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Mewtwo's complete combo bait for Villager and even if we're being careless with our slingshots I'm not scared of Confusion because of how weak they are at range. Frame 3 NAir breaks combos, UAir and DAir are disjointed. Shadow Ball is super risky, if we Pocket a fully-charged one you can die to it as low as 10% from center stage. I'm not super scared of you reflecting it, either, since we can just Pocket it again. The only thing Confusion makes me wary of is trying to gimp you with FSmash. Sure, you can edgeguard us with default balloons but who can't?
Long story short, in my experience as soon as Mewtwo gets in disadvantage he gets bodied by Villager. And if you think Villager loses to Zelda too you're mistaken.
Mewtwo's combo-bait for everybody. Relatively speaking, I'm not scared of Villager's advantage state. Your mobility isn't great, which means I can actually land.
I don't throw charged SBs in this MU. Uncharged SBs stop Lloids and pester Villager until you approach. Confusion just means you can't poke us for free.
Nair and Dair don't stop Fair, which can attack your blind spot when you jump. And we kill Villager a lot easier than Villager kills us.
I don't think it's domination, but I'm pretty confident it's a +1 for Mewtwo.
@Ffamran
Yeah, WI is low-tier Bizarro-World. We do have some Villagers and Rosas around though. And maybe a Tink? I seem to recall seeing one once.
Doctor Mario's representation in tournaments... Sigh
I wish some player will pick one day, we can make it out of bottom tier easily if a good player shows the different attributes of the Doc: Good Frame Data, Combo game, pretty safe in neutral despite a lack of range, has answers to most playstyles.
It should be noted that tier lists are essentially just amalgamations of what the general public knows rather than what actually is. Hence the ever persistent "nerf Greninja" jokes and "MK is bad" opinions. Despite results, most people will still weigh what they've experienced versus what other have, and again with only three notable WFT players it's not hard to see why she'd be placed in bottom 10. I'm personally fine with it as I'd love to see her get the Ike treatment. Less cool down/startup on specials, bigger hitboxes, extension on grounded states ect ect.
Mewtwo's combo-bait for everybody. Relatively speaking, I'm not scared of Villager's advantage state. Your mobility isn't great, which means I can actually land.
I don't throw charged SBs in this MU. Uncharged SBs stop Lloids and pester Villager until you approach. Confusion just means you can't poke us for free.
Nair and Dair don't stop Fair, which can attack your blind spot when you jump. And we kill Villager a lot easier than Villager kills us.
I don't think it's domination, but I'm pretty confident it's a +1 for Mewtwo.
@Ffamran
Yeah, WI is low-tier Bizarro-World. We do have some Villagers and Rosas around though. And maybe a Tink? I seem to recall seeing one once.
What is our blind spot??? Please, do tell, to the best of my knowledge it would be the various diagonals around Villager's body. But a lot of characters have the same blind spots.
Villager's a lot more flexible than you give him credit for IMO. I used to think that we lost to Palutena just because of Reflect Barrier but then I "got gud" and I think it's a win for us (at least with defaults, can't speak for customs). Her frame data is mediocre/bad (much like Mewtwo) and she is also quite tall. Not strictly comparable but they share a lot of the same weaknesses.
Can't speak specifically for kill options but you're probably right in theory that Mewtwo kills Villager quicker. I'm mainly wary of UThrow and FAir.
You want to know the best strategy against characters with reflectors like Mewtwo? Empty low jumps. Works even better for Villager because his NAir comes out so fast. I use Mewtwo as well and Confusion's aerial boost is a double-edged sword in the matchup because you can't use it to cover your landing unless you've used it once. Your double jump is also slow and inefficient for escaping attack strings.
Confusion is the key point in the matchup, and if Mewtwo didn't have it he would lose horribly to Villager, his good anti-air options notwithstanding (and one of Mewtwo's best assets is how good he is at anti-air).
Calling for @Antonykun
because he's more skilled than me and can probably explain things better.
Doctor Mario's representation in tournaments... Sigh
I wish some player will pick one day, we can make it out of bottom tier easily if a good player shows the different attributes of the Doc: Good Frame Data, Combo game, pretty safe in neutral despite a lack of range, has answers to most playstyles.
There's Atomsk who uses Dr. Mario and Villager? and Rice plays Dr. Mario alongside Fox, Marth, Yoshi, Mario?, Greninja sometimes, and a bunch of other characters, but he was known for his Dr. Mario because of how skilled he was. Outside of the US, I don't know who uses Dr. Mario. It's the issue of how he's designed in this game and I would even argue in Melee. In Smash 4, he's pretty much inferior to Mario in notable ways where it doesn't do him justice while in Melee, it was the opposite where he was better than Mario which didn't do Mario justice. Let's say the Mario is Ryu and Dr. Mario is Evil Ryu. Different versions of the character or just different characters, but they shouldn't be at a point where Mario's just flat out better, but they shouldn't be so similar that it's negligible like the Pits.
In Melee, Dr. Mario was not only stronger, he was even faster than Mario - his air speed was faster for some reason. Now, he's slower than Mario in the air and ground, slower than Triple D and Peach and just barely faster than Zelda of all characters. Keep in mind that Dr. Mario's wearing a lab coat and pants where his mobility shouldn't be hindered while Zelda's wearing a somewhat restricting dress while wearing pants... Seriously, why is Dr. Mario that slow? Between Captain Falcon and Ganondorf, you can feel the power difference and their movement speed differences. Attacks, however, are bit more closer with Ganondorf actually having slightly faster aerials than Captain Falcon since Ganondorf's Fair comes out just 2 frames faster. With Mario and Dr. Mario, well, yes, the Doc is stronger, but he doesn't feel that noticeably stronger and he feels weaker than Luigi who is stronger than Mario.
Between Marth and Lucina, yes, Lucina does slightly worse than Marth at times, but not to a degree where it's almost crippling like Dr. Mario does compared to Mario. Mario's recovery isn't that great, but his air speed really does help him. Dr. Mario having a slow air speed, short vertical recovery, and Dr. Tornado not doing as much as Luigi Cyclone for vertical recoveries hurts him even more when Mario's recovery is okay and then Dr. Mario's is arguably worse. With a bit more speed, with changes to how his moves function and work with him, he can stand better than a slower, "stronger", but ultimately, weaker Mario. Dr. Mario is just too slow compared to Mario. It's not like Ganondorf, Falco, or Luigi where yes, they're slower than their counterparts, but it's made up in some way. I mean, could you imagine if Ganondorf was that slow, but only 5% stronger than Captain Falcon? That's Dr. Mario where his moves are just multipliers - it's like 1.12 or something - of Mario's which one, interesting idea, but two, really stupid when the Doc's locked to a set multiplier to his damage and I believe, knockback. It's great for certain moves like Smashes killing earlier, but it ruins some moves like Uair if he can't really combo with them.
What is our blind spot??? Please, do tell, to the best of my knowledge it would be the various diagonals around Villager's body. But a lot of characters have the same blind spots.
Villager's a lot more flexible than you give him credit for IMO. I used to think that we lost to Palutena just because of Reflect Barrier but then I "got gud" and I think it's a win for us (at least with defaults, can't speak for customs). Her frame data is mediocre/bad (much like Mewtwo) and she is also quite tall. Not strictly comparable but they share a lot of the same weaknesses.
