Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[RedBeefBaron]

So at the top level what matchups does Marth have easier than Roy that makes his viability better? I'm trying to understand these characters better. People have said their matchup spread is virtually the same, but people have said also that Marth is definitely better which doesn't make very much sense to me.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Every top tier match up for Marth add another -1 for Roy.

I'm oversimplifying but thats the gist of it.

 

[Tainic]

And grab followups.

Marth's Dthrow is kinda ok, at like 0-20/30% (chara dependant ofc) its just a free upair while till like 60/70% he can just fish for an airdodge and keep juggling his opponent by abusing his range to stay safe from punishment, not the best dthrow but not that ****ty really.

Imo Marth is the best FE swordsman in the game, even though Ike might be close to him, and by the next patch I do believe there are chances for us to see him get to top 20 or so. This patch was the icing on the cake, really, the days when Marth was a blue haired swordsman holding a butterknife are now over. (now he's holding a normal knife. )

Also is that me or is Marth safer on shield than Roy ? (Im basing that saying over my few matches with Roy so I'm pmuch just askin lol.)

 

[Wintermelon43]

can anyone tell me why Marth is like high tier now?

 

[SpottedCerberus]

can anyone tell me why Marth is like high tier now?

He isn't.

 

[Emblem Lord]

They are both among the safest chars in the game when used correctly.

For different reasons.

NUMBERS!!!! HITBOXES!!! MODIFIERS!!!

EYAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!

TUWAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!

can anyone tell me why Marth is like high tier now?

Can you do me a favor?

Cut it out.

Thank you.

 

[Wintropy]

@ Wintermelon43 , I don't main Marth and I will no doubt miss a few key details, but here's a layman's overview of Marth's strengths:

- Fast walk / dash speed
- Good footsies and setup options, e.g. jab -> f-smash, d-tilt -> shorthop f-air
- Tipper is incredibly strong, tipper f-smash can kill most characters at about 40%
- Good space control with sword's range
- Safe toolkit overall, especially with recent landing lag reductions
- Off-stage game is decent due to edgeguarding potential with fast, safe aerials, in addition to a swift, if rather mild in distance, recovery

If somebody like @Vipermoon64 or @ Emblem Lord wants to explain the finer minutiae, by all means, go right ahead~

 

[Wintermelon43]

@ Wintermelon43 , I don't main Marth and I will no doubt miss a few key details, but here's a layman's overview of Marth's strengths:

- Fast walk / dash speed
- Good footsies and setup options, e.g. jab -> f-smash, d-tilt -> shorthop f-air
- Tipper is incredibly strong, tipper f-smash can kill most characters at about 40%
- Good space control with sword's range
- Safe toolkit overall, especially with recent landing lag reductions
- Off-stage game is decent due to edgeguarding potential with fast, safe aerials, in addition to a swift, if rather mild in distance, recovery

If somebody like @Vipermoon64 or @ Emblem Lord wants to explain the finer minutiae, by all means, go right ahead~

I don't understand what some of the terms mean

 

[wedl!!]

i still have no idea how marth could even remotely be considered a low tier unless you ignore patch notes or only play for glory

a character as safe as him that is also great in neutral, is strong, and fast being called a low tier is a farce

 

[C0rvus]

I don't understand what some of the terms mean

That would explain a lot.

Basically, Marth is good at controlling space at mid range and keeping his opponent at that fixed distance. He walks fast, so he can use his tilts in a more mobile manner. He's pretty good at his job. he has good neutral and his long attacks are safe when spaced well.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Guys, we are supposed to be the most intelligent posters within the community.

Stop letting this man troll you.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

They are both among the safest chars in the game when used correctly.

For different reasons.

NUMBERS!!!! HITBOXES!!! MODIFIERS!!!

EYAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!

TUWAAAAAAAAAAAAHHH!!!

Can you explain this a bit? How do you play safely as Marth in comparison to Roy? Frame advantage on block for Marth vs shield push for Roy or something?

 

[Wintermelon43]

Guys, we are supposed to be the most intelligent posters within the community.

Stop letting this man troll you.

Well I'm intelligant enough to report your posts.

