Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[wm1026]

Um has his pivot grab been changed? Because I am pretty sure the end lag on that thing is pretty bad. Like I said I could be wrong but I really don't think I am on this one.
Even if it technically is his fastest form of his grab, it still doesn't fix the problem. He still has terrible throws and his grab is still a risky tether.

 

[TriTails]

Um has his pivot grab been changed? Because I am pretty sure the end lag on that thing is pretty bad. Like I said I could be wrong but I really don't think I am on this one.
Even if it technically is his fastest form of his grab, it still doesn't fix the problem. He still has terrible throws and his grab is still a risky tether.

Can we really call Yoshi's grab a tether? Aside from the startup, end lag, and range it doesn't say much on being a tether. You can't tether recovery with it and you don't have a Z-air.

Come to think of it. How good would Yoshi be if he had a Z-air?

 

[Konneh]

Define "disrespectful".

Ganon's inherent toolset is extremely honest and rewards good fundamentals without being extremely janky and non-intuitive to play against. I find it relatively confusing that people associate him with being disrespectful.

This probably has a lot to do with Ganon being one of the, if not the only primary sandbagging character in Melee. Also because it feels so good to destroy your opponent as Ganon!
But I think the same definition of the word "Disrespect" does not apply to Wario, who seems to just have funky and funny moves.

 

[adom4]

I think he just meant that some of Ganon's moves just kinda disrespecting other people. Sparta Kick is like 'You're not worth my time. Get out of my face' or D-air being like 'Get the **** down!'. Warlock Punch is like 'Quit this game. If you are worthless enough to get hit by this, then you're not on my level' and aerial Wizard Foot spike basically just say 'FOR THE ****ING GLORY!'.

There are even videos on Ganon disrespecting other people. And most of those are basically people getting kicked around by his F-tilt, getting spike'd by D-air, getting Warlock Punch'd, etc, so I think that's what he meant.

Or the "**** your 120% worth of work" Ganoncide.

 

[wm1026]

Can we really call Yoshi's grab a tether? Aside from the startup, end lag, and range it doesn't say much on being a tether. You can't tether recovery with it and you don't have a Z-air.

Come to think of it. How good would Yoshi be if he had a Z-air?

I don't think it really matters what you call it because it's still the same problem. I guess it is a lot like Olimars in that you cant use it to tether grab the ledge (just slower with less reward). On the topic of if Yoshi had a Z-air, I think that would be great for Yoshi honestly. It would give him a way to space without using egg toss (which is slow) or fair (which puts his hurt box out there with the hit box) so in other words a character with great mobility just got a quick disjointed way to space. Who does that sound like?

 

[Mr. Johan]

Talking about Waft setups, Speeding Bike leads straight into it as low as 40%. And Wario WILL hit with Speeding Bike sooner or later.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Wario is good, but he has two big flaws: lack of reliable KO moves and kinda meh grab follow ups (D-throw to Bike might be his best grab combo so...). Also he is floaty and heavy which is good and a bad thing. He is good but not top tier (= top 5).

This. Whenever I tell people I have a hard time KO'ing with Wario they think I'm crazy but it's true. Fsmash is laggy as hell and lost it's armor from Brawl, Dsmash is probably his riskiest move, Usmash is slow and the horizontal range is lackluster, Bair is decent but is difficult to use at a safe height without suffering landing lag (and you can't set it up), the Wheelie bike slam is arguably one of the most predictable in the game once you start it, Dair is good but really only offstage, which basically leaves Ftilt and Waft as the only relatively safe options.
EDIT: forgot about Fthrow on the ledge.

Um, his own B-air?

I don't get the whole 'x move beats y move' thing. What do you mean by 'beating'? Being able to do the attack faster so you can attack before your opponent? Having more range (Disjointed, most likely) so you can hit them where they can't do the same to you? Or literally clashes in the air but with your own attack hitting while their's don't?


Wot?

Yoshi's pivot grab literally is the fastest form of his grabs.

Yoshi's grabs by speed:
1. Pivot grab
2. Dash grab
3. Standing grab


How2Waft:
Knock them off-stage
Now wait for your opponent to come close
Jump when they have no other choice other than to Up-B
In the middle of their recovery moves, Waft
Profit

You forgot about Waft having charge time and safe recoveries existing. Many recoveries have invincibility frames or super armor like Mario and Ike, others have teleporting, and others are Sheik. This is matchup specific. And not everyone will recover low with their Up B, a la Yoshi. If edgeguarding with Waft were that simple then he would probably beat a lot of characters he didn't before.

 

[Nocally]

Can we really call Yoshi's grab a tether? Aside from the startup, end lag, and range it doesn't say much on being a tether. You can't tether recovery with it and you don't have a Z-air.

Come to think of it. How good would Yoshi be if he had a Z-air?

Egg lay is kind of a z-air, and one of his customs make his tongue to a z-air. This is the closest Yoshi get´s to a true z-air.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Ganondorf is disrespectful because his attacks are so godlike painful when they hit you. Down Air has to be the meanest, most powerful and disrespectful meteor smash in the game. But it feels so good to land it. The same with his Forward Tilt. It kicks you out like you're an insignificant ball of soccer. And don't even let me talk about Up Tilt. The lag in the attack it's just to show how disrespectful the attack is. It's just such a laggy move that can be avoided by interrumping it, and you still get killed by it. Also the ganoncide is always hilarious.

