Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[FullMoon]

MK vs Greninja is in Greninja's favor for a variety of reasons.

Such as?

 

[TTTTTsd]

EL's right. You're putting our liege and his kingdom in danger.

Edit: As long as ZeRo, M2K, and reddit scrubs think he's bad and as long as he keeps losing online we'll be fine.

I want my hitboxes and autocancels!

All I want for Marth is for his FSmash to be able to tip people on BF platforms. That's it. ACs would be nice but I don't think he needs them at all now, lest we go too far.

He feels SO ****ING GOOD now, though! Like, solid to play. When you do good with him, you know you do good. Just space with jab into mixups, mmm.

 

[Vipermoon]

All I want for Marth is for his FSmash to be able to tip people on BF platforms. That's it. ACs would be nice but I don't think he needs them at all now, lest we go too far.

He feels SO ****ING GOOD now, though! Like, solid to play. When you do good with him, you know you do good. Just space with jab into mixups, mmm.

It's tough, but he can still do the battlefield thing. Lucina even less (she's shorter), so another Marth benefit there. Though it's very good on Lylat especially when it tilts!

If they could change frame 10 hitboxes of Fsmash (frame above Marth) to match the sword trail animation Fsmash would be hitting through platforms much easier.

Side note: Tipper Usmash (which is also very scary) is almost guarenteed on Smashville platforms.

 

[TTTTTsd]

It's tough, but he can still do the battlefield thing. Lucina even less (she's shorter), so another Marth benefit there. Though it's very good on Lylat especially when it tilts!

If they could change frame 10 hitboxes of Fsmash (frame above Marth) to match the sword trail animation Fsmash would be hitting through platforms much easier.

Side note: Tipper Usmash (which is also very scary) is almost guarenteed on Smashville platforms.

I just want it to match the trails so that it goes from tough to plausible, if you feel me (on Battlefield). I don't know if Lucina has to worry about it as much cause her FSmash is stupid and doesn't need to be tipped haha. But yeah, I'd love it to match the trails. I think the other attacks can stay as is. FSmash is a commitment.

Side Note: Tipper hits are the most beautiful thing. Tipper FSmash's impact is just heartwrenchingly beautiful.

 

[Amadeus9]

Such as?

The foremost reason is the ability to escape kill setups. That **** is annoying. Beyond that he's quick and so doesn't care that much about MK's excellent mobility (where as in a number of matchups, MK mobility completely trivializes the matchup), and he has a decent projectile that can make it dangerous to play too defensively, which again frog doesn't care too much about anyways because he's really fast. He can fade in/fade out pretty effectively on our approaches, and punish if we get too hasty. If frog had better frame data than us this matchup would be really bad, but he doesn't. If the SS thing didn't exist, it'd be pretty close to even, but it does exist. What makes that part of the matchup so frustrating is that shuttle loop is the only non-read kill move MK has against Greninja, which is desperately needed because of how Greninja outpaces us in neutral, even when we get a confirm trying to go for the kill is just going to end with it being dodged and special falling to the ground where we'll eat a punish.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

It's a little late and a few of them have done it already, but I'll give my personal take on vs the Top 20 (because lists are fun):
-2:
-1:,
0: ,,,,,,,,,,,,
+1:,,
+2:

Some things to note:

• Sheik's just going to be everyone's worst MU.
• I think the Luigi matchup is one where Luigi greatly suffers; we can basically stall him down with Shurikens and literally run away from many of his tools, in addition to escaping many of his combos.
• The Ness matchup may be a -.5 or something; I'm unsure the most about this matchup by far.
• Customs Off, we win against Brawler and Villager. Customs On, I'd say they're even, or closer to it at least.
• While I say that Dark Pit is 0, I think Pit's version is a little more even due to the arrows.

Feel free to challenge this, or just nitpick it. Greninja happens to go even against a good chunk of the cast, notably the perceived threats. Jiggs is what I'd consider his best MU however.

I like this a lot. Greninja has a lot of odd ball tools that allow him to salvage matchups he would otherwise lose in weird ways. Fall speed and ss cancel messes with things like Mario combos, Diddy grab setups, pk fire, zss boost kick, and mk kill setups. Hydro pump keeps Pikachu honest with QA.

How do you see the Lucario matchup? I would imagine that would be advantage greninja due to early kill power, a better projectile, and HP to deal with aura sphere ledge traps, but I've never seen the MU.

