Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Wintropy]

I'm still kinda confused what footsies are. So basicially, during neutral game, it's when you move around the stage?

Yes.

You know how in a boxing match, both fighters move around the stage and try to get into the right stance to get a hit in? That's the essential crux of it. It's the act of moving around the stage and trying to get into a state of advantage in the neutral game.

EDIT: I am vastly oversimplifying it, but that's the most rudimentary way I can define it.

 

[Gamegenie222]

I'm still kinda confused what footsies are. So basicially, during neutral game, it's when you move around the stage?

http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702

Footsies handbook read it all of it despite it being for SF it can apply for damn near every FG including smash.

 

[Speed Boost]

So since I have had a hard time finding a character that suits me, I have decided to possibly take up Dark Pit. The Pits are pretty decent at almost everything, right? Pretty good mobility, decent frame data, good disjoint, good grab game, jumps to work with, combos, etc. I figure that while playing DP, I discover what aspects of playing him I enjoy and then apply those to find the "perfect main". Then, Dark Pit makes a decent secondary due to his largely near-even MU spread.

Does this plan make shred of sense to anyone or have I lost it? I'm willing to try almost anything, this lack of character dedication is an ongoing problem that hurts my ability to improve at this game. Thus far, I've simply decided I like "zoning" but I haven't been able to decide if I actually like to zone or if I need a sword character as a crutch for my lack of understanding of zoning.

Also @ Smog Frog I know that 's Zair can confirm into tilts and even up Smash at kill percent. I've fought Biddy enough times to know this for a fact.

I main Dark Pit, so I'm biassed but I think anyone would enjoy the character.
He is a solid fundimentals based characters with balanced risk vs reward. Most would describe him as "honest" because of this. He has cool traps with arrows that setup juggles and up smash/forward smash.

He has some good non committal approaches/baits in NAir and FAir. Kill throw, super armor side B, down throw into up air until 90% ish. What's not to like, right? Plus, he is pretty easy to get started with.

 

[Ffamran]

OR, we all can use the Smash Academy: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-dictionary.374538/

The dictionary doesn't have "neutral", "advantage", and "disadvantage", but it has everything else, though. At the same time, Emblem Lord is explaining it a bit more and focused his primer on those concepts. It's like you can define what a car is, but how do you work the car? It might be simple logic, but some people want more than "drive". Some people want to know how to heel-toe, drift, change tires, change oil, etc.

 

[A_Kae]

http://sonichurricane.com/?page_id=1702

Footsies handbook read despite it being for SF it can apply for damn near every FG.

While that's another good resource for learning footsies, it's totally focused on street fighter. It's fine for more advanced players who know the game well to read that and apply it to smash, but I'd say it's best to stick with something written for smash.

Edit: For someone on that guy's level, I mean. It can be hard to read something for a totally different game and apply it to another if you don't know the game you want to apply it to.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Just tried out Lucas's zair. Wtf? Most of the thing does a full 4%? There's barely a sourspot. It's insanely good.

With Samus, you have a small sweetspot that does 4% and if you space it wrong, just 1%. And she doesn't have any confirms out of it either. It has a little more range than Lucas's, but still. It's kind of ridiculous how bad Samus is in this game. Everything she can do, someone else does significantly better. With DLC, she doesn't even have the best zair anymore....

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Just tried out Lucas's zair. Wtf? Most of the thing does a full 4%? There's barely a sourspot. It's insanely good.

With Samus, you have a small sweetspot that does 4% and if you space it wrong, just 1%. And she doesn't have any confirms out of it either. It has a little more range than Lucas's, but still. It's kind of ridiculous how bad Samus is in this game. Everything she can do, someone else does significantly better. With DLC, she doesn't even have the best zair anymore....

It seems like Samus suffers from a case of "anything you can do I can do better" syndrome. Which is where everyone else in the cast takes turns to sing that line at her.

That said, she can't even confirm zair into Charge Shot or something?

 

[Gamegenie222]

While that's another good resource for learning footsies, it's totally focused on street fighter. It's fine for more advanced players who know the game well to read that and apply it to smash, but I'd say it's best to stick with something written for smash.

Edit: For someone on that guy's level, I mean. It can be hard to read something for a totally different game and apply it to another if you don't know the game you want to apply it to.

