Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Macchiato]

Plenty. There were only around 20 characters in the top 32 iirc. And some were not used at all even in pools.

I meant the starting pools.

There was

starting pools
quarter final pools
semi final pools
bracket

I don't think a made it

 

[Minordeth]

Love this idea. And I don't say that lightly because I usually roll my eyes at any sort of "alternative tier list" post because most of them are stupid and over-complicated. But this makes a lot of sense. Rather than bickering over how X character should be higher because "they're sleepers" or "they are better than their results suggest" you're saying right, these characters have good results, these characters SHOULD have good results, these characters are lacking. 3 clear groups.

Minor nitpick but I don't think Customs-off Palutena has done anything results-wise? I could be wrong, but if I'm right she should be in the same group as Doc and such. Customs-on Palutena has results but her theory is pretty good.

It really should be three combined brackets of Good/Mixed/Poor Theory and Results. I wanted to get the proof of concept up, however, and three brackets required more research than I was prepared to do before bed. Thanks, though!

Also, RE: Palutena, the real reason she is in that bracket is two fold - I wanted a representative of the Good Results+Poor Theory, and Palutena has probably the widest discrepancy in brackets between her customs on and off metas. Customs-off Palutena would be in the Poor/Poor category otherwise, or Poor/Mixed at best. I decided to combine her customs on/off identities to fit my own use, so it's an intentionally dishonest flub.

 

[Yikarur]

Sheik : Diddy is even.
I'm confident Ramin would beat Zero in Sheik mirrors and Zero probably knew that.
Rosalina is still overrated. Dabuz still the only notable Rosalina by far.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Could someone elaborate why the Sheik ZSS MU is supposed to be anything near even?
On the ZSS boards it's pretty much agreed that Sheik is her second worst MU right after Pikachu.
I don't get her sudden praise just because a single top level player has a black magic grab game.

 

[Macchiato]

I hope people realize that without customs, WiiFit is still usable. Look at JohnNumbers. He only used one custom, and he didn't even abuse it much.

 

[Vipermoon]

Sheik definitely beats Diddy. This MU used to be even or arguably Sheik always won. Sheik no doubt wins now. ZeRo won because ZeRo, he didn't have an even MU. Not once was he gimped and ZeRo was free to land using obvious peanut cancels. Mr. R didn't seem to take advantage of his MU advantages almost like he was expecting to fight Sheik and didn't really prepare for Diddy.

 

[Macedonian]

Sheik : Diddy is even.
I'm confident Ramin would beat Zero in Sheik mirrors and Zero probably knew that.
Rosalina is still overrated. Dabuz still the only notable Rosalina by far.

Yea I don't see how you have any basis for this claim. We only saw a non threatened zero who was doing a non mirror for the crowd. Zero has been very comunity minded player, And wants to put on a good show for the community. If he was threatened at all he probably would of went back to shiek

 

[David Viran]

Could someone elaborate why the Sheik ZSS MU is supposed to be anything near even?
On the ZSS boards it's pretty much agreed that Sheik is her second worst MU right after Pikachu.
I don't get her sudden praise just because a single top level player has a black magic grab game.

Well it depends on how bad the worst MU really is. Alot of people seem to overrate how bad zss loses to pika.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I hope people realize that without customs, WiiFit is still usable. Look at JohnNumbers. He only used one custom, and he didn't even abuse it much.

Really? He usually goes with the Enriched Sun Salutation/Weighted Header/Jumbo Hoops combo. Unless I missed a memo somewhere.

 

[Macchiato]

It's kinda funny when people say WiiFit is bottom tier because she can't hit short people. Then they realize ZSS struggles with that too.