Question: What would happen if every single character got a new custom? Like Zelda being able to transform into Sheik but only for a few seconds, or Sonic having his Sonic Wave (in other words, a projectile). Or Link being able to use his Gauntlets from Ocarine of Time and beat the **** ouf of everyone? What are you suggestions for a new custom and how would that custom change the meta?

 

[outfoxd]

Ganondorf is disrespectful because his attacks are so godlike painful when they hit you. Down Air has to be the meanest, most powerful and disrespectful meteor smash in the game. But it feels so good to land it. The same with his Forward Tilt. It kicks you out like you're an insignificant ball of soccer. And don't even let me talk about Up Tilt. The lag in the attack it's just to show how disrespectful the attack is. It's just such a laggy move that can be avoided by interrumping it, and you still get killed by it. Also the ganoncide is always hilarious.

Question: What would happen if every single character got a new custom? Like Zelda being able to transform into Sheik but only for a few seconds, or Sonic having his Sonic Wave (in other words, a projectile). Or Link being able to use his Gauntlets from Ocarine of Time and beat the **** ouf of everyone? What are you suggestions for a new custom and how would that custom change the meta?

Give DH a killing J9 style gunman, randomly.

 

[Spinosaurus]

This. Whenever I tell people I have a hard time KO'ing with Wario they think I'm crazy but it's true. Fsmash is laggy as hell and lost it's armor from Brawl, Dsmash is probably his riskiest move, Usmash is slow and the horizontal range is lackluster, Bair is decent but is difficult to use at a safe height without suffering landing lag (and you can't set it up), the Wheelie bike slam is arguably one of the most predictable in the game once you start it, Dair is good but really only offstage, which basically leaves Ftilt and Waft as the only relatively safe options.
EDIT: forgot about Fthrow on the ledge.

You forgot about Waft having charge time and safe recoveries existing. Many recoveries have invincibility frames or super armor like Mario and Ike, others have teleporting, and others are Sheik. This is matchup specific. And not everyone will recover low with their Up B, a la Yoshi. If edgeguarding with Waft were that simple then he would probably beat a lot of characters he didn't before.

DSmash is his fastest and strongest punish move, and you can combo a turnaround dtilt into it. There's no reason to ever use it in a situation where they can punish the lag. None. BAir autocancel is pretty generous, and there are set ups. Don't count out off stage kills when Wario has an easy time getting you there.

And regardless of that, the moment they're off stage, Wario can set up a ledge crash with bike.

UAir, UTilt, Wheelie pop (combos from a regular bike hit) and FAir (off stage) can kill too at pretty high percents with rage but they're there should the situation ever calls for them. I don't know what you're doing if you're having trouble killing with Wario, waft or not. His individual kill options might not be the best, but he has something for every situation. That's not a character that struggles to kill to me. (Do you see tournament Warios fishing for kills all the time?)

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Question: What would happen if every single character got a new custom? Like Zelda being able to transform into Sheik but only for a few seconds, or Sonic having his Sonic Wave (in other words, a projectile). Or Link being able to use his Gauntlets from Ocarine of Time and beat the **** ouf of everyone? What are you suggestions for a new custom and how would that custom change the meta?

This isn't the thread for that

 

[hypersonicJD]

Alright then u.u

Then how about we discuss about Jigglypuff's Match-ups?

 

[Gunla]

Alright then u.u

Then how about we discuss about Jigglypuff's Match-ups?

Greninja VS Jigglypuff (currently in rotation starting today on our board) isn't pleasant for Jiggs from what I've seen/played. Here's my summary from the OP:

A lack of options against Greninja's primary kill moves and juggling, a worse range and the lack of a consistent edgeguard make this a more difficult match for Jigglypuff.

Greninja wants the opponent in the air (mostly for Uair juggles and Fair/Bair), and Jigglypuff wants to be in the air. In addition, Greninja can outspeed the puff on the ground. While we may not be able to use HP against Jiggs, Bair acts as a good alternative. There's a reason why it's the most extreme matchup rating on our board.

 

[FullMoon]

There's really not much going in Jigglypuff's favor against Greninja really. Greninja is faster (except in Air Speed), has more range, is heavier, has a very hard to gimp recovery, kills earlier and she's frequently zipping around at Up-Smash range. The most threatening thing about Jigglypuff in this MU is Rest and that's it but at least Rest does lead to early kills if we give her an opening so it's a significant threat.

It's easily Greninja's best MU in the game.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Really nice discussion here. How's vs ? I think it's pretty even or Kirby has a slight advantage. Kirby's combos are really good on Jiggly and can kill her pretty easily. But I don't know what Jiggly can do to Kirby.

 

[DanGR]

There's really not much going in Jigglypuff's favor against Greninja really. Greninja is faster (except in Air Speed), has more range, is heavier, has a very hard to gimp recovery, kills earlier and she's frequently zipping around at Up-Smash range. The most threatening thing about Jigglypuff in this MU is Rest and that's it but at least Rest does lead to early kills if we give her an opening so it's a significant threat.

It's easily Greninja's best MU in the game.

I'm not doubting Greninja does well against Jiggs, but most of those advantages are advantages almost everyone has against her. She's slow as molasses on the ground, has little range, is the lightest character in the game, and will almost always have an excellent recovery against any character. These are general weaknesses/strengths, not specific against Greninja.

