Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Strong-Arm]

Thanks to the latest buffs I feel as if Marth/Lucina are becoming viable in the competitive environment. I wonder if they'll be buffed again...

Ryu has the potential. I think he'll be high tier but idk about top like a lot of people thought he would be day 1

 

[Browny]

I made my kill percent thread for a reason. Not linking it ATM because I am currently unable to update it for 1.1.0

You didnt account for DI though and it makes a major difference, and your numbers are not right, I know you did it on the 3DS though. You have Charizard at 133 and Mewtwo at 142.

I just tested it then, Charizard KOs at 126, Mewtwo KOs with no DI at 133. So theres a difference of 7 there, not 9.

With optimal DI it is drastically different, Charizard now KOs at 159 (!!!) And Mewtwos kills at 135. Can we just re-iterate how much of a gigantic change that is. Charizards uthrow kills 26% later while mewtwos kills a measely 2% when DI'd properly.

Mewtwo has the strongest uthrow in the game by a significant margin.

And thats not all! Not only is Mewtwos uthrow significantly stronger than Charizards, it still easily beats Charizards when landing on SV/BF platforms. Charizard now KOs at about 138% on those platforms while Mewtwo still KOs at 135%.

Can we please make that fact a sticky I swear I'm going to go through smash 4s entire competitive lifespan telling people this but I doubt they'll listen

 

[Ffamran]

If ryu hits your shield with a special cancelable move, he can go directly into TSRK which has f1 intangibility. That would be good shield pressure. There is absolutely no way I'm going to try and punish cr. Lk/jab1/st. Lp on shield or even roll away. Mega doesn't have the best OoS options (usmash f9?) But Ryu can kill you if he guesses correctly. If Ryu is behind you pressuring your shield with these moves, watch your shield health and wait for shield push to help you get out of TSRK sweetspot range. Sitting in shield with Ryu right there ready to cancel into TSRK is scary.

And then you watch out for the overhead shield break.

I meant more as in seeing Ryu's frame advantage data.

 

[Kofu]

You didnt account for DI though and it makes a major difference, and your numbers are not right, I know you did it on the 3DS though. You have Charizard at 133 and Mewtwo at 142.

I just tested it then, Charizard KOs at 126, Mewtwo KOs with no DI at 133. So theres a difference of 7 there, not 9.

With optimal DI it is drastically different, Charizard now KOs at 159 (!!!) And Mewtwos kills at 135. Can we just re-iterate how much of a gigantic change that is. Charizards uthrow kills 26% later while mewtwos kills a measely 2% when DI'd properly.

Mewtwo has the strongest uthrow in the game by a significant margin.

Oh, for sure. It's a huge change. The data isn't perfect but it's there for comparison's sake. And please don't tell me my numbers are not right unless there's something blatantly wrong with them. They should be right for the 3DS version (I did the testing on it there because I didn't have the Wii U version at the time).

Mewtwo's throws aren't weak by a long shot anyhow, IDK what ZeRo was talking about.

 

[Browny]

Yeah I actually messaged him, I'm really annoyed that someone as smart as him can get something so massively wrong. He is literally talking about a difference in roughly 50% in KO strength by saying its weaker than Sonic.

I also added after that, Mewtwos uthrow still kills earlier than Charizards even when zards lands on SV/BF platform.

I wish people gave that move more credit

 

[PK Gaming]

I still doubt mario is better than luigi, sure luigi loses a few more matchups, but the fact that mario has almost exclusively 50:50s makes it still an uphill battle for him to win any sort of tournament whereas Luigi strides through many MUs with ease and only has troubles with some specific tricky ones.

"Exclusively 50:50" is a bit of a stretch. He destroys the characters that don't matter and does pretty well against most of the characters. His matchup spread against the tournament staples is much better than Luigi's.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

You didnt account for DI though and it makes a major difference, and your numbers are not right, I know you did it on the 3DS though. You have Charizard at 133 and Mewtwo at 142.

I just tested it then, Charizard KOs at 126, Mewtwo KOs with no DI at 133. So theres a difference of 7 there, not 9.

With optimal DI it is drastically different, Charizard now KOs at 159 (!!!) And Mewtwos kills at 135. Can we just re-iterate how much of a gigantic change that is. Charizards uthrow kills 26% later while mewtwos kills a measely 2% when DI'd properly.