True you do make a good point though. I tend to read it alot cause I play both smash and traditional FG's and love applying it to all types of gameplay all the time.

 

[Smog Frog]

doesnt look like it from a couple minutes in training mode. however, it does seem that she might be able to confirm into screw attack. not the best but at least its something.

 

[Teshie U]

Samus zair is long, but her height and fall speed pretty much remove it from her neutral game. It takes so long too jump, fall and then get a zair out low to the ground that any small character would already be overlapping her.

At point blank it probably confirms into something, but who is going to get hit by it? Uair sets up better for pretty much anything.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I can't believe I forgot about this

Remember how I said Ike wins the Sonic MU?

Remember how somebody asked how Ike is supposed to beat a Sonic like StaticManny's?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P-N0tsZI7U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhP-uXjadec

How about Ike beating him both Winners and Grand Finals? And this was before the most recent patch when Ike's Uair reached Rosalina tier (the Uair at about the 2 minute mark will be killing post patch for example in the second video)

They both pulled out Roy at one point, and Ryo pulled out a Lucina as well but I think that's the best evidence I can give. The top player on both sides, with Manny making it to 9th at CEO and EVO.

Ike doesn't win by much, but he does win the MU. If you struggle with fighting Sonic, he's an option for ya.

EDIT: AND they played on Smashville the whole time. Ike didn't even get to play on Battlefield, Miiverse, or Dreamland which are all excellent stages for Ike in general and give him more options.

 

[Emblem Lord]

All this talk of footsies I decided I'm gonna add more to my footsies primer later tonight guys. Look forward to it. Gonna be super focused on movement options and applying traditional footsie concepts to Smash.

Starring

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I can't believe I forgot about this

Remember how I said Ike wins the Sonic MU?

Remember how somebody asked how Ike is supposed to beat a Sonic like StaticManny's?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P-N0tsZI7U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhP-uXjadec

How about Ike beating him both Winners and Grand Finals? And this was before the most recent patch when Ike's Uair reached Rosalina tier (the Uair at about the 2 minute mark will be killing post patch for example in the second video)

They both pulled out Roy at one point, and Ryo pulled out a Lucina as well but I think that's the best evidence I can give. The top player on both sides, with Manny making it to 9th at CEO and EVO.

Ike doesn't win by much, but he does win the MU. If you struggle with fighting Sonic, he's an option for ya.

 

[rm88]

Since Kirby got briefly mentioned - as a Kirby main, even with this buff, I think he's a rock-solid mid-tier at best. We just got our Brawl f-throw back, and it's not like Kirby was high tier in Brawl. What's the consensus on Kirby? I think it's pretty remarkable how he manages to stay in the middle of most tier lists

 

[san.]

I can't believe I forgot about this

Remember how I said Ike wins the Sonic MU?

Remember how somebody asked how Ike is supposed to beat a Sonic like StaticManny's?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-P-N0tsZI7U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhP-uXjadec

How about Ike beating him both Winners and Grand Finals? And this was before the most recent patch when Ike's Uair reached Rosalina tier (the Uair at about the 2 minute mark will be killing post patch for example in the second video)

They both pulled out Roy at one point, and Ryo pulled out a Lucina as well but I think that's the best evidence I can give. The top player on both sides, with Manny making it to 9th at CEO and EVO.

Ike doesn't win by much, but he does win the MU. If you struggle with fighting Sonic, he's an option for ya.

Post-patch uair would've definitely killed.

Rage Ike uair kills at like 70 at the middle of the ground and top blastzone.

Wish Ryo played like this more often and just murdered with safe play than styling on his opponents.

 

[oldkingcroz]

Well, seeing that these personal MU charts are becoming the norm (and I'm sure all these images are fun to look at), I'll spout mine, on my main ROB. Info comes from ROB boards wip MU chart, tournament speculation, and personal experience at locals & online.


against the supposed top tier:

Opponent's favor (in order from least manageable to somewhat manageable):


Even-ish:


Slight advantage:



To put it bluntly, I am surprised ROB is rated so highly on the "top 15". Yes- he has tourney results, is one of the better item users, has a good throw game, and has good aerial disjoints- but he suffers against pressure. Pikachu, Villager, Mario, Rosalina, and Sheik have stellar defensive walling games, and completely outclass ROB in one of his best attributes. Simply put, they can force approaches. Fox, Zero Suit, Meta Knight, Yoshi, Captain Falcon, and Luigi all have great combo potential and when they do get in, it's very rough for ROB. Zero Suit, Luigi, and Falcon despite being mobile monsters and combo fanatics are kind of messed up by gyros. They also can't recover quite as well, as the other top tiers (which is good for ROB with one of the most useful spikes in the game). Still, they can mess up ROB in the air and are rewarded plentifully off throws.