What's most important against Jiggs is having good options against her aerial pressure game (safe, spacing, disjointed moves, for example), and having the ability to run away when under shield pressure and re-space yourself. Anything that forces aerial trades (e.g. sex kicks) is particularly good against her too, since her weight makes any kind of even trades poor for her.

 

[adom4]

Alright then u.u

Then how about we discuss about Jigglypuff's Match-ups?

Jigglypuff would destroy Ganondorf if it wasn't for the fact that she dies in like 3-4 hits, the matchup is incredibly volatile & i think it's dead even.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Really nice discussion here. How's vs ? I think it's pretty even or Kirby has a slight advantage. Kirby's combos are really good on Jiggly and can kill her pretty easily. But I don't know what Jiggly can do to Kirby.

This match-up is hell for Kirby. Because Kirby has no disjoints and Jigglypuff is rocking insane priority, he can't ever land a hit without it trading. He can barely combo her, even with customs, because she's so light. Jigglypuff edgeguards Kirby really hard and can easily wall him out with her aerials, too. He can't really approach. Neutral is disgusting against her. Kirby's generally relying on waiting and grabbing to do anything, which doesn't get him far in this MU.

The only good things about this MU is Kirby's D-Air for edgeguarding and Jigglypuff dying relatively soon to Smash attacks. Kirby can't set-up into any kills against her, sadly.

 

[C0rvus]

Figured I would weigh in on Puff since I played her for a little while. She has a few horrid MUs like against Sonic who she can never hope to catch up to. Sheik seems not awful, she can crouch under needles and play very patiently. There still isn't much you can do to approach though, so you have to get an early lead and force her too approach or it's very hard to come back against a campy or patient player. Puff got shafted by the mechanical changes in this game. Ledge changes make it much harder for her to gimp/edge guard, which was her calling card in Melee at least. Rage pretty much only hurts her, since she's made of paper she rarely gets to abuse rage, meanwhile if she cannot secure early kills she is in even bigger danger of dying early herself. At least Rest kills at somewhat acceptable percents.

 

[Project Quarantine]

Yes Wario has THE KO move, but killing with it ain't easy (gotta read foe like a book). Ofc there are set ups, but still. His Bair is good but it has kinda sucky endlag. He has alot of kill moves BUT... You still see Wario rarely killing below 160% (if we don't count Fart Nuke and gimping). His KO moves have kinda meh end lag which means you gotta wear your reading glasses.

Well, I guess you would rarely ser wario killing below 160% if the wario player decided not to do the following:

1. [Onstage] Edgeguarding/Stage control (arguably the best in the game with bike throw, aerials and tilts)

2. Changing playstyle to net a kill. Just like most characters can't just space around and camp to get a kill, wario has to go for a read, punish, or commit to a grab.

Then again, I wouldn't say "if we don't count fart nuke and gimping," because that is ~60% of his kills bar characters with free recoveries.

160% stocks usually means your opponent has significantly outplayed wario, or wario flubbed which, in theory, is uncommon.

 

[Thinkaman]

Commenting on old posts as I catch up:

My personal opinion

Default


Customs


I feel like its her community that holds her back most. They don't have that much faith in her which is extremely unhealthy for advancing a meta. Yes they are helping but if they were more optimistic, it would be much better.

What kind of bizzaro hell is this, where DHD and Marth are not only worse with customs, but worse than Zelda?

EVO Top 32 - Results and Characters

Please discuss characters rather than EVO itself here.

Spoiler

Results with Characters
1st. ZeRo /
2nd. Mr R
3rd. Nairo
4th. Abadango //
5th. Dabuz /
5th. Ally /
7th. ESAM
7th. FOW
9th. Larry Lurr /
9th. Rain
9th. SS
9th. Static Manny
13th. False (maybe )
13th. DaPuffster
13th. Regi
13th. Mocha
17th. 8bitman
17th. John Numbers
17th. Salem/Tyrant (lol double DQ)
17th. MJG
17th. Angel Cortez
17th. Bloodcross /
17th. CaptAwesum
25th. Trevonte /
25th. Shaky
25th. Salem/Tyrant (both DQ'd)
25th. Mr. Con Con
25th. Falln
25th. Vinnie
25th. Christian Rendon (i think?)
25th. Tweek

x8
x3
x2
x1

something something DK something something Luigi something something Falcon something something Yoshi something something Pit something something Mega Man

Stuff worth talking about in the aftermath of Evo and CEO [and even Apex 15 to some extent]
* The increasingly obvious gap in national level results between Sheik, ZSS and Rosalina on the one hand and the rest of the cast on the other hand

The gap between Sheik and ZSS/Rosa is like, twice as big as the gap between them and other high tiers. (Going by results)

I hope people realize that without customs, WiiFit is still usable. Look at JohnNumbers. He only used one custom, and he didn't even abuse it much.

I am starting to respect default Header (and thus default WFT) more in certain matchups, but regardless: That "one custom" is crucial to WFT's performance.

Dabuz for sure, does not like the custom WFT mu and has opted for Olimar everytime he faced one on stream.

Real talk: top players who are consistently competing for serious money will always push for whatever will make the game less sophisticated and take less effort to ensure consistent results.

It's exactly like how taxi drivers will always oppose ride-sharing, and how unions will always oppose all forms of non-union labor--by any means permitted.