Can't speak specifically for kill options but you're probably right in theory that Mewtwo kills Villager quicker. I'm mainly wary of UThrow and FAir.
You want to know the best strategy against characters with reflectors like Mewtwo? Empty low jumps. Works even better for Villager because his NAir comes out so fast. I use Mewtwo as well and Confusion's aerial boost is a double-edged sword in the matchup because you can't use it to cover your landing unless you've used it once. Your double jump is also slow and inefficient for escaping attack strings.
Confusion is the key point in the matchup, and if Mewtwo didn't have it he would lose horribly to Villager, his good anti-air options notwithstanding (and one of Mewtwo's best assets is how good he is at anti-air).
Calling for @Antonykun
because he's more skilled than me and can probably explain things better.
oh great now im tagged and forced to talk about a character that has little vidoe footage and stuff to work with
Btw Villager does have a blind spot of sorts specifically the end of F-tilt and the area where Slingshots arc upwards, its very easy for an enemy to just wat around those places and try to punish what villager does granted thats mostly falcon or Fox characs who have nast punishes and have the mobility to show too.
Anyways on to Mewtwo. Honestly Villagers advantage against mewtwo is just as good as M2's advantage villager just kicks mewtwo out of the stage. Mewtwo can't get gimped, sure but he can flat out die to the child's powerful edgeguard (seriously why does shooting a slingshot deal that much knockback?)
Early on the Villager meta people were saying that Villager lost to everyone with a reflector. I personally made sure to stomp out that false lie right out of existence villager's projectiles are not how he gets kills nor are reflectors safe enough to spam to the point where villager is actually afraid of them. Quite honestly if your argument for winning against Villager has we have a reflector the you might want to consider reevaluating the Villager the reflector worked on. The only reflector in this game that is an actual threat against Villager is Falco's due to sheer range and endlag.
I have nothing else i'm comfortable saying about villager vs mewtwo cuz i don't know the char
Edit: this is a 70% combo on Fox MikeKirby kept doing in a grand finals yesterday... just to be clear. https://youtu.be/wl-QCoGVkig https://youtu.be/wl-QCoGVkig 2:15, 2:58, 7:25 (failed to walk forward), 8:15, 9:46, 11:05, etc. Yeah the Fox got hit by way more uptilts than he should have, but... I just want to point out that Kirby can do this to Fox. We've always known about the simple stuff with Uptilt to Upsmash, but it turns out reversing Uptilts, using SHFF Upairs (C-stick set to Attack and double sticking helps) and using sourspot Uptilt->Dair (which combos!) leads to even more damage! It's almost Brawl-Pikachu's-chaingrab-on-Fox levels of damage. Rage can screw with it, and Uptilts are a bit harder to land than Grabs, and DI might weaken it a little, but still. Is this not the most damaging (non-infinite) combo in the game? On a high/top tier, no less!
I'm not sure how effective it is on Sheik, the Upairs may not connect, and you may need to end with Upsmash instead. Still, that's 40+ damage for free.
It's a sad thing, but the best strategy against WiiFit genuinely is time out.
And it's not the opponent's fault at all, it's wii fit.
The character's entire meta is punishing you attempting to punish her spamming dodges in front of your face when you're close and being as happy as rain if you're not within mid range. She will never approach you or anyone.
I'd argue the same concept for Villager vs Sheik... why would Villager try to approach when Sheik has better frame data, hitboxes, mobility, and overall safety? Which is why I can't fault C.Awesum for trying to time out Sheiks. It's pretty funny seeing everybody rage at him, and instead cheering on people using the best character in the game, as if that's somehow more "honorable"
What is our blind spot??? Please, do tell, to the best of my knowledge it would be the various diagonals around Villager's body. But a lot of characters have the same blind spots.
Villager's a lot more flexible than you give him credit for IMO. I used to think that we lost to Palutena just because of Reflect Barrier but then I "got gud" and I think it's a win for us (at least with defaults, can't speak for customs). Her frame data is mediocre/bad (much like Mewtwo) and she is also quite tall. Not strictly comparable but they share a lot of the same weaknesses.
Can't speak specifically for kill options but you're probably right in theory that Mewtwo kills Villager quicker. I'm mainly wary of UThrow and FAir.
You want to know the best strategy against characters with reflectors like Mewtwo? Empty low jumps. Works even better for Villager because his NAir comes out so fast. I use Mewtwo as well and Confusion's aerial boost is a double-edged sword in the matchup because you can't use it to cover your landing unless you've used it once. Your double jump is also slow and inefficient for escaping attack strings.
Confusion is the key point in the matchup, and if Mewtwo didn't have it he would lose horribly to Villager, his good anti-air options notwithstanding (and one of Mewtwo's best assets is how good he is at anti-air).
Calling for @Antonykun
because he's more skilled than me and can probably explain things better.
Villager's Fair and Bair are what make his blind spot different, along with his Nair having short range and his mobility not being that great. Mewtwo's Fair just uniquely exploits it, and with how much Villager likes the air, I think that's really the key point in the MU--Confusion's just a bonus.
We need a Toon Link to be in the PR just so we can call ourselves the Hyrule state!
There's Atomsk who uses Dr. Mario and Villager? and Rice plays Dr. Mario alongside Fox, Marth, Yoshi, Mario?, Greninja sometimes, and a bunch of other characters, but he was known for his Dr. Mario because of how skilled he was. Outside of the US, I don't know who uses Dr. Mario. It's the issue of how he's designed in this game and I would even argue in Melee. In Smash 4, he's pretty much inferior to Mario in notable ways where it doesn't do him justice while in Melee, it was the opposite where he was better than Mario which didn't do Mario justice. Let's say the Mario is Ryu and Dr. Mario is Evil Ryu. Different versions of the character or just different characters, but they shouldn't be at a point where Mario's just flat out better, but they shouldn't be so similar that it's negligible like the Pits.
In Melee, Dr. Mario was not only stronger, he was even faster than Mario - his air speed was faster for some reason. Now, he's slower than Mario in the air and ground, slower than Triple D and Peach and just barely faster than Zelda of all characters. Keep in mind that Dr. Mario's wearing a lab coat and pants where his mobility shouldn't be hindered while Zelda's wearing a somewhat restricting dress while wearing pants... Seriously, why is Dr. Mario that slow? Between Captain Falcon and Ganondorf, you can feel the power difference and their movement speed differences. Attacks, however, are bit more closer with Ganondorf actually having slightly faster aerials than Captain Falcon since Ganondorf's Fair comes out just 2 frames faster. With Mario and Dr. Mario, well, yes, the Doc is stronger, but he doesn't feel that noticeably stronger and he feels weaker than Luigi who is stronger than Mario.