Mewtwo has the strongest uthrow in the game by a significant margin.

And thats not all! Not only is Mewtwos uthrow significantly stronger than Charizards, it still easily beats Charizards when landing on SV/BF platforms. Charizard now KOs at about 138% on those platforms while Mewtwo still KOs at 135%.

Can we please make that fact a sticky I swear I'm going to go through smash 4s entire competitive lifespan telling people this but I doubt they'll listen

Is there a reason Mewtwo's U-throw doesn't KO that much later when DIed while zard's does? I'm assuming its because his U-throw isn't influenced by DI as much as Zard's is.

 

[Ghostbone]

Is there a reason Mewtwo's U-throw doesn't KO that much later when DIed while zard's does? I'm assuming its because his U-throw isn't influenced by DI as much as Zard's is.

Mewtwo's sends them straight up, so you can only DI left/right.

Charizard's sends them at a diagonal angle, so it can be "vectored" in as well as DI'd.

 

[Yikarur]

Is there a reason Mewtwo's U-throw doesn't KO that much later when DIed while zard's does? I'm assuming its because his U-throw isn't influenced by DI as much as Zard's is.

the closer a move is to 90° the less effect has DI.

 

[Ikes]

"Exclusively 50:50" is a bit of a stretch. He destroys the characters that don't matter and does pretty well against most of the characters. His matchup spread against the tournament staples is much better than Luigi's.

the only people he destroys are the same people that Luigi has even better MUs against save potentially Mega Man and Villager.

 

[Yikarur]

why do you compare Mario and Luigi? They are so different that you cannot really compare MU's of them imo.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

the only people he destroys are the same people that Luigi has even better MUs against save potentially Mega Man and Villager.

King Dedede. Luigi beats him, but Mario hard counters him.

Also Samus. Samus vs Luigi is probably even, but Mario ruins her.

And Little Mac. Luigi probably loses to Little Mac, but Mario beats him decisively.

That's just some notable examples off the top of my head.

 

[Thinkaman]

I snuck in a bit of Robin play, and was impressed. Easily the most buffed character. Fair is solid, d-throw is amazing, thunder is okay, elthunder is good, arcthunder is asinine. Robin can legitimately force approaches and then play his game.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Alright, Kirby's buffs.

I'm not sure where to start, so I'll just jump into F-Throw. Our new F-Throw alleviates one of our biggest problems, which is shields. Getting grabbed by Kirby is devastating, as he can gain a major lead just from one F-Throw. This is a huge buff, especially considering Kirby's grab is f6 and has relatively good range on his dash grab and pivot grab, along with having the 2nd best pummel in the game. Combine this with Inhale now being almost as good as Wario's Chomp, and shielding against Kirby is now death.

F-Throw's combos are borderline ridiculous, as he can now start his insane combos off a grab. F-Throw > U-Air starts combos into U-Tilt, allowing Kirby to rack up major damage without much commitment. The combo does 14%, which is the same as Diddy's D-Throw > U-Air, but has much more combo potential compared to Diddy Kong, and can get even stronger when you factor in pummel damage. F-Throw > D-Air, while character dependent, is really stupid when it works. Kirby no longer has to commit to D-Air, and can get all of it's combos from a grab. The most notable factor with this is F-Throw > D-Air > Regrab, allowing a psuedo-chaingrab on most characters until 30%, after which he can start combos with U-Tilt. F-Throw > F-Air does 17%, and can lead into a WoP, jab locks, tech chases, and even another grab depending on the character.

For example, against Sheik, here's a combo Kirby can now do:

F-Throw > D-Air x3 > Pummel x2 > F-Throw > Needle Storm (fully charged) > U-Air > D-Air > U-Tilt (Sourspot) > U-Air > Upper Cutter, dealing 90% in total.

Depending on the character Kirby is fighting, the damage he can get off F-Throw is really stupid. Then you factor in custom moves, and it's just... dumb. Grounding Stone is pretty much the best Stone variant now that F-Throw is buffed, as it allows Kirby to do ridiculous combos on opponents. The reason for this is because U-Tilt/U-Air > Footstool > Grounding Stone is a jab lock, with Grounding Stone doing 16%. Using this, we can get combos such as...

