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Custom Marth i.e Sky-King Marth is WAY better then anything Zelda.My personal opinion
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I feel like its her community that holds her back most. They don't have that much faith in her which is extremely unhealthy for advancing a meta. Yes they are helping but if they were more optimistic, it would be much better.
What are you sayin', he's a fast faller with the 10th best run speed, and his dash grab slide like falcon's without whiffing on short characters. And if he feels otherwise he can dash attack or roll everywhere and stay unpunished. And i'm happy he does have some trouble getting in, since when he does get in you're dead 6 sec later.
Optimism is good and all, but I think you're taking it too far. Maybe I don't understand Zelda well enough, but I'm not seeing how she's above 18 characters.My personal opinion
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I feel like its her community that holds her back most. They don't have that much faith in her which is extremely unhealthy for advancing a meta. Yes they are helping but if they were more optimistic, it would be much better.
is it really 6 seconds long? Maybe 6 up airs... which are like 3 a second right?
We all learn and often it's better to come off in a more questioning tone by asking "what makes Meta Knight better than a character like Wario, isn't his range an issue?". Lurking can also be helpful. Oh but in general, Wario is disgustingly under represented and talked about, so although being top 20 there's probably a lot less out there (and here) than there should be. How much higher do you think Wario should be and what is currently 'missing'?
Lucario is another one of those characters I wasn't really expecting... I've been calling him a low tier (with high potency possibilities / essentially an enigma character) for a long time but he's been considered pretty highly by several people and after the upset on NAKAT at CEO by Kamu (I think?) many opinions became solidified that he is a very scary character to think about facing and has a certain broken factor to him.
Palutena with Super Speed and Lightweight.are there any other characters that hinge on 1 or 2 moves to be viable? the only character i know that does is
Not really, no. He combos well when he's not in a high state of Aura, which allows him to build up damage well. His advantageous state in neutral is good, and if he can build damage consistently then he does not need to be hurt himself to pose a reasonable threat.
That's not true at all, his up-b is super easy to hit him out of, at least as Sheik. (rest of your post i agree with)
I think this would look good in a 4 "group" (tier?) system, where each character is grouped into one of four groups of viability. I did my own 3 group thing and it's actually remarkably similar to yours (the only characters you're "definitely" missing are Marth/Gunner), but I think a 4 tier system is more ideal.If we were to take those top 15 characters and call them the viable characters, which is very close to my own personal list (with the addition of Wario and Villager for 17), here is a list of characters that I would say are on the cusp of viability, or tier II in a three tier system:
I have omitted the recent DLC characters due to lack of exposure and data and Pac-Man because I honestly am not sure where he should reside. I am unsure about Link but a recent player in NorCal who played Link made me view the character a little differently.
Meanwhile Tweek is where he is in the EVO bracket? Pretty good thus far for what I'm considering to be a sub-viable character.
So...you can't gimp him.
Maybe, but realistically no character can be gimped in this game if they recover low and tech your stage spike.
While I'm never quite certain I meet the requirements, I would love to assist with this if you would desire it.@Gunla
1. There are many practical interpretations for a Tier List, and at least for the Brawl and Melee ones results were generally considered most important in the long term. At this point "theory" seems fair to acknowledge but we probably shouldn't discount what we're seeing for it until we see it consistently play out. Luigi could be a lot worse, so could Zero Suit; they have "critical flaws" although their rewards are amazing. In Luigi's case he may not be capable of handling major tournaments as a solo main as his performances in that regard seem underwhelming although his regional level and lower results are crazy. And personally I was surprised at the very high unanimous opinion of Yoshi despite lacking majorly notable break outs, a couple of queries pinged "but no one top level mains Yoshi, could you imagine how insanely strong he would be?" and as dangerous as that is his results do seem to be picking up over time, at least anecdotally.
But yeah, pleasing everyone wasn't the goal, but I do hope it's mostly pleasing >_<
2. Those who indicated customs on were few and their responses despite single extra additions weren't radically different to anyone else who assumed customs off. Brawler has a mean of 9.33 within custom only voters. Mii Gunner and Swordsman still show up in bottom 10s (although not both at the same time) and would be sitting tied somewhere with a dozen other characters.