 

[Vipermoon]

Oh and I went through ZeRo's recent tweets, not once did he say he's moving to Melee. I know he said this many months ago but NOW the only tweet regarding the future is talking about going back to Twitch and improving with Youtube.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Good Results + Good Theory

Good Results + Mixed Theory

Good Results + Poor Theory

Few Results + Good Theory

Few Results + Mixed Theory

Few Results + Poor Theory

You have a pretty generous definition of "good results" :3

I like the approach though. Here's my take on it:

[collapse=""]
Good in Theory + Good Results:
Good Theory + Mixed results:
Good Theory + Bad/Few Results:

Mixed Theory + Good Results:
Mixed Theory + Mixed Results:
Mixed Theory + Bad/Few Results:

Poor Theory + Good Results:
Poor Theory + Mixed Results:
Poor Theory + Bad/Few Results: [/collapse]

* Blue = Results and theory match
* Yellow = Results and theory are slightly off
* Red = Results and theory are totally off

 

[A_Kae]

Oh and I went through ZeRo's tweets, not once did he say he's moving to Melee. I know he said this many months ago but NOW the only tweet regarding the future is talking about going back to Twitch and improving with Youtube.

https://twitter.com/ZeRoSSB/status/568571691804315649

I wonder if he'll actually do it, though.

 

[Macchiato]

Really? He usually goes with the Enriched Sun Salutation/Weighted Header/Jumbo Hoops combo. Unless I missed a memo somewhere.

1121
1321
He used those two sets

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It occurs to me that @ Minordeth 's setup could be easily converted into a table, or possibly even a scatter plot (not likely given the precision necessary for that). Would be an interesting visual representation.

 

[Luigi player]

is widely perceived as the best character in the game atm, so her meta is advancing far ahead the rest. she's not far ahead anyone else, it just seems that way because her meta is far ahead. not to mention she has rep out the ***(zero, mr. r, nietono, rain are all some of the best players on the planet)
also has the benefit of being widely regarded as one of the best characters with one of the best players driving her metagame ahead full steam(nairo, choco too), so her results are naturally inflated.
ditto above.

and the only real gap that i see is >everyone else...because she is the best character in the game and has the most rep, and the more rep you have the more players can make it to top 8.

now i ask you this: if there's hardly any good rep for an otherwise good character(think ), can you reasonably expect that character to have results that can match up to or the like?

There's a reason they use Sheik. If they didn't they might've (probably) had worse results. That should be obvious since Sheik is the best character. You've seen what happened to Diddy mains after the nerf, after Diddy had dominated tourneyresults... he fell off by a lot. People will drop off with worse characters, because of the limitations they give if they're worse.
Especially if they used Wario [from your example] (keep in mind Abadango won one set with Wario - the one against Dabuz - that doesn't have to mean Wario will do great against every character, even if most top players try to main him). Though it seems that Wario does get a nice boost from his custom bike, since it's so fast and safe.

It seems like Diddy vs Sheik is almost even. But sadly I have to say Mr Rs performance in the MU wasn't all that great. Pretty sure Zero switched to Diddy because he almost lost to Vinnie in the crew battle in the Sheik ditto and wasn't that confident in the MU so he wanted to try Diddy.

Could someone elaborate why the Sheik ZSS MU is supposed to be anything near even?
On the ZSS boards it's pretty much agreed that Sheik is her second worst MU right after Pikachu.
I don't get her sudden praise just because a single top level player has a black magic grab game.

That's not really surprising and sounds pretty logical to me. It would make sense that Sheik is the worst MU (or one of them) for many if not all characters, since she's the best character in the game. Makes totally sense, right? So that's the same for many characters, and ZSS would still be ahead, because of her attributes that make her a great character. Though that doesn't mean the MU is even or something.

 

[Vipermoon]

https://twitter.com/ZeRoSSB/status/568571691804315649

I wonder if he'll actually do it, though.

Yeah and this is February. But at this point is he going to do it? He hasn't recently said so so we'll just wait.

 

[Minordeth]

You have a pretty generous definition of "good results" :3

I like the approach though. Here's my take on it:
[/snip]
* Blue = Results and theory match
* Yellow = Results and theory are slightly off
* Red = Results and theory are totally off

I used the character rankings and my poor memory. Admittedly, quite a few "Good Theory" characters could also be mixed, but I was generous, due to the recent patch.

The idea is that the lack of results should spur on players to either prove that their characters with good theory can get results, or prove that their Mixed or theory Poor characters can get results and stimulate good theory, which in turn should open up a wider base of consideration, and hopefully advance metas more than a straight-guess tier list. The idea is positive reinforcement among members of the community at large, and a more useful gauge of viability of any given point in time.

It occurs to me that @ Minordeth 's setup could be easily converted into a table, or possibly even a scatter plot (not likely given the precision necessary for that). Would be an interesting visual representation.