F-Throw > D-Air x3 > U-Tilt (Sourspot) > U-Air > Footstool > Grounding Stone > Arc Thunder > Footstool > Grounding Stone > Pummel x3 > U-Throw, dealing around 103%

F-Throw > D-Air x2 > F-Throw > U-Air > U-Tilt (Sourspot) > Footstool > Grounding Stone > Slightly Charged Shield Breaker, dealing around 60% and potentially killing.

Pummel > F-Throw > D-Air x2 > F-Throw > U-Air > U-Tilt (Sourspot) > Inhale Jump > Mach Tornado, dealing around 62%.

It's character dependent, but the damage output is just absurd. Without using Copy Abilities, we can get 40~60% depending on the character, although extremely fast fallers such as Fox will be utterly demolished, taking around... 90% just for getting grabbed.

Moving on to the other buffs, Inhale, Jab and several Copy Abilities got altered during this patch. Inhale is now nearing Chomp levels of speed, allowing Kirby to combo into the move itself, such as U-Tilt > Inhale, and giving him an incredibly potent command grab. Jab can no longer be escaped during the transition, allowing Kirby to get around 14%+ from his full jab combo without any interruptions, which is amazing considering it's one of the fastest jabs in the game (Captain Falcon speeds). The Copy Ability buffs are funny, although a bit odd.

Robin's Thunder buffs allow Kirby to be much safer and gather much more damage with the spells, and are much more useful given the new combo throw. Arc Thunder is literally god, as Kirby can combo into nearly his entire moveset using it, can F-Throw > Arc Thunder to extend combos, can jab lock punish with it, and it got a bug fix, too. Previously, if Kirby exhausted the ability while using Arc Thunder, the projectile would simply disappear while travelling, leaving it to be useless. Now, the projectile stays out while Kirby loses the ability. This allows for something bit absurd, though. Due to the buffs on both Arc Thunder and Inhale, if Arc Thunder is going to exhaust the ability, Kirby can Arc Thunder > Inhale to get it back right away.

Pit's Arrow buffs allow Kirby to use his full hop and multiple jumps to shoot... six arrows while airborne. It happens in rapid succession and can be angled, allowing Kirby to create a wall to keep Pit away. It looks pretty funny, too!

Greninja's Water Shuriken buff is a bit odd. Kirby's initial airborne Water Shuriken sends him so high that it could function as another mid-air jump, while any airborne Water Shuriken sends Kirby slightly backwards. Kirby can charge the Water Shuriken to reach Greninja's level for double Water Shuriken out of a short hop, with the slight charge making the shurikens do 6% and 5% respectively. Along with that, Kirby can time it so that he can double fully charged Water Shuriken out of a short hop, which is surprisingly efficient for creating a wall. However, the timing is strict and requires a bit of practice to get down.

Having a combo throw allows Kirby to confirm into several Copy Abilities, such as Charge Shot, Sun Salutation, Arc Thunder, Thoron, Pac-Man's Key, Giant Punch and more. This helps Kirby get more mileage out of his different abilities, which is nice.

Ehh... it's almost 2AM and I ended up getting sick near the end of my trip, so this post is pretty meh and isn't that extensive. It works as a general idea, though, so yeah...

I'll record some videos showing off stuff later tommorow, I'm tired.

edit: oh, also, if you condition the opponent to airdodge after F-Throw, just charge Hammer Flip and get like... 21% or something.

