Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Luco]

Wait what? Really? I actually used to play in there so much with my friends in Kaillera.

Anyways, How has Robin improved in this patch? His Down Grab got a really good buff and now they can combo pretty nicely to jab and other moves. Does that help him? Or does he still ''suckk''?

He finally forces you to respect him at 80%+ with a grab, which is really really important and good for him. On the flipside, he still has awful ground mobility options, and being down a special or two after a while can be crippling when your neutral and dead zone issues are still so heavily present.

with customs speed thunder is disgustingly fast - greninja shuriken levels of such. Not sure if checkmate is available to him with speed thunder though?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I still don't know how to make people respect Robin at low % though. Gave him a whirl last night and got bodied every match by a Luigi. (Fireballs cancelling out everything except Thoron = ugh.)

Admittedly I haven't exactly put a lot of work into Robin of late, and I won't deny he's improved with his buffs, but he's still got a long way to go IMO.

 

[wedl!!]

reflet still isn't the best character, but her reward actually means something at later percents because she has better kill setups and a good throw game (making up for her poor grab). before you had to get lucky with arcthunder or get lucky with a levin aerial (or not go on fd/smashville like every player ever)

Not sure if checkmate is available to him with speed thunder though?

it's still a thing, just much more difficult to set up. i don't play with customs so i don't know how much less stun arcthunder has with it, but i'm assuming it's shorter? normally you can just use arcfire/get a grab read anyways, unless checkmate implies you're using arcthunder to get the grab.

 

[Ikes]

yea, but zss has semi decent neutral (in comparison to mk). that's basically how she beats sonic.

my statements that people overestimate reward>safety don't apply in a game where so few characters have great advantaged states but neutral is so important. smash 4 is really an oxymoron of a game if you think about it long enough.

isn't her paralyzer fireball-levels of being able to completely dominate neutral? thats how it's always felt for me.

 

[wedl!!]

zero suit doesn't have a good enough grab or safe enough pokes (aside from nair) to have a "great" neutral by traditional standards.

if characters realistically won neutral with one button, luigi would have the best neutral in the game.

 

[Smog Frog]

its miles beyond fireball at dominating neutral

 

[David Viran]

zero suit doesn't have a good enough grab or safe enough pokes (aside from nair) to have a "great" neutral by traditional standards.

if characters realistically won neutral with one button, luigi would have the best neutral in the game.

Bair and Zair are also the truth. Dsmash is legit as well.

 

[Shaya]

ZSS has a pretty fantastic neutral with the single short fall of needing to wait for the apex of her jump to achieve a lot of it. That's around half a second, and she's vulnerable then.
However, she has SHAD which is the 50/50 ZSS players haven't really implemented yet (I mean a 50/50 if you've let someone put themselves in a position they can punish the jump). She can single hit fair, uair, bair and dair before landing. Those 3 former ones naturally come out almost as low to the ground as possible.

Otherwise...
Zair: basically the short hop single laser Falco wishes he had; combos into grab/dash attack.
Nair: long range, disjointed, low landing lag tool that leads into just about everything.
Forward tilt: pretty long range, extra disjointed heels, low end lag (safe on shield spaced effectively).
Jab: 1 frame
Back Air / Wave Bounce: back air is also a long range aerial that is safe on shield. The animation keeps her pretty safe during the start up. While you're worrying about this and she's facing backwards she can wave bounce paralyzer which due to her high aerial mobility can bounce her 3 swords length away (moving during the cool down of the move). This is actually very very very very good and tends to be what I tout as the future/only way to play ZSS' neutral game (well, an aerial focused one at least).
Paralyzer can be safe on shield, but only at a fair distance, the wavebouncing part of above while people have to respect bair makes it almost always safe in that dynamic. But assuming an opponent lets you charge this, it can be safe. But it definitely isn't out camping anyone with it. Can make some character's approaches harder but why use paralyzer for this over zair?

 

[PK Gaming]

Wait what? Really? I actually used to play in there so much with my friends in Kaillera.

