game.

Oh I'm not saying that Wario ain't good or great, but I think he is just outside top 10. Well yes Waft is godly edgeguarding tool, but it cannot be counted as a set up. There aren't really many set ups for Wafts, but who needs set up if you can get a read (not even a hard read). Also Quick Waft is best Waft for edgeguarding. Yeah early kill isn't a must (look at Sheik), but most of the top tier characters do can kill early.

But I have to say Wario is very balanced. I mean if you ask me he does not need any buffs or nerfs.

 

[TriTails]

(let's put it this way. Literally does not have a single move that beats Mario's B-air directly except for U-smash).

Um, his own B-air?

I don't get the whole 'x move beats y move' thing. What do you mean by 'beating'? Being able to do the attack faster so you can attack before your opponent? Having more range (Disjointed, most likely) so you can hit them where they can't do the same to you? Or literally clashes in the air but with your own attack hitting while their's don't?

His grab is terribly slow especially his pivot grab

Wot?

Yoshi's pivot grab literally is the fastest form of his grabs.

Yoshi's grabs by speed:
1. Pivot grab
2. Dash grab
3. Standing grab

Waft set up:
First get off the bike
Now grab it
Throw at enemy or throw it up
Move towards the thrown bike
Waft

How2Waft:
Knock them off-stage
Now wait for your opponent to come close
Jump when they have no other choice other than to Up-B
In the middle of their recovery moves, Waft
Profit

 

[A2ZOMG]

Wario's fthrow is so satisfying to do, too

Like for the character that's arguably more disrespectful than Ganon and easily the biggest troll on the character select screen, having a way to kill out of a grab facing forwards is just icing on the cake. The cake being Waft, Chomp, and Bair.

Define "disrespectful".

Ganon's inherent toolset is extremely honest and rewards good fundamentals without being extremely janky and non-intuitive to play against. I find it relatively confusing that people associate him with being disrespectful.

Um, his own B-air?

I don't get the whole 'x move beats y move' thing. What do you mean by 'beating'? Being able to do the attack faster so you can attack before your opponent? Having more range (Disjointed, most likely) so you can hit them where they can't do the same to you? Or literally clashes in the air but with your own attack hitting while their's don't?

Yoshi and Mario do B-airs at the same time. Mario does 10%. Yoshi either does nothing or if he's REALLY lucky, he trades and does 2%.

Yoshi's hitboxes have horrible priority relative to his hurtboxes. If he's overlapping hitboxes with another character that's actually properly playing footsies, he will USUALLY lose the exchange. Doesn't help that his B-air is multihit, which kills its utility in footsies in spite of its OKish range and frame data.

His one not completely terrible spacing tool in footises is F-air, and that move is frame 16. So yeah...as I was saying, he generally does not have a single move that beats Mario's B-air directly. If Mario is not spacing terribly and they're attacking each other at about the same time, Yoshi is barely doing anything to Mario because his spacing tools are just that awful. He's legitimately bad at playing neutral as long as you refuse to approach unsafely.

 

[TriTails]

Define "disrespectful".

Ganon's inherent toolset is extremely honest and rewards good fundamentals without being extremely janky and non-intuitive to play against. I find it relatively confusing that people associate him with being disrespectful.

I think he just meant that some of Ganon's moves just kinda disrespecting other people. Sparta Kick is like 'You're not worth my time. Get out of my face' or D-air being like 'Get the **** down!'. Warlock Punch is like 'Quit this game. If you are worthless enough to get hit by this, then you're not on my level' and aerial Wizard Foot spike basically just say 'FOR THE ****ING GLORY!'.

There are even videos on Ganon disrespecting other people. And most of those are basically people getting kicked around by his F-tilt, getting spike'd by D-air, getting Warlock Punch'd, etc, so I think that's what he meant.