Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Wintermelon43]

There's something I wanted to touch upon now.

Would Greninja be considered top tier now even if he hadn't been nerfed?

I ask this because the only two big nerfs he got, Up-Smash and Water Shuriken, weren't that big and both moves are still really good. Up-Smash is decently fast disjoint with a lot of power behind it and Water Shuriken is still one of the fastest projectiles in the game with very good range. Greninja wasn't changed that much and yet most people claim that he went from Top to Mid.

His killing power is still really good, his punish game is also great and he's able to rack up damage really quickly as well. He's tied for best mobility in the game, has one of the best dash grabs, good range on his moves, top 5 recovery, a ridiculous amount of kill setups.

Most people also seem to dismiss Greninja based on frame data alone, but then again, we have Captain Falcon has a definite high tier character and his frame data is comparable to Greninja's. In fact, all of Falcon's grounded normals are slower than Greninja's with the exception of dash attack and F-Tilt (by a whopping 1 frame) and even the aerials are not that far apart (7/14/10/6/16 for Falcon and 12/16/5/7/17 for Greninja, order being N-Air/F-Air/B-Air/Up-Air/D-Air) so I think judging him only on frame data is being really close minded.

Sure, Falcon hits harder than Greninja and is also heavier, but Greninja has a much better recovery and slightly better aerial mobility, while also having the benefit of having a projectile to force approaches. I know the two characters aren't very comparable, but I felt it was worth mentioning this.

Greninja's main flaw lies only in his standing grab being so painfully slow that it gives him no good OoS option other than Jab, which is a really big problem but the thing is, that problem was there pre-1.0.4 too.

Just the way people's opinion of Greninja dropped after the patch even though he didn't get changed all that much makes me wonder if he really was as good as people made him out to be in the original release and would still be at top tier even if he wasn't changed at all.

No way. Nobody uses him, and for some reason people consider representation more important than the character itself

 

[Luco]

My personal belief is that would have settled down to not top 4 even if the nerfs hadn't have occurred. He'd probably even be where most of us think he is now, in high tier. Mayyyybbbbeeeeee pre-patch people might have made a case for bottom of top tier, and he might have had more representation which would have helped the progression of his meta.


Greninja might have been one of the unfortunate cases where the nerfs really hurt his representation, which in turn hurt how people viewed him more than anything else, come to think of it. The nerfs weren't anything real, but the placebo effect they created was huge.

 

[Reader]

No way. Nobody uses him, and for some reason people consider representation more important than the character itself

Representation is kind of irrelevant right now, because we're discussing a hypothetical situation. Maybe he would have more players, if he hadn't been nerfed.

Anyway, I feel that people overreacted to Greninjas nerfs, but was he truly a top tier before the nerfs? Maybe without the nerfs he could be a high tier character. I believe that the current Greninja resides somewhere in middle-high tier.

 

[TheAnomaly]

Representation is kind of irrelevant right now, because we're discussing a hypothetical situation. Maybe he would have more players, if he hadn't been nerfed.

Anyway, I feel that people overreacted to Greninjas nerfs, but was he truly a top tier before the nerfs? Maybe without the nerfs he could be a high tier character. I believe that the current Greninja resides somewhere in middle-high tier.

You clearly never played with/against release 3ds greninja. Definite top 5 character at worst.
Up smash comboed into itself at low %s and killed under 100%, up aerial kill around the same %, shuriken were basically lagless. Hydro Pump also had a rage inducing windbox(for some people although I personally never had an issue with it.).

 

[Man Li Gi]

Can we all admit that =? I mean, both had extremely polarizing playstyles that relied on grabs......on the lower tiers, but we're exposed in the higher tiers.

 

[FullMoon]

You clearly never played with/against release 3ds greninja. Definite top 5 character at worst.
Up smash comboed into itself at low %s and killed under 100%, up aerial kill around the same %, shuriken were basically lagless. Hydro Pump also had a rage inducing windbox(for some people although I personally never had an issue with it.).

Up-Smash still kills most characters under 100%, just saying. Up-Air can still get under 100% kills depending on where you catch the opponent.