Between Marth and Lucina, yes, Lucina does slightly worse than Marth at times, but not to a degree where it's almost crippling like Dr. Mario does compared to Mario. Mario's recovery isn't that great, but his air speed really does help him. Dr. Mario having a slow air speed, short vertical recovery, and Dr. Tornado not doing as much as Luigi Cyclone for vertical recoveries hurts him even more when Mario's recovery is okay and then Dr. Mario's is arguably worse. With a bit more speed, with changes to how his moves function and work with him, he can stand better than a slower, "stronger", but ultimately, weaker Mario. Dr. Mario is just too slow compared to Mario. It's not like Ganondorf, Falco, or Luigi where yes, they're slower than their counterparts, but it's made up in some way. I mean, could you imagine if Ganondorf was that slow, but only 5% stronger than Captain Falcon? That's Dr. Mario where his moves are just multipliers - it's like 1.12 or something - of Mario's which one, interesting idea, but two, really stupid when the Doc's locked to a set multiplier to his damage and I believe, knockback. It's great for certain moves like Smashes killing earlier, but it ruins some moves like Uair if he can't really combo with them.
Yeah, Doctor Mario's lack of speed really hurts him. I mean, its like, really unfair that Doc is slower than DDD, w/out all the advantages of an heavy weight. I still believe Doc has the upperhand over some charas that Mario doesn't have, mostly the ones where the kill power matters more than the mobility, and Doctor Tornado being very useful ( Those matchups are rare, but not non existant )
The point is, he's not totally outclassed, but being sort of outclassed doesn't help representation, as most ppl will prefer Mario, unless they need a specific matchup that Doc performs better. I hope the balance team doesn't remain so frail on buffs, so some characters can get some major changes: The mobility of Dr.Mario & Robin is an example.
Also, can't blame you on there, but while not true combo, Doc is able to chain Uairs quite easily, ultimately leading to regrabs. This is a reason why i don't like Mario mains that secondaries Doc, they tend to have relatively limited combos, and blaming it on the lack of mobility. Those are often lack of knowledge, the different knockback sets for horizontal combos, which is the opposite of vertical based combos of Mario. They also don't exploit the few advantages of Doc well enough as well, but anyway.
@Asdioh
Sheik is essentially the other character who plays like that with success (from the ground). Villager fortunately doesn't have potent air stalling/directional air dodges nor is dangerous to pursue off stage (customs off). Lucario was like this before his recovery actually became punishable.
I'm serious when I say she almost lacks a disadvantaged state. There is close to no trapping possible against that character, and they're not light like Sheik, ZSS or Pikachu are to have medium strength things kill at reasonable points. So how do you confirm a kill on something without it being a true combo on that monstrosity? It's just too much risk for an opponent to try... reliable means of winning is to time them out or go for spike attempts off stage (which most characters can die for messing up).
I think Dr. Mario is better than Mario vs Luigi as the mobility issue isn't as important, pills are probably better than fireballs in that matchup, and Dr. Mario's higher damage output on individual hits works in his favour as Mario's long combos don't work on Luigi anyway.
His up-smash doesn't kill as early but it still serves the same purpose to beat out luigi's aerials.
(just a specific matchup that Doc might have the upperhand compared to Mario)
Yeah, Doctor Mario's lack of speed really hurts him. I mean, its like, really unfair that Doc is slower than DDD, w/out all the advantages of an heavy weight. I still believe Doc has the upperhand over some charas that Mario doesn't have, mostly the ones where the kill power matters more than the mobility, and Doctor Tornado being very useful ( Those matchups are rare, but not non existant )
The point is, he's not totally outclassed, but being sort of outclassed doesn't help representation, as most ppl will prefer Mario, unless they need a specific matchup that Doc performs better. I hope the balance team doesn't remain so frail on buffs, so some characters can get some major changes: The mobility of Dr.Mario & Robin is an example.
Also, can't blame you on there, but while not true combo, Doc is able to chain Uairs quite easily, ultimately leading to regrabs. This is a reason why i don't like Mario mains that secondaries Doc, they tend to have relatively limited combos, and blaming it on the lack of mobility. Those are often lack of knowledge, the different knockback sets for horizontal combos, which is the opposite of vertical based combos of Mario. They also don't exploit the few advantages of Doc well enough as well, but anyway.
Combos aren't everything, especially true combos since, well, not a lot of characters even have true combos past a certain point. It's when hits that don't combo also don't do well for killing or knockback. That's kind of what I'm getting with Dr. Mario's Uair. It was also an issue with Ike's dash attack being weaker than his Dtilt which was about twice as fast and although limited to hitting grounded opponents, was more useful and safer. Patch changed that and Ike now has a quicker dash attack that kills and can be set up. The Doc's current Up Smash? Pretty cool since it works differently and from what I remember, he can use the horizontal knockback to setup followups and try for a lock or reset with Fast Pills.
Mobility matters when it's not countered by something worthwhile. Ganondorf's mobility is countered by how freaking hard he hits, his quick aerials for a heavyweight, and even quick regular moves for a heavyweight. Sure, projectiles, chasing, and disjoints bother him, but if you screw up, if you let Ganondorf see you miss a beat, he's going to murder you. Olimar's not quick, but Pikmin are awesome projectiles and "stat changes" since each Pikmin does something different allowing Olimar to mixup what he does. Also, Olimar's the only character who does damage over time as everyone else does damage per second or damage per hit. It's when characters are slow, but don't have much to make up for it like Zelda and Dr. Mario. Sure, Zelda hits hard, but that requires you to be really precise and shields pretty much wreck her not to mention the landing lag on Fair and Bair. Not really good projectiles hurt her too.
Dr. Mario at least boasts quick attacks, but they aren't super strong like Falco's whose slow mobility is made up for being able to combo and kill with the same moves. The Doc also has a really good out of shield option with Super Jump Punch and his short hop really lets him abuse his Bair. At the same time, he does things really similarly to Mario... It's not like Ganondorf who walls you out with boots to the face while Captain Falcon goes for jabs, grabs, and aerial strings or Luigi who combos more through grabs and has confirms off of grabs while Mario combos differently and goes for reads for kills. Doc's jab, tilts, Smashes, and aerials do similar things, but thankfully, a patch made it so his Up Smash works differently. Super Jump Punch, Down Smash killing, Fair for kills instead of spiking, Doctor Tornado, and Up Smash being different are all great, but there could be more. What if the Doc's jab killed almost like Captain Falcon's Gentleman, what if his Dtilt launched people higher and worked a bit more like Falco and Ike's, what if his Utilt hit twice and killed like Ryu's, what if his Uair could gimp like Ganondorf's, or what if Nair was stronger at the end so it killed like a reverse Luigi's Nair? To make him different and functioning more to his own play style or defining moves that weren't useful like Marth's jab would all be great for him. I wouldn't mind if Dr. Mario's D-throw killed like Ike's while his U-throw was for comboing instead.
Characters I think Mewtwo has at least a slight advantage against:
Mewtwo in general has a good time against larger characters because he doesn't have to worry as much about his attacks whiffing. Charizard in particular is I think vulnerable to this because he doesn't have quite the kill power of the other heavies (though still a good amount). Another big thing is that Flare Blitz is a really bad idea against Mewtwo. Like, people say that you shouldn't Flare Blitz against anyone, but Mewtwo can literally shield, dash forward and instantly do one of the strongest up smashes in the game.
I know some people disagree with this, but I think Mewtwo still does well against Lucario, winning neutral, neutralizing Aura Sphere, and being able to exploit holes in offense with some strong attacks.