 

[Ffamran]

I don't understand what some of the terms mean

What terms? At least specify them. You can even Google them like "fighting game terms" which gets you something like this: http://shoryuken.com/glossary/.

i still have no idea how marth could even remotely be considered a low tier unless you ignore patch notes or only play for glory

a character as safe as him that is also great in neutral, is strong, and fast being called a low tier is a farce

Because ignorance. I mean, Diddy got nerfed, but he didn't get nerfed to the point where Samus and Zelda were better characters. He's not top 1, but he's top 10 or top 15 at the worse. There's also overreactions like Fox's jab change. Boohoo, he can't jab lock you, but if what Larry says is true, then Fox now has a guaranteed jab to Up Smash not to mention with lower end lag on Blaster and its customs, Fox's zoning or ranged harassment game is much better. And he has a situational, but still useful Reflector gimp. There's also stigma and such lowering the merits of Marth and Meta Knight; "These low tiers have no right to be there", or Brawl Meta Knight hatred...

 

[Zelder]

No strengths. I'm missing something aren't I?

Yes, guy who thinks Kirby is high tier, you're definitely missing something.

 

[Wintermelon43]

i still have no idea how marth could even remotely be considered a low tier unless you ignore patch notes or only play for glory

a character as safe as him that is also great in neutral, is strong, and fast being called a low tier is a farce

I only have for glory TO play though, there's no tournaments I can go to where I live.

Yes, guy who thinks Kirby is high tier, you're definitely missing something.

Ao because I have a differant opinion, you're gonna bully me? reported

 

[ぱみゅ]

Regi placing as well as he did was great, but I personally attribute some of his success to matchup inexperience. I don't know how well he does at his locals (@ ぱみゅ care to enlighten me?). He also struggles against defensive characters. Rosalina doesn't feel like it should be as bad as it is but when Luma kills him with a jab at 100% it just kind of sucks.

I was summoned so I'll compile.

He's an Online Warrior (a true contender), but that's pretty much all I know about him, his region doesn't get many tournament results posted.

That being said, he was present at Smash Factor, and it didn't go well for him. He lost to a Little Mac on stream.

 

[FullMoon]

Well I'm intelligant enough to report your posts.

That's an unfortunate typo.

 

[C0rvus]

Let's bring the hostility down, guys. Nothing gets done when we bicker.

@ Wintermelon43 If there are any questions you have about the game, this is the site for them. You're gonna have to do some digging though. Matchups, videos, tournament results, guides of all kinds, and other stuff are all over the site. This thread is specifically for discussing the metagame (mid to top level play).

I don't mean to be a jerk, but you said it yourself; all you have is For Glory. This thread may be too intermediate for you. Various technical terms are common jargon here. Most of us are tournament players. If you ask, people will usually answer your questions (sometimes not very nicely, but still, you get your answer most of the time). Just don't be a jerk yourself and we'll mostly get along. But if you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, it may not be worth posting, lest you be "bullied".

The choice is yours.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Also, guys, cut it out, all of you. Just drop it.

 

[Espy Rose]

AA, no wonder. You're talking about custom Sonic.

Mu is even with customs.

 

[Smog Frog]

theory and results to verify theory are required to be high tier. has neither. and for glory isnt the only option; you can do anthers.
but anyways, i've done labbing with zair and it segues nicely between extreme campiness and full offensive. if they come in close and get hit, they are subject to a grab, nair strings, fair, ftilt, dair(yes this works, i found out today) and even fsmash if they get in really close before it comes out. its also a pretty dumb spacing tool.

 

[DeLux]

Just FYI yall MKs saying you struggle with zss are cray cray

MU is even to slightly MKs favor lol

AA, no wonder. You're talking about custom Sonic.

Mu is even with customs.

MU is even or slightly in sonic's favor with customs.

 

[Asdioh]

People are so mean to Kirby mains I mean, a lot of them are young, but still.

Also, people are 100% ignoring the gigantic buff Kirby got to Fthrow. It's almost the same level as what Robin got on his Dthrow, which got a lot of discussion, except Kirby has a little easier time getting grabs than Robin does. And his throw combos are now among the best in the game. Pls

 

[SpottedCerberus]

What are the differences between the zairs in the game? Who has the best?