 

[Pazx]

Greninja's biggest nerf was the removal of DACUS

~~~~~

EVO Top 32 - Results and Characters

Please discuss characters rather than EVO itself here.

Spoiler

Results with Characters
1st. ZeRo /
2nd. Mr R
3rd. Nairo
4th. Abadango //
5th. Dabuz /
5th. Ally /
7th. ESAM
7th. FOW
9th. Larry Lurr /
9th. Rain
9th. SS
9th. Static Manny
13th. False (maybe )
13th. DaPuffster
13th. Regi
13th. Mocha
17th. 8bitman
17th. John Numbers
17th. Tyrant
17th. MJG
17th. Angel Cortez
17th. Bloodcross /
17th. CaptAwesum
25th. Trevonte /
25th. Shaky
25th. Salem
25th. Mr. Con Con
25th. Falln
25th. Vinnie
25th. Christian Rendon (i think?)
25th. Tweek

x8
x3
x2
x1

Talking points:
Poor performances and representation from Luigi, which may be the story for him at large events.
Villager is ****ing good, but to me it does look optimal for him to stay on the ledge.
Ally's pre-patch Marth (not utilising buffs at all) makes current Marth look anti meta and good.
Diddy exists, both with and without Rocketbarrel Attack.
G&W?
Wario is sleeper top tier but seems to struggle against Sheik.
Optimal Sonic is campy Sonic. Sorry, 6WX fans.
Mii Brawler sux.
Florida is overrated

 

[Wintermelon43]

Wait, they did top 8 today? I THOUGHT THEY DID THAT TOMORROW!1!!!!! Will VGBootCamp upload evo 2015 top 8 on their channel, or wil I never get to see top 8?

 

[Wintropy]

Can we talk about Luigi? For all his pomp and vigour, I've yet to see him make waves at high-level events.

I have a friend who's getting into and is currently studying competitive Luigi. He seems convinced that, except for a few noteworthy scenarios in which Luigi is the dominant force of the match (read: any time he's within grab range), the character really struggles in a wider metagame context.

I get that Luigi has some great tools and can really put the pressure on if he gets the chance to, but is that really the crux of his gameplan - if he gets the chance to? I just wonder how sustainable that kinda play is in the grand scheme of things.

Is Luigi going to remain a consistent high-tier, or is he just a flash in the pan whose time has come and gone?

Seriously, I would really love insights into this. Colour me confused.

 

[Smog Frog]

i always felt he was overhyped. if i wanted to kill myself i would jump from how good people think he is to how good he actually is. no doubt he's in the top half of the cast, but at this point even top 10 feels like stretching it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Can we talk about Luigi? For all his pomp and vigour, I've yet to see him make waves at high-level events.

I have a friend who's getting into and is currently studying competitive Luigi. He seems convinced that, except for a few noteworthy scenarios in which Luigi is the dominant force of the match (read: any time he's within grab range), the character really struggles in a wider metagame context.

I get that Luigi has some great tools and can really put the pressure on if he gets the chance to, but is that really the crux of his gameplan - if he gets the chance to? I just wonder how sustainable that kinda play is in the grand scheme of things.

Is Luigi going to remain a consistent high-tier, or is he just a flash in the pan whose time has come and gone?

Seriously, I would really love insights into this. Colour me confused.

The phrase I've heard is that Luigi loses to good fundamentals. What this exactly entails is a bit unclear since it skates over the idea of "what if Luigi has good fundamentals too?" but it is true that he doesn't have anything special going for him mobility-wise, so it can be hard for him to catch up to and punish certain things. Especially since his low traction means a lot of stuff is safer than usual if he shields it.

 

[Speed Boost]

Can we talk about Luigi? For all his pomp and vigour, I've yet to see him make waves at high-level events.

I have a friend who's getting into and is currently studying competitive Luigi. He seems convinced that, except for a few noteworthy scenarios in which Luigi is the dominant force of the match (read: any time he's within grab range), the character really struggles in a wider metagame context.

I get that Luigi has some great tools and can really put the pressure on if he gets the chance to, but is that really the crux of his gameplan - if he gets the chance to? I just wonder how sustainable that kinda play is in the grand scheme of things.

Is Luigi going to remain a consistent high-tier, or is he just a flash in the pan whose time has come and gone?

Seriously, I would really love insights into this. Colour me confused.

Exactly, I really think Ness should be in that slot. Shaky and Fow have both shown he can stand on his own as a main against the best of the best, unlike Luigi.

 

[Smog Frog]

The phrase I've heard is that Luigi loses to good fundamentals. What this exactly entails is a bit unclear since it skates over the idea of "what if Luigi has good fundamentals too?" but it is true that he doesn't have anything special going for him mobility-wise, so it can be hard for him to catch up to and punish certain things. Especially since his low traction means a lot of stuff is safer than usual if he shields it.

it basically means loses to good movement and spacing since his own mobility and range are poor.

 

[TriTails]

I don't know how Luigi's combos are affected by her weight and floatiness, but he's probably going to be her best notable MU if she can get out of cyclone reliably.

If JIGGLYPUFF of all characters manage to get out of my Cyclone then I'd be asking myself what I am doing wrong. Extreme floatiness and extreme flyweight are THE. BEST. CONTENDERS. to get killed by Nado.

 

[Yonder]

Can we talk about Luigi? For all his pomp and vigour, I've yet to see him make waves at high-level events.

I have a friend who's getting into and is currently studying competitive Luigi. He seems convinced that, except for a few noteworthy scenarios in which Luigi is the dominant force of the match (read: any time he's within grab range), the character really struggles in a wider metagame context.