Re: Villager, Mewtwo's Reflect can be baited but the large Reflect Window can be nasty. Dash attacks get tossed aside. Reflecting lloid rocket at close range will simultaneously pick up Villager AND launch the rocket into him. Slingshots off the ledge can also get eaten by reflect.
Closer to 5:5
This isn't to say all of the other characters are 4:6 or worse, I just haven't thought as much about them. Also somewhat ironically I think Mewtwo's best against himself.
Gonna nitpick here but DK bodies Mewtwo. Rage just benefits him too much and one of the many problems DK has is that his Bair (only safe move in the air) doesn't safely hit short characters. It's not safe on block because to hit them that low it won't autocancel. Mewtwo is huge. Bair is everything in this matchup and Mewtwo's floatyness + size make for easy Bair true combos. DK's punish game, while not quite as amazing as the likes of Ganon/Ryu/Charizard, still really screws Mewtwo over because of his lack of safe moves. DK has a similar problem but not in this matchup because he has something Mewtwo doesn't: traction. As a result DK's main spacing moves (Ftilt, Dtilt, Bair) are much safer than Mewtwo's.
And that's just the neutral. When DK is in advantage Giant punch is ridiculous. Full charge is powerful enough even without rage but the 10 wind kills at (and I'm not even exaggerating here) 30% near the ledge. THIRTY. PERCENT. And not to mention there's a huge hurtbox to hit. Granted, full charge is more optimal due to the armor from frames 11-20 but that kills at like 50 and isn't hard to land, unlike 10 wind.
DK gets a lot from rage in this matchup where Mewtwo doesn't. Up throw won't kill DK till after 150 on most stages with proper DI.
I'm sorry but DK wins this matchup hard. It's nowhere near even.
One question... how is the ~#20th highest ranked character at an average of 42 points? Maybe the math works out. Does this mean that theoretically the ~30 characters below that, if ranked, would average between 42 and ~50 points?
One question... how is the ~#20th highest ranked character at an average of 42 points? Maybe the math works out. Does this mean that theoretically the ~30 characters below that, if ranked, would average between 42 and ~50 points?
I would be cautious at calling them points. Their average was scaled with their frequency of inclusion. A 1 vote character at 15th place would be "225".
Gonna nitpick here but DK bodies Mewtwo. Rage just benefits him too much and one of the many problems DK has is that his Bair (only safe move in the air) doesn't safely hit short characters. It's not safe on block because to hit them that low it won't autocancel. Mewtwo is huge. Bair is everything in this matchup and Mewtwo's floatyness + size make for easy Bair true combos. DK's punish game, while not quite as amazing as the likes of Ganon/Ryu/Charizard, still really screws Mewtwo over because of his lack of safe moves. DK has a similar problem but not in this matchup because he has something Mewtwo doesn't: traction. As a result DK's main spacing moves (Ftilt, Dtilt, Bair) are much safer than Mewtwo's.
And that's just the neutral. When DK is in advantage Giant punch is ridiculous. Full charge is powerful enough even without rage but the 10 wind kills at (and I'm not even exaggerating here) 30% near the ledge. THIRTY. PERCENT. And not to mention there's a huge hurtbox to hit. Granted, full charge is more optimal due to the armor from frames 11-20 but that kills at like 50 and isn't hard to land, unlike 10 wind.
DK gets a lot from rage in this matchup where Mewtwo doesn't. Up throw won't kill DK till after 150 on most stages with proper DI.
I'm sorry but DK wins this matchup hard. It's nowhere near even.
Eh...Remember that "yay, he's big!" goes both ways, and Mewtwo will be looking to kill with Jab+Disable, which IIRC works perfectly on DK and will kill him at 80%.
He gives us more trouble than Bowser, Dedede, and Zard, but I don't think it's any worse than even.
And that's just the neutral. When DK is in advantage Giant punch is ridiculous. Full charge is powerful enough even without rage but the 10 wind kills at (and I'm not even exaggerating here) 30% near the ledge. THIRTY. PERCENT. And not to mention there's a huge hurtbox to hit. Granted, full charge is more optimal due to the armor from frames 11-20 but that kills at like 50 and isn't hard to land, unlike 10 wind.
so my brother thinks that there's no reason not to play sheik or rosalina and that the meta is too centralized on the short lost of very top tiers and that sheik is meta knight levels of broken and I dont know what to think about this. I guess i just dont know enough to form a definite opinion. Is he right? I don't know.
Combos aren't everything, especially true combos since, well, not a lot of characters even have true combos past a certain point. It's when hits that don't combo also don't do well for killing or knockback. That's kind of what I'm getting with Dr. Mario's Uair. It was also an issue with Ike's dash attack being weaker than his Dtilt which was about twice as fast and although limited to hitting grounded opponents, was more useful and safer. Patch changed that and Ike now has a quicker dash attack that kills and can be set up. The Doc's current Up Smash? Pretty cool since it works differently and from what I remember, he can use the horizontal knockback to setup followups and try for a lock or reset with Fast Pills.
Mobility matters when it's not countered by something worthwhile. Ganondorf's mobility is countered by how freaking hard he hits, his quick aerials for a heavyweight, and even quick regular moves for a heavyweight. Sure, projectiles, chasing, and disjoints bother him, but if you screw up, if you let Ganondorf see you miss a beat, he's going to murder you. Olimar's not quick, but Pikmin are awesome projectiles and "stat changes" since each Pikmin does something different allowing Olimar to mixup what he does. Also, Olimar's the only character who does damage over time as everyone else does damage per second or damage per hit. It's when characters are slow, but don't have much to make up for it like Zelda and Dr. Mario. Sure, Zelda hits hard, but that requires you to be really precise and shields pretty much wreck her not to mention the landing lag on Fair and Bair. Not really good projectiles hurt her too.
Dr. Mario at least boasts quick attacks, but they aren't super strong like Falco's whose slow mobility is made up for being able to combo and kill with the same moves. The Doc also has a really good out of shield option with Super Jump Punch and his short hop really lets him abuse his Bair. At the same time, he does things really similarly to Mario... It's not like Ganondorf who walls you out with boots to the face while Captain Falcon goes for jabs, grabs, and aerial strings or Luigi who combos more through grabs and has confirms off of grabs while Mario combos differently and goes for reads for kills. Doc's jab, tilts, Smashes, and aerials do similar things, but thankfully, a patch made it so his Up Smash works differently. Super Jump Punch, Down Smash killing, Fair for kills instead of spiking, Doctor Tornado, and Up Smash being different are all great, but there could be more. What if the Doc's jab killed almost like Captain Falcon's Gentleman, what if his Dtilt launched people higher and worked a bit more like Falco and Ike's, what if his Utilt hit twice and killed like Ryu's, what if his Uair could gimp like Ganondorf's, or what if Nair was stronger at the end so it killed like a reverse Luigi's Nair? To make him different and functioning more to his own play style or defining moves that weren't useful like Marth's jab would all be great for him. I wouldn't mind if Dr. Mario's D-throw killed like Ike's while his U-throw was for comboing instead.
Well, she is going to make you fit... in a coffin.