Anyways, How has Robin improved in this patch? His Down Grab got a really good buff and now they can combo pretty nicely to jab and other moves. Does that help him? Or does he still ''suck''?

Unfortunately, it's not really a consistent combo grab, though you have a ton of advantage after use. Arcthunder is really strong now, and he got a few quality of life buffs here and there. Still waiting on a proper follow up on whether he's a decent choice in tournaments, but I feel like he's much better than before.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Not to mention Flip Jump basically requiring the opponent to sit (in shield, lol burying) and wait for Zamus to complete the jump lest they get kicked at a speed of wtf mph from a massively disjointed leg, and even then she suffers no lag at all if she lands with it without pressing buttons WHAT, with a Ftilt ready to swat anyone noticing she didn't attack with it and trying to attack her again.

 

[Shaya]

Oh I just had some data clarification.
ZSS down-b is invincible frames 3-13.

Japan frame data had me so confused (slash was wrong). I thought it was frame 13 to 19 and somehow she was really hard to hit prior to that.
Why do you even bother trying to combo ZSS?

However, I do genuinely like that instead of trying to frame trap an air dodge against ZSS like any other character, jumping into her with an air dodge is the only "follow up"/counter that stops her getting away (because of the auto footstool).

Yeah man, my true combo against ZSS.
Up Air, Up Air, Jump Air dodge, Up Air.
So good.

And I will not accept a Pikachu saying they get out of disadvantage like ZSS does, ever again (although his is more apt at turning the situation around + getting to the ground faster, high rage QA near the top of the screen can KO too).

 

[RedBeefBaron]

That's an option. If the Lucario thinks you're going to do it, he can roll/jump away and punish your regrab/landing with an Aura Sphere though.

In theory you can also HP down and out from the ledge to spray him, do damage, and push him back and then use the second HP to snap the ledge again. Do thrown aura spheres reach under the ledge to punish this?

 

[Pyr]

And people were complaining about frame 3 Nairs breaking combos earlier. =D

But, seriously, ZSS Down-B might be the best move in the game. It's just so good.

 

[C0rvus]

Robin is certainly better off with his new buffs. It makes him a more fully realized character. His fundamental flaws remain the same, and those just naturally make him a pretty poor character. Mobility is so important in Smash, and being the slowest with little to make up for it so easily lets the opponent dictate the neutral and the flow of the match. Add to that terrible OoS options and a bad disadvantaged state, and you have a character that cannot afford to mess up, yet has little to do to keep control of the pace of the match. The top characters have either great neutral (Rosa, Sheik), very skewed risk-reward or advantaged states (Luigi, Meta Knight, ZSS), high speed and pressure (Fox, Sonic), great frame data or disadvantaged state (ZSS, Sheik, Mario) or a combination of these things. Robin has none of them. His reward is better, but that's all the patch changed. It is very welcome, but it changes little.

 

[Fatmanonice]

EL's right. You're putting our liege and his kingdom in danger.

Edit: As long as ZeRo, M2K, and reddit scrubs think he's bad and as long as he keeps losing online we'll be fine.

I want my hitboxes and autocancels!

Both him and Lucina are wildly underrated for some odd reason despite getting enough buffs to pack a nude beach since last year. It's just weird to me. Metaknight's in the same boat and I got chewed out last time I pointed that out in this thread about a month ago. How good do these characters need to get for people to take them seriously? Granted, I'm aware there's always some degree of bias involved. Per Smash tradition, characters like Peach and Lucario will likely be considered underrated until Smash 5 but what baffles me is how characters that have literally been made better by the creators of the game overtime are still largely dismissed. We have so many characters that are almost entirely different from how they were in the original release but I feel like the feelings towards who has potential and who doesn't has mostly been unchanged by a lot of players. Like, it makes my eyes cross and a dribble of blood run out my nose when some people still suggest Duck Hunt could eventually be top 5 and Charizard is still one of the worst characters in the game. It's like most people ignore the patches aside from the nerfs to the alleged top ten and it's maddening to say the least./rant

 

[Asdioh]

Pugwest's Marth just won a 55 person weekly in Massachusetts, beating the Sonic who usually beats him

since we've been talking about Marth so much lately.