I get that Luigi has some great tools and can really put the pressure on if he gets the chance to, but is that really the crux of his gameplan - if he gets the chance to? I just wonder how sustainable that kinda play is in the grand scheme of things.

Is Luigi going to remain a consistent high-tier, or is he just a flash in the pan whose time has come and gone?

Seriously, I would really love insights into this. Colour me confused.

Imo, he can't go solo. He's more of an amazing counterpick to certain matchups like Diddy, Fox, maybe Pikachu. From what I've seen, speed is the most dominating meta game force. And at top levels it turns to quite the camp fest too. Luigi has no long range projectile or speed. So he will still remain high tier, but top won't last much longer I assume. As someone said on here, he really is kind of like Brawl DDD. And as noted by usage at EVO, looks like some of the "uber potential" characters like Shulk who was one of the VERY few characters to have no use] and 1 Peach that didn't make it anywhere haven't shown their colors yet. No Ike either for someone who's considered really, really good with all the new buffs. MK and Game and Watch made a great showing though, especially Game and Watch. Both off them have potential I believe.

 

[FullMoon]

If JIGGLYPUFF of all characters manage to get out of my Cyclone then I'd be asking myself what I am doing wrong. Extreme floatiness and extreme flyweight are THE. BEST. CONTENDERS. to get killed by Nado.

... Oh, somehow I mixed things up in my mind and I thought that floaties had an easier time getting out of cyclone.

Despite the fact that I consistently get out of cyclone with Greninja

Herp derp.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If JIGGLYPUFF of all characters manage to get out of my Cyclone then I'd be asking myself what I am doing wrong. Extreme floatiness and extreme flyweight are THE. BEST. CONTENDERS. to get killed by Nado.

That explains why I struggle to escape it with Rosalina, then.

 

[Dpete]

The lack of Yoshi at the top of Evo is not surprising, but the fact that top players continue to rate him so highly is. His neutral is among the worst of this threats list, his grab and throw game is terrible, and he has trouble killing. Don't get me wrong, he has some solid strengths: his mobility alone might be enough to keep him viable, plus his disadvantage state is among the best in the cast and he certainly can rack up damage. He just feels closer to the back half of this list than the ranking implies; I find it hard to believe he's a better character than Diddy.

 

[Wintropy]

it basically means loses to good movement and spacing since his own mobility and range are poor.

Explains why he struggled against my Pit.

I can get down with @ Speed Boost 's statement that Ness is top-tier. The more I see of that boy, the more I'm convinced he has the tools to make it very, very big.

The only thing that screws over Ness, to my mind, is the unreliable nature of PK Thunder. My brother told me once that, if you play Ness, you have to mentally prepare yourself for death every time you get knocked off-stage. Otherwise, his potential to just wall you out one minute and then go ham the next is just inspiring stuff.

 

[TriTails]

This Luigi talk made me think 'People are going rush downs with the plumber. How about his passive play?'. This idea sparked a while ago, when I was remembering Spinosaurus quote 'After I embrace the passive play' when talking about Wario, and I do wonder, what if Luigi don't go bum-rush on people, but instead wall them out with Fireballs and knocking them away with F-air/jab/whatever...? Because I cringe everytime Luigis try to approach Ike or Marth when in Fireballs range. Disjointed ACs keep Luigi out but what if I don't approach and instead fire Fireballs to your way... maybe, JUST MAYBE, Luigi has potential to be a camper by walling people out with walls of Fireballs.

Of course, this is JUST my idea. Nothing much, perhaps I'll lab it a bit, but I don't have much hopes in it. In fact, I'm 80% sure it'll fail.

 

[Yonder]

This Luigi talk made me think 'People are going rush downs with the plumber. How about his passive play?'. This idea sparked a while ago, when I was remembering Spinosaurus quote 'After I embrace the passive play' when talking about Wario, and I do wonder, what if Luigi don't go bum-rush on people, but instead wall them out with Fireballs and knocking them away with F-air/jab/whatever...? Because I cringe everytime Luigis try to approach Ike or Marth when in Fireballs range. Disjointed ACs keep Luigi out but what if I don't approach and instead fire Fireballs to your way... maybe, JUST MAYBE, Luigi has potential to be a camper by walling people out with walls of Fireballs.

Of course, this is JUST my idea. Nothing much, perhaps I'll lab it a bit, but I don't have much hopes in it. In fact, I'm 80% sure it'll fail.

I used this strategy for Luigi actually using basically only fair and fireballs at a tourney. It worked wonders against Diddy and Kirby [to the point where I had some unwarranted insults from the Kirby player] but it stopped short at Lucas who zoned me out with PK fires, zair, and magnet. So really, Luigi can zone, but it's just not effective against some characters, while others it works great. He certainly can't against Sheik.

 

[TriTails]

He certainly can't against Sheik.

That's my problem. No matter what strategy I choose, they always work against characters that he is already advantaged on but don't work on characters that he has disadvantage to.

Perhaps techs for Luigi has to be a bit different. People jab locks with jabs but we do it with Fireballs (With a projectile lol). People don't have chaingrabs (Sheik has one right?) but we have TWO of them.

I suppose mainstream techs won't work on Luigi. I'd be interested on what techs we can produce but I'm not seeing them will fix Luigi's mobility problems (Except for the PP).

 

[Wintropy]

