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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions
- Thread starter Shaya
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They like customs--They just have no idea how they affect characters' viability. Most people are just educated on the best customs and their characters', really.
C0rvus
Pro Hands Catcher
Every time Marth is discussed on Reddit, this one guy comes in and writes long essays about how terrible he is. Every time I try and defend Marth's strengths and viability I am swiftly downvoted. Is this guy right, is he wrong, is he just a huge ****? Idk his attitude is awful but do his points have any merit? Seems like a salty Melee Marth main. Check out what he has to say about Marth:
-About a month ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...s_i_want_to_see_buffed_zero/csugjzt?context=3
-More recently. He's all over this thread ****-talking Marth. I don't get it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3fm6kw/marth_110_discussion/
-About a month ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/...s_i_want_to_see_buffed_zero/csugjzt?context=3
-More recently. He's all over this thread ****-talking Marth. I don't get it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3fm6kw/marth_110_discussion/
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RedBeefBaron
Smash Journeyman
Maybe he just wants even more Marth buffs.
Tobi_Whatever
あんたバカァ～！？
And this is why Reddit is ****
I don't see how anyone could think Roy is better than Marth, especially now.
Reddit is such an echo chamber it's stupid. Any opinion you have that doesn't 100% conform is removed from sight. It sucks.
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NachoOfCheese
Smash Ace
I just fought my first competent Ryu yesterday and I was like dammit Emblem Lord stop being right.
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
He's just a reddit scrub who wants his old Marth back and was probably convinced by ZeRo and M2K that Marth was the worst in the game (M2K said that and probably still does).
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A_Kae
Smash Ace
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So, he seems to hate Marth in smash 4. I've seen his posts before, and that's the impression that I get almost every time. He's a reddit scrub and wants Melee Marth back (and the worst aspects of him, balance wise). That's all.
He's also got some false data. Fair ACs after F35, not 38. Some other stuff like that in some of his posts.
@
Emblem Lord
because I don't feel confident in talking about the fine details on why he's wrong.
Emblem Lord
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Ffamran
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Every time someone brings up neutral, advantage, and disadvantage, I wonder if they really know what those terms mean. I don't understand them completely, but what is Marth's neutral exactly? What is his neutral compared to Roy's? If they're completely different, then how can you say Marth or Roy is the better character? They're not even the same character. It's like saying Luigi is a better Mario when Luigi is just different. Even Dr. Mario is different compared to Mario.
Emblem Lord
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Their neutral is virtually the same actually.
And they both have good neutral.
Next question.
And they both have good neutral.
Next question.
Tobi_Whatever
あんたバカァ～！？
I think when someone who knows what he is talking about says x's neutral is better than y's neutral, he doesn't compare x and y, but compares the quality and quantity of x's and y's options in the neutral.
Like, there is no direct comparison between the characters.
Except when someone says x beats y in the neutral. That's a whole other story.
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Wintropy
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I can't speak for others, but when I say "Marth is better than Roy", I mean I think he is more consistent in his matchups, has a more diverse toolkit, better application of his options and overall is a more competitively viable character. I compare them because of the common mentality that it's kosher to determine which is the more capable swordsman; no more to it than that. People want to know which character with the same series icon is better.
Fundamentally, when you disregard any concept of "series representation" or "clone status", it's just comparing two characters for an arbitrary reason. It's no different to comparing, say, Ganondorf and Robin to determine which is more viable overall. You don't have to compare the two side-by-side under a magnifying glass, just that people will do that because it's fun to know where the old Melee Boys stand, y'know?
Fundamentally, when you disregard any concept of "series representation" or "clone status", it's just comparing two characters for an arbitrary reason. It's no different to comparing, say, Ganondorf and Robin to determine which is more viable overall. You don't have to compare the two side-by-side under a magnifying glass, just that people will do that because it's fun to know where the old Melee Boys stand, y'know?
I mean it's a glorified popularity where people who have no insight, introspection or rigidity vote based on the mainstream opinion or simply their favorite characters.
At least they don't consider Wario a low tier character like they did in the past.
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SpottedCerberus
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Solution: don't go on Reddit. Why do you? Don't answer that. Just stop.
You'll be happier for it, trust me.
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RedBeefBaron
Smash Journeyman
I like the Reddit tier lists because when it's obvious to me how horrible it is I don't feel like a scrub.