I believe the buffs/theories you mentionned wouldn't help Doctor Mario that much. The two aerials that Doc & Mario don't share are completely flawed on Doc's Side, i'd like to see a major lag reduction on Doc's Fair, so Dthrow -> Fair can become a kill confirm throw ( It already is, for 1/3 of the roster ) . As for Dair, turning it so it can either spike, or allow Doc to follow up with any kind of move would definitly be enjoyable as well. Also, Doc's BackThrow should be much, much stronger, i mean, if the character has to go in a defensive playstyle, might as well give him tools. I'd fix Dr.Tornado in a special way, let me explain: Luigi's Tornado has more horizontal reach? Alright, but it also has more vertical reach than Dr.Tornado, which is very unfortunate to me, i'd change that ( Not nerf Luigi, but Buff Doc's ) so it solves one of Doc's flaws. Even considering all these possible buffs, i believe the problem is the core character: Poor mobility, Poor recovery, Poor Range doesn't help a character like him.
Also, Doctor Mario's Uair has a hitbox that sends opponent at an angle that can gimp effectively.
It is true that combos aren't everything, but it does matter, much like any kind of knowledge on your character. If you're able to get 50% out of strings & combos, or take advantage of your opponent to get merciless blows, it will obviously help you win the match.
I wasn't saying mobility doesn't matter, i was just saying that depending of the matchup, Doc's ease to kill can be more useful than Mario's mobility, leading to a niche Doc has that Mario may not have( See: Lucario Matchup )
Even through Doc doesn't shine as much, he's still a very enjoyable character. I hope more people get to give him a chance as he is quite enjoyable, with his ability to get quite a lot once he's in =)
@RayNoire
You sure talk down a lot about mewtwo so lets just clear things up, for the sake of not spreading misinformation. I fully understand people down-talking their mains because they want them to appear weaker such that winning with them is a big feat, its standard over here on smashboards. Metaknight mains in brawl thinking he had even matchups vs anyone LOL.
We arent talking opinions here, get them out of here.
The only misleading hitbox is bair and uair and I wouldnt call them key moves. In fact, Id say they are his two worst moves with ftilt up there as well. Mewtwo is a predominantly ground based defensive character, his aerial chases are weak, so what if his uair is bad, thats what catching landing lag instead is for.
I have only found his standing grab to have the wonky hitbox which cant hit crouching characters, and it has poor range. His dashgrab is fine, nothing wrong with it. Its not top tier but it isnt bad. His pivot grab is very good though, he slides far with it, I think its top half at least.
Mewtwo has one of the best advantage states. See what I did there? I posted something with absolutely no reason or explanation, just like you.
I can understand that Mewtwo does have a bad disadvantage state. I can also see that many characters in this game have similar problems, Mewtwo at least has a stupidly powerful projectile to help out.
See this gets me. A lot of people think he has bad throws because he doesnt get auto-combos from dthrow. Yes, many characters do get this, but in return mewtwo gest 3 throws with high base knockback. This is exactly part of his design, since he uses these throws to get the enemy away from him to charge shadow ball. If you were a character with a similar projectile, but you had 1 kill throw and 3 low-distance throws, you would have to stale the kill throw in order to charge your projectile.
Mewtwo doesnt have that. He can keep the enemy very far away with fthrow which does high damage and with high base knockback gives him a lot of time to charge it.
Yes not having dthrow follow ups is a weakness, but his b and uthrow are strong kill moves (uthrow is the strongest kill throw in the game dont let anyone tell you otherwise, its stronger than ness bthrow from the centre of the stage and his bthrow itself is only marginally weaker at the ledge). fthrows purpose is to charge shadowball and not stale those kill throws. dthrow does however work well vs heavies at low % who cant dodge a dash attack follow up.
Mewtwos average frame data for grounded attacks : 11.125
Captain falcons ; 14.625
Mewtwos average frame data for aerial attacks : 10.4
Captain falcons ; 10.6
Mewtwos frame data is indeed bad, but it is consistent with the damage of his attacks. He is a heavy hitter, you cant compare his frame 7, 13% fair to faster, weaker hits. If mewtwo had better frame data while his aerials still doing an average of over 12%, he'd be pretty damn powerful. Sure I would have liked his attacks to be faster, but he hits slow and hits hard, thats his character design.
dtilt is safe, shadowball is safe, jab1 is quite safe. Most characters in this game only have a handful of safe moves, so having 'few' actually puts mewtwo in the middle of the cast for this stat. Can you name many characters with 4 safe moves? Not everyone is sheik.
...Basically, name a weakness other than killing and damage, and Mewtwo has it. He may not be the worst character, but he definitely belongs in the conversation.
Who would have thought, in a game where the #1 objective is to KO your opponents which you do by damaging them, that a character who does high damage and has a slew of kill moves, would be bad? He has the typical heavy-hitter disadvantage of being a big target, but he also has a lot of things that heavy hitters never do in an amazing recovery, great edgeguarding options, reflector, high power projectile and kill throws. It balances out.
I agree that Mewtwo is underwhelming, but way too often people talk about his bad points without understanding that he his like a truck, its like no one has ever seen just how much damage his attacks do and that his uthrow is stronger than Ness' bthrow. Hes going to have weaknesses to compensate for that I just wish people got it through their head that he is a heavy hitter, not just some lightweight.
And I'm going to repeat it for the people that never read. Mewtwos uthrow kills earlier than Ness' bthrow at equal rage.
It's super weird but for whatever reason it is. Just before full charge, it is disgustingly powerful and disgustingly risky. But at full you get armor so I don't really use the 10 wind unless I'm confident....
...and in the lead.
Eh...Remember that "yay, he's big!" goes both ways, and Mewtwo will be looking to kill with Jab+Disable, which IIRC works perfectly on DK and will kill him at 80%.
He gives us more trouble than Bowser, Dedede, and Zard, but I don't think it's any worse than even.
Second only to Luigi, I think. That's bottom tier.
I believe the buffs/theories you mentionned wouldn't help Doctor Mario that much. The two aerials that Doc & Mario don't share are completely flawed on Doc's Side, i'd like to see a major lag reduction on Doc's Fair, so Dthrow -> Fair can become a kill confirm throw ( It already is, for 1/3 of the roster ) . As for Dair, turning it so it can either spike, or allow Doc to follow up with any kind of move would definitly be enjoyable as well. Also, Doc's BackThrow should be much, much stronger, i mean, if the character has to go in a defensive playstyle, might as well give him tools. I'd fix Dr.Tornado in a special way, let me explain: Luigi's Tornado has more horizontal reach? Alright, but it also has more vertical reach than Dr.Tornado, which is very unfortunate to me, i'd change that ( Not nerf Luigi, but Buff Doc's ) so it solves one of Doc's flaws. Even considering all these possible buffs, i believe the problem is the core character: Poor mobility, Poor recovery, Poor Range doesn't help a character like him.
Also, Doctor Mario's Uair has a hitbox that sends opponent at an angle that can gimp effectively.
It is true that combos aren't everything, but it does matter, much like any kind of knowledge on your character. If you're able to get 50% out of strings & combos, or take advantage of your opponent to get merciless blows, it will obviously help you win the match.