Sonic and Diddy were nerfed more than ROB. An on-stage gyro and lasers probably work the best on these two (Sonic's spin dash technique is halted and Diddy cannot hold 2 items in his hand). As for the Pits, I am surprised they are rated this high, as well. Nairo is good with them, yes, but these two have odd multihit frame data and very exploitable laggy specials. Like ROB, they aren't terrible, but they don't follow the same offensive based play that the other top tiers do. ROB can camp Wario and Lucario, which is nice. ROB doesn't have a problem with the bike and Lucario can be killed in a last ditch effort up throw (if he doesn't die to a Dsmash/up air/reflected projectile at 100). Don't know enough about ROB vs. Brawler/ Olimar, but they are both pretty well rounded characters that aren't to be underestimated.

ROB is pretty average, in his kill power, combos, and defensive game. Unfortunately when the top tier is just so rushdown/ safety/ camp oriented, ROB can't do much. He's viable, but I can imediately think of 8 characters who can compete better with the top:
()

 

[Man Li Gi]

Can we actually talk about Ganondorf? When I mean talk, I don't mean the skin deep analysis consisting of "yeah he's slow, but when he gets in, he hits like a truck". OK, I have to ask, how many of you been hit by a truck? I'm assuming not many. Why? Well, to get hit by a truck means that you must've messes up so royally that you almost deserved it or the truck driver did something so reckless/unpredictable that there was no way to avoid it (which rarely happens).

Different question, how many of you been behind a truck and then passed it up? Has the truck ever sped up to catch you or did you keep progressing until the truck was so far away from you that there was no way for the truck to get in front of you?

If you're wondering my absolute fascination with trucks (lol) it's because it relates to Ganon in more ways than one. When you play against Ganon, you immediately want to pass it up as it will he just keep trying to dragging the match. When you don't pass it up on time, you may have to stay behind a bit and sometimes it may be hard to pass it up right then and there, but there will an opening in which the "truck" can't cover. You take that opening and then what can the truck do?

How to fix the issue of truck? Well unless you fundamentally change the car itself, there's no helping it.

Right now, Ganondorf hits like a 18 wheel truck while moving like one. Sadly, his range is like that of a delivery truck, thus undermining those attributes (not canceling the attributes completely). Like a truck, all his moves are/have to be telegraphed far in advance to be effective.

So yes, Ganon hits and plays like a truck, but all you guys with your McLarens, Lamborghinis, Bugattis, Teslas, Ferraris can go 0 to 60 in a couple seconds, but the truck is stuck fumbling to get out the gate.

All I want us Ganon to have the range in all his hitboxes, to be proportionate to his hurtbox. That could mean adding disjoints and what not, but really does that matter? The truck is still the same truck, so it will get outpaced by cars no matter what. Also, with the brakes sucking so hard (up b), though it does kind of work. So sad for the trucks.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Post-patch uair would've definitely killed.

Rage Ike uair kills at like 70 at the middle of the ground and top blastzone.

Wish Ryo played like this more often and just murdered with safe play than styling on his opponents.

To add to this for the benefit of others: Ike's Dash Attack doesn't clank. The person who attacks at the same time? They clank and go through all of that, Ike kinda just doesn't and can punish the opponent as they are still clanking.

Kinda handy against Sonic and his Spin Dash.

 

[Ikes]

truck dlc when

 

[Wintropy]

As for the Pits, I am surprised they are rated this high, as well. Nairo is good with them, yes, but these two have odd multihit frame data and very exploitable laggy specials. Like ROB, they aren't terrible, but they don't follow the same offensive based play that the other top tiers do.

I agree with you for the most part, but I need to draw attention to this. Pit's specials wouldn't be his main drawback: these moves should only ever be used situationally and judiciously, to the extent that the opponent can't just exploit the lag.