edit2: oh, and if Kirby pockets a bowling ball, F-Throw > Bowling Ball is a true combo and kills at 0% lol. asdioh found ultra amazing Kirby tech today, too. If you buffer a double jump out of Stone while wearing certain Copy Ability hats, Kirby flies around with his eyes closed.

~~~
Some random notes I took while labbing:

Spoiler

Kirby's 1.10 F-Throw Combos

General Note: It is mostly impossible to combo opponents after 30% if they DI away. It is recommended to use U-Throw/D-Throw or HUP Cancel F-Throw to frame trap the opponent. The opponent has three options during this -- Airdodge, Jump, or Attack. If they airdodge, most characters will airdodge into the ground until around 70%. If they double jump, they are now above Kirby, ready to be juggled. If they attack, Kirby can shield it or simply punish the landing lag. To punish accordingly, Kirby can simply foxtrot once, as he'll be out of range to get hit by most attacks, but close enough to punish any of the three options on reaction.

While it may seem a bit low, Kirby's throw combos can deal massive damage depending on the character, being able to do at least 40% on every character, and up to 100% on certain ones. Practice your throw combos to gain the most out of them!
-------

Sheik
--------

0% F-Throw >

D-Air (10%)
U-Air (14%)

Notes:

D-Air leads into two important moves, U-Tilt and Grab. Kirby can F-Throw > D-Air > Grab up to three times to get Sheik to 30%, and then follow up from there, or can start a standard U-Tilt combo. U-Air must be fast falled to combo. It doesn't lead into any true combos, and is generally useless at this percent.
~~~~~

10% F-Throw >

D-Air (10%)
U-Air (14%)
F-Air (17%)
N-Air (13/15%)

Notes:

D-Air functions the same as 0%. U-Air now functions similarly to D-Air and has follow-ups, but cannot regrab due to the grab timer. It still needs a fast fall to combo. F-Air is mainly for raw damage, but can lead into a regrab. N-Air can combo into Kirby's tilts if it is fast falled while moving forward, but hits the "sourspot" that does 8%. If Kirby is quick enough, he can hit the "sweetspot" that does 10%, but cannot combo off of it.
~~~~~

20% F-Throw

D-Air (10%)
U-Air (14%)
F-Air (17%)
N-Air (13/15%)

Notes:

D-Air functions the same as 10%. U-Air functions relatively the same way as 10%, just with different timing on the combos. It still needs a fast fall to combo. F-Air now knocks down, so Foxtrot > D-Tilt can jab lock if they miss the tech. Once they're jab locked, do whatever you want. N-Air is the same as before, but has less strict timing for combos.
~~~~~

30% F-Throw >

U-Air (14%)
F-Air (9%)
Needle Storm (Fully Charged, 19%)
Upper Cutter (15%)

Notes:

Around here is when F-Throw becomes unreliable. U-Air and Upper Cutter can be DI'd away, while F-Air no longer connects reliably.

Needle Storm can be used here to get around 19%. If they don't DI, a forward double jump Needle Storm can combo into U-Air, which then combos into U-Air/D-Air/Upper Cutter to rack up damage. If they DI away, a forward double jump Needle Storm will do 19%, but cannot be combo'd off of.

Needle Storm combos from F-Throw until around 50%, too.
__________


Rosalina and Luma
------------------------

0% F-Throw >

D-Air (10%)
U-Air (14%)
F-Air (17%)
N-Air (15%)

Notes:

D-Air and U-Air can combo into the standard things Kirby would want, such as U-Tilt. D-Air can lead into a regrab, too. F-Air can WoP into itself, while N-Air has no combos. If you can combo into Inhale, you can use Copy on Luma to kill it incredibly early.
~~~~~

10% F-Throw >

D-Air (12/14%)
U-Air (14%)
F-Air (17%)
N-Air (13/15%)

Notes:

U-Air remains the same in execution, but has slightly altered combos and follow-ups. F-Air requires Kirby to buffer a double jump forward and buffer the move itself to land. If it does work, however, it can combo into itself and Upper Cutter for massive damage. D-Air requires Kirby to buffer a double jump forward and the move itself to land. Whether Kirby can use the landing hit of D-Air to combo or not depends on whether Luma is getting hit and extending hitlag, as it'll prevent Kirby from fast falling. N-Air remains the same.
~~~~~

20% F-Throw >

D-Air (12/14%)
U-Air (14%)
F-Air (17%)

Notes:

It's exactly the same as 10%, but double jump F-Air and D-Air are much easier to perform. Kirby can double jump U-Air if he wants, although U-Air itself still works
~~~~~

30% F-Throw >

D-Air (12/14%)
U-Air (14%)
F-Air (17%)

Notes:

It's exactly the same as 20%, but double jump F-Air and D-Air are even easier to perform. It remains this way until around 55%. Kirby can no longer true combo past 25% if they DI away, though.
___________

okbye

 

[Ikes]

so can anyone confirm that shields take longer to recharge now? I heard someone say it and I want to know if it's true.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Is it now safe to call Kirby a hard counter to Olimar? Once he lands an inhale, Olimar is completely shut down. It's absolutely ridiculous how good Kirby's pikmin toss is. He can throw them faster, they hit harder, and they all have knockback like purples. Kirby's pikmin eat through Olimar's and leave him with basically no options whatsoever.

Previously, the MU was not considered a hard counter because Kirby still had difficulty landing the inhale. Now it seems like that will be a lot easier for him. Plus, his options are significantly better even when he hasn't inhaled Olimar.

The buffs to Palutena could hurt Olimar as well, because she was already a very tough match-up for him.

 

[TriTails]

If there's one thing wrong about OliKirby, it's how Kirby just lobs them straight ahead and the pikmins die after their hitboxes are gone .

It's... painful to watch.

 

[Radical Larry]

How many MUs has Ganondorf gotten better with thanks to his buffs? With a power shield, he can completely wreck opponents approaching from the air with D-Smash, which comes out relatively fast and hits very hard.

But which MUs has Ganondorf gotten better in?

 

[FSLink]

If there's one thing wrong about OliKirby, it's how Kirby just lobs them straight ahead and the pikmins die after their hitboxes are gone .

It's... painful to watch.

I think it's obvious that Kirby is a heartless monster. See Return to Dreamland and Triple Deluxe, he just devours freaking Waddle Dees even when they're just peacefully sleeping.

I really like the fthrow buffs, it makes him closer to the heartless monster he really is.

Like I posted in the Kirby change thread:

Not sure if noted, but the animation for when Kirby eats an item is faster too thanks to the Inhale buffs.

Accidentally eating Wario's bike during that matchup no longer keeps him super free to any punish at least.

I'm sure it'd have a niche use in some other matchups as well.

 

[Zionaze]

Would AC lasers affect falcos neutral game drastically?

 

[Ghostbone]

Would AC lasers affect falcos neutral game drastically?

He'd literally be a top tier.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Where's the idea coming from that Mario is top 5?

Like, come on guys. He ain't bad this time around ... but top 5? That's just silly.

 

[adom4]

How many MUs has Ganondorf gotten better with thanks to his buffs? With a power shield, he can completely wreck opponents approaching from the air with D-Smash, which comes out relatively fast and hits very hard.

But which MUs has Ganondorf gotten better in?

Olimar will probably improve the most, he has to tech every choke after 60-70% or else D-smash KOs from center stage.

 

[Ghostbone]

Where's the idea coming from that Mario is top 5?

Like, come on guys. He ain't bad this time around ... but top 5? That's just silly.

Ally
Mario's getting consistent placings everywhere

Character having good matchups across all the top tiers.

After 1st and 2nd (Sheik and ZSS) the other 3 top 5 characters are up for debate.
I'd say the candidates are Rosalina, Sonic, Mario, Ness, Diddy Kong, Fox, Meta Knight, Pikachu.
The 1st 3 seem the most likely to me, where would you rate mario out of all of them?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I would not put Mario in the top 10.

Mario's getting consistent placings everywhere

Character having good matchups across all the top tiers.

When / where / how is any of this actually happening?!?

 

[bc1910]

Wow, lots to respond to. Sorry for quoting some posts from like 3 pages back but I wanted to weigh in on some discussion.

Here's 10 characters I think are better than Greninja:



(this is not ordered by the way)

You could also add , , , if you want to.

@ Smog Frog Yeah I agree with all these picks. Top 10 is still a way off for Greninja. Top 15 though is not out of the question. Of this list you can argue Greninja is better than Falcon and Yoshi fairly easily, and I can see Luigi falling a lot in time. It's a also not clear what will happen with MK. But yeah, top 10 is a stretch, top 15 is quite likely, top 20 should be braindead obvious to anyone who knows what mobility + good projectile means in Smash.