Coincidentally, it was a table. I love Excel and SPSS, so go figure.

 

[Dpete]

You have a pretty generous definition of "good results" :3

I like the approach though. Here's my take on it:

[collapse=""]
Good in Theory + Good Results:
Good Theory + Mixed results:
Good Theory + Bad/Few Results:

Mixed Theory + Good Results:
Mixed Theory + Mixed Results:
Mixed Theory + Bad/Few Results:

Poor Theory + Good Results:
Poor Theory + Mixed Results:
Poor Theory + Bad/Few Results: [/collapse]

* Blue = Results and theory match
* Yellow = Results and theory are slightly off
* Red = Results and theory are totally off

Looks good. Curious to your thoughts on DHD. Perhaps I'm overlooking some results, but I feel like he should be in the Mixed/Mixed group.

Also, how does everyone feel about Olimar? If Pit is considered to have Good Theory, I have a hard time saying Olimar is Mixed Theory.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Pre 1.0.4: Diddy beats Sheik hard
Pre EVO: Sheik beats Diddy hard
Now: Well actually it's even.

Guys. Diddy didn't beat Mr R's Sheik. ZERO beat Mr. R. There is a difference.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It occurs to me that @ Minordeth 's setup could be easily converted into a table, or possibly even a scatter plot (not likely given the precision necessary for that). Would be an interesting visual representation.

Just tried it with the SWF table coding. Looks ****ing ugly -.-

 

[Minordeth]

I should have said "Potential" rather than theory, because it fits with "Results" more intuitively.

As for Olimar, I personally put him in the "Mixed" category because he is generally chosen as a secondary or counterpick, rather than a main on his own. I'm not sure of his perceived utility as a main. I realize Nairo uses Pit as a counterpick, but there are other players that use him solely as a main (Earth, and to a lesser extent Pink Fresh, among others) with good results. Pit has good frame data and buttons to bolster his theory but opinions on Olimar seem more varied, probably due to lack of exposure in the spotlight.

 

[Locke 06]

It's a fun time to be a tourney Mega Man. After a strong showing at APEX (4 mains and a secondary clearing pools), the results just have not been there. Seibrik revived his Mega for EVO only to have it be rusty, since he doesn't play Mega in FL tournaments much at all. (An assumption. Also haven't watched the match, but heard from others I trust about it).

There's still a lot of work to be done on the character, but having the most common tourney character as a possible counter puts you at a bit of a disadvantage from a tourney goer standpoint.

Its cause Megaman is just all around really difficult to play at a high level and requires the most precise play possible. Like he's probably the hardest newcomer to use at a high level due to him having alot of limited options compared to someone like Pac Man. Megaman's customs are actually pretty good and fix his issues sometimes but they're not enough to completely fix it and they're not something incredibly strong like HSB or Wind Clyone.

To honest even if Megaman was at his most optimal level of play he would still be middle of the road at best cause some characters are just flat out better with their options.

Also Megaman is not ****ing better than or on the same level as MK,Luigi,Greninja and Pacman lol

Having limited options doesn't make you hard to use or learn.

Mega man's options are all amazing. Transcendent anti-airs in the lingering usmash, utilt, and UAir. Projectile spike in DAir, disjointed FAir and godly air-air f4 BAir. Kill throw that can be setup with a projectile. F6 utilt killing around 80 on most of the cast (earlier with rage). F5 dtilt with a mobile hitbox.

In practice, your options are limited because everything he does is high committal. However, optimal Mega man doesn't miss punishes. This is where playing Mega at a high level is difficult. What holds back his punishes is safety. However, he is also one of the most safe characters with pellets and projectile pressure.

Mega is short and heavy? Can jump after up-B? Generates items? Has one of the best air mobilities in the game? Incredibly good grab range? Secretly benefits from rage a ton...

I'm obviously an optimist compared to most Mega's (maybe it's because I place well/win things when Cacogen isn't around), but it's weird to see theory Mega be disputed as good, when theory Mega has good MU's against and even MU's with among other things.

Spoiler: Mega vs the top 15 in my book

-2?
maybe -1
+/-0
maybe +1
maybe +2

The character right of the maybes are leaning closer to even rather than further advantage/disadvantage. And I'm probably being a little conservative on my optimism. Willing to explain any.