I wasn't saying mobility doesn't matter, i was just saying that depending of the matchup, Doc's ease to kill can be more useful than Mario's mobility, leading to a niche Doc has that Mario may not have( See: Lucario Matchup )
Even through Doc doesn't shine as much, he's still a very enjoyable character. I hope more people get to give him a chance as he is quite enjoyable, with his ability to get quite a lot once he's in =)
Well, my lists were "what ifs" more than actual buffs or changes. It's mostly that Dr. Mario does have stronger moves, but they're not that stronger or designed in a way to be stronger or working well with him. Slapping on a multiplier for him, making him slower, and making some moves slightly different isn't enough. It's just a, "Hey, look, another character in Smash 4." At least he's not on the levels of Pit and Dark Pit...
Dr. Mario and Mario's Fair startup is 16 frames and while Dr. Mario's kills early, it doesn't spike. Ganondorf's Fair startup is 14 frames and is pretty similar in strength, but it's faster and consistent. So, why not the Doc's too? The fact it doesn't spike, but is still slow as one while having 3 hitboxes like Mario's where the late hit is the weakest, early hit is the second weakest, and the middle hit is the strongest, but guess what? The middle hit doesn't come out until frame 17 which for Mario, spikes, for Dr. Mario? Does 16.8% which hey, Ganondorf already does a consistent 16% or 17% through his Fair's hit frames of 14-19; 6 active frames. At 16, Doc does 11.2%, 17-19, 16.8%, and 21-22, 10.08%. For a total of 7 active frames, you only have 3 active frames for the good hit which begins 3 frames slower than Ganondorf's. If Dr. Mario's was a frame 16-22 move that consistently did 16%, that might be better or if it was made quicker like frame 15-21 or 14-20 while doing 15%, that might be better since there's this consistent hit of it's going to kill at that one percent and always that one percent instead of having to make sure you land the right hit. Or we could go with a frame 10-16 move that only does 12%. It'd be weaker, but it'd be a lot faster.
If Mario and Dr. Mario ran at the same speed, it might not be that different where Dr. Mario is suddenly better. He'd still have a shorter jump, slower air speed, and his recovery is a bit worse, but would his life be better? Absolutely, since he would be able to chase and keep pace with people on the ground. If he fell faster or was heavier, he could survive longer. If Mario's more offensive, Dr. Mario being more defensive can work, but something needs to be done so he can be defensive. For Captain Falcon, that's blazing speed and ability to combo easily while Ganondorf takes hits and hits hard. Maybe something could work for Dr. Mario where he takes hits easier than Mario and hits harder to make up for lack of speed and combos which he already does, but Dr. Mario still takes hits like Mario. If his lab coat really is heavy and is the reason for him running that slow, then Dr. Mario should be about as heavy as Yoshi or Wario or have a faster fall speed to help his and Mario's already good weight.
Dr. Mario's a strong character, but his flaws seems a bit more pronounced than some. Can he hold his own? Probably. I don't see him getting invalidated by anyone and his tough MUs are probably everyone's tough MUs. I mean, if Dr. Mario went 40:60 against everyone, that's still good. It means he's slightly disadvantaged, but not disadvantaged, severely disadvantaged, or invalidated by anyone.
The only misleading hitbox is bair and uair and I wouldnt call them key moves. In fact, Id say they are his two worst moves with ftilt up there as well. Mewtwo is a predominantly ground based defensive character, his aerial chases are weak, so what if his uair is bad, thats what catching landing lag instead is for.
See this gets me. A lot of people think he has bad throws because he doesnt get auto-combos from dthrow. Yes, many characters do get this, but in return mewtwo gest 3 throws with high base knockback. This is exactly part of his design, since he uses these throws to get the enemy away from him to charge shadow ball. If you were a character with a similar projectile, but you had 1 kill throw and 3 low-distance throws, you would have to stale the kill throw in order to charge your projectile.
Mewtwo doesnt have that. He can keep the enemy very far away with fthrow which does high damage and with high base knockback gives him a lot of time to charge it.
Yes not having dthrow follow ups is a weakness, but his b and uthrow are strong kill moves (uthrow is the strongest kill throw in the game dont let anyone tell you otherwise, its stronger than ness bthrow from the centre of the stage and his bthrow itself is only marginally weaker at the ledge). fthrows purpose is to charge shadowball and not stale those kill throws. dthrow does however work well vs heavies at low % who cant dodge a dash attack follow up.
Who would have thought, in a game where the #1 objective is to KO your opponents which you do by damaging them, that a character who does high damage and has a slew of kill moves, would be bad? He has the typical heavy-hitter disadvantage of being a big target, but he also has a lot of things that heavy hitters never do in an amazing recovery, great edgeguarding options, reflector, high power projectile and kill throws. It balances out.
I agree that Mewtwo is underwhelming, but way too often people talk about his bad points without understanding that he his like a truck, its like no one has ever seen just how much damage his attacks do and that his uthrow is stronger than Ness' bthrow. Hes going to have weaknesses to compensate for that I just wish people got it through their head that he is a heavy hitter, not just some lightweight.
And I'm going to repeat it for the people that never read. Mewtwos uthrow kills earlier than Ness' bthrow at equal rage.
Yeah, so we kill each other at about the same time, we wreck each other in advantage, your pokes are slightly better but I have a projectile and can spike you out of Up-B. Mewtwo definitely has worse matchups than that.
Wait... Mewtwo's frame data is bad? Have you seen Shulk's? Shulk's frame data is ***, but even with horribly slow moves, he has range and power to make up for it. What about Mewtwo? I'm pretty sure some of his moves are fairly average-speed, he has some low end lag moves like Down Smash, Shadow Ball, and Confusion, and his landing lag isn't that bad. If you want bad which I'm damn sure no character has, you'd have to have a character who not only has slow moves, but poor range, horrible landing lag, horrible end lag, low damage output, low knockback, poor mobility, really low weight, a humongous hurtbox, really low jumps, and moves that interact poorly with each other and with the game in general. No character in this game has that bad of a frame data.
Hell, there are characters with fantastic frame data, but they're not good. Case in point: Falco, Kirby, and Dr. Mario. They're not top tiers, high tiers, or even mid tiers, but their frame data is among the top for hit speed, damage output, and landing lag. Except they're all slow-moving characters with poor range who die pretty easily and don't really have good recoveries - remove Kirby's ability to jump and he's screwed like everyone else. Then you have characters like Sheik who in theory with her pitiful damage output and knockback should not be a top tier, but her raw speed, low landing lag, low end lag, the low knockback, and how her moves work allowing her to combo is what makes her strong. Or Greninja and Ganondorf who being that slow in some way, should not be doing well at all, but Greninja moves quickly, his moves interact well allowing him to setup followups and kills while Ganondorf just hits freaking hard enough where he does not care that he's jogging instead of running.
Wait... Mewtwo's frame data is bad? Have you seen Shulk's? Shulk's frame data is ***, but even with horribly slow moves, he has range and power to make up for it. What about Mewtwo? I'm pretty sure some of his moves are fairly average-speed, he has some low end lag moves like Down Smash, Shadow Ball, and Confusion, and his landing lag isn't that bad. If you want bad which I'm damn sure no character has, you'd have to have a character who not only has slow moves, but poor range, horrible landing lag, horrible end lag, low damage output, low knockback, poor mobility, really low weight, a humongous hurtbox, really low jumps, and moves that interact poorly with each other and with the game in general. No character in this game has that bad of a frame data.