Arrows rarely, if ever, factor into neutral. Fullhop arrows can be a useful mixup or ranged pressure option (e.g. to jump over Sheik's needles and snipe her when she's vulnerable or to hit Rosalina directly from a safe distance); this is useful because, in addition to mid-air being a relatively safe vantage point (if you have the confidence or wherewithal to shoot off an arrow in neutral, you probably have it on good authority that the opponent can't just punish your jump in the first place), it negates any lag if the final frame comes out before Pit touches down.

Upperdash Arm is NEVER used unless you can definitely get the hit. As an approach option, it's very punishable, a good Pit will never use it to cover ground. It's best used (debatably its only use) as a crossover mixup or as a Hail Mary KO option if the opponent drops their guard and you're right next to them. It's really more of a counter than anything else. If used correctly, lag will never factor into it, because you only ever use it when you know your opponent can't shield or react and you can get the KO.

Guardian Orbitars I honestly rarely see. The only time I would feel safe using it is if I can read and punish a projectile that can kill me (e.g. Samus's Charge Shot, Mega Man's f-smash); even so, I would usually use it as a mixup tool, since its use is dependent on its efficacy as a surprise tactic, or as a landing option if I know my opponent will punish my landing with a projectile. It does have its niche uses - as a mid-air shield, to block Ness's recovery - but it's overall just a niche tool with a very small range of opportunities for use.

Pit's specials are all universally the same: situational. You're right that his specials have a good deal of lag and can be punished as a result, but the fact that they exist to buffer Pit's moveset, rather than define it, means it isn't an adequate citation of why Pit isn't a high-tier character. His difficulty getting the kill, reliance on clever tactics over offensive capabilities, relatively even matchups and lack of tournament representation is what keeps him from being high-tier.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I may have misinterpreted you. If you mean Pit's specials hold him back because they're situational, ergo difficult to get mileage out of in the same way the current high-tiers do (rather than saying Pit's specials hold him back explicitly because he relies on them, which can be exploited due to their inherent weaknesses), then yeah, I definitely agree with you. I hadn't thought of that before, but it's a sound case.

()

Do you mean customs on, by any chance? Otherwise there's no way I, a Palutena main, can justify her being anywhere near the top, heh~

 

[Pazx]

Tier list time? Tier list time. The thing about the ongoing "top 5" discussion is that I think characters 2-5 are incredibly close and you can shuffle the order around without it actually meaning anything. Being 3rd in this game is hardly any better than being 5th. That said, I think ZSS sneaks into second with Pikachu, Fox and Sonic all having a claim to top 3. Rosa and Ness probably can make a claim to top 5 but top 3 is looking out of the question right now.

Other talking points:

• I think WFT is REALLY GOOD, and by really good I mean potentially viable.
• Order within tiers is less and less strict the further down you get, but it's there.
• Zelda buffs are actually pretty good. I think she's a functional (if bad) character now, and I think it makes for a larger D- tier.
• Samus and D3 both have things going for them but on the whole they are pretty underwhelming.
• Samus potentially being the worst character in the game is a testimony to the balance of this game. It's pretty good.
• Sheik is not really in a tier of her own, but she is definitely better than the S- crew.
• Fox is really good and he wasn't hit by the patch hard at all. His jab is functional now and jab jab upsmash is a thing.
• I don't think the Sonic nerfs are significant.
• Luigi is still good. The changes he received this patch were good for the game, in my opinion. He now has a lot of mixup potential in exchange for a slightly more difficult time actually getting the grab.
• The "B" in B tier stands for big and unorganised.
• Yoshi is overrated by most.
• I'm the most negative person about Mii Brawler on these boards but right now I'm not sure where he belongs. Tiny Brawler might be in the bottom of A tier whilst regular Brawler probably fits towards the lower end of B tier.
• C+ is separated from C tier due to FE/DK buffs and tournament results.
• Marth and Ike buffs are really good. I think Ike is the better character.
• DK buffs are awesome. I still don't think he's a great character but he goes okay.
• Gunner might belong in C rather than C+, representation and results pushed him/her/them/it up.
• C tier just happens to be the "good in theory" tier. I'd like to have more faith in these characters but I can't.
• Uncertainties in C- are the placements of Kirby and Bowser Jr. Kirby buffs are pretty cool though and that helps solidify his placing in my mind, it might even be a tiiiiny bit low.
• I'm not entirely sure how good Swordfighter is right now but I think I've placed him pretty accurately. Not sure how significant the buffs are.
• Roy is overrated by many.
• I think there is a significant difference between C and D tiers. I might have a few characters on the wrong side of the fence, but I think viability drops off after C.
• Robin is an uncertainty due to the buffs. They definitely improve her, but I don't know if she gets pushed into C tier for it.
• Same for Ganon.
• The biggest question marks in this tier list are the placements of Ryu and Shulk. I really don't know where they belong.
• Ask me questions! Discuss placements! Don't say "X should be higher" though with no reasoning behind it because everyone in this thread will ignore you.