 

[migul]

Aren't most characters outside of Sheik have like one or two viable top tier players for them in terms of Western?
ZSS, NR and Nairo
Mario, ally
Fox, Megafox Larry
Luigi, Concon Boss (?)
Rosalina, Dabuz
Diddy, Jtails Zero
Pikachi, ESAM

Does that mean all of em should be top 5? I faintly remember Japan saying Sonic is still like top 2 for them and that Sonic beats ZSS.

Also a bit off topic kinda, but it's really hard to make a tier list once you get past high tier or your version of A/B tier. Characters like WFT Robin Zelda and Samus continue getting buffs and can jump from being worst in game to bottom of a supposed person's mid tier from some minor changes in multiple moves alone.
People wanna feel like special snowflakes that they play "bad" characters but then once they get massively buffed they can't be saying they're playing a bad character anymore.
Quite literally almost every character in this game can make top 32 at big nationals now.

I think MVD should be in the "getting Diddy great results" category.

 

[Wintropy]

I've had fun in the lab with the Pit / Greninja matchup to see if I still think it's even. I'm gonna say that, yes, it is still even, but by the most razor-thin of margins.

Be told: pseudo-theorycraft ahead! I've done tests with this, but this is just one cat's opinion, so consume with as much salt as you feel necessary.

First thing I want to mention is Greninja's safety at mid-range. Like god damn it is difficult to get in if he doesn't want you to. The usual pressure tools like retreating f-air and shorthop d-air do a good job at reminding the opponent that yeah, Pit's got these disjoints, watch yourself - but with an opponent as fast and slippery as Greninja, who can just retaliate with shuriken, it becomes a war of attrition to see who moves first. Pit can try to bait a f-air or smash from Greninja by floating around his space, then move in for the punish, but it's very difficult to efficiently pressure Greninja when he can just keep you out with his shuriken and has these wonderful footsies that Pit can't reliably catch up with.

Shuriken is another point I want to mention. A standing arrow with a straight trajectory will go right over shuriken, while shuriken will go under the arrow; in theory, it's possibly for both characters to outright trade if they just stand back and toss out these shots at each-other. Uncharged arrow and uncharged shuriken will clank too. The point I want to make here is that, really, neither opponent can afford to just stay back and take potshots: both options will eventually force the other opponent to move, so I think it invariably comes down to who can hold out at mid-range the most efficiently. As mentioned, Greninja can force Pit out and play merry hell with his approach options, but Pit can just answer Greninja's footsies with a mixup like pivot f-tilt / grab - while I think Greninja definitely has the better mobility options and can trade evenly with Pit in neutral, Pit has more mixup options (n-air that's reliable for f-air / jablock setups helps, in addition to a d-air that can punish very well at close-range) - this is, of course, in addition to Upperdash Arm, the nuclear option for any kamikaze divinity.

Landing options, I think, are in Greninja's favour too. I've always felt Pit has a tough time landing, but the threat of Greninja's u-air and u-smash can force us to move to the ledge and try to recover from there. That's a good tech to have, and most importantly, it makes us think twice about how we come down. The fact that you can change your fallspeed when you need to land and can dodge out of the way with Hydro Pump is useful too.

Off-stage, Greninja shines. Hydro Pump just wrecks Pit's recovery, up-b and side-b inclusive. This is an element I had overlooked until recently, and yet it really can make a difference: it just makes Pit's off-stage game, a defining feature of his gameplan, very unsafe. You can just dash right out of Pit's aerial chase if you're quick and make his own recovery options redundant. Now I won't claim to be an expert in Greninja's hydromantic capabilities, but I could definitely believe it's worth a mention in matchup discussions. It's definitely an element Pit needs to remember in this matchup.

I think it's still even overall, and at the risk of missing the entire point of the character, I'd say we both have very similar gameplans and abilities when it comes down to it. We've both got the tricks to keep the other on their toes and a reliable projectile option to force the approach. I think it really just comes down to who plays footsies better and can force the other into disadvantage first. There isn't a way to keep momentum in this matchup or force the other out with raw muscle, it really comes down to the wire and is a matchup that values consistency and good fundamentals over everything else.

 

[bc1910]

I like this a lot. Greninja has a lot of odd ball tools that allow him to salvage matchups he would otherwise lose in weird ways. Fall speed and ss cancel messes with things like Mario combos, Diddy grab setups, pk fire, zss boost kick, and mk kill setups. Hydro pump keeps Pikachu honest with QA.

How do you see the Lucario matchup? I would imagine that would be advantage greninja due to early kill power, a better projectile, and HP to deal with aura sphere ledge traps, but I've never seen the MU.