@ Shaya - Do you play the Aussie Mega much?/how do you feel about the MU? It's becoming a standard in Seattle. The ZSS (Disorient) and I talk about it and he wins by punishing my mistakes, but when I play well, he loses.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Fox beats Mega Man +1 or higher imo.

 

[FullMoon]

You have a pretty generous definition of "good results" :3

I like the approach though. Here's my take on it:

[collapse=""]
Good in Theory + Good Results:
Good Theory + Mixed results:
Good Theory + Bad/Few Results:

Mixed Theory + Good Results:
Mixed Theory + Mixed Results:
Mixed Theory + Bad/Few Results:

Poor Theory + Good Results:
Poor Theory + Mixed Results:
Poor Theory + Bad/Few Results: [/collapse]

* Blue = Results and theory match
* Yellow = Results and theory are slightly off
* Red = Results and theory are totally off

This lists actually looks really good, though has Duck Hunt really gotten that much results? It's kinda weird considering the character looks fairly underwhelming to me.

 

[Macchiato]

You have a pretty generous definition of "good results" :3

I like the approach though. Here's my take on it:

[collapse=""]
Good in Theory + Good Results:
Good Theory + Mixed results:
Good Theory + Bad/Few Results:

Mixed Theory + Good Results:
Mixed Theory + Mixed Results:
Mixed Theory + Bad/Few Results:

Poor Theory + Good Results:
Poor Theory + Mixed Results:
Poor Theory + Bad/Few Results: [/collapse]

* Blue = Results and theory match
* Yellow = Results and theory are slightly off
* Red = Results and theory are totally off

I think WiiFit would be in mixed theory and mixed results.

 

[Appledees]

I honestly don't see how Megaman beats ZSS,Sonic that well along with Mario.

My only Yoshi experience is on wifi which is not the best way to judge the mathcup at all but like I can't really see it as a bad matchup with Megaman. At worst its like 55-45 in Yoshi favor but Yoshi seems very manageable compared to someone like MK. Surprised you think Megaman and Fox is even. I'm curious to hear your reasoning with these characters.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Duck Hunt has really good and consistent results though MVD and Fow dropping the character will hurt him in the long run. There's still people like DunnoBro and TwoMix who place well with him and most notably there's Brood who has better and more consistent results in Japan than a lot of players that get more hype than him [including amsa and abadango].

 

[Firefoxx]

Sheik definitely beats Diddy. This MU used to be even or arguably Sheik always won. Sheik no doubt wins now. ZeRo won because ZeRo, he didn't have an even MU. Not once was he gimped and ZeRo was free to land using obvious peanut cancels. Mr. R didn't seem to take advantage of his MU advantages almost like he was expecting to fight Sheik and didn't really prepare for Diddy.

I mean, everyone who has played this game at a high level (or any level really) for any length of time should know the Diddy matchup very very well. Sheik is not some unstoppable god who wins every MU by a lot and Diddy has shown throughout this games lifespan to do quite well against her. Nerfs or not, he has the tools.

You can't say "ZeRo won because ZeRo" and then put his whole victory on Mr. R missing punishes. ZeRo's peanut cancels were mixed up very well and spaced even better.

An no, before this most recent patch, this matchup was in Diddy's favor. Before 1.0.6 it was in his favor by quite a lot, before 1.0.8 he was slightly favored.

 

[Locke 06]

Fox beats Mega Man +1 or higher imo.

Yeah, that's one that I go back and forth with.

Mega edge guards him like Samus in Melee, kills early and has a strong usmash Oos with a ridiculous first hitbox that can punish cross up NAir, but it's mostly his punishes and Fox's forced meh approach.

Mega man punishes ZSS' grab harder than anyone else in the game while being short and outspacing her. Edit: the fact that she's tall is a very large part of that MU. Pellets for days.

Gotta run... But disjoints vs Mario along with forcing approach/limited ground approach. Mario wishes he had a FAir. What makes it even is Mario's ability to stay in for literally minutes. But how does Mario kill? Mega's not going to be dropping down on his big head. He doesn't air-ground. Sonic loses spindash mixups to pellets in neutral. Disjointed transcendent lingering f5 dtilt destroys it even further.

 

[Macchiato]

Yeah, that's one that I go back and forth with.