Top Tier

S:


S-:


A+:


A:


A-:



High Tier

B:
/


Mid Tier

C+:


C:


C-:



Low Tier

D:


D-:

My thoughts on Pac-man's MU spread. I'll talk a little about a few of the really bad MUs.

ROB- Can do almost everything just as well as Pac-man does. When it comes to keep away, ROB easily wins the war of attrition. The laser pierces all of Pac-man's projectiles. Even the hydrant. The gyro clanks with every Bonus Fruit and Hydrant and still retains an active hit-box after. If you rush him down and manage to get in, he can be hard to pin down, his nair is a free get out of jail card due to Pac-Man having a poor OOS game unless the opponent is directly ontop of them.

Wario- On reaction, he can eat the Bonus Fruit and the hydrant, even while its falling from being spawned. Which heals him and gives him one second back on his waft each time. Playing keep away is virtually useless.

MetaKnight/Kirby/Dedede - With their multiple jumps, these characters can linger in Pac-Man's blind spot, above and slightly behind/infront of him. Once they find their opening, they have strong tools to punish with. Pac really can't cover this space well without the bell or some hydrant launch angles.

Lucario - There isn't much to say about this. Pac-Man has no problem stacking up damage, but he struggles to seal the KO. Once rage/aura kick in Lucario can completely control the pace of the fight. Side-B gains massive range and, along with other moves, can one-shot the hydrant, reducing it to a non-factor. If Pac doesn't get the first stock, its a wrap.

This is potentially my worst matchup as ROB, I've switched characters specifically against Pac-Man in the past. Fortunately my local Pac-Main has a host of other characters and he doesn't seem to realise just how much I struggle here. IIRC ROB's nair doesn't beat bonus fruit or hydrant which basically robs (haha) him of one of his best tools. Laser is okay but you can shield on reaction. Gyro is still really good but if you lose Gyro control in this matchup you basically have to rush in and that's not something ROB wants to do.

Top 5 picks (tier position):
Top 5 picks (solo viability):

These both assume customs off (). Sheik needs no explanation. Other than her, I definitely think this game forces trade-offs between "countering" other characters and not getting countered. Mario is like the perfect examples of this. He doesn't outright slaughter anyone, but they also don't really get "countered" at all and so ends up being a great solo pick. Other characters like Rosa and Luigi beat lots of folks badly but also have some really hard MUs themselves. There are no MK/ICs who just walk all over everybody (though Sheik could get there I suppose) without ever losing to anything. Even such stellar characters as Fox/ZSS have losing MUs to overall-worse characters.

Also, RE: ZSS FWIW


That's impressive; which character(s) did ZeRo use?

Why is Pikachu less solo-main viable than Mario and Diddy? Who does he lose to? Does he lose to characters harder than Diddy loses to characters?

Edit:

Well, seeing that these personal MU charts are becoming the norm (and I'm sure all these images are fun to look at), I'll spout mine, on my main ROB. Info comes from ROB boards wip MU chart, tournament speculation, and personal experience at locals & online.


against the supposed top tier:

Opponent's favor (in order from least manageable to somewhat manageable):


Even-ish:


Slight advantage:



To put it bluntly, I am surprised ROB is rated so highly on the "top 15". Yes- he has tourney results, is one of the better item users, has a good throw game, and has good aerial disjoints- but he suffers against pressure. Pikachu, Villager, Mario, Rosalina, and Sheik have stellar defensive walling games, and completely outclass ROB in one of his best attributes. Simply put, they can force approaches. Fox, Zero Suit, Meta Knight, Yoshi, Captain Falcon, and Luigi all have great combo potential and when they do get in, it's very rough for ROB. Zero Suit, Luigi, and Falcon despite being mobile monsters and combo fanatics are kind of messed up by gyros. They also can't recover quite as well, as the other top tiers (which is good for ROB with one of the most useful spikes in the game). Still, they can mess up ROB in the air and are rewarded plentifully off throws.