Hell, there are characters with fantastic frame data, but they're not good. Case in point: Falco, Kirby, and Dr. Mario. They're not top tiers, high tiers, or even mid tiers, but their frame data is among the top for hit speed, damage output, and landing lag. Except they're all slow-moving characters with poor range who die pretty easily and don't really have good recoveries - remove Kirby's ability to jump and he's screwed like everyone else. Then you have characters like Sheik who in theory with her pitiful damage output and knockback should not be a top tier, but her raw speed, low landing lag, low end lag, the low knockback, and how her moves work allowing her to combo is what makes her strong. Or Greninja and Ganondorf who being that slow in some way, should not be doing well at all, but Greninja moves quickly, his moves interact well allowing him to setup followups and kills while Ganondorf just hits freaking hard enough where he doe not care that he's jogging instead of running.
I mean..."bad" is relative. Someone's got to be bad.
Mewtwo's frame data is a weakness. His moves are slower than average. So yeah, it's bad. Especially for a character with almost no disjoint (not even Usmash is meaningfully disjointed).
While I've only messed around with Mewtwo myself, one of my friends is a Charizard/Mewtwo main so I have a decent amount of experience against Mewtwo. I personally don't have much faith in the character, but he does become a very threatening presence against a few characters in my experience. The Villager v Mewtwo MU seems pretty squarely in Villager's favor, but Villy's general lack of reliable kill setups can allow Mewtwo to exert his pressure against him moreso than with many characters. Mewtwo does have some strong tools but is definitely in the bottom half of the cast. I feel he has a bunch of even MUs simply by design (Lucario, Duck Hunt, Samus, Robin, etc may be worth discussing); he can get early kills but dies early himself.
@RayNoire
Your first pic is irrelevant since he has clearly been hit. It was the same in brawl http://imgur.com/uA5pNag,41I5T7G Theres two images there btw. When you get hit by an attack your character will flinch backwards and on the first few frames after being hit it looks like the attack hit you from a freakin mile away.
And you didnt really address my points. When I said he has a bad disadvantage state, I said so do many characters when you compare everyone to sheik. I think his is fine with shadowball. If you dont have shadowball then hes in trouble, and you should have one.
Its no different to claiming a character like villager has a bad camp game when you dont use his projectiles. Mewtwo at least has a powerful option in a disadvantage state while many characters have nothing. Overall, hes fine.
Those miiverse pics of his missing hitboxes are outdated and deliberately fudged to exaggerate the truth. They were all caused by mewtwo or the opponent falling out of the attacks range during its animation. Just because there is a hitbox trail, doesnt mean there should be a hitbox there. Its insane to think that after his tail swipes, if you are in the trail of it, you should be hurt.
No sword users have hitboxes that lag behind the attack in a trail, why should mewtwos? If there was no trail whatsoever, you wouldnt be complaining about anything. Seriously, those attacks missed and thats all there is to it. I'm not about to take screenshots of someone falling into marth the frame after he fsmashed and claim that theres a missing hitbox, the attack simply missed.
Reading about Doc earlier, just going to put it out there now: His airspeed is far from the issue. It's below average but it's competent enough I think overall (with a Bair like his that's what we call a proper balance check)
His ground speed is inexcusable however. If it was like, Luigi's or something he'd be good, but he's gimped because of his grounded movement IMO. It just hurts what would be a largely good/decently usable character because his ground speed is so pathetic.
Let's agree to disagree. DK is one of the heaviest characters in the game and Mewtwo is one of the lightest. Jab-> disable at 80? Fine. IF you can get close enough to jab and DK isn't in the air. But DK has options.
Up tilt, Dsmash, Giant punch, Back air, Up air... all with giant hitboxes.
Not sure who's DK you're fighting but if they're getting jabbed by mewtwo and killled at 80 for it then they aren't playing DK right at all. Spacing is everything.
@RayNoire
Your first pic is irrelevant since he has clearly been hit. It was the same in brawl http://imgur.com/uA5pNag,41I5T7G Theres two images there btw. When you get hit by an attack your character will flinch backwards and on the first few frames after being hit it looks like the attack hit you from a freakin mile away.
And you didnt really address my points. When I said he has a bad disadvantage state, I said so do many characters when you compare everyone to sheik. I think his is fine with shadowball. If you dont have shadowball then hes in trouble, and you should have one.
Its no different to claiming a character like villager has a bad camp game when you dont use his projectiles. Mewtwo at least has a powerful option in a disadvantage state while many characters have nothing. Overall, hes fine.
Those miiverse pics of his missing hitboxes are outdated and deliberately fudged to exaggerate the truth. They were all caused by mewtwo or the opponent falling out of the attacks range during its animation. Just because there is a hitbox trail, doesnt mean there should be a hitbox there. Its insane to think that after his tail swipes, if you are in the trail of it, you should be hurt.
No sword users have hitboxes that lag behind the attack in a trail, why should mewtwos? If there was no trail whatsoever, you wouldnt be complaining about anything. Seriously, those attacks missed and thats all there is to it. I'm not about to take screenshots of someone falling into marth the frame after he fsmashed and claim that theres a missing hitbox, the attack simply missed.
Let's agree to disagree. DK is one of the heaviest characters in the game and Mewtwo is one of the lightest. Jab-> disable at 80? Fine. IF you can get close enough to jab and DK isn't in the air. But DK has options.
Up tilt, Dsmash, Giant punch, Back air, Up air... all with giant hitboxes.
Not sure who's DK you're fighting but if they're getting jabbed by mewtwo and killled at 80 for it then they aren't playing DK right at all. Spacing is everything.
We can land Disable in a lot of different ways too. (Landing traps, tech chases, etc.) It's transcendent and goes decently far. But yeah, we'll agree to disagree since I'm not super-sure on this MU.
I mean..."bad" is relative. Someone's got to be bad.
Mewtwo's frame data is a weakness. His moves are slower than average. So yeah, it's bad. Especially for a character with almost no disjoint (not even Usmash is meaningfully disjointed).
In terms of just hit frames, Mewtwo's frame data is not bad; it's average at worse. Bad would be Shulk, Greninja, and I'm pretty sure Triple D, Bowser, and Ganondorf - thank his Utilt for destroying his average hit frames - are among the worst. In terms of damage output, it's Sheik, in terms of range, it's someone like Meta Knight despite him having a disjoint - not really sure about this one and Wii Fit Trainer being tall helps with this, in terms of knockback, it's probably Sheik, and in terms of mobility, well, Sonic wins in ground speed, Yoshi wins in air speed, and Greninja or ZSS wins overall. Collectively, bad is something like er... Triple D's? Sure, he's got range, but he hits really slow, moves really slow, and sometimes, he doesn't even feel as strong as Ganondorf or Ike. Collectively, Mewtwo's frame data isn't bad when you factor everything in.