3. Depending on how things go in the near future, it's a possibility.
4. At that point we would be ready for the entire "tier list" I'd say. However, using this to cut down the possible answers on 21st-43rd is somewhat practical in helping a tier list production and could otherwise be an interesting ...totally not planned past time here. It's possible to derive some janky full tier list from all the data I have actually (29 characters voted top and 27 bottom) and I did have a little dabble in this to see, but it isn't too great I guess, maybe at some point of time when it doesn't matter much.
5. I originally indicated a month, but as it took almost a month for the busier smashers to respond and many who expressed interest left behind (at Sky's house), I'm a tad bit cynical about that schedule now. This would be a good time to mention that if you're interested in being apart of this for the next time and think you meet requirements PASS ON YOUR INTERESTS TO ME. What I'll probably look at doing is saying to participants "here's your last list, have any changes to make?" and if they respond 'nay' (or equivalent) include it again to make it easier for some~ (I need to vent over my persistence with some at least a little, I love them all anyway). So uhh... we'll see.
Is that in order?If we were to take those top 15 characters and call them the viable characters, which is very close to my own personal list (with the addition of Wario and Villager for 17), here is a list of characters that I would say are on the cusp of viability, or tier II in a three tier system:
I have omitted the recent DLC characters due to lack of exposure and data and Pac-Man because I honestly am not sure where he should reside. I am unsure about Link but a recent player in NorCal who played Link made me view the character a little differently.
You can gimp a lot of characters once you take their jump away, regardless of how they recover. You cannot gimp Lucario. You need to send him in to the blast zone somehow.
No.
You're not. The notion that DK counters Sheik is nothing short of absurd (have we even seen this matchup at Evo?).
Also Zero won set 1 against John Numbers.
First time in a while I've seen someone not immediately dismiss G&W as low tier. I approve.If we were to take those top 15 characters and call them the viable characters, which is very close to my own personal list (with the addition of Wario and Villager for 17), here is a list of characters that I would say are on the cusp of viability, or tier II in a three tier system:
I have omitted the recent DLC characters due to lack of exposure and data and Pac-Man because I honestly am not sure where he should reside. I am unsure about Link but a recent player in NorCal who played Link made me view the character a little differently.
Double Greninja, all the way!I think this would look good in a 4 "group" (tier?) system, where each character is grouped into one of four groups of viability. I did my own 3 group thing and it's actually remarkably similar to yours (the only characters you're "definitely" missing are Marth/Gunner), but I think a 4 tier system is more ideal.
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Borderline 1/2
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Borderline 2/3
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I still think 4 would be better than 3. I think with 4 tiers I'd be able to comfortably place Falco, Ganon, Charizard, G&W, Kirby, Lucina, Swordfighter, Roy and maybe Bowser/Mewtwo in the lower half but not in the bottom tier (eg Tier 3, the rest of borderline 2/3 and 3 likely becomes borderline 3/4).
This always happens, Abadango shows up at our big tournaments, makes a big splash, everyone thinks he's great for about a week, then everyone forgets about him again.
King Dedede, Kirby, Shulk, Ryu, Roy, Lucas, and Jigglypuff should be higher, whiile Mii Gunner, Marth, and greninja should be lowerI think this would look good in a 4 "group" (tier?) system, where each character is grouped into one of four groups of viability. I did my own 3 group thing and it's actually remarkably similar to yours (the only characters you're "definitely" missing are Marth/Gunner), but I think a 4 tier system is more ideal.
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Borderline 1/2
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Borderline 2/3
3
I still think 4 would be better than 3. I think with 4 tiers I'd be able to comfortably place Falco, Ganon, Charizard, G&W, Kirby, Lucina, Swordfighter, Roy and maybe Bowser/Mewtwo in the lower half but not in the bottom tier (eg Tier 3, the rest of borderline 2/3 and 3 likely becomes borderline 3/4).