This Luigi talk made me think 'People are going rush downs with the plumber. How about his passive play?'. This idea sparked a while ago, when I was remembering Spinosaurus quote 'After I embrace the passive play' when talking about Wario, and I do wonder, what if Luigi don't go bum-rush on people, but instead wall them out with Fireballs and knocking them away with F-air/jab/whatever...? Because I cringe everytime Luigis try to approach Ike or Marth when in Fireballs range. Disjointed ACs keep Luigi out but what if I don't approach and instead fire Fireballs to your way... maybe, JUST MAYBE, Luigi has potential to be a camper by walling people out with walls of Fireballs.

Of course, this is JUST my idea. Nothing much, perhaps I'll lab it a bit, but I don't have much hopes in it. In fact, I'm 80% sure it'll fail.

This is honestly the tactic I see most Luigis use. The issue there is that it risks turning into a flowchart that your opponent will easily read after about, y'know, two fireballs to the face.

When I play Pit versus Luigi, for example, I make sure he doesn't get comfy with his fireballs. I camp right back with arrows and aerials and make him go on the offensive. If I can get him to approach and get him to crack a sweat, he's skinny green putty in my fluffy wingéd hands~

I think Luigi has the potential to be a camper, yeah, though I wouldn't say it's a foolproof scheme. Inevitably some even better class of fool will come along and realise, well, if that's the best you can do, all I need to do is this and your whole dynamic crumbles.

I dunno, I'm really tired right now, I'm just saying that I've seen that strategy before and it works to a certain extent though no more beyond that.

 

[Yonder]

That's my problem. No matter what strategy I choose, they always work against characters that he is already advantaged on but don't work on characters that he has disadvantage to.

Perhaps techs for Luigi has to be a bit different. People jab locks with jabs but we do it with Fireballs (With a projectile lol). People don't have chaingrabs (Sheik has one right?) but we have TWO of them.

I suppose mainstream techs won't work on Luigi. I'd be interested on what techs we can produce but I'm not seeing them will fix Luigi's mobility problems (Except for the PP).

My mind keeps slipping about perfect pivots. I haven't seen any Luigis really utilize it [I can't on the 3ds lol] but Luigi's is the 2nd best in game and helps his range and traction somewhat. So for Luigi to stay relevant in the advancing Metagame where speed takes priority...he really should master perfect pivots [perfect shielding too but that goes for any characters]

 

[Speed Boost]

This is honestly the tactic I see most Luigis use. The issue there is that it risks turning into a flowchart that your opponent will easily read after about, y'know, two fireballs to the face.

When I play Pit versus Luigi, for example, I make sure he doesn't get comfy with his fireballs. I camp right back with arrows and aerials and make him go on the offensive. If I can get him to approach and get him to crack a sweat, he's skinny green putty in my fluffy wingéd hands~

I think Luigi has the potential to be a camper, yeah, though I wouldn't say it's a foolproof scheme. Inevitably some even better class of fool will come along and realise, well, if that's the best you can do, all I need to do is this and your whole dynamic crumbles.

I dunno, I'm really tired right now, I'm just saying that I've seen that strategy before and it works to a certain extent though no more beyond that.

Yeah, Luigi gets out camped by many of the top tiers. His fireballs are such short range projectiles he wants to live in that medium range. It's gonna be hard for him to play campy against Sheik because of the range and speed of her needles forces Luigi to approach. Rosalina has Luma and Gravitational Pull. Pikachu has Quick Attack to bipass the neutral. Ness can absorb the fireballs with down B. Mario can cape them. ZSS can punish a spammy Luigi with down B. Fox can Shine and out range with Lasers. Not sure about Sonic though.

 

[Yonder]

Yeah, Luigi gets out camped by many of the top tiers. His fireballs are such short range projectiles he wants to live in that medium range. It's gonna be hard for him to play campy against Sheik because of the range and speed of her needles forces Luigi to approach. Rosalina has Luma and Gravitational Pull. Pikachu has Quick Attack to bipass the neutral. Ness can absorb the fireballs with down B. Mario can cape them. ZSS can punish a spammy Luigi with down B. Fox can Shine and out range with Lasers. Not sure about Sonic though.

To be fair though, Luigi can crawl under lasers though done right and Luigi is a great matchup against Fox, 60:40. Sonic gets hurt by fireballs regarding his spindashes but can punish due to his dash speed if Luigi whiffs. Actually, speaking of Mario I think Luigi has the advantage against him too 55:45. So that's another reason Luigi will have some sort of relavence in the tourney scene if Mario becomes more prominent. But no one asides from Ally really uses Mario to a competant level though. In all honestly Luigi can hold his own against the top tiers except Sheik and probably Rosalina. Luigi and actually captain Falcon kind of seem like easy to pick up and do well with characters but don't make it that far either.

 

[C0rvus]

Yeah, Luigi gets out camped by many of the top tiers. His fireballs are such short range projectiles he wants to live in that medium range. It's gonna be hard for him to play campy against Sheik because of the range and speed of her needles forces Luigi to approach. Rosalina has Luma and Gravitational Pull. Pikachu has Quick Attack to bipass the neutral. Ness can absorb the fireballs with down B. Mario can cape them. ZSS can punish a spammy Luigi with down B. Fox can Shine and out range with Lasers. Not sure about Sonic though.

Sonic can out camp anyone by just running away. How he maintains the percent lead against Luigi, I don't know.

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Greninja's biggest nerf was the removal of DACUS