I've only ever used it with Samus, as it is the crux of her meta-game, but I don't see other characters w/ zair making as much use of it. Is it because her zair is better or do they just have better options?

 

[Wintermelon43]

That's an unfortunate typo.

LOL yeah, I sometimes make typos, or mistakes in spelling. Sorry bout that

Also, guys, cut it out, all of you. Just drop it.

YES THANK YOU

Let's bring the hostility down, guys. Nothing gets done when we bicker.

@ Wintermelon43 If there are any questions you have about the game, this is the site for them. You're gonna have to do some digging though. Matchups, videos, tournament results, guides of all kinds, and other stuff are all over the site. This thread is specifically for discussing the metagame (mid to top level play).

I don't mean to be a jerk, but you said it yourself; all you have is For Glory. This thread may be too intermediate for you. Various technical terms are common jargon here. Most of us are tournament players. If you ask, people will usually answer your questions (sometimes not very nicely, but still, you get your answer most of the time). Just don't be a jerk yourself and we'll mostly get along. But if you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, it may not be worth posting, lest you be "bullied".

The choice is yours.

Well I know everything, It's just I can't do a tournament anyway since they'd be too far away. Plus I don't think my mom would want to continusaly drive me to tournaments anyway, and I'm not 16 so I Can't drive myself. The only thing I DON't know is some of the terms. Like, what are footseis?

 

[warionumbah2]

Just FYI yall MKs saying you struggle with zss are cray cray

MU is even to slightly MKs favor lol

Really? Why?

 

[Ffamran]

Well I know everything, It's just I can't do a tournament anyway since they'd be too far away. Plus I don't think my mom would want to continusaly drive me to tournaments anyway, and I'm not 16 so I Can't drive myself. The only thing I DON't know is some of the terms. Like, what are footseis?

... Someone should just sticky this: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...-traps-a-primer-for-gameplay-concepts.380200/...

 

[Speed Boost]

Let's bring the hostility down, guys. Nothing gets done when we bicker.

@ Wintermelon43 If there are any questions you have about the game, this is the site for them. You're gonna have to do some digging though. Matchups, videos, tournament results, guides of all kinds, and other stuff are all over the site. This thread is specifically for discussing the metagame (mid to top level play).

I don't mean to be a jerk, but you said it yourself; all you have is For Glory. This thread may be too intermediate for you. Various technical terms are common jargon here. Most of us are tournament players. If you ask, people will usually answer your questions (sometimes not very nicely, but still, you get your answer most of the time). Just don't be a jerk yourself and we'll mostly get along. But if you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, it may not be worth posting, lest you be "bullied".

The choice is yours.

Yeah, I guess it's just the age group on here. There are a few that take advantage of every opportunity to be an asshole. When you give a bunch of teenagers the Internet this happens.

 

[Wintermelon43]

theory and results to verify theory are required to be high tier. has neither. and for glory isnt the only option; you can do anthers.
but anyways, i've done labbing with zair and it segues nicely between extreme campiness and full offensive. if they come in close and get hit, they are subject to a grab, nair strings, fair, ftilt, dair(yes this works, i found out today) and even fsmash if they get in really close before it comes out. its also a pretty dumb spacing tool.

Actually, he does have theory. Also for my tier lists I don't count Results. If I counted results he woudn't be high tier

 

[DeLux]

Really? Why?

MK has a shield and a forward roll and a heavy punish.
ZSS doesn't have a grab or a dsmash.

It's actually pretty straight forward lol

 

[Espy Rose]

Just FYI yall MKs saying you struggle with zss are cray cray

MU is even to slightly MKs favor lol




MU is even or slightly in sonic's favor with customs.

I'll agree to that.
He gets wrecked by her in no customs though.

 

[Speed Boost]

LOL yeah, I sometimes make typos, or mistakes in spelling. Sorry bout that

YES THANK YOU

Well I know everything, It's just I can't do a tournament anyway since they'd be too far away. Plus I don't think my mom would want to continusaly drive me to tournaments anyway, and I'm not 16 so I Can't drive myself. The only thing I DON't know is some of the terms. Like, what are footseis?