 

[C0rvus]

False was also playing Marth at our local tonight. Watched him body Keitaro. He may have gone Marth the whole tournament, he was playing very well. Jab to fsmash and up tilt to fsmash happened. People are going to know he's good, guys.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Off the Marth topic, I just watched DunnoBro DA a can offstage, then kept shooting it (it was moving to the left where TC1 was, as villager), until it exploded and stagespiked him.
Some crazy tech, which leaves me to think about what kind of character duck hunt, pacman, shulk, and other "special snowflakes" will end up to be.

 

[Blobface]

It's just like Falco Laser!

-Everyone
I'm pretty sure a piece of Ffamran's soul dies every time this is said.

On topic: A lot of people posting MU charts have put the Ganon matchup as favorable matchup. MK mains have explained already, but I'd like to hear everyone else's reasoning.

 

[C0rvus]

Ganon isn't good. Plenty of characters can lame him out, especially without customs. I think Ganon has no place in high level play, but I'm a bit of a pessimist. There's plenty I don't know about the character, but nothing impresses me. "I move slow but I hit hard." Doesn't evoke fear beyond lack of an understanding of the character.

 

[Ffamran]

-Everyone
I'm pretty sure a piece of Ffamran's soul dies every time this is said.

Sold my soul already when I became a mod. Didn't steel it for a second chance. Updating Falco's frame data thread is a pain... New terms, new variables, new descriptions... Bleh. Still can't find who to use for hit stun. Either Palutena/Duck Hunt or Robin/Sonic/Roy since their weights are the average if you do things right or wrong... mostly involves whether or not the Mii Fighters (medium weight) are considered separate entities. Mario works, but Mario's not really the average weight... He's a chubby plumber of 98 units which if it's kg, then Mario's 216 lbs... Isn't Mario like 5 ft something? That's obese.

 

[Vipermoon]

I believe Marth destroys Ganon (maybe not destroy but definitely wins) I have no idea why Shaya's Marth MU chart didn't show that,

 

[NegaNixx]

Ganon isn't good. Plenty of characters can lame him out, especially without customs. I think Ganon has no place in high level play, but I'm a bit of a pessimist. There's plenty I don't know about the character, but nothing impresses me. "I move slow but I hit hard." Doesn't evoke fear beyond lack of an understanding of the character.

You're not wrong, last time I saw a Ganondorf at high level was Scatt at Smash and Splash vs. Ally. He has some tricks yeah, especially with customs, but Ally was all over him. Admittedly it's Ally but he never seemed in danger. The only time he was under threat was when Ally messed up or off of a good tech. Whenever Scatt took an exchange it wasn't quite "Scatt won it", it was "Ally lost it".

Ganondorf falls like that to a lot of characters. He can only change the tide if the opponent messes up. Ganondorf doesn't win, X Character just loses. That's not a good thing as far as match ups are involved.

 

[FullMoon]

On topic: A lot of people posting MU charts have put the Ganon matchup as favorable matchup. MK mains have explained already, but I'd like to hear everyone else's reasoning.

When it comes to Greninja, we zone Ganondorf out pretty badly and make it really tough for him to approach. Ganon is also combo food and Greninja can rack up damage on him fast. The fact that we also have pretty good kill power also means Ganondorf might not live long enough to make use of rage (Up-Smash just barely kills him above 100% and that's when we have no rage ourselves, if we reach 100% we'll be killing you at 88% with it). Then there's the obvious things like how Greninja runs circles around Ganon with ease.

Most mistakes Ganon makes are also pretty punishable with dash grab and Greninja's throws place him in a pretty bad position and allows us to juggle him pretty badly. In general Greninja's neutral and advantage are pretty overwhelming for Ganon.

Hydro Pump also messes with Ganondorf's recovery pretty badly and while he can try to edgeguard us with things like Up-Air, mixing up recovering high against Ganon is often not much of a risk because he's so slow.

