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He does well against mid tiers, he has soft -1s against high/top tiers if everyone gets buffed while MK gets little baby buffs AGAIN then things will change for the worse.
Yes. But everytime MK wins people overrate him, like Tyrant beat Vinnie on stream and the bs fludded the chat.
Aren't most characters outside of Sheik have like one or two viable top tier players for them in terms of Western?
You are actually the best person. I felt warm and fuzzy reading this.
warionumbah2
? When has this MU happened at top level?Then link the Q&A for him lol. Need to give people self-sustaining tools. Better to give a homeless person a fishing rod rather than just a fish (or perhaps rather give them a rod if you're going to take the fish away from them).
Mario now wins the projectile war more easily due to Luigi's fireball nerf. Also I still fail to see how d tilt isnt at least a slight nerf overall, and Mario had no problems recovering against Luigi compared to how Luigi does against Mario either way.
Pretty much. I considered it to be 6-4 Luigi before though and seeing as this is one of Mario's few bad matchups I'd say that's a meaningful change.
Drastically? Well, there are degrees of drastic. Yeah, I shouldn't be twisting words. Re-posting this...
To summarize, it would affect him like all changes would. Falco being able to auto-cancel his Blaster is both a significant and superficial buff. Significant as he can cut down his end lag from 59 frames to 4, his hard landing lag, or 50 to 4 if he doesn't want to deal with the end lag while in the air. Being able to auto-cancel his Blaster would allow him to follow his laser like King can with her Venom Strike, Leona with her Earring Bomb, and Guile with Sonic Boom? - not knowledgeable with Street Fighter. Is that good? Absolutely; Falco would be able to cover an approach by having an active hitbox in front of him or by occupying different parts of the screen, Falco can force his opponent to choose between the laser or him in the air. In theory, it would all be great for Falco.I wasn't going to respond, but after watching some of Juicebox's stuff, especially his Kyo basics guide, I thought of something relating to Falco which you can apply to any other character with a projectile.
Edit: And yes, I like complaining about Falco.As a projectile, frame advantages, evens, and disadvantages are all different depending on range and how the projectile functions like Fox's default Blaster will always be disadvantaged since it does no hit stun, but depending how far he uses it, that's not going to matter if you can't cover the distance. Falco's default Blaster is even on hit at max range which is kind of bad when you consider how slow he moves. At midrange and close range, it's negative on hit which is horrible. It's not because it has set knockback which is what makes it unique as projectile, but also allows it to gimp because it sends you nowhere, instead, it just stuns you for a bit, you continue your momentum, and you suffer from a 30 frame can't grab ledge because of hit stun. Here's the thing, Fox can do that too and all you need is 1 laser from Impact Blaster.
With the changes to Fox's Blaster, Fox's total frames for default and Impact Blaster is 39 frames and Charge Blaster is 78 frames. This means Fox can't act until frame 40 for default and Impact and 79 for Charge. For Falco, his total frames for default is 58 on the ground and 49 in the air, Explosive Blaster is 71, and Burst Blaster is 39. Falco can't act until frames 59 on the ground or 50 in the air for default, 72 for Explosive, and 40 for Burst Blaster. Between Fox's default Blaster and Falco's Burst Blaster, Fox is doing more damage at any range - Fox's does 3% up close, 2% midrange, and 1.4% at long range whereas Falco's does 2% close range and 1% mid to long range - with only 2 more frames of startup than Falco's Burst Blaster which shoots at frame 9. Yeah, pretty much outclasses Falco's custom especially when you consider than Fox runs faster and his default Blaster has more range than Falco's. Between Impact Blaster and Falco's default... Yeah... It already had low end lag compared to Falco's and while it does less damage, it doesn't matter when it does what Falco wished his Blaster did.
Moving onto another game, look at what Kyo Kusanagi's Yamibarai does in The King of Fighters XIII. Remember that games function differently. Except for the EX version, Yamibarai only does set knockback where it doesn't move people. I'm going to type up something that Juicebox says about Yamibarai: "You can't really jump until it's [Yamibarai] all the way over there. Kyo can't use it to approach his opponent like say, King, Andy, Kensou, Mai, Mature - his fireball is designed only to annoy or to make your opponent feel like they need to move, so that they might jump into your uppercut [Oniyaki] or so that they try to jump at you in the air, so then you can get a jumping C+D or something else. Don't use this too much."