Put simply, Footsies refers to the options used by each player during a neutral state in order to gain an advantage.

The neutral refers to the game state when neither player has an advantage.

 

[Wintropy]

@ Wintermelon43 , it's okay, sweetheart. You just have to understand that most of us here are experienced players that are accustomed to a certain quality and tone in our conversations. You shouldn't be quick to accuse others of bullying you, because really, everybody here just wants to learn and help others learn. If you have any question, please feel free to ask us in a formal and respectful manner. It might be a good idea to just watch and get a better knowledge of competitive play before you try to enter a discussion, of course - I tend to lurk in this thread because I haven't very much to say, but if you need to ask a question, there are many people who can help you find an answer! We can all help each-other if we just have respect and dignity as a community, okay?

In answer to your question, "footsies" essentially refers to a character's movement options in the neutral game and the state in which you and your opponent maneuver around the stage to attain a state of advantage over each-other. For example, Marth has good footsies because he is able to move quickly around the stage and force his opponent out of his immediate vicinity with his sword's good range and tippered moves.

 

[Smog Frog]

has the best zair. there's confirms out of it, it hits low to the ground so you cant crouch under it, it makes his recovery safer, and it segues nicely between defensive and offensive play. if i were to rank zairs, it would look somewhat like this:

 

[C0rvus]

So since I have had a hard time finding a character that suits me, I have decided to possibly take up Dark Pit. The Pits are pretty decent at almost everything, right? Pretty good mobility, decent frame data, good disjoint, good grab game, jumps to work with, combos, etc. I figure that while playing DP, I discover what aspects of playing him I enjoy and then apply those to find the "perfect main". Then, Dark Pit makes a decent secondary due to his largely near-even MU spread.

Does this plan make shred of sense to anyone or have I lost it? I'm willing to try almost anything, this lack of character dedication is an ongoing problem that hurts my ability to improve at this game. Thus far, I've simply decided I like "zoning" but I haven't been able to decide if I actually like to zone or if I need a sword character as a crutch for my lack of understanding of zoning.

Also @ Smog Frog I know that 's Zair can confirm into tilts and even up Smash at kill percent. I've fought Biddy enough times to know this for a fact.

 

[Wintermelon43]

@ Wintermelon43 , it's okay, sweetheat. You just have to understand that most of us here are experienced players that are accustomed to a certain quality and tone in our conversations. You shouldn't be quick to accuse others of bullying you, because really, everybody here just wants to learn and help others learn. If you have any question, please feel free to ask us in a formal and respectful manner. It might be a good idea to just watch and get a better knowledge of competitive play before you try to enter a discussion, of course - I tend to lurk in this thread because I haven't very much to say, but if you need to ask a question, there are many people who can help you find an answer! We can all help each-other if we just have respect and dignity as a community, okay?

In answer to your question, "footsies" essentially refers to a character's movement options in the neutral game and the state in which you and your opponent maneuver around the stage to attain a state of advantage over each-other. For example, Marth has good footsies because he is able to move quickly around the stage and force his opponent out of his immediate vicinity with his sword's good range and tippered moves.

I'm still kinda confused what footsies are. So basicially, during neutral game, it's when you move around the stage?

 

[Ffamran]

I'm still kinda confused what footsies are. So basicially, during neutral game, it's when you move around the stage?

If you can spare 50 minutes, watch and listen to this. I swear someone already posted this before.

 

[ぱみゅ]

... Someone should just sticky this: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...-traps-a-primer-for-gameplay-concepts.380200/...

OR, we all can use the Smash Academy: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-smash-dictionary.374538/

 

[A_Kae]

I'm still kinda confused what footsies are. So basicially, during neutral game, it's when you move around the stage?

Footsies is complicated. Extremely complicated.

I strongly suggest you (and every smash player) read this: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-...-traps-a-primer-for-gameplay-concepts.380200/

If you have any questions after that, post in that thread and I can try to help you.

Edit: The video that Ffamran posted. That's good too. And the smash dictionary.