It's a sad thing, but the best strategy against WiiFit genuinely is time out.
And it's not the opponent's fault at all, it's wii fit.
The character's entire meta is punishing you attempting to punish her spamming dodges in front of your face when you're close and being as happy as rain if you're not within mid range. She will never approach you or anyone. If you let her, she's passively gaining health and suddenly gaining sub 100% kill power. If she gets hit off stage or above a character's full hop above the ground she's getting a free Sun Salutation charge and will spend the next 30 seconds as invulnerable against 90% of the cast.

Ever wondered why Samus can't charge her B in the air (beyond replicating original game mechanics)?
She's honestly worse than Brawl Wario to fight. She's a distinctively disgusting play style and game plan and you should be happy she doesn't appear in your scene.
Her cancel window for her two charges is way too low to be honest... #SaltyShaya, but the character has a good forward tilt, good damage dealing combos and then is campier/less counter play to her lame than Custom Villager.
Like, if charizard reads a needle charge from sheik he can dragon rush that and Sheik can struggle to shield in time. Wii Fit can start a charge and cancel it 2 times in the same window. It honestly doesn't make sense.

Customs on/off I don't think she's bottom 10. But she's definitely the most frustrating character out of high tier. She isn't fun to play against at all. I look forward to many "lame" match ups in all smash games (although ICs in Brawl eventually broke the camel's back), but I would take Hammer Dash Sonics, plankager and cyclone kong over competent Wii Fit. Everyone of the aforementioned have disadvantaged states.... WiiFit just doesn't play Smash Bros and forces a game of PvE "5-10 frame vulnerability windows with directional air dodges" or take 30% for trying... so... why try? There's absolutely no reason whatsoever for a character to fight wiifit because she just is never ever going to be playing the same game as you are.

Anyway, not to take away from Wave (or any wiifit), he's likely the best player in our country and the character isn't easy by any means either. But I do wish I was always in a situation of gaining pressure by passive actions through muscle memory and then allowing all my focus to be reacting to feeble mid-range advances.

I disagree heavily with a lot of this, emphasized by a personal commitment to Weighted Header. I think WFT is a really well-designed character, and one of my favorite opponents to play against.

Then again, I also think the same thing against Falcon and Villager? (Sonic, meanwhile, can die in a fire, and ICs can stay dead.)

so my brother thinks that there's no reason not to play sheik or rosalina and that the meta is too centralized on the short lost of very top tiers and that sheik is meta knight levels of broken and I dont know what to think about this. I guess i just dont know enough to form a definite opinion. Is he right? I don't know.

Your brother needs to play more video games.

Or at least watch EVO.

Who would have thought, in a game where the #1 objective is to KO your opponents which you do by damaging them, that a character who does high damage and has a slew of kill moves, would be bad? He has the typical heavy-hitter disadvantage of being a big target, but he also has a lot of things that heavy hitters never do in an amazing recovery, great edgeguarding options, reflector, high power projectile and kill throws. It balances out.

I agree that Mewtwo is underwhelming, but way too often people talk about his bad points without understanding that he his like a truck, its like no one has ever seen just how much damage his attacks do and that his uthrow is stronger than Ness' bthrow. Hes going to have weaknesses to compensate for that I just wish people got it through their head that he is a heavy hitter, not just some lightweight.

And I'm going to repeat it for the people that never read. Mewtwos uthrow kills earlier than Ness' bthrow at equal rage.

I still regard Mewtwo as a slightly worse Ganondorf. Even people who think Ganon is bad at least give him credit for "two solid reads = a stock." But no one seems to realize that they owe Mewtwo, for all his own flaws, the same respect.

Default Wii Fit seems good as a support with her offstage game, charge shot and heing able to be covered when she needs deep breathing room.

Jumbo Hoops is a top-tier teams move. "Here, let me control all the space and apply S-rank shield pressure."

Villager and Pac-Man are pretty good support characters in doubles.

Villager is the best non-G&W character in teams, easily. There's no need to quantify it.

is one of the most underatted doubles partners.

This!

Special shoutouts to the u-throw hitbox.

At least we can all agree D3 is bad without much convincing, right?

Smooth Criminal

Hey man, two people counterpicked my Little Mac with Dedede at EVO!

It didn't go well for either.

 

[|RK|]

I keep hearing that customs were banned, but see no post/news.

 

[Luco]

At least we can all agree D3 is bad without much convincing, right?

Smooth Criminal

I dunno man, I was at a tournament yesterday and there were some people there being like "I think Dedede has some real potential to be good." and I had to be like "Well the thing is..."

The message needs to be spread more, it seems!

But yeah, yesterday reminded me how good Sonic is. How many characters consider him their worst MU in the game? I feel like there's more than a few.

Actually that's a funny discussion to have - which characters tend to be at the top of characters' 'worst MU' lists? Which top tier characters is probably the least offensive in this regard?

I've never heard any character board say that is their worst MU for instance (which surprised me), but I have heard a few character boards say etc.

 

[adom4]

I dunno man, I was at a tournament yesterday and there were some people there being like "I think Dedede has some real potential to be good." and I had to be like "Well the thing is..."

The message needs to be spread more, it seems!

But yeah, yesterday reminded me how good Sonic is. How many characters consider him their worst MU in the game? I feel like there's more than a few.

Actually that's a funny discussion to have - which characters tend to be at the top of characters' 'worst MU' lists? Which top tier characters is probably the least offensive in this regard?

I've never heard any character board say that is their worst MU for instance (which surprised me), but I have heard a few character boards say etc.