@FullMoon I'm sure your ROB woes are due in no small part to you mostly playing online. ROB can be an absolute nightmare in even the slightest bit of lag. Assuming you struggle with him offline too (idk if there are any ROBs in your scene) you may be giving him too much respect in neutral as a result of online matches. It really is a case of picking up the gyro and camping him (works even better with the new shurikens) and abusing his horrible disadvantage state. Steer clear of staying in his face; Nair is really dumb and ROB's hoo hah will end us quickly at certain percents. I don't think it's an easy MU by any means but it's not one we should lose decisively.

I would say this is a matchup that Falcon loses. Especially with new shurikens.

You'd think it'd be MK mains saying he's top 5. He's top 15 imo if you think he's top 10 or 5 you must know some good **** about this character and his MUs.

Forgot to do this MU table thing my bad.

+3

+2

+1

+0

-1
(?)
-2



???????

I play both characters and I think greninja could easily be +1 vs diddy. Some general things:

The shuriken buff is huge here as it will pressure Diddy into being more aggressive than he wants to in general.

Greninja will lose to diddy's fair up close but he can beat it out with his own with proper spacing thanks to the disjoint. Diddy's d tilt won't link to more d tilts, d smash, and grab as easily at early % against greninja due to his fall speed, he can fast fall to the ground and jab or roll back, similar to how he deals with Mario's up tilt combos.

Greninja gets more reward off of clean hits than diddy. Diddy also struggles with slippery whiff punish characters in general as good as his shield pressure is. Greninja should be trying to dodge and punish more than he shields here.

Greninja can deal with diddy's peels in neutral quite well. His speed and projectile allows him to pressure Diddy hard on the pluck. He also has perhaps the best mobility stats to safely take peels off the ground using z scoops, due to his epic ground speed and excellent empty hop. Once he has the peel in hand, he bodies Diddy in neutral with the new shuriken and hydro pump, harassing Diddy until he can attack with a glide toss combo.

A greninja who understands item fundamentals should have this, IMO. Thoughts?

Just wanted to note that a common trend in the MU discussions was Greninja slightly beating top 15 characters.

Greninja mains are a little prone to overrating his MUs but we don't go around saying he wins them all or anything like that, we just tend to be quite generous with even MUs that could probably be slightly disadvantaged. However, other people are actually starting to note that Greninja does well against their character. What's more, literally ALL his MUs improved with the last update, even against super buffed characters like Robin, because such an important part of Greninja's gameplan is back. Greninja's MU spread is solid.

On the subject of Kirby, he seems great now. I said from day 1 that Kirby needed his Brawl Fthrow and I think I was right. Kirby strikes me as a high tier in customs now, not too sure where he stands in customs off (Upper Cutter is really important) but he's a lot better. Kirby is nearly as scary as Luigi up close at low percents.

 

[warionumbah2]

I'm shocked that people think MK is top 5. Even with the results he's getting i just don't see MK on the same level as Sheik,ZSS,Sonic and Fox.

 

[Routa]

If you ask me top 5 is: Sheik, ZSS, Fox, Sonic and Mario. Mario might have the best MU spread in game (he is maybe the only character that does not get Hard countered by anyone). He does fairly well against Sheik and ZSS. He might not have the results, but he has the theory and MU spread for being in top 5.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Mario might have the best MU spread in game

 

[bc1910]

If you ask me top 5 is: Sheik, ZSS, Fox, Sonic and Mario. Mario might have the best MU spread in game (he is maybe the only character that does not get Hard countered by anyone). He does fairly well against Sheik and ZSS. He might not have the results, but he has the theory and MU spread for being in top 5.

Sheik does not get hard countered by anyone. Her MU spread is the best by a fair margin I think.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Who does Mario lose too besides Sheik and Luigi who was just nerfed? Marth and Lucy? Roy maybe?

Serious question.

 

[Shaya]

I could do with a real solid shot of reality. I feel like Marth is just... so good...

Up Tilt... oh man up tilt.
Back hit is setting up for up airs/aerials/maybe even smash attacks of the tipper variety nearly all the time. It chains into itself at low percent by turning around between hits. Up Tilt -> Up Air -> Up Air -> Up Tilt rinse repeat is KIND OF A THING TOO.

Down Air's 4 frames off landing is pretty significant I'm finding. We now have a fast fall landing aerial that can be just as long horizontally as it is vertically below us. 0.7x modifier on hit lag on a 11 damage move like this is pretty nice. The sour spot sends directly upwards and doesn't exactly scale knockback too well . I'd say it's almost like the up tilt you fast fall with in terms of follow ups... lol.