I consider neutral to be how easy it is to transition to advantage while preventing an opponent from doing the same. You could write a damn book on that sentence and what it means to each character though. But even though every character functions differently in neutral, some are definitely better at it than others. Shiek gets into an advantageous state by successfully charging needles, IMO. That automatically limits the opponents options big time, and when you allow yourself to be put into a situation where you have less safe options than at the word go that's disadvantage.
I consider neutral to be how easy it is to transition to advantage while preventing an opponent from doing the same. You could write a damn book on that sentence and what it means to each character though. But even though every character functions differently in neutral, some are definitely better at it than others. Shiek gets into an advantageous state by successfully charging needles, IMO. That automatically limits the opponents options big time, and when you allow yourself to be put into a situation where you have less safe options than at the word go that's disadvantage.
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Ffamran
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I should put disclaimers on my posts... What I meant is when someone talks about the states in games, do they actually understand what they're talking about? The other thing is do they actually understand game design. You can look at any frame data from any fighting game and notice that not a lot of moves have many active frames. Unless they're multi-hit moves, you're not going to have many moves that have beyond 4 active frames and still have the strong hit. There's a reason why Yoshi's Nair clean hit only lasts like 2 frames while the late hit doesn't. If they do have long active frames they're going to be multi-hits, very slow, not strong, or are the late hits. I mean, could you imagine Marth with more than 4 active frame on most of his moves, but have that kind of power behind them? Every move is a commitment, but how much depends on how strong, how fast, and how large of a hitbox they are. A character with a one-inch punch probably won't be committing that long since it'd be stupid to have a move cover a pixel and force a character to commit to 60 frames. Now, if that one-inch punch was killer like Jigglypuff's Rest, then yes, it should be a large commitment since it kills very early, but you take a lot of risk if you whiff it.
The impression I got from reading that dude's post was something like, "I want Sheik, but as strong as Marth with Triple D's dash attack lingering frames on all his moves". Do you know what kind of character that would be? A character that safe with long active hitboxes would not only invalidate characters, but basically break the game to the point you might as well shutdown Sora Ltd., ban the developers there including Masahiro Sakurai from ever making games again, and make it a human's rights violation that Smash 4 should ever be mentioned. I'm exaggerating severely, but each character has to commit to something. Sheik is safe, but you commit to the fact, the very damned fact you need to understand how to use her and how she works with the game, other characters, and stages. While that applies to everyone else, you also commit to the fact you might not be able to kill until the upper 140%'s and you commit to the fact that reading with her is kind of pathetic outside of Vanish and Burst Grenade.
If Marth or any character never has to commit and can throw out moves that nobody can challenge, then why even play the game? It's not fair anymore and it's not an intelligent game anymore. Marth jabs and you're done; you can't even do **** other than pull your plug and never play the game again. At least with Sheik, Rosalina, Brawl Meta Knight, Melee Fox, and Melee Marth, you had some kind of chance.
This is a fighting game and there has to be balance. Yes, it's a party-fighting game, but still, there has to be some semblance of balance. If this was just a party game, then **** all. Make everyone stupid and be done with it. Charizard breathes fire on you? Dead. Luigi looks at you? Dead. Fox SDs? You're dead and so is Fox. Is this the game we are playing? Is this the kind of game Smash is? No.
Why the hell am I typing this up about some guy's opinions on Marth?
The impression I got from reading that dude's post was something like, "I want Sheik, but as strong as Marth with Triple D's dash attack lingering frames on all his moves". Do you know what kind of character that would be? A character that safe with long active hitboxes would not only invalidate characters, but basically break the game to the point you might as well shutdown Sora Ltd., ban the developers there including Masahiro Sakurai from ever making games again, and make it a human's rights violation that Smash 4 should ever be mentioned. I'm exaggerating severely, but each character has to commit to something. Sheik is safe, but you commit to the fact, the very damned fact you need to understand how to use her and how she works with the game, other characters, and stages. While that applies to everyone else, you also commit to the fact you might not be able to kill until the upper 140%'s and you commit to the fact that reading with her is kind of pathetic outside of Vanish and Burst Grenade.
If Marth or any character never has to commit and can throw out moves that nobody can challenge, then why even play the game? It's not fair anymore and it's not an intelligent game anymore. Marth jabs and you're done; you can't even do **** other than pull your plug and never play the game again. At least with Sheik, Rosalina, Brawl Meta Knight, Melee Fox, and Melee Marth, you had some kind of chance.