Mega edge guards him like Samus in Melee, kills early and has a strong usmash Oos with a ridiculous first hitbox that can punish cross up NAir, but it's mostly his punishes and Fox's forced meh approach.

Mega man punishes ZSS' grab harder than anyone else in the game while being short and outspacing her. Edit: the fact that she's tall is a very large part of that MU. Pellets for days.

Gotta run... But disjoints vs Mario along with forcing approach/limited ground approach. Mario wishes he had a FAir. What makes it even is Mario's ability to stay in for literally minutes. But how does Mario kill? Mega's not going to be dropping down on his big head. He doesn't air-ground. Sonic loses spindash mixups to pellets in neutral. Disjointed transcendent lingering f5 dtilt destroys it even further.

Hmmm so would wiifit having a short croach help her a lot

 

[bc1910]

I would say Greninja is in the "good theory, bad results" group even as the sole occupier. He has so much going for him in theory but none of it is really backed up. I think his results are generally worse than most of the characters in the mixed/mixed group but his theory is generally better (of course there are exceptions, for example I wouldn't say his theory is better than Pac-Man's yet he probably edges out Palutena in results).

Like, aMSa gets hyped up but he really hasn't done anything except place well at Apex, yet there's clearly so much you can do with a character that has the best overall mobility, a top 10 kill throw and fast damage racking. But you can argue either way, and it's a good list anyway.

EDIT: Link, too, I would argue has good theory and bad results after the recent patch. I think Link is super solid now. You can't afford to make mistakes against him really, his damage racking is just so good and killing has never been a problem for him, his kill power is even better now that he can hoo hah some characters. Link got a poor showing at EVO because the guy kept trying to do jab cancel combos but don't judge him on that, I don't think he showed even a fraction of Link's power.

 

[hypersonicJD]

I agree. That Link sucked balls. Greninja needs a better approach tecnique though. Not just run or just do a Water Shuriken. Maybe a Shadow Sneark ending lag reduced. I had trouble getting in with Greninja and was pretty vulnerable.

 

[FullMoon]

Of all moves you want Shadow Sneak to be used for approach? lol.

 

[C0rvus]

I dunno, Greninja has a few pretty good tools for neutral; great mobility on the ground and in the air, a long pivot, safe ftilt and fair pokes, a decent projectile, good dash grab, SH nair crossups, etc. He's just not as overwhelmingly strong in advantage or neutral as other characters with a similar design (Zero Suit, Sheik, etc.) Water Shuriken is rarely enough to force approaches, and baiting isn't very effective in this game imo. So he just has to work harder for less reward, why not just play ZSS or Sheik instead? They are easier and much more effective. That's why Greninja's not so popular. Thus, poor representation and results. I think he belongs at the top of mid, or around there. No real easy MUs but a lot of even-ish ones and some bad ones towards the top (Sheik, Pikachu and Sonic, maybe?).

 

[Yikarur]

No one with knowledge said that Sheik beats Diddy hard pre-evo. Results have already proven how wrong that statement is pre-evo .

 

[hypersonicJD]

Shadow Sneak could be a bait into shield and then a grab. Or maybe make Down Thrown into Fair. I don't know. Something better for Greninja.

 

[C0rvus]

Shadow Sneak could be a bait into shield and then a grab. Or maybe make Down Thrown into Fair. I don't know. Something better for Greninja.

Giving it such little lag to allow free grabs would make it a pretty broken tool. You can bait shield and grab opponents with empty movement anyway. Mix up SH aerials with empty hops to keep your opponent guessing.

 

[Locke 06]

Hmmm so would wiifit having a short croach help her a lot

Wii fit can crouch>ftilt in the same way Mega crouch>utilts since ftilt is a f4 kill move (lol). But wii fit doesn't force Zsam to do anything in midrange while Mega will constantly press his "neutral +" game against you.

Pellets beat doing nothing. And doing nothing is incredibly strong in this game. Lol @ bait and punish doesn't win.

 

[FullMoon]

Shadow Sneak could be a bait into shield and then a grab. Or maybe make Down Thrown into Fair. I don't know. Something better for Greninja.

Good luck baiting a shield when there's an obvious shadow that only goes forward to make it very clear where Greninja is going to pop up.