Sonic and Diddy were nerfed more than ROB. An on-stage gyro and lasers probably work the best on these two (Sonic's spin dash technique is halted and Diddy cannot hold 2 items in his hand). As for the Pits, I am surprised they are rated this high, as well. Nairo is good with them, yes, but these two have odd multihit frame data and very exploitable laggy specials. Like ROB, they aren't terrible, but they don't follow the same offensive based play that the other top tiers do. ROB can camp Wario and Lucario, which is nice. ROB doesn't have a problem with the bike and Lucario can be killed in a last ditch effort up throw (if he doesn't die to a Dsmash/up air/reflected projectile at 100). Don't know enough about ROB vs. Brawler/ Olimar, but they are both pretty well rounded characters that aren't to be underestimated.

ROB is pretty average, in his kill power, combos, and defensive game. Unfortunately when the top tier is just so rushdown/ safety/ camp oriented, ROB can't do much. He's viable, but I can imediately think of 8 characters who can compete better with the top:
()

Ness beats ROB hard, imo. Very very bad matchup.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I just fought my first competent Ryu yesterday and I was like dammit Emblem Lord stop being right.

which character(s) did you use?

@ Wintermelon43 , it's okay,Sweetheat

Not a grammar nut (just look at my posts), but this made me giggle a bit for some reason.

 

[Wintermelon43]

which character(s) did you use?


Not a grammar nut (just look at my posts), but this made me giggle a bit for some reason.

The sweet heat hurt so much. It was scorching hot.

 

[TTTTTsd]

• Ask me questions! Discuss placements! Don't say "X should be higher" though with no reasoning behind it because everyone in this thread will ignore you..

UNDERSTOOD! I only have one inquiry, one related to G&W.

In the discussion of G&W (more in particular, the tier list) you state that viability drops at around D. Now, if we're putting G&W in there, I can't totally agree! Mostly due to his placement at EVO in a metagame that actively hurts him (I'm assuming this list is defaults, yeah?) I believe he is a lot stronger than what you would put here. While I can understand not wanting to overrate him, I would say...perhaps somewhere in the letter C? I can't figure out what subsection (+? -? That's the hard part!) I just find his placing to be more than, say, a large coincidence.

Not that I think he's an amazingly outstanding character, but he's been discussed in prior and he seems to be largely scorned and underestimated. From what I've seen and used of him, he seems okay. Not optimal, but okay.

Other than that it's mostly agreeable, which is the good news, although Roy being 2 segments down from Marth kind of miffs me (my gut tells me it should be one or in the same segment, but it's just a gut feeling so I won't press on it, consider it intuition and nothing more.)

I'm also unsure of Mario > Luigi but I'll take some more time to stew over it now that it's been brought up. Adieu! (Also grats on the first real elaborate full tier list of the thread!)

 

[Ghostbone]

MK has a shield and a forward roll and a heavy punish.
ZSS doesn't have a grab or a dsmash.

It's actually pretty straight forward lol

It's relatively simple to space ZSS's d-smash to catch MK"s forward roll

And if that happens he dies.

 

[FullMoon]

Out of curiosity, @ Pazx what do you think of the Greninja/R.O.B MU? That one is basically my personal hell but that's more about me than Greninja being bad at it I think, I was curious to hear what a ROB player thinks of it.

 

[san.]

I have a question for Charizard players: Is dthrow->uair reliable now that you can act a few frames faster? If so, then that is incredibly good then.

 

[Djent]

Why is Pikachu less solo-main viable than Mario and Diddy? Who does he lose to? Does he lose to characters harder than Diddy loses to characters?

I think his Luigi matchup is noticeably worse (not that Diddy does that well himself), to the point where I would advise Pika players to pick a different character against him. He also struggles vs. Ness and other niche characters (Ike, Olimar) which to my knowledge don't give Diddy much trouble. He is susceptible to counterpicking despite having several really important positive MUs (Fox, ZSS, Rosa). Diddy doesn't really lose noticeably to anyone despite not winning noticeably either (which makes both characters a bit like their Brawl incarnations, funnily enough).