Personally i think he's Ganon's worst matchup besides Sheik, he feels so safe againat Ganon.

st: 19707311, member: 182834"]I dunno man, I was at a tournament yesterday and there were some people there being like "I think Dedede has some real potential to be good." and I had to be like "Well the thing is..."

The message needs to be spread more, it seems!

But yeah, yesterday reminded me how good Sonic is. How many characters consider him their worst MU in the game? I feel like there's more than a few.

Actually that's a funny discussion to have - which characters tend to be at the top of characters' 'worst MU' lists? Which top tier characters is probably the least offensive in this regard?

I've never heard any character board say that is their worst MU for instance (which surprised me), but I have heard a few character boards say etc.[/quote]
Personally i thi

 

[Thinkaman]

Post EVO thoughts, limited to characters I play: (still no main, sry)

First, major shoutouts to @kingkaruso, @Jaxas & crew, @ Amazing Ampharos , and @Junglechief for giving me limited but absolutely crucial warm-up matches prior to the event. I didn't play a single one of you guys' characters in the initial pools, but I am 90% sure I would have drowned hard in pools (including losing my first match, which was difficult/close) if I had even the slightest bit less practice. Going to EVO after not having played for 2 months was really suboptimal, but you guys empowered me to make the most of it and break into the top 128 regardless.

is the character I actually played the most at EVO, at least in-bracket. As I mentioned before, for some reason two different people cp'd DDD against me? I didn't get it; of all the characters I play I'd pick Mac to fight Dedede given the choice! (Sure enough, I took like 30% total in those matches) I lost to GimR via two brutal throw combos (d-throw -> u-tilt -> bair _> ...), thanks to knowing nothing aobut G&W; I labbed it up immediately afterwords and verified that Mac can indeed up-b out of both initial gaps. If I fought a G&W again, I'd probably prefer Mac. I decided to play Mac in quarterfinals against Ish's Fox, despite previously thinking this was a bad matchup. (@ Amazing Ampharos 's encouragement to do so pushed me over the edge.) I played a radically different Mac, that was way less focused on hard reads and up-Bs--minimizing Fox's disproportionate punish power--and it worked out well.

continues to be a good character with a simple gameplan. Yes, he loses to Rosa, even if the Fow/Dabuz matches were clearly a WORST CASE scenario. But he's still clearly a dominant metagame force.

I only played once, in a ditto. I increasingly find myself preferring LM in most matchups I'd prefer Ganon in. Maybe if I encountered a Greninja or something it'd be different.

I only played against falln's Rosa. I lost (hard), but it was still the best choice. I also played a ton of WFT in teams friendlies; she works well on a variety of teams.

and I barely touched, even in friendlies.

though, I played in friendlies a lot. A whole lot. And I was doing... pretty great, to the point that I am strongly considering maining Duck Hunt. Of note: Rosalina and Villager both actually has significant issues with ZZS, instead of, you know, beating Duck Hunt at least 8:2. This was one of the things holding me back from the character before. Beyond that, my Duck Hunt was consistently doing very well against everyone I played friendlies with, nontrivially better than my other characters in most matchups.


So yeah:

1. Practice and for EVO
2. Win with //
3. Lose with
4. Decide to main

Makes sense to me.

I've never heard any character board say that is their worst MU for instance (which surprised me), but I have heard a few character boards say etc.

I'd believe . I go Ness against every ROB I see, unconditionally.

 

[outfoxd]

Post EVO thoughts, limited to characters I play: (still no main, sry)

First, major shoutouts to @kingkaruso, @Jaxas & crew, @ Amazing Ampharos , and @Junglechief for giving me limited but absolutely crucial warm-up matches prior to the event. I didn't play a single one of you guys' characters in the initial pools, but I am 90% sure I would have drowned hard in pools (including losing my first match, which was difficult/close) if I had even the slightest bit less practice. Going to EVO after not having played for 2 months was really suboptimal, but you guys empowered me to make the most of it and break into the top 128 regardless.

is the character I actually played the most at EVO, at least in-bracket. As I mentioned before, for some reason two different people cp'd DDD against me? I didn't get it; of all the characters I play I'd pick Mac to fight Dedede given the choice! (Sure enough, I took like 30% total in those matches) I lost to GimR via two brutal throw combos (d-throw -> u-tilt -> bair _> ...), thanks to knowing nothing aobut G&W; I labbed it up immediately afterwords and verified that Mac can indeed up-b out of both initial gaps. If I fought a G&W again, I'd probably prefer Mac. I decided to play Mac in quarterfinals against Ish's Fox, despite previously thinking this was a bad matchup. (@ Amazing Ampharos 's encouragement to do so pushed me over the edge.) I played a radically different Mac, that was way less focused on hard reads and up-Bs--minimizing Fox's disproportionate punish power--and it worked out well.

continues to be a good character with a simple gameplan. Yes, he loses to Rosa, even if the Fow/Dabuz matches were clearly a WORST CASE scenario. But he's still clearly a dominant metagame force.

I only played once, in a ditto. I increasingly find myself preferring LM in most matchups I'd prefer Ganon in. Maybe if I encountered a Greninja or something it'd be different.

I only played against falln's Rosa. I lost (hard), but it was still the best choice. I also played a ton of WFT in teams friendlies; she works well on a variety of teams.

and I barely touched, even in friendlies.

though, I played in friendlies a lot. A whole lot. And I was doing... pretty great, to the point that I am strongly considering maining Duck Hunt. Of note: Rosalina and Villager both actually has significant issues with ZZS, instead of, you know, beating Duck Hunt at least 8:2. This was one of the things holding me back from the character before. Beyond that, my Duck Hunt was consistently doing very well against everyone I played friendlies with, nontrivially better than my other characters in most matchups.