Note: Falco's going to be the dummy for all of these comparisons since he's a fast hitter. Mewtwo's frame data isn't that bad. His moves are average in speed. When I put hit frames for the Falco MU discussions, they're there to stop things like, "Rosalina hits faster than Zelda", but does that really matter? In some ways, yes. At close range, Falco will have an upper hand on Mewtwo, but Mewtwo will slap Falco out when Falco is outrange which is... pretty much the entire time as Falco has no moves other than his Specials that compete with or outrange Mewtwo except against Mewtwo's Nair and perhaps jab. Falco's frame 2 jab isn't going to do jack when Mewtwo sweeps his tail with Dtilt. Nair does nothing when Mewtwo can swipe and kill with Fair. The shortest range Mewtwo has are Down Smash, Nair, grabs, Confusion, and Disable. Everything else is pretty decent or long.
Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|6-6, (infinite), (finisher)
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|10-11 or 12-20
Ftilt|6-8|10-12 or 10-11 (angled)
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|8-8 or 9-13
Dtilt|7-9|6-7
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|19-21
Up Smash|8-12, 12-21|9-9, 14-15, 18-19, 22-23, 26-27, 30-31, 34-35
Down Smash|7-9|21-22
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|7-8, 11-12, 15-16, 19-20, 23-24, 27-28, 31-32, 35-36, 39-40
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|7-8
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|13-17
Uair|7-11|10-14
Dair|16-19 or 20-30|15-16
Grab|8-9|7-8
Dash Grab|10-11|9-10
Pivot Grab|11-12|10-11
Captain Falcon is actually below average in hit speed since other than jab, he hits at average or pretty below average-speed with slow Smashes for a melee-range fighter and average speed aerials. Does not matter much when his jab is ridiculous, he hits hard, and he has random disjoints on rapid jab finisher, dash attack, and Side Smash. Captain Falcon also being fast in the air and ground also helps since his dash grab is just wacky. The Capt. having average hit speed helps since it he was as fast as Fox, Mario, or Sheik, he'd be a monster with that kind of mobility, strength, and hit speed.
Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|3-5, 12-14, 22-23 (Gentleman)
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|7-9 or 10-16
Ftilt|6-8|9-11
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|17-20
Dtilt|7-9|11-12
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|19-22
Up Smash|8-12, 12-21|22-22, 28-28
Down Smash|7-9|19-20, 29-30
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|7-8, 20-21
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|14-14 or 15-30
Bair|4-5 or 6-11|10-11 or 12-15
Uair|7-11|6-10 or 11-12
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|16-18
Grab|8-9|7-8
Dash Grab|10-11|9-10
Pivot Grab|11-12|12-13
Falco gets **** on by Shulk because Shulk outranges Falco horribly. Shulk being faster even without his Monado Arts makes it even worse. Monado Arts just makes Falco look bad when he loses his title of highest jump, he loses his title of being a hard hitter since Shield negates that while Smash and Buster makes Falco look weak, and Speed just makes it even worse for Falco since he's already slower than Shulk without Monado Arts. Fast hits don't mean anything when you can't even hit your target. How does Falco get in? Blaster's useless when Shulk can use Speed or Jump and soar over while putting out a lingering hitbox and start comboing him. Reflector getting baited out is just hilarious when Shulk can run in and run out then hit him at range.
Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|5-6, 15-17, 33-32 or 34-34
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|15-16
Ftilt|6-8|12-13
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|11-23 or 13-23
Dtilt|7-9|10-11
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|14-15 (normal) or 14-16 (angled) , 23-24
Up Smash|8-12, 12-21|18-33 (Monado Slam and Beam) or 18-21 (Monado Beam-only)
Down Smash|7-9|18-19, 23-24, 28-29, 35-36, 41-42
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|13-30
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|14-18
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|18-22 or 21-22
Uair|7-11|14-15, 24-25
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|14-15 or 23-24
Grab|8-9|7-8
Dash Grab|10-11|9-10
Pivot Grab|11-12|10-11
Or how about this close frame data? Bear in mind that because of the patch, Falco actually has about 2? frames less landing lag than Fox and his aerial hit frames are now about 1-2 frame on average slower than Fox's. Well, why is Falco just worse than Fox in terms of MU despite being stronger than Fox, hitting about the same speed than Fox, having a better edgeguard game, and having a better throw game? Fox is much, much faster on the ground, slightly faster in the air, Fox's grab game is better which allows him to use throws for positioning better, and Fox has lots of kill confirms which Falco lacks. Oh, and Fox's Blaster is usable unlike Falco's which is "functioning". Should I mention how Fox's recovery actually works or that their recoveries launch at similar frames, but Falco's not only travels less, but has shoddy hitboxes? Or the fact that Fox's fall speed lets him survive just mere digits away from Falco despite Falco weighing 3 units more? Oh wait, that's right, Fox falls 0.25 units faster than Falco which more or less makes Fox and Falco's weight differences negligible.
Move Hit Frames||
Jab|2-4, 10-12, 17-21, 22-26, 27-31, 32-36, (infinite), 41-42|2, 7-8, ?, (infinite), ?
Dash Attack|8-11 or 12-19|4-7 or 8-15
Ftilt|6-8|6-8
Utilt|5-9, 12-16|3-5 or 6-7
Dtilt|7-9|7-9
Side Smash|17-19 or 20-20|13-15 or 16-18
Up Smash|8-12, 12-21|8-9 or 10-11
Down Smash|7-9|6-7
Nair|3-5, 6-9, 14-17, 21-24|4-6 or 7-25
Fair|10-13, 14-17, 18-21, 22-25, 26-27, 28-29|7-8, 13-14, 19-20, 26-27, 32-33
Bair|4-5 or 6-12|9-11
Uair|7-11|9-10, 12-13
Dair|16-19 or 20-31|5-6, 8-9, 11-12, 14-15, 17-18, 20-21, 23-23
Grab|8-9|6-7
Dash Grab|10-11|10-11
Pivot Grab|11-12|11-12
Being a lightweight with poor aerial range, horrible horizontal mobility, and being a fairly good hurtbox makes Falco's life that much more difficult than Kirby and Mr. Game & Watch who are both short with Mr. G&W having disjoints for his entire moveset, Luigi who has a useful projectile to help his slow movement, Robin who has strong disjoints, usable projectiles, and weighs decently, or Ganondorf who just tanks hits while having good range thanks to his height. Mewtwo moves quicker than Falco, jumps fairly high, outranges Falco, has a good and useful projectile - the reward Falco gets from using Blaster are 3%, hitstun while dealing with heavy end lag, and a chance to gimp while Mewtwo can wreck shields, kill, and recover with Shadow Ball -, and has a reliable kill throw unlike Falco where you basically gamble with your opponent being an idiot who can't DI. Cons to Mewtwo? He's lighter than Falco, he's not a fast faller so his weight doesn't get "countered" for vertical kills, he has a larger hurtbox, and he has an average frame data. Of those 4 cons, average frame data is the least of Mewtwo's problems. Freaking Palutena and Zelda get away with like 3 freaking moves and they do fine, well, customs and even default Palutena. Don't know about Zelda, but Melee Zelda got away with Down Smash, Fair/Bair, and air dodge. Oh, and there's Lucario with his hit lag on everything and he does fine.
It's not consistent, though, which would be helpful if Dr. Mario just wants to land the strong hitbox at all times instead of dealing with 3 different hitboxes with the middle being the strongest.
Ffamran
Yeah, WI is low-tier Bizarro-World. We do have some Villagers and Rosas around though. And maybe a Tink? I seem to recall seeing one once.