~~~~~

EVO Top 32 - Results and Characters

Please discuss characters rather than EVO itself here.

Spoiler

Results with Characters
1st. ZeRo /
2nd. Mr R
3rd. Nairo
4th. Abadango //
5th. Dabuz /
5th. Ally /
7th. ESAM
7th. FOW
9th. Larry Lurr /
9th. Rain
9th. SS
9th. Static Manny
13th. False (maybe )
13th. DaPuffster
13th. Regi
13th. Mocha
17th. 8bitman
17th. John Numbers
17th. Salem/Tyrant (lol double DQ)
17th. MJG
17th. Angel Cortez
17th. Bloodcross /
17th. CaptAwesum
25th. Trevonte /
25th. Shaky
25th. Salem/Tyrant (both DQ'd)
25th. Mr. Con Con
25th. Falln
25th. Vinnie
25th. Christian Rendon (i think?)
25th. Tweek

x8
x3
x2
x1

Talking points:
Poor performances and representation from Luigi, which may be the story for him at large events.
Villager is ****ing good, but to me it does look optimal for him to stay on the ledge.
Ally's pre-patch Marth (not utilising buffs at all) makes current Marth look anti meta and good.
Diddy exists, both with and without Rocketbarrel Attack.
G&W?
Wario is sleeper top tier but seems to struggle against Sheik.
Optimal Sonic is campy Sonic. Sorry, 6WX fans.
Mii Brawler sux.
Florida is overrated