So yeah:

1. Practice and for EVO
2. Win with //
3. Lose with
4. Decide to main

Makes sense to me.



I'd believe . I go Ness against every ROB I see, unconditionally.

We will welcome you to Duck Hunt but be ready for heartbreak.

Playing a character with low KO power and almost no KO setups in a game full of them is aggravating.

 

[Thinkaman]

We will welcome you to Duck Hunt but be ready for heartbreak.

Playing a character with low KO power and almost no KO setups in a game full of them is aggravating.

Not gonna lie, I was getting a non-trivial percentage of my KOs with u-throw.

"I didn't think u-throw was a remotely early KO option!"

Well, you're certainly not wrong.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm not doubting Greninja does well against Jiggs, but most of those advantages are advantages almost everyone has against her. She's slow as molasses on the ground, has little range, is the lightest character in the game, and will almost always have an excellent recovery against any character. These are general weaknesses/strengths, not specific against Greninja.

What's most important against Jiggs is having good options against her aerial pressure game (safe, spacing, disjointed moves, for example), and having the ability to run away when under shield pressure and re-space yourself. Anything that forces aerial trades (e.g. sex kicks) is particularly good against her too, since her weight makes any kind of even trades poor for her.

And Greninja has those.

I just don't see anything Jiggs has over Greninja other than multiple jumps, better airspeed and Rest.

 

[bc1910]

I'm not doubting Greninja does well against Jiggs, but most of those advantages are advantages almost everyone has against her. She's slow as molasses on the ground, has little range, is the lightest character in the game, and will almost always have an excellent recovery against any character. These are general weaknesses/strengths, not specific against Greninja.

What's most important against Jiggs is having good options against her aerial pressure game (safe, spacing, disjointed moves, for example), and having the ability to run away when under shield pressure and re-space yourself. Anything that forces aerial trades (e.g. sex kicks) is particularly good against her too, since her weight makes any kind of even trades poor for her.

This, to an extent. Greninja's advantages against her are generally not specific to him (although his Up Smash operating in the zone it does and killing her so early IS a big advantage that other characters don't have). Her MUs across the board aren't great. His strong advantage against her isn't unusual but Usmash does kind of tip it over the edge.

FWIW I think there are MUs Greninja wins more convincingly than the Jiggs MU and there are other, more important MUs he wins or goes even in where most characters don't.

 

[Thinkaman]

As a Brawl Jiggs main who has limited experience with Smash 4 Jiggs at a competitive level, the thought that immediately comes to mind from a Jigg's matchup mentality is "Wow, I would be utterly terrified of Greninja u-smash." I can see Greninja as a specifically bad matchup for her.

Edit: Also, Smash 4's emphasis on vertical kills does her no favors in general.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Can we talk about Luigi? For all his pomp and vigour, I've yet to see him make waves at high-level events.

I have a friend who's getting into and is currently studying competitive Luigi. He seems convinced that, except for a few noteworthy scenarios in which Luigi is the dominant force of the match (read: any time he's within grab range), the character really struggles in a wider metagame context.

I get that Luigi has some great tools and can really put the pressure on if he gets the chance to, but is that really the crux of his gameplan - if he gets the chance to? I just wonder how sustainable that kinda play is in the grand scheme of things.

Is Luigi going to remain a consistent high-tier, or is he just a flash in the pan whose time has come and gone?

Seriously, I would really love insights into this. Colour me confused.

Honestly, the only at EVO was Concon and he got top 25. Jmiller, Boss, and Pokemaster1 were not even there. I don't recall if False used any . All his matches I watched were when he went .