This is a fighting game and there has to be balance. Yes, it's a party-fighting game, but still, there has to be some semblance of balance. If this was just a party game, then **** all. Make everyone stupid and be done with it. Charizard breathes fire on you? Dead. Luigi looks at you? Dead. Fox SDs? You're dead and so is Fox. Is this the game we are playing? Is this the kind of game Smash is? No.
Why the hell am I typing this up about some guy's opinions on Marth?
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warionumbah2
Smash Master
We're used to your posts by now, don't worry.Why the hell am I typing this up about some guy's opinions on Marth?
NachoOfCheese
Smash Ace
Because it needed to be said.I should put disclaimers on my posts... What I meant is when someone talks about the states in games, do they actually understand what they're talking about? The other thing is do they actually understand game design. You can look at any frame data from any fighting game and notice that not a lot of moves have many active frames. Unless they're multi-hit moves, you're not going to have many moves that have beyond 4 active frames and still have the strong hit. There's a reason why Yoshi's Nair clean hit only lasts like 2 frames while the late hit doesn't. If they do have long active frames they're going to be multi-hits, very slow, not strong, or are the late hits. I mean, could you imagine Marth with more than 4 active frame on most of his moves, but have that kind of power behind them? Every move is a commitment, but how much depends on how strong, how fast, and how large of a hitbox they are. A character with a one-inch punch probably won't be committing that long since it'd be stupid to have a move cover a pixel and force a character to commit to 60 frames. Now, if that one-inch punch was killer like Jigglypuff's Rest, then yes, it should be a large commitment since it kills very early, but you take a lot of risk if you whiff it.
The impression I got from reading that dude's post was something like, "I want Sheik, but as strong as Marth with Triple D's dash attack lingering frames on all his moves". Do you know what kind of character that would be? A character that safe with long active hitboxes would not only invalidate characters, but basically break the game to the point you might as well shutdown Sora Ltd., ban the developers there including Masahiro Sakurai from ever making games again, and make it a human's rights violation that Smash 4 should ever be mentioned. I'm exaggerating severely, but each character has to commit to something. Sheik is safe, but you commit to the fact, the very damned fact you need to understand how to use her and how she works with the game, other characters, and stages. While that applies to everyone else, you also commit to the fact you might not be able to kill until the upper 140%'s and you commit to the fact that reading with her is kind of pathetic outside of Vanish and Burst Grenade.
If Marth or any character never has to commit and can throw out moves that nobody can challenge, then why even play the game? It's not fair anymore and it's not an intelligent game anymore. Marth jabs and you're done; you can't even do **** other than pull your plug and never play the game again. At least with Sheik, Rosalina, Brawl Meta Knight, Melee Fox, and Melee Marth, you had some kind of chance.
This is a fighting game and there has to be balance. Yes, it's a party-fighting game, but still, there has to be some semblance of balance. If this was just a party game, then **** all. Make everyone stupid and be done with it. Charizard breathes fire on you? Dead. Luigi looks at you? Dead. Fox SDs? You're dead and so is Fox. Is this the game we are playing? Is this the kind of game Smash is? No.
Why the hell am I typing this up about some guy's opinions on Marth?
And I'm pretty sure the only moves in the game with active frames you described are Dedede's Dash attack, Toon Link's Uair, and Link's Uair, and just look at how scary those moves are.
⑨ball
Smash Ace
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SRK OoS is sooooooo good.
RedBeefBaron
Smash Journeyman
I like how upset you're getting over the posts of someone who is most likely 9 lol.I should put disclaimers on my posts... What I meant is when someone talks about the states in games, do they actually understand what they're talking about? The other thing is do they actually understand game design. You can look at any frame data from any fighting game and notice that not a lot of moves have many active frames. Unless they're multi-hit moves, you're not going to have many moves that have beyond 4 active frames and still have the strong hit. There's a reason why Yoshi's Nair clean hit only lasts like 2 frames while the late hit doesn't. If they do have long active frames they're going to be multi-hits, very slow, not strong, or are the late hits. I mean, could you imagine Marth with more than 4 active frame on most of his moves, but have that kind of power behind them? Every move is a commitment, but how much depends on how strong, how fast, and how large of a hitbox they are. A character with a one-inch punch probably won't be committing that long since it'd be stupid to have a move cover a pixel and force a character to commit to 60 frames. Now, if that one-inch punch was killer like Jigglypuff's Rest, then yes, it should be a large commitment since it kills very early, but you take a lot of risk if you whiff it.