I don't think SS cancel makes much of a difference to any MU besides MK. Like, Greninja wouldn't lose to Mario, Diddy, Ness or ZSS without it. Or rather if he did end up losing to these characters in time it wouldn't be because the SS cancel got removed. A lot of what makes him strong is quite simply being a very mobile character with a good projectile and advantage state.

I hate fighting Lucario. His weight makes him really hard to kill for me, and he's not combo food like the super heavies. He's got this really annoying combination of weight + physics that let him live for too long, so he can bull**** his way to victory through Aura with relative ease. But I'm just whining - all that is true for any character. I don't think Greninja has a particular problem with Lucario. He can camp him pretty hard now, and generally just shouldn't be getting hit much. Slightly in Greninja's favour might be appropriate.

 

[Sinister Slush]

I think MVD should be in the "getting Diddy great results" category.

Forgot about mvd, how'd he do at EVO. Barely paid attention to it.

 

[warionumbah2]

Went into T-mode and put everything on slowmotion, placed Greninja on the Duck Hunt tree branch furthest to the left and MK under him.

Note: I'm getting the Shuttle loop 1 where it doesn't lock your opponent into the 2nd and the sweetspot which does.

This shadow cancel bs isn't even consistent from the looks of things, especially when i get the sweetspot of shuttle loop 1. Almost every time i got the weaker hit i could see Greninja doing his shadow sneak pose, sometimes he avoided the 2nd loop and hit MK, sometimes he took the second hit. The timing is obviously harder at normal speed.

Basically its inconsistent and its less likely to work(if at all) if MK gets the sweetspot. Still stupid tho.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Forgot about mvd, how'd he do at EVO. Barely paid attention to it.

Top 32. Same placing as Angelcortes iirc. I think they both abused the hell out of that custom up-b. Got a lot of mileage out of that thing. Apparently, the offensive potential really does make up for the terrible recovery.

 

[migul]

Forgot about mvd, how'd he do at EVO. Barely paid attention to it.

17th. Got 5th at CEO

 

[Emblem Lord]

@ Shaya

You do know that you can just...........


perfect pivot into f-smash after the fair right?

I'm just sayin tho.

Also...SHFF uair perfect pivot f-smash is true at various percents and kills.

>_>

*disappears back into the abyss.

 

[NegaNixx]

At the risk of incurring EL's wrath, Marth really does feel absurd with customs on now, especially comparing it to how it was his before his first buff. I went back to him today (been working on my Fox) and while before it felt like he needed it to complete his kit (Cresent Slash, Dashing Assault to a lesser extent) now that his kit feels cohesive it has me absolutely baffled with how strong he is. I swear if they just fix the dead zones on some of his moves he'll be a real contender for a high tier spot (customs off).

 

[FullMoon]

The foremost reason is the ability to escape kill setups. That **** is annoying. Beyond that he's quick and so doesn't care that much about MK's excellent mobility (where as in a number of matchups, MK mobility completely trivializes the matchup), and he has a decent projectile that can make it dangerous to play too defensively, which again frog doesn't care too much about anyways because he's really fast. He can fade in/fade out pretty effectively on our approaches, and punish if we get too hasty. If frog had better frame data than us this matchup would be really bad, but he doesn't. If the SS thing didn't exist, it'd be pretty close to even, but it does exist. What makes that part of the matchup so frustrating is that shuttle loop is the only non-read kill move MK has against Greninja, which is desperately needed because of how Greninja outpaces us in neutral, even when we get a confirm trying to go for the kill is just going to end with it being dodged and special falling to the ground where we'll eat a punish.

I see, thanks for the info. I haven't gotten to play MK much so I wouldn't know how they compare.

How do you see the Lucario matchup? I would imagine that would be advantage greninja due to early kill power, a better projectile, and HP to deal with aura sphere ledge traps, but I've never seen the MU.

Lucario has the problem that even as you get a lead you don't really feel you're making progress against him. Lucario's kill power at later percentages is very intimidating and he can easily turn the tides. Aura Sphere shenanigans at the ledge are also problematic because if we recover high then he'll just fire the sphere and if we go to the ledge he can trap us. Hydro Pump does help a lot against it and it can screw with Lucario's recovery pretty badly as well (that landing lag man.)

Shurikens give us a stronger ranged game due to their speed, our moves are strong enough to make him not live -too- long and we can gimp him but we can never really feel safe against Lucario until we get him down a stock without dying first. Once Lucario gets a stock lead he can be really tough because he deals a lot of damage and we won't have rage to help us kill him.