I don't really think a character that was used 1 match and still lost should be next to the player's name. For example Ally going against Mr. R only to lose. Of course if the results post was meant to show character viability, then I definitely think that Marth should be removed from Ally or any 1 time use character (especially if they loss using that character) as it can lead to confusion for people thinking a person succeeded by using this Character . It's misleading in a way considering he got top 8 solely by using and not

 

[Firefoxx]

I don't really think a character that was used 1 match and still lost should be next to the player's name. For example Ally going against Mr. R only to lose. Of course if the results post was meant to show character viability, then I definitely think that Marth should be removed from Ally or any 1 time use character (especially if they loss using that character) as it can lead to confusion for people thinking a person succeeded by using this Character . It's misleading in a way considering he got top 8 solely by using and not

Personally I want to see every character a player used. Win or lose, they believed in that character enough to pull them out in tournament, and that counts for something.

But given how Smashboards rankings system works, It really should only be the character (or characters) they used primarily to get where they got in bracket. This giving Marth a top 8 placing at a major would be truly misleading.

 

[RonNewcomb]

You're not. The notion that DK counters Sheik is nothing short of absurd (have we even seen this matchup at Evo?).

We saw a Wind Kong beat a Sheik in pools on Friday.

 

[Blobface]

The [11] Perceived Weakest (ordered alphabetically)

​

The [11] Perceived Weakest (ordered alphabetically)

​

Man, as great as EVO was this year, the lack of Ganon representation makes me cry.

...I mean, it's all part of our plan to take EVO 2016!​

 

[Locke 06]

The [15] Greatest Threats (ordered by mean)

​

Notable (unordered): []

The [11] Perceived Weakest (ordered alphabetically)

​

Result Synopsis
The top eleven characters in voting were virtually static, even in placement order... Opinions for those after strayed greatly with eight frequently tallied but when scaled by frequency were far from the aforementioned eleven. Twenty-nine different characters were seen in the upper votes.


Unlike the top part, no characters were unanimously listed and although fielding a third less input still had a range of 27 characters.

Some interesting things that haven't been touched upon yet. The idea of a static 11 is really cool to see from the top players across regions. Likewise, the idea of a non-recurring bottom 11 is also really interesting, when the CCI thread and most metagame labcoats have agreed on a few characters to be at the bottom (I have my suspicions about why some characters were not unanimous) However, the most interesting thing to come out of this, for me, is the idea that 18 characters may have a claim to spots 11-15. This speaks volumes about the nature of the blob that is "high-mid" or "low-high" tier. Is it that there that much of a drop off after the static 11 in terms of being a tournament threat? Is it that there are some dark horses waiting for some representation? Or is it that there are great players that play these high-mid characters on the cusp of breaking out.

In any case, I enjoyed seeing the results of this exercise, Shaya. Well done.

Five characters appeared in both high and bottom while only four characters were never counted. Excluding outliers Ike, Kirby and Mii Brawler exist on both sides whilst there weren't any particular indications towards Bowser, Bowser Jr, Duck Hunt, Falco, Lucas, Megaman, Pacman or Shulk.

Can you clarify this statement, Shaya? You say 5 characters appeared both in high & bottom, but only say Ike, Kirby, and Brawler exist on both sides. Then you go on to list 8 characters that don't have "any particular indications towards" when I was expecting to know the 4 characters that were never counted.

Who are the other 2 that were on both sides, what is the list of 4 who were never counted, and what is this list of 8 characters you've listed?

 

[Nobie]

If we're using Ally's Marth as a judgment as to whether Marth is viable, I think he actually did show the character's potential even if he did lose in the end.

First, let's remember how he ended up losing: he landed on a charged Sheik up-smash. That was mainly a player error, probably from over-thinking the situation or having a momentary lapse in judgment. Marth is certainly quick enough in the air that it normally shouldn't happen. Ally's of course super good, but everyone makes mistakes.