Greninja's biggest nerf was the removal of DACUS

~~~~~

EVO Top 32 - Results and Characters

Please discuss characters rather than EVO itself here.

Spoiler

Results with Characters
1st. ZeRo /
2nd. Mr R
3rd. Nairo
4th. Abadango //
5th. Dabuz /
5th. Ally /
7th. ESAM
7th. FOW
9th. Larry Lurr /
9th. Rain
9th. SS
9th. Static Manny
13th. False (maybe )
13th. DaPuffster
13th. Regi
13th. Mocha
17th. 8bitman
17th. John Numbers
17th. Salem/Tyrant (lol double DQ)
17th. MJG
17th. Angel Cortez
17th. Bloodcross /
17th. CaptAwesum
25th. Trevonte /
25th. Shaky
25th. Salem/Tyrant (both DQ'd)
25th. Mr. Con Con
25th. Falln
25th. Vinnie
25th. Christian Rendon (i think?)
25th. Tweek

x8
x3
x2
x1

Talking points:
Poor performances and representation from Luigi, which may be the story for him at large events.
Villager is ****ing good, but to me it does look optimal for him to stay on the ledge.
Ally's pre-patch Marth (not utilising buffs at all) makes current Marth look anti meta and good.
Diddy exists, both with and without Rocketbarrel Attack.
G&W?
Wario is sleeper top tier but seems to struggle against Sheik.
Optimal Sonic is campy Sonic. Sorry, 6WX fans.
Mii Brawler sux.
Florida is overrated

BLOODCROSS DID NOT WIN WITH WHEN IT MATTERED. GET THAT OUT OF HERE LMFAO.

Edit: Why were Salem/Tyrant DQ'd? I watched them play and Tyrant won. I posted the victor on twitter. Dapuffster then beat Tyrant.

 

[FullMoon]

As a Brawl Jiggs main who has limited experience with Smash 4 Jiggs at a competitive level, the thought that immediately comes to mind from a Jigg's matchup mentality is "Wow, I would be utterly terrified of Greninja u-smash." I can see Greninja as a specifically bad matchup for her.

Edit: Also, Smash 4's emphasis on vertical kills does her no favors in general.

Nor does rage. Once Greninja gets to 100% he'll be killing Jiggs at 61% with Up-Smash.

That's pretty bad.

Jiggs should also be afraid of Up-Tilt because Greninja crouches when using it, the tongue is disjointed and it true combos into Up-Air for early kills on her.

Remember! Dark > Fairy! =V

 

[Ikes]

Your brother needs to play more video games.

Or at least watch EVO.

that's just the thing: he plays the game more than I do by far. He lays it religiously, practically nonstop all day. He's still only marginally better than me and for every 15 or so matches he's the one who'd take 8 or 9 of the games, so he's only just better than I am in that regard, but he's completely absorbed in the smash scene, and somehow still formulates these opinions that seem totally out of left field (example: He thinks melee falco isn't tha tgood and needs multishines to be viable at all)

And it's hard for me to argue him because I dont know how much he actually knows of the competitive scene but I still feel like it's more than what I know

 

[warionumbah2]

Tyrant beat Salem, but lost to Dapuff because Mii Brawler is so legit. DI correctly but die below 50% aaaayyyyy.

"Yeah that makes sense"

-SF 3rd strike announcer.

 

[Thinkaman]

that's just the thing: he plays the game more than I do by far. He lays it religiously, practically nonstop all day. He's still only marginally better than me and for every 15 or so matches he's the one who'd take 8 or 9 of the games, so he's only just better than I am in that regard, but he's completely absorbed in the smash scene, and somehow still formulates these opinions that seem totally out of left field (example: He thinks melee falco isn't tha tgood and needs multishines to be viable at all)

And it's hard for me to argue him because I dont know how much he actually knows of the competitive scene but I still feel like it's more than what I know

Your brother needs to play more video games.

 

[Ikes]

well you're not wrong

 

[Pyr]

that's just the thing: he plays the game more than I do by far. He lays it religiously, practically nonstop all day. He's still only marginally better than me and for every 15 or so matches he's the one who'd take 8 or 9 of the games, so he's only just better than I am in that regard, but he's completely absorbed in the smash scene, and somehow still formulates these opinions that seem totally out of left field (example: He thinks melee falco isn't tha tgood and needs multishines to be viable at all)

And it's hard for me to argue him because I dont know how much he actually knows of the competitive scene but I still feel like it's more than what I know

OT:
From the sounds of it, they play to play more then they play to improve, despite whatever their intention is. Doesn't matter how much time you put in if you don't have the right mindset. Again, really sounds like they have a mental block preventing the time spent from really mattering like it could.

 

[Luco]

Post EVO thoughts, limited to characters I play: (still no main, sry)

First, major shoutouts to @kingkaruso, @Jaxas & crew, @ Amazing Ampharos , and @Junglechief for giving me limited but absolutely crucial warm-up matches prior to the event. I didn't play a single one of you guys' characters in the initial pools, but I am 90% sure I would have drowned hard in pools (including losing my first match, which was difficult/close) if I had even the slightest bit less practice. Going to EVO after not having played for 2 months was really suboptimal, but you guys empowered me to make the most of it and break into the top 128 regardless.

is the character I actually played the most at EVO, at least in-bracket. As I mentioned before, for some reason two different people cp'd DDD against me? I didn't get it; of all the characters I play I'd pick Mac to fight Dedede given the choice! (Sure enough, I took like 30% total in those matches) I lost to GimR via two brutal throw combos (d-throw -> u-tilt -> bair _> ...), thanks to knowing nothing aobut G&W; I labbed it up immediately afterwords and verified that Mac can indeed up-b out of both initial gaps. If I fought a G&W again, I'd probably prefer Mac. I decided to play Mac in quarterfinals against Ish's Fox, despite previously thinking this was a bad matchup. (@ Amazing Ampharos 's encouragement to do so pushed me over the edge.) I played a radically different Mac, that was way less focused on hard reads and up-Bs--minimizing Fox's disproportionate punish power--and it worked out well.

continues to be a good character with a simple gameplan. Yes, he loses to Rosa, even if the Fow/Dabuz matches were clearly a WORST CASE scenario. But he's still clearly a dominant metagame force.

I only played once, in a ditto. I increasingly find myself preferring LM in most matchups I'd prefer Ganon in. Maybe if I encountered a Greninja or something it'd be different.

I only played against falln's Rosa. I lost (hard), but it was still the best choice. I also played a ton of WFT in teams friendlies; she works well on a variety of teams.

and I barely touched, even in friendlies.