It's not a problematic MU for us, but it's hard to really feel safe against Lucario. I guess if nothing else his frame data when grounded is pretty bad.

Went into T-mode and put everything on slowmotion, placed Greninja on the Duck Hunt tree branch furthest to the left and MK under him.

Note: I'm getting the Shuttle loop 1 where it doesn't lock your opponent into the 2nd and the sweetspot which does.

This shadow cancel bs isn't even consistent from the looks of things, especially when i get the sweetspot of shuttle loop 1. Almost every time i got the weaker hit i could see Greninja doing his shadow sneak pose, sometimes he avoided the 2nd loop and hit MK, sometimes he took the second hit. The timing is obviously harder at normal speed.

Basically its inconsistent and its less likely to work(if at all) if MK gets the sweetspot. Still stupid tho.

Yeah, part of the reason I don't really think the hitstun cancelling has that big of an impact is because it's inconsistent and the timing is strict. Sure, it's pretty obvious when MK is going to do it when he's Up-Air chaining you, but Shuttle Loop is still frame 7 and getting the timing down for that is not that easy.

 

[bc1910]

You're never really winning against Lucario.

Until you take that final stock, you're just making his job easier.

 

[|RK|]

Speaking of Lucario, is the ZeRo vs Kamicario friendly up yet?

 

[Illuminose]

Needles only work to a certain extent vs MK. Multiple jumps gives him a pretty easy way to avoid needle landing traps as well as close distance between him and Sheik. Needles are not safe at mid or close range (unless you shoot a full set or they're at high percent), so it doesn't really matter.

 

[MVD]

Top 32. Same placing as Angelcortes iirc. I think they both abused the hell out of that custom up-b. Got a lot of mileage out of that thing. Apparently, the offensive potential really does make up for the terrible recovery.

How dare you say I used customs with diddy

 

[SpottedCerberus]

How dare you say I used customs with diddy

Sorry. I don't think I actually saw any of your matches. (I barely watched any of EVO tbh.) I just knew that Cortes did and people were complaining about it enough that I assumed there must have been another Diddy running the same set.

Respect tho. Default Diddy is a lot more dynamic and entertaining.

 

[Ikes]

why isn't Kongo Jungle a legal counterpick stage but Duck Hunt is? what am I missing?

 

[momochuu]

Aura Sphere shenanigans at the ledge are also problematic because if we recover high then he'll just fire the sphere and if we go to the ledge he can trap us.

you can ledge drop and up air him with greninja. one of the only real uses of ledge dropping in this game.

 

[Space thing]

you can ledge drop and up air him with greninja. one of the only real uses of ledge dropping in this game.

That's an option. If the Lucario thinks you're going to do it, he can roll/jump away and punish your regrab/landing with an Aura Sphere though.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

why isn't Kongo Jungle a legal counterpick stage but Duck Hunt is? what am I missing?

Barrels and huge blastzones making games last too long regardless of camping.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

why isn't Kongo Jungle a legal counterpick stage but Duck Hunt is? what am I missing?

EVO copied Apex's stage list and legal contracts locked them into it. Everyone else played follow the leader. Some people think the size and barrel are troublesome, but I can't remember if that was ever borne out in practice.

Also this is probably better suited for the stage thread.

 

[Man Li Gi]

why isn't Kongo Jungle a legal counterpick stage but Duck Hunt is? what am I missing?

As much as I truly like the stage, the fact that the blast zones make BF'S look reasonable is a deterrent. Also, it seems not benefit anyone. People used to say that circle camping can work on that stage, but the itself was shrunk down while the blast zones stay the same and camping itself was nerfed. I realistically only see time outs occurring on that stage on the highest of levels. The same reason may be why Peach's Castle is in the air. (Not an intentional joke).

 

[hypersonicJD]

Soo, is now Hyrule Castle legal now? It was legal in Smash 64 in any type of stage and it was quite good. I would like it to retun to the meta game. Besides, the vertical blastzone isn't too large at all and the tornado it's not that bad.

 

[T4ylor]

Only reason why I want to see Kongo Jungle 64 legalized is to balance the stagelist a little. Delfino, Dreamland 64, Halberd, and to a lesser extent Town & City all have lower ceilings while none really have that extra height.

 

[momochuu]

Soo, is now Hyrule Castle legal now? It was legal in Smash 64 in any type of stage and it was quite good. I would like it to retun to the meta game. Besides, the vertical blastzone isn't too large at all and the tornado it's not that bad.

uhh, no. the stage is ****ing huge lol. i coul see time outs being way too easy on that stage.