 

[Ikes]

Tier list time? Tier list time. The thing about the ongoing "top 5" discussion is that I think characters 2-5 are incredibly close and you can shuffle the order around without it actually meaning anything. Being 3rd in this game is hardly any better than being 5th. That said, I think ZSS sneaks into second with Pikachu, Fox and Sonic all having a claim to top 3. Rosa and Ness probably can make a claim to top 5 but top 3 is looking out of the question right now.

Other talking points:

• I think WFT is REALLY GOOD, and by really good I mean potentially viable.
• Order within tiers is less and less strict the further down you get, but it's there.
• Zelda buffs are actually pretty good. I think she's a functional (if bad) character now, and I think it makes for a larger D- tier.
• Samus and D3 both have things going for them but on the whole they are pretty underwhelming.
• Samus potentially being the worst character in the game is a testimony to the balance of this game. It's pretty good.
• Sheik is not really in a tier of her own, but she is definitely better than the S- crew.
• Fox is really good and he wasn't hit by the patch hard at all. His jab is functional now and jab jab upsmash is a thing.
• I don't think the Sonic nerfs are significant.
• Luigi is still good. The changes he received this patch were good for the game, in my opinion. He now has a lot of mixup potential in exchange for a slightly more difficult time actually getting the grab.
• The "B" in B tier stands for big and unorganised.
• Yoshi is overrated by most.
• I'm the most negative person about Mii Brawler on these boards but right now I'm not sure where he belongs. Tiny Brawler might be in the bottom of A tier whilst regular Brawler probably fits towards the lower end of B tier.
• C+ is separated from C tier due to FE/DK buffs and tournament results.
• Marth and Ike buffs are really good. I think Ike is the better character.
• DK buffs are awesome. I still don't think he's a great character but he goes okay.
• Gunner might belong in C rather than C+, representation and results pushed him/her/them/it up.
• C tier just happens to be the "good in theory" tier. I'd like to have more faith in these characters but I can't.
• Uncertainties in C- are the placements of Kirby and Bowser Jr. Kirby buffs are pretty cool though and that helps solidify his placing in my mind, it might even be a tiiiiny bit low.
• I'm not entirely sure how good Swordfighter is right now but I think I've placed him pretty accurately. Not sure how significant the buffs are.
• Roy is overrated by many.
• I think there is a significant difference between C and D tiers. I might have a few characters on the wrong side of the fence, but I think viability drops off after C.
• Robin is an uncertainty due to the buffs. They definitely improve her, but I don't know if she gets pushed into C tier for it.
• Same for Ganon.
• The biggest question marks in this tier list are the placements of Ryu and Shulk. I really don't know where they belong.
• Ask me questions! Discuss placements! Don't say "X should be higher" though with no reasoning behind it because everyone in this thread will ignore you.

Top Tier

S:


S-:


A+:


A:


A-:



High Tier

B:
/


Mid Tier

C+:


C:


C-:



Low Tier

D:


D-:




This is potentially my worst matchup as ROB, I've switched characters specifically against Pac-Man in the past. Fortunately my local Pac-Main has a host of other characters and he doesn't seem to realise just how much I struggle here. IIRC ROB's nair doesn't beat bonus fruit or hydrant which basically robs (haha) him of one of his best tools. Laser is okay but you can shield on reaction. Gyro is still really good but if you lose Gyro control in this matchup you basically have to rush in and that's not something ROB wants to do.



Why is Pikachu less solo-main viable than Mario and Diddy? Who does he lose to? Does he lose to characters harder than Diddy loses to characters?

Edit:



Ness beats ROB hard, imo. Very very bad matchup.

Tink is most certainly not C tier, so I'll assume you put him there out of lack of knowledge of the character.

if we're going only by results, sure it makes sense. But there are a good handful of characters who could do very well in a competitive environment, but dont have the players to show for it. I generally consider these more or less an exception to the rule of "results" because otherwise there's pretty much no way to put them on a tier list at all. Or they'd just be in F tier, which wouldn't make sense.

 

[LancerStaff]

So since I have had a hard time finding a character that suits me, I have decided to possibly take up Dark Pit. The Pits are pretty decent at almost everything, right? Pretty good mobility, decent frame data, good disjoint, good grab game, jumps to work with, combos, etc. I figure that while playing DP, I discover what aspects of playing him I enjoy and then apply those to find the "perfect main". Then, Dark Pit makes a decent secondary due to his largely near-even MU spread.