Angle=0x50, KBG=0x46, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x28 on vertical sending down air, with 24 or more frames of end lag
vs
Angle=0x64, KBG=0x64, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x34 on sour up tilt behind him, with between 28 to 24 frames of end lag

Yeah... so it's basically an up tilt you fast fall into the ground now.

If you don't tech a Marth fair/nair/bair into the ground you can take a tipper with a greater degree of reliability now. That's scary as ****. And it also seems more plausible for him to tech chase aerials which ground people now as well... wasn't feasible for him at all before.

Neutral Air seems solidly safe on shield now and for a move that's active for roughly 15 frames it's killing freakishly early, I think they may have changed the sound effect because it slashes loudly as it hits people now, instant tingles er'ry time (may be to do with damage increase). Don't do a standard get up from the ledge anymore, heck even get up attacks will lose, and those 3 frames of less ending lag from before plus the length of active frames gives you enough reactive leeway to try to cover rolls too.

Now here's the bummer.
Lucina gets it worse on both Up Tilt/Down Air, especially up tilt, by having greater knock back on the latter parts of up tilt and on the vertical up air sour spot.
Oh and down air will be about 2-3 frames safer on shield as well. RIP.

Just in general it's crazy how much 2 frames made a difference on the aerials and another 3 frames off up tilt... Marth's getting the types of hits he wants (sour or sweet spots) that are chaining longer because he has that much more time to dash or jump or whatever to continue things. If they do this again Marth's going to be over the top for sure lol.

 

[Wintropy]

The brief sojourn into R.O.B.'s competitive viability from yesterday has made me curious.

Serious question: why is R.O.B. regarded as a distinct threat to competitive players? I do mean distinct, as in, distinguished from other characters that have the potential to be good, yet whom are widely regarded as "manageable" matchups, in that he is a character that seems to come up consistently - and, to me, unexpectedly - in discussions of characters that players have difficulty with.

The survey in the OP has him quite firmly in the Top 20 characters, which I think is worth a mention in itself, but then I see players - players that, for all intents and purposes, I know are very good - who swear that R.O.B. is a difficult matchup. It just seems to be R.O.B., too: I don't think I've ever seen a character so relatively underrepresented that is so ubiquitously regarded as a fearsome foe. Is there some piece of the puzzle I can't see? Is it due to a lack of matchup knowledge, in the vein of Olimar, or is R.O.B. secretly a sleeper hit whose time has yet to come?

I was speaking to a very good player - maybe even the best - in my local scene, and he said that he can handle just about any matchup in the game. Except R.O.B. I asked why this is, and he says he can't even quantify it: he just, in his own words, "can't figure out" R.O.B. I play a bit of R.O.B., and while I am no expert by any means, I think his toolkit - again, like Olimar's - is very different than most characters, which seems to be an issue for players that aren't used to the matchup. Is it as simple as that which makes R.O.B. a common outlier, or is there some magical elixir to R.OB. efficacy that I have yet to learn? If the latter, why is he so seldom seen at top-level events?

This could also be a good way to open up a dialogue on the question, "To what extent does matchup (un)familiarity play a role in determining a character's viability?" I am honestly curious here, could any R.O.B. players tell me why he's so universally cited as a distinct threat, or any non-R.O.B. players who have difficulty with the matchup explain why this is?

 

[Vipermoon]

I could do with a real solid shot of reality. I feel like Marth is just... so good...

Up Tilt... oh man up tilt.
Back hit is setting up for up airs/aerials/maybe even smash attacks of the tipper variety nearly all the time. It chains into itself at low percent by turning around between hits. Up Tilt -> Up Air -> Up Air -> Up Tilt rinse repeat is KIND OF A THING TOO.

Down Air's 4 frames off landing is pretty significant I'm finding. We now have a fast fall landing aerial that can be just as long horizontally as it is vertically below us. 0.7x modifier on hit lag on a 11 damage move like this is pretty nice. The sour spot sends directly upwards and doesn't exactly scale knockback too well . I'd say it's almost like the up tilt you fast fall with in terms of follow ups... lol.

Angle=0x50, KBG=0x46, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x28 on vertical sending down air, with 24 or more frames of end lag