 

[Shaya]

EL's right. You're putting our liege and his kingdom in danger.

Edit: As long as ZeRo, M2K, and reddit scrubs think he's bad and as long as he keeps losing online we'll be fine.

I want my hitboxes and autocancels!

I've effectively stopped being able to lose with this character online though.
I'm at 100%/50, and I've been stuck at 83%/100 for what feels like forever, but under current conditions I think I can get 100%/100.

Like, all these lag reductions make things like counter, shieldbreaker and stupid crap like the back hit of down smash (which can kill quite early) actually plausible reactive choices as people falter from his pressure.
All of our aerial landings on shield into up tilt is actually like... a frame trap again. A frame trap that nets Marth 20% or so nearly all the time and a lot more at early percent.

Invincibility nerfs are likely a really large factor to his overall feeling better too. For ZSS, the universal nerfs are double sided for her, but for Marth it's blatantly a meta-buff for him.
Because Neutral Air will kill you.
Dancing Blade will reach you.
Getting fast fallen fair/uair/dair on those dodge reactions or reads = a lot of damage.

I really really really wish ZSS could easily hit people on the ground with up air. I remember being peeved falcon could while ZSS couldn't, but now I'm just happy that I have the two characters able to complement each other very well in training and control/movement, as Marth has it slightly easier. Honestly Zero Suit Marth playstyle tends to be more effective for me when I'm somehow tricked into that mindset, now I think it's going to be a lot easier.

 

[Zionaze]

I feel like the current stagelist heavily benefits vertical killers

 

[wedl!!]

yea.

in breaking news, rain is wet and grass is green

i still don't get how is a top tier character when his neutral isn't that great. i mean, his kill setups are nasty and his dash attack is godly, but having a weak neutral in a game like smash 4 tends to be crippling.

 

[Luco]

yea.

in breaking news, rain is wet and grass is green

i still don't get how is a top tier character when his neutral isn't that great. i mean, his kill setups are nasty and his dash attack is godly, but having a weak neutral in a game like smash 4 tends to be crippling.

His advantage is so godly, it makes up for it. He's also fast enough so that Dash grab/attack tend to allow him to get by.

Ness, another top tier, also has a very mediocre neutral, and he doesn't kill at 60% with a 50/50 read (unless you're disrespecting with PK Flash, PK Thunder or Fsmash at the ledge lol).

And I'd argue that Luigi, now more than ever, has trended towards a less stunning neutral in favour of crazy advantage.

 

[migul]

Soo, is now Hyrule Castle legal now? It was legal in Smash 64 in any type of stage and it was quite good. I would like it to retun to the meta game. Besides, the vertical blastzone isn't too large at all and the tornado it's not that bad.

Hyrule castle is banned in Smash 64. Just saying.

 

[Luco]

We shouldn't really be talking about this here, but quickly:

The vertical blastzone of hyrule castle 64 is quite large, but the main issues I see with it include the polarising nature of tornadoes (it's like abusing a walk-off, once someone's at 100% just throw them into a tornado and they die), cave of life issues (with the wall and little green house-tower-thing area, and camping issues in the same area.

Also can Marth stop getting buffs, I'm not ready to go back to those dark days. ;-;

 

[hypersonicJD]

Wait what? Really? I actually used to play in there so much with my friends in Kaillera.

Anyways, How has Robin improved in this patch? His Down Grab got a really good buff and now they can combo pretty nicely to jab and other moves. Does that help him? Or does he still ''suckk''?

 

[David Viran]

yea.

in breaking news, rain is wet and grass is green

i still don't get how is a top tier character when his neutral isn't that great. i mean, his kill setups are nasty and his dash attack is godly, but having a weak neutral in a game like smash 4 tends to be crippling.

Zss is carried by her ridiculous advantage state.

 

[wedl!!]

yea, but zss has semi decent neutral (in comparison to mk). that's basically how she beats sonic.

my statements that people overestimate reward>safety don't apply in a game where so few characters have great advantaged states but neutral is so important. smash 4 is really an oxymoron of a game if you think about it long enough.

 

[Rashyboy05]

Anyways, How has Robin improved in this patch? His Down Grab got a really good buff and now they can combo pretty nicely to jab and other moves. Does that help him? Or does he still ''suckk''?

He still kinda suck with that mobility and Grab range but he's a legitimate threat with his new "Hoo-Hah" and the Thunder variation buffs.