Kyo's Yamibarai is more like Fox's Blaster, Ryu's Hadouken and Shakunetsu, or Mario's Fireballs. You don't approach with them nor do you truly force approaches. What do I mean by "truly force approaches"? Yamibarai is not a threat. All it does it chip away at you; it's annoyance, harassment, and zoning by controlling space. You don't fire a Hadouken and run behind it; Ryu's end lag on his Hadouken is actually the same as Falco's, but Ryu can vary its speed, it does more damage, there's a larger hitbox, and Ryu can even change the way it hits with Shakunetsu. Ryu's more likely going to control space, make you feel like you have do something, then he'll vary the speed punishing your option pick or fakes a pattern and then punishes you with input Shoryuken for jumping towards him. Fox's Blaster has no hit stun, but do you really want to deal with lasers flying away at you, chipping away damage, and then watch as Fox runs away or punishes you? Mario? Mario's going to jump, toss Fireballs that arc down, and he'll keep doing that while retreating or moving in and retreating. It's like Wolf drifting in and out with his Blaster. You don't really have to do anything since it's not going to kill you like a charged Shadow Ball nor do they really setup into anything like Sheik's Needles or Lucario's Aura Sphere. It's just there to **** you off. For frame data, Kyo's Yamibarai has a startup of 16 for the light, 15 for the heavy, and 13 for the EX version with recovery frames of 30 (L), 33 (H), and 27 (EX). This means Kyo can't act until frame 46 (L), 48 (H), and 40 (EX).
Now, look at King's Venom Strike and Leona's Earring Bomb. Venom Strike pushes back people ever so slightly. Like he said, "overall, you just want to control space" which for King, makes sense as she's considered a zoning character who has a strong close combat game. Guess who else is a zoning character with a strong close combat game? Melee, Brawl, and PM Falco. While he couldn't vary his laser's speed, he could vary their height. In Melee it wasn't as extreme as he couldn't fire twice before touching the ground, but it's the same idea where M/B/PM Falco can control space or just follow his lasers and use them to approach. Is this a bad thing? Absolutely not when done right. Done wrong like in Melee and Brawl - PM made everyone strong, so that doesn't really matter -, a projectile like that is more than overwhelming. Falco when auto-canceling his Blaster virtually had no end lag. Her startup for Venom Strikes are 12 (L), 9 (H), and 10 (EX) which is surprisingly similar to Falco's Blaster. Recovery are frames 32 (L), 37 (H), and 30 (EX); King can't act until frame 44 (L), 46 (H), and 40 (EX). King has end lag, but low enough where she can still run behind her Venom Strikes. Also, Venom Strike travels fairly quickly compared to Yamibarai.
Moving onto Leona's Earring Bomb which does knockback sort of like Sheik's Needles if they were jewelry grenades... Anyway, long startup for the regular ones at 40 (L) and 45 (H) while the EX version only has 12 frames of startup. For recovery, you're looking at 15 (L), 18 (H), and 24 (EX) meaning Leona acts at frame 45 (L), 63 (H), and 36 (EX). End lag seems long compared to Kyo's, right? It's the startup skewing everything. Quoting Juicebox again: "All of the Earring Bombs have the same purpose. The purpose of the Earring Bomb is you recover so quickly that you can occupy multiple parts of the screen if you wish. If you were to jump and hit light kick, they would have to deal with the ground earring and deal with your jumping normal at the same time. If they were to jump at you, they would probably get hit by this. Another thing you can do with the earring is follow it in on the ground... plus you'll actually get there just as the earring goes off and if you get there as the earring goes off - if it hits - you can see that and go into a combo, but if it doesn't hit - let's say they block it -, then you can use that block stun to get pressure started. M'kay, so they don't want to get hit by it and they don't want to block it, so what you want to do is you want to try occupying different parts of the screen at the same time, so that you can try to force them to move."