though, I played in friendlies a lot. A whole lot. And I was doing... pretty great, to the point that I am strongly considering maining Duck Hunt. Of note: Rosalina and Villager both actually has significant issues with ZZS, instead of, you know, beating Duck Hunt at least 8:2. This was one of the things holding me back from the character before. Beyond that, my Duck Hunt was consistently doing very well against everyone I played friendlies with, nontrivially better than my other characters in most matchups.


So yeah:

1. Practice and for EVO
2. Win with //
3. Lose with
4. Decide to main

Makes sense to me.



I'd believe . I go Ness against every ROB I see, unconditionally.

Would you say ROB mains consider us their worst MU though? Forgive me for quoting from character boards which traditionally have their own biases (and I do believe we win the MU at least +1), but they consider us even, and even if it were +/-1 would it be as bad for them as, say, Sheik?

I can see why you'd go Ness a lot against him though of course.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

@ Thinkaman made me rethink a lot by playing him. I maintain everything I've ever said about Little Mac... if we mean 1111 Little Mac. 221X Mac, however, is a FAR more robust character with FAR better match-ups than 1111 Mac. I really, really underestimated just what a great move Grounding Blow is; it adequately addresses most platform camping patterns on a large enough number of stages that Mac can avoid getting stage screwed if he plays the stage rules right (like under EVO rules, always strike and ban the two unwinnable Mac stages: Smashville and Duck Hunt; KSM rules he would have to ban Smashville, Duck Hunt, Kongo, and Dreamland but we allow four bans so it would still be fine). You just space it right to catch the low parts of an opponent's shield or trap landings if they jump. You plummet so fast you'll never be punished. If you happen to shield stab or catch the opponent randomly, you ground them and can combo into up-B. This is sufficiently threatening that it makes it awful risk-reward to do this camping at all, allowing Mac to actually play the rest of his game instead of being gimmicked out. Assuming customs are legal, I think Mac is a thoroughly viable character with this new data. He definitely requires a VERY smart player who is educated about answers to tons of stuff (like Thinkaman lost in tournament to gimr's G&W since he didn't know the correct escape inputs from G&W dthrow to utilt to turtle for the gimp, and Thinkaman is definitely smarter than most), but Grounding Blow actually addresses his primary problem which is his opponent platform camping him. If you can't time Mac out, he gets to play his ground game which is just obviously the best ground game in the cast.

Duck Hunt is also way better than he seems at first, again relying on customs. Zig-Zag Shot is just really strong, and critically, it actually deals with the anti-projectile tools that Rosalina and Villager have (for some insane reason, Rosa's Grav Pull fails against Zig-Zag Shot most of the time). I actually think Duck Hunt wins all camping wars with customs legal, and DH has a lot of better basic tools that work well to enhance his defense. SH AC bair and dair are pretty solid, and he seems to have massive grab range with a quick grab whiff cooldown. The character has the worst set of kill moves I've ever seen in a smash character, but that weakness seems pretty fair given his really understated strengths.

In both cases though, I feel like if players are worried about non-custom play I don't think the characters can make it. @ Thinkaman proved to me through play that these characters can deal with the reasons they're typically bad characters, but it has to do with clever customs that I had previously underrated that directly address their flaws. That kinda means that the only type of player who would rationally pick up these two is someone who plays custom play completely exclusively... which inspires me as the customs guy but on a practical level does mean that it's likely we'll see players shy away from them for a while yet. For Thinkaman who is a customs guy though, he definitely should drop all of his characters other than DH and LM and just counterpick to match-up (yes Thinkaman; I'm publicly advising you to drop Ness who I think is top tier for LM and DH who aren't); I think together they cover everyone but Mario, and Mario is someone he can probably muddle through.

---

Outside of my time with Thinkaman, I picked up a few other things...

-Rosalina is seriously overrated, including by me. I previously noted that default Rosa pretty much loses to good projectile camp/zoning (grav pull only really changes that if you have the lead) but believed her customs were good enough to deal with that. My match against I'm Hip's Olimar was kinda ugly, and Seibrik's Mega Man did a good job of showing me just how obnoxious lemons are. Customs are not a win button in these projectile wars for Rosa; they let her fight back but are nowhere near as diverse as what characters like MM and Olimar can do. I'll be real; my playstyle (very patient) is more susceptible than most to better camp patterns. However, I really do think that Rosa inherently struggles here, and we also saw lots of other gimmicks. Abadongo showed on stream how Speeding Bike Wario is a problem. John Numbers showed me in person what Jumbo Hoops WFT does (his words were "Luma doesn't get to play"). We all already knew about Super Speed Palutena. I think of all this, and I add in the context that as a character Rosalina has simply not been getting top tier tournament results (especially if you factor out dabuz who is both uniquely talented AND relies on his secondary Olimar often). I think all of us who are putting her at the top of the heap need to rethink that. As a Rosalina main, I don't believe in her in that way any more, and I'm really going back to the drawing board with my strategy as a player since "Rosalina with a side of heavyweights" I don't think is going to cut it.

-This game is seriously very well balanced. I saw G&W in top 32 doing well (it was even 1111 G&W despite the fact that G&W has GREAT customs). I saw almost the entire cast played by someone at some point in a threatening way. Right now in the current metagame, I believe at least as a counterpick every character in the game other than Zelda has realistic use by a competitive player. This I think will really pollute tier discussion since we often want to talk about bottom 10 or whatever as a group of garbage characters, and that's just not the nature of the game we play.

-If anyone had doubts, Sheik is #1. I don't think there was a lot of doubt, but we're very sure now.

-Almost 100% of fears about things being broken otherwise are definitely wrong. The hype about Heavy Skull Bash especially fell completely flat. Pikachu seems good but not special. No character is good enough to be special in this game other than Sheik.

All in all, EVO was a great experience, and I think it really helped me develop my understanding of the game.