The impression I got from reading that dude's post was something like, "I want Sheik, but as strong as Marth with Triple D's dash attack lingering frames on all his moves". Do you know what kind of character that would be? A character that safe with long active hitboxes would not only invalidate characters, but basically break the game to the point you might as well shutdown Sora Ltd., ban the developers there including Masahiro Sakurai from ever making games again, and make it a human's rights violation that Smash 4 should ever be mentioned. I'm exaggerating severely, but each character has to commit to something. Sheik is safe, but you commit to the fact, the very damned fact you need to understand how to use her and how she works with the game, other characters, and stages. While that applies to everyone else, you also commit to the fact you might not be able to kill until the upper 140%'s and you commit to the fact that reading with her is kind of pathetic outside of Vanish and Burst Grenade.
If Marth or any character never has to commit and can throw out moves that nobody can challenge, then why even play the game? It's not fair anymore and it's not an intelligent game anymore. Marth jabs and you're done; you can't even do **** other than pull your plug and never play the game again. At least with Sheik, Rosalina, Brawl Meta Knight, Melee Fox, and Melee Marth, you had some kind of chance.
This is a fighting game and there has to be balance. Yes, it's a party-fighting game, but still, there has to be some semblance of balance. If this was just a party game, then **** all. Make everyone stupid and be done with it. Charizard breathes fire on you? Dead. Luigi looks at you? Dead. Fox SDs? You're dead and so is Fox. Is this the game we are playing? Is this the kind of game Smash is? No.
Why the hell am I typing this up about some guy's opinions on Marth?
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
I hate the kind of active frames Olimar's Dtilt has. He can 1 frame you as you're trying to recover to the ledge very very easily.
Then there's his Fsmash, the king of active frames. Mr. Ledge-get-up-killer himself.
Then there's his Fsmash, the king of active frames. Mr. Ledge-get-up-killer himself.
Cassio
Smash Master
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We like to talk about how awful this MU is in the US, but most notable American Sonics have a particular style where its possible ZSS is more of a natural counter to a particular way of play. Helps @Amazing Ampharos case out a bit, lol.
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What particular way of play is that?
Wintermelon43
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Warning Received
Why are people saying Marth is better than Roy? Isn't he low tier? Or was he buffed that much in this patch?
Wintropy
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@
Wintermelon43
, Marth has been buffed significantly every patch. He is most certainly far beyond low-tier at this stage.
Roy, by contrast, hasn't done much. His meta has yet to develop in any massive way.
Wintermelon43
, Marth has been buffed significantly every patch. He is most certainly far beyond low-tier at this stage.Roy, by contrast, hasn't done much. His meta has yet to develop in any massive way.
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
I'm on Windows 10 now...
Anyway,
Marth used to be crap. But each of the last 3 balance patches were all significant. Significant buffs times 3 = good character. This last buff was IMO very very slightly more significant than the other 2.
Anyway,
Marth used to be crap. But each of the last 3 balance patches were all significant. Significant buffs times 3 = good character. This last buff was IMO very very slightly more significant than the other 2.
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Wintermelon43
Smash Champion
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How big was this patch's buff then? I don't play Marth or Lucina so I havn't noticed anything
Cassio
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More defensive, campier, runaway. Granted Im not sure how Japanese Sonics play. But I heard during n. riddles run on sonics at CEO, he had the closest set with 6wx
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
There are no units to quantify how big buffs are. http://smashboards.com/threads/tournament-mode-1-1-0-community-patch-notes.412130/ So just take a look yourself if you haven't already. In Melee and Brawl Marth was able to safely throw out moves and safely approach and land. Every patch he slowly gets that safety back.
Besides safety... throughout Smash 4 he has received a working dancing blade, a scary jab, the most powerful Nair, an extremely powerful Utilt that is now a combo starter, and more landing combos thanks to the landing lag changes.
His only real flaws are many stupid hitbox issues, aerials' autocancel, dash attack, and Dsmash. Not bad at all. He's an above average character.
Wintermelon43
Smash Champion
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Idk, he still looks low tier to me. Am I missing something
SpottedCerberus
Smash Journeyman
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A_Kae
Smash Ace