vs
Angle=0x64, KBG=0x64, FKB=0x0, BKB=0x34 on sour up tilt behind him, with between 28 to 24 frames of end lag

Yeah... so it's basically an up tilt you fast fall into the ground now.

If you don't tech a Marth fair/nair/bair into the ground you can take a tipper with a greater degree of reliability now. That's scary as ****. And it also seems more plausible for him to tech chase aerials which ground people now as well... wasn't feasible for him at all before.

Neutral Air seems solidly safe on shield now and for a move that's active for roughly 15 frames it's killing freakishly early, I think they may have changed the sound effect because it slashes loudly as it hits people now, instant tingles er'ry time (may be to do with damage increase). Don't do a standard get up from the ledge anymore, heck even get up attacks will lose, and those 3 frames of less ending lag from before plus the length of active frames gives you enough reactive leeway to try to cover rolls too.

Now here's the bummer.
Lucina gets it worse on both Up Tilt/Down Air, especially up tilt, by having greater knock back on the latter parts of up tilt and on the vertical up air sour spot.
Oh and down air will be about 2-3 frames safer on shield as well. RIP.

Just in general it's crazy how much 2 frames made a difference on the aerials and another 3 frames off up tilt... Marth's getting the types of hits he wants (sour or sweet spots) that are chaining longer because he has that much more time to dash or jump or whatever to continue things. If they do this again Marth's going to be over the top for sure lol.

IMO Lucina might actually have the better Utilt.

She doesn't move forward or backward which is now pretty inconsistent for Marth.

Her damage on the front hit more than reaches halfway through Marth sour/tipper which is incredible.

Her late Utilt does crazy damage is now very nearly as strong as Marth's game-release backward tipper Utilt.

The back hit does so much damage it's acually stronger than his release tipper back hit.

She doesn't have those 5% "body" hits Marth does which may be a bad thing since Marth gets more follow-ups off those.

But I think overall with these details plus the consistency of follow-ups might give her the better Utilt.

 

[Routa]

As I said "Might" have. I didn't say he has, but I said he MIGHT have.
You got any other gifs to share or anything els to "say"?

 

[Zelder]

I would not put Mario in the top 10.



When / where / how is any of this actually happening?!?

Okay at this point you have to actually explain why you wouldn't put Mario in top 10, because most people would disagree with you. You can't just drop a one liner and then leave it at that.

edit: Also Shiek has the best MU spread in the game.

 

[Smog Frog]

a spread of 50/50 with some 55/45 sprinkled in and a couple of 45/55 is undoubtedly a great matchup spread. but you have to realize, most people dont start shaking with fear when you mention . people will probably mention they hate or first. probably wins every matchup(or goes even with 1 or 2 characters) and wins +1 at least vs most of the cast, only losing 2-3 matchups.

in terms of matchup spreads between the 3, i'd say it goes in this order:




is a definite top 10 character, mostly by virtue of all his matchups being winnable. most other characters are in because they win most of their matchups.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

a spread of 50/50 with some 55/45 sprinkled in and a couple of 45/55 is undoubtedly a great matchup spread. but you have to realize, most people dont start shaking with fear when you mention . people will probably mention they hate or first. probably wins every matchup(or goes even with 1 or 2 characters) and wins +1 at least vs most of the cast, only losing 2-3 matchups.

in terms of matchup spreads between the 3, i'd say it goes in this order:




is a definite top 10 character, mostly by virtue of all his matchups being winnable.

Agreed. How do we feel about greninja being an honorable mention here? Very solid, even or slightly better against most of the cast with the buffs IMO. Really only loses to Shiek, Sonic, and Fox. The problem is those three are common tournament threats however. But he still has few bad matchups with nothing unwinnable.

Edit: I also don't think he soundly wins over quite as many as Mario, Shiek, or Sonic. Also how is Rosalina not on the list of best matchup spreads? Who does she lose to?

 

[Balgorxz]

I'm shocked that people think MK is top 5. Even with the results he's getting i just don't see MK on the same level as Sheik,ZSS,Sonic and Fox.

MK does pretty well against sheik and luigi, that makes people over react, MK has some really bad MU with some high and mid tiers that doesn't allow him to be THAT good, but since he is good against the tryhard meta they give him more credit.

 

[Baskerville]

Isn't Sheik bad for MK?