Ganon has the thing of being able to kill Greninja in like 3 strong hits, but getting those hits in the first place is going to be tough.

I would say the MU was +1 in our favor before, but with the shuriken buff making Ganondorf struggle even more to approach us, it can probably reach +2 for us now.

 

[C0rvus]

Okay maybe I should put it another way. Ganondorf isn't a character who beats characters so much as a character who beats players. All characters do this to some extent, but that is Ganondorf's bread and butter. He needs to outplay his opponent or find a couple chinks in their armor to do much of anything. Fortunately for him, he doesn't need very many opportunities to close a stock.

That said, he really doesn't win many MUs, if any; and that's part of his design and his big balancing factor. I think the result of this is that the character isn't good. Players may be able to make waves with him, but that's indicative of the player's ability to find his opponents' openings. That's why he has no place in high level play.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Just got bopped by a Marth who Ftilt->Tipper fsmashed me at the ledge.
Just a PSA, know where to DI when fighting Marth. That is all.

 

[Vipermoon]

Just bopped someone using Ftilt->tipper Fsmash at the ledge. What a noob.

Nah kidding that wasn't me.

But I did do a Fthrow to tipper Fsmash on a Shield Shulk earlier today which felt amazing. Man I miss that combo so hard.

 

[Mario766]

Seriously when you see a Ganon beat someone, it's usually off some mistakes or a really good read, not because Ganon is some amazing character.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Mainly directed to @ Shaya and @ Vipermoon because I see them bring it up a lot, but how good is SHAD/why is it useful? I'm asking because I just finished testing it out with Kirby and found some nice things. His short hop is relatively low, while his aerials have a bit of start-up, so the only aerial he can use is B-Air (f6). It's so low that B-Air ends up frame cancelling, and doesn't come out if it's fast falled.

If Kirby fast falls D-Air to HUP Cancel, he lands so fast that the game takes a frame or two to switch his mouth's texture back to normal. I'll gather frame data on this later, but from what I can tell, Kirby is landing 1~3 frames after the airdodge ends, with no landing lag, giving him every grounded option he has.

Is this useful at all for him? I'm assuming SHAD is used to potentially dodge attacks and then punish, right?

EDIT: Actually, Kirby's expression is stuck for a while. Around six or seven frames, it seems. Also, I can consistently frame cancel Kirby's B-Air without the airdodge due to the muscle memory it gave me.

EDIT2: RAR SHAD FC B-Air is a fun approach tool, combos into dash grab even when spaced, and combos into U-Tilt at close range.

 

[Ikes]

EXCUSE ME?

HE'S NOT JUST THE KING OF DARKNESS, HE'S THE KING OF COMEBACKS

 

[Zionaze]

Mainly directed to @ Shaya and @ Vipermoon because I see them bring it up a lot, but how good is SHAD/why is it useful? I'm asking because I just finished testing it out with Kirby and found some nice things. His short hop is relatively low, while his aerials have a bit of start-up, so the only aerial he can use is B-Air (f6). It's so low that B-Air ends up frame cancelling, and doesn't come out if it's fast falled.

If Kirby fast falls D-Air to HUP Cancel, he lands so fast that the game takes a frame or two to switch his mouth's texture back to normal. I'll gather frame data on this later, but from what I can tell, Kirby is landing 1~3 frames after the airdodge ends, with no landing lag, giving him every grounded option he has.

Is this useful at all for him? I'm assuming SHAD is used to potentially dodge attacks and then punish, right?

EDIT: Actually, Kirby's expression is stuck for a while. Around six or seven frames, it seems. Also, I can consistently frame cancel Kirby's B-Air without the airdodge due to the muscle memory it gave me.

I really only see SHAD as a mixup approach simply because its predictable like rolling.
One of my friends plays Mario and he picked up this nasty habit of only approaching with SHAD > Nair and it became really easy to punish him. I told him this will never work at a tourney level, so he tried to prove me wrong by doing it at my local scene.