Guess who does that? Not really anyone since nobody has a projectile with that kind of startup and low recovery, but the closest thing would be M/B/PM Falco, Peach, the Links, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Diddy, and perhaps Luigi and Sheik. It's mostly Peach, the Links, Mega Man, Pac-Man, and Diddy, but the startup is mostly from getting their projectiles out in hand like Link's Bombs. The principles of following the projectile is there along with being able to occupy multiple parts of the screen which Peach, the Links, Mega Man, Pac-Man, and Diddy. What M/B/PM Falco does is the low end lag thing due to auto-canceling Blaster allowing him to follow the laser. Sheik does that too, but without auto-canceling anything, instead, it's the hit stun on a 1% single Needle or 11.4% or 7.2% 6 Needles - close up, it does 1.9% while at range it does 1.2% along with the low end lag similar to Luigi. Getting hit by any of their projectiles is bad from not just purely damage, but the fact they can setup out of them. Shielding them is mostly bad from M/B/PM Falco's part because he can just stop and pick another option while the others do commit and shielding them isn't as bad.
Why this long writeup about projectiles in another game? It's to show that projectiles do different things. Now what does Falco's Blaster even do? Nothing. It does absolutely nothing better than any projectile in this entire game. It does not kill, it does not edgeguard well, it does not force approaches, it does work as an approach, nor does it even harass well. All it does is damage and if you want damage, you're better off using Burst Blaster or picking another projectile-using character entirely. You can't frame trap or distract like with Triple D's Gordos, you can't rack up damage like with Fox's Blaster, you can't edgeguard like with Greninja's charged Water Shuriken or the Pits' Bows, you can't approach like Mega Man, you can't confirm stuff like Sheik's Needles, and you can't even kill like with Zelda's Din's Fire or Phantom Slash.
Falco's Blaster at best is a rare gimp tool, a combo followup which Fox can do too and much safely, and an inconvenience to the opponent. It's not like Fox, Ryu, or Mega Man where they will annoy you with projectiles. Falco's Blaster end lag is so punishable that you can as Captain Falcon, jump and Falcon Punch him. It's so pathetic enough that Ganondorf can just tank through his lasers and kill him while DK forces Falco to approach. DK, a character with no projectiles, a character with a massive hurtbox, and a character who considered by many, should be the one approaching, but no, Falco's slower than DK and his lasers are just flies hovering around DK.
If Falco has something like King's Venom Strike, he'd probably be a dangerous if not an overwhelming character like he was in Melee and Brawl. Fire a laser, follow it, and force you to pick options. No character in this game does that and with that much range Falco and King have. Luigi can sort of do it, but his Fireballs don't travel that far. Now, something like Kyo's Yamibarai, that might be better and would work better. Falco can't approach with Blaster, he can't truly force approaches, and is more of harassing you and making you think you have to approach. Right now, he can't do that, but he could with lowered end lag. Here's the issue, lowering the end lag too much could end up with a (stronger) Venom Strike which would be something like +20 frames reduced end lag; Falco who could act at 39 on the ground and 30 in the air with Blaster would be too much. 49 on the ground and 40 in the air might be the sweet-spot.
Falco's saving grace is his close range game and so is Kyo and King's. Kyo and King aren't NESTS Kyo, Shen Woo, Claw Iori - the Smash equivalents would be something like Fox, Ganondorf, and Captain Falcon -, but they work well up-close. Now, remove or severely nerf Kyo's Yamibarai and King's Venom Strike. You'd end up with an inferior NESTS Kyo and a zoning character who is now force to play only footsies and up-close. Who does that remind you of? If Falco's close combat game was bad, he'd undoubtedly be the the worst character in the game. He'd be a laughing stock who cannot fight at any range. Even Melee Pichu and Brawl Ganondorf would do better than him.
He's not an honest character; no character is honest. Have you ever died because you didn't know his lasers function differently with his U-throw and B-throw? Have you ever died because you didn't know his Side Smash had transcendent priority, but you were using a character like Toon Link who by all means you be shredding his wings? And have you ever died because you were caught by a lingering hitbox that sent you out too little?
Sources: Fox (and everyone's) changes: http://smashboards.com/threads/tour...nity-patch-notes.412130/page-15#post-19800013.
KoF XIII's frame data: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet...EVZYVCR7F2aSrzhh65U/edit?pli=1#gid=1551678957.
Because of 8Bitman probably
Up smash links significantly better. Much easier to land dtilt to up smash or up smash OOS. Great patch for Diddy.
Uhh....what?
are characters that I could see having a slight advantage against Greninja overtime but in light of the buffs it's hard to tell. These four weren't as affected by the patch (Olimar and Pikachu didn't get any changes at all) so it's hard to tell right now how those MUs are without practicing them.
i'd say
has a better matchup. if its not even its only slightly disadvantaged.Maybe Rosalina. He's got Bthrow to KO Luma, yeah, but getting in is a chore, her edgeguarding is brutal, and Mario can get juggled for days with Uair.
I literally have no idea if there's any ROBs in my area because I basically haven't gotten into my scene. I'll only get properly into it after the tournament on the 28th, hopefully I'll be able to make a strong introduction lol.@FullMoon I'm sure your ROB woes are due in no small part to you mostly playing online. ROB can be an absolute nightmare in even the slightest bit of lag. Assuming you struggle with him offline too (idk if there are any ROBs in your scene) you may be giving him too much respect in neutral as a result of online matches. It really is a case of picking up the gyro and camping him (works even better with the new shurikens) and abusing his horrible disadvantage state. Steer clear of staying in his face; Nair is really dumb and ROB's hoo hah will end us quickly at certain percents. I don't think it's an easy MU by any means but it's not one we should lose decisively.
yeah, the sourspot hitbox on fair got bigger and damage on fair was nerfed by literally decimals. not relevant imo.
Minor damage nerf to fair. No change to needles. Seems like they're cutting characters that have already been nerfed like Shiek and Diddy a break and giving heavy buffs to others instead.
The sentence is meant for all characters, not just her. Some have had buffs in all patches or some only every patch or two.
Which matchup is that?
Definitely not Mario. I think the match up is pretty rough for him because she has better off stage options. I feel like the match up is a juggle fest and goes back and forth on the stage but Sheik has so many tools to mess up Mario off stage that it's not even funny. Mario has lots of offstage tools too but Sheik's recovery is reliable enough that a cape, ledge trump bair, or FLUDD blast is hardly the end of the world for her like it is other characters. If the needles were weaker and bouncing fish didn't exist, I would probably argue this matchup being even but Sheik can easily trump Mario's options when he's trying to make it back to the stage.
I don't even think we lose to Sonic any more. He can catch us but he doesn't actually like staying in. We can deal with Spin Dash by using jab or just punishing the jump after he hits our shield with full hop Bair. Homing Spin is a free 14% every time it hits our shield because Fair has enough range to be a guaranteed punish. Campy Sonic is a problem, but he's a problem for everyone.
Holy finally beating Ally was also a pretty big deal a few months ago.
I really doubt it. Shadow Sneak is just too slow for that.
You Shadow Sneak and hold it until the Sonic turns the spindash around or he screech stops, and peg him in the endlag.
In the name of the Empire plz STAHP!!!!I could do with a real solid shot of reality. I feel like Marth is just... so good...
Up Tilt... oh man up tilt.
Back hit is setting up for up airs/aerials/maybe even smash attacks of the tipper variety nearly all the time. It chains into itself at low percent by turning around between hits. Up Tilt -> Up Air -> Up Air -> Up Tilt rinse repeat is KIND OF A THING TOO.
Down Air's 4 frames off landing is pretty significant I'm finding. We now have a fast fall landing aerial that can be just as long horizontally as it is vertically below us. 0.7x modifier on hit lag on a 11 damage move like this is pretty nice. The sour spot sends directly upwards and doesn't exactly scale knockback too well
Angle=0x50, KBG=0x46, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x28 on vertical sending down air, with 24 or more frames of end lag
vs
Angle=0x64, KBG=0x64, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x34 on sour up tilt behind him, with between 28 to 24 frames of end lag
Yeah... so it's basically an up tilt you fast fall into the ground now.
If you don't tech a Marth fair/nair/bair into the ground you can take a tipper with a greater degree of reliability now. That's scary as ****. And it also seems more plausible for him to tech chase aerials which ground people now as well... wasn't feasible for him at all before.
Neutral Air seems solidly safe on shield now and for a move that's active for roughly 15 frames it's killing freakishly early, I think they may have changed the sound effect because it slashes loudly as it hits people now, instant tingles er'ry time (may be to do with damage increase). Don't do a standard get up from the ledge anymore, heck even get up attacks will lose, and those 3 frames of less ending lag from before plus the length of active frames gives you enough reactive leeway to try to cover rolls too.
Now here's the bummer.
Lucina gets it worse on both Up Tilt/Down Air, especially up tilt, by having greater knock back on the latter parts of up tilt and on the vertical up air sour spot.
Oh and down air will be about 2-3 frames safer on shield as well. RIP.
Just in general it's crazy how much 2 frames made a difference on the aerials and another 3 frames off up tilt... Marth's getting the types of hits he wants (sour or sweet spots) that are chaining longer because he has that much more time to dash or jump or whatever to continue things. If they do this again Marth's going to be over the top for sure lol.
Notice how those Sheiks refuse to abuse needles. The MU thread is bs and outdated, one of the commentators at Ito's scene referenced our thread saying its even smfh. We went back and changed it asap because its silly.
The reality is that he IS very good. I think this patch kind of finalized it, but I was of this belief the last time he got buffed. But now? He's in a really good spot. He's in a good spot I think, a very playable character who can do well against a lot of characters but doesn't like....well, do what Brawl Marth did, aye! Perhaps you can take him up again and do well, mhm -_0I could do with a real solid shot of reality. I feel like Marth is just... so good...
Up Tilt... oh man up tilt.
Back hit is setting up for up airs/aerials/maybe even smash attacks of the tipper variety nearly all the time. It chains into itself at low percent by turning around between hits. Up Tilt -> Up Air -> Up Air -> Up Tilt rinse repeat is KIND OF A THING TOO.
Down Air's 4 frames off landing is pretty significant I'm finding. We now have a fast fall landing aerial that can be just as long horizontally as it is vertically below us. 0.7x modifier on hit lag on a 11 damage move like this is pretty nice. The sour spot sends directly upwards and doesn't exactly scale knockback too well
Angle=0x50, KBG=0x46, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x28 on vertical sending down air, with 24 or more frames of end lag
vs
Angle=0x64, KBG=0x64, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x34 on sour up tilt behind him, with between 28 to 24 frames of end lag
Yeah... so it's basically an up tilt you fast fall into the ground now.
If you don't tech a Marth fair/nair/bair into the ground you can take a tipper with a greater degree of reliability now. That's scary as ****. And it also seems more plausible for him to tech chase aerials which ground people now as well... wasn't feasible for him at all before.
Neutral Air seems solidly safe on shield now and for a move that's active for roughly 15 frames it's killing freakishly early, I think they may have changed the sound effect because it slashes loudly as it hits people now, instant tingles er'ry time (may be to do with damage increase). Don't do a standard get up from the ledge anymore, heck even get up attacks will lose, and those 3 frames of less ending lag from before plus the length of active frames gives you enough reactive leeway to try to cover rolls too.
Now here's the bummer.
Lucina gets it worse on both Up Tilt/Down Air, especially up tilt, by having greater knock back on the latter parts of up tilt and on the vertical up air sour spot.
Oh and down air will be about 2-3 frames safer on shield as well. RIP.
Just in general it's crazy how much 2 frames made a difference on the aerials and another 3 frames off up tilt... Marth's getting the types of hits he wants (sour or sweet spots) that are chaining longer because he has that much more time to dash or jump or whatever to continue things. If they do this again Marth's going to be over the top for sure lol.
vs the Top 20 (because lists are fun):,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