Does this plan make shred of sense to anyone or have I lost it? I'm willing to try almost anything, this lack of character dedication is an ongoing problem that hurts my ability to improve at this game. Thus far, I've simply decided I like "zoning" but I haven't been able to decide if I actually like to zone or if I need a sword character as a crutch for my lack of understanding of zoning.

Sounds good to me. They lack any real weaknesses, but don't have any particular strengths.

Pit's obviously the better of the two, but Dark Pit has some matchups over Pit. One of the reasons Pit is so good is because his arrows are that much better. You can camp with them given the space, you can use them to tack on extra damage after a hit, and they're great at gimping. Dark Pit doesn't really get any of that...

If you're going to pick them up, there's two things to know. Fullhop arrows, and proper recovery. Fullhop arrows are as they sound, just fullhop and shoot right away and you'll "autocancel" them saving a little less then a sixth of a second on lag. Proper recovery is understanding the undersides of stages. Basically, your jumps and Uspecial will be guided to the ledge if you hit the right spots underneath the stage. Some are large, some are small. It's for the best if you grind 'em out instead of me trying to tell them to you.

They're actually very solid characters, especially together. IMO, they're A-, B+ at least.

 

[C0rvus]

I'm surprised to see Mario so low. He's widely considered solo-viable, yet he is placed below characters who are arguably not (Ness, Rosalina come to mind). I supposed it's because those characters win more matchups than Mario does, which I suppose is fair. I tend to weigh MU spread quite heavily in making my own lists. And my B tier is similarly large and unorganized lol. I think that's a good thing, there are so many characters just on the fringe of being top tier contenders! That's really cool.

I do find myself agreeing with Ikes, though. Toon Link is a pretty good character imo, but placing him is hard because we don't really know HOW good he actually is. I personally feel he has the potential to invalidate a few characters, but perhaps I underplay how hard it is for him to deal with shields.

Also sad to see that so many people think Samus is worse than Zelda. I admit I don't know the significance of her buffs, but Samus seems like a better character to begin with. She just has more options.

@ LancerStaff I know Pit is better, and I may end up just using him, but Dark Pit has twice the edge and I like his colors better.

 

[Ikes]

I still doubt mario is better than luigi, sure luigi loses a few more matchups, but the fact that mario has almost exclusively 50:50s makes it still an uphill battle for him to win any sort of tournament whereas Luigi strides through many MUs with ease and only has troubles with some specific tricky ones.

 

[Pyr]

So... Real quick... How is a 50:50, or a set of 50:50s, an uphill battle? I'd think pushing a ball along a bunch of flat pieces of land is easier then pushing it up a few hills 25% of the time.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

If x character has numerous bad match-ups, but all if them are practically winnable, would he/she be viable still?
I need to see the train of thought here.

 

[Smog Frog]

what are the matchups? how bad are they losing?

 

[Teshie U]

I have a question for Charizard players: Is dthrow->uair reliable now that you can act a few frames faster? If so, then that is incredibly good then.

Whats so great about Uair? Like for KOing or just as a low percent combo? He can already do up down and back throw into fair.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

which character(s) did you use?


Not a grammar nut (just look at my posts), but this made me giggle a bit for some reason.

I went DK. I just really didn't know the matchup. His mixup and punish game are so real.

 

[san.]

Whats so great about Uair? Like for KOing or just as a low percent combo? He can already do up down and back throw into fair.

For KOing around 70-80. I know DK and Ike can do something similar at the 70-80+ range. Charizard has one of the strongest uairs in the game.

 

[Ikes]

So... Real quick... How is a 50:50, or a set of 50:50s, an uphill battle? I'd think pushing a ball along a bunch of flat pieces of land is easier then pushing it up a few hills 25% of the time.

it is for both players

imagine a hill where both sides are just as steep and both players are pushing towards the top

it becomes purely a battle of skill, whereas luigi can admittedly cheese out some MUs and effectively have a "shallower slope"

 

[Baby_Sneak]

what are the matchups? how bad are they losing?

Since it's practical, it ranges from 65:35 to 45:55. And the actual characters could be anybody. I'm talking in general kinda