At first I was baffled because the opponent couldn't grasp the timing but after the first stock, every time my friend attempted SHAD he got heavily punished.

You really have to throw these out sparingly or else it becomes really telegraphed.

 

[DD_]

You really have to throw these out sparingly or else it becomes really telegraphed.

Just like anything else, it's a tool you can work into your game as a mix up option or to punish a predictable move your opponent will make in neutral, but it's not something you can rely on to solve all of your problems :D

It does however give access to some unique things that allows you to get some fun stuff out of using it (like Marth/Lucina 1 hit nair)

 

[Routa]

So... Who wants to talk about Wii Fit Trainer? He/she has got very nice buffs lately. Her/his off-stage game is great and her/his customs make shielding a bad option in a game where shields are so stronk.

So... Who is she/he good against?

 

[Shaya]

SH AD works as long as your opponent is fearing an attack (mix up)
Or is trying to throw a horizontal poke at you thinking they just nullified movement in the process (reactive approach tool that's incredibly smart)

It's an approach to me as it's what I'm opting to do over fairing a projectile or walking and jabbing it as I would in Brawl.

In ZSS' case anyone who knows the match up knows two things
1. Punish the jump
2. Forward Roll, which is also really good for punishing the jump

SH AD beats BOTH OF THOSE THINGS.
Crazy.
But yeah, ZSS SH ADs for pseudo walling purposes/defensively. Otherwise a mix up for trying to get a landing up air or back air.

Marth is purely using it aggressively.
I mean... you could sh air dodge someone trying to dash attack you...
but why wouldn't you just attack them instead as our stuff hits people on the ground and is disjointed?
And honestly, who in their right mind is approaching Marth anyway?

 

[TriTails]

I'm sure I have been told this but I forgot. How do you punish ZSS' Flip Jump?

Seriously when you see a Ganon beat someone, it's usually off some mistakes or a really good read, not because Ganon is some amazing character.

To be honest. 'Off some mistakes' IS how you beat people.

Don't make a mistake and basically anyone can't kill you. Ever. Heck, off some mistakes IS how you land hits.

At least. That's what I think.

 

[Vipermoon]

IKR? You run off-stage and you fast fall. That's better than approaching Marth.

Back on topic, I would like to add in addition to these things that SHAD is great for me against projectiles. I also like to cross people up (get behind them) with SHAD spaced Bair. I'd get kills off of that too.

Sometimes I tomahawk with SHAD. But yeah overall, no one should be using this too much. It's a mix-up.

The patches did help Marth's SHAD a lot though (it was of course already good) because landing lag reductions.

Edit: @ Aunt Jemima We need to have some kind of database on which aerials hitlag land (frame cancel) buffered out of SHAD.

 

[Emblem Lord]

For False to switch off Sheik usually means he feels that char has potential to be at least high tier.

 

[TriTails]

For False to switch off Sheik usually means he feels that char has potential to be at least high tier.

He himself said he's considering dropping Luigi and going to give Marth or Peach a shot so...

 

[DanGR]

I understand it's pretty early for this, and we're waiting to see how the Chakram change truly affects Mii Swordfighter, but I think Mii Swordfighter (with optimal height/weight stats) in the custom meta is going to be a solid character now. You don't gain that kind of versatile camping/combo/trapping/shield pressure/space control tool and not rise up several spots. It's like if you never used arrows and boomerang on Brawl Toon Link and finally got to use them. It's a whole different play-style, and I'm excited to see where it goes.

 

[outfoxd]

Off the Marth topic, I just watched DunnoBro DA a can offstage, then kept shooting it (it was moving to the left where TC1 was, as villager), until it exploded and stagespiked him.
Some crazy tech, which leaves me to think about what kind of character duck hunt, pacman, shulk, and other "special snowflakes" will end up to be.

Dhd prospects are a little grim, even though Dunno shows what you can do with exemplary can control. We just have some debilitating weaknesses that it doesn't seem like they're interested in addressing entirely. I like the jab adjustment, but the fsmash fix only partially works. Not sure why they only fixed shots 2 and 3.