Second, before that it looked like Ally's Marth was a mistake... until he landed a tipper f-smash and killed Sheik at 55%. Then he actually closed the life gap to a mere 1% difference before eating that unfortunate up-smash. That is kind of crazy, no? Against Sheik who often takes longer to kill, fighting against Marth who specializes in low percent kills, Ally's Marth could have taken that game.

 

[Shaya]

@ Locke 06
Reworded it:
Five characters appeared in both high and bottom lists; excluding outliers the three notable were Ike, Kirby and Mii Brawler. Only four characters did not appear in any list, but again excluding outliers the characters with no particular indications were Bowser, Bowser Jr, Duck Hunt, Falco, Lucas, Megaman, Pacman and Shulk.

--

Basically, short of a few single instances those were the characters appearing both high/bottom and "not at all".
Some gave me more "personal" lists than others, reflecting likely their thoughts about their main versus them. I didn't say this was wrong, but if everyone gave me something like this we'd be having an interesting/different conversation about it [it would probably be more like an awful 'pseudo match up potency chart thingie' more than 'pseudo tier list']. A few people I queried genuinely wanted to contribute only within that "personal paradigm" but fell through due to fearing the need to extensively justify them, although I was like "it's fine it's fine" :[ maybe next time.

Also

However, the most interesting thing to come out of this, for me, is the idea that 18 characters may have a claim to spots 11-15

I hadn't made that realisation, but you're right it is quite interesting. But I think you mean 12th-15th

 

[Routa]

Hmm... How well would Mario, Green Mario and Bad Mario work out? Are there any MU where they all suck? I'm asking this 'cause it seems like team made in heaven.

 

[FullMoon]

It's kinda hard to main 3 characters and not have all MUs covered unless you really mess up in your choices.

Sheik seems like trouble for all three of them though, but well, Sheik.

 

[Locke 06]

Okay. Could be total BS here, but an obvious pattern has emerged that is easily analyzed.

No particular indications list:


With the exception of Bowser, Falco, and Lucas, you have 5 newcomers. Lucas has not been out for very long and Falco plays completely different from Brawl in some respects (as has been covered extensively by multiple essays)... and Bowser, well I honestly don't know a ton about Brawl Bowser or why he fits in this list.

Anyway, 5 newcomers that have incredibly limited representation and "high learning curve" kits. Is it the underrepresented/developed newcomer syndrome? Or is it that the newcomers really are middle of the pack?

 

[NairWizard]

It's kinda hard to main 3 characters and not have all MUs covered unless you really mess up in your choices.

Sheik seems like trouble for all three of them though, but well, Sheik.

Going off of this, I don't understand why some people main two characters + Sheik.

Just main Sheik in that case lol. You can learn all the matchups, it's not like she loses any.

 

[FullMoon]

Okay. Could be total BS here, but an obvious pattern has emerged that is easily analyzed.

No particular indications list:


With the exception of Bowser, Falco, and Lucas, you have 5 newcomers. Lucas has not been out for very long and Falco plays completely different from Brawl in some respects (as has been covered extensively by multiple essays)... and Bowser, well I honestly don't know a ton about Brawl Bowser or why he fits in this list.

Anyway, 5 newcomers that have incredibly limited representation and "high learning curve" kits. Is it the underrepresented/developed newcomer syndrome? Or is it that the newcomers really are middle of the pack?

Bowser is also a lot different in this incarnation so he probably falls into the same category as Falco, even if not to the same extent.

Bowser Jr, Duck Hunt, Pac-Man and Megaman are all projectile-heavy characters for what it's worth. Shulk is the only different one but we all know his gimmick.

 

[Routa]

Okay. Could be total BS here, but an obvious pattern has emerged that is easily analyzed.

No particular indications list:


With the exception of Bowser, Falco, and Lucas, you have 5 newcomers. Lucas has not been out for very long and Falco plays completely different from Brawl in some respects (as has been covered extensively by multiple essays)... and Bowser, well I honestly don't know a ton about Brawl Bowser or why he fits in this list.

Anyway, 5 newcomers that have incredibly limited representation and "high learning curve" kits. Is it the underrepresented/developed newcomer syndrome? Or is it that the newcomers really are middle of the pack?

I think the reason why Megaman, DHD, Pac-Man are usually thought to be mid tier or high mid is their "none current meta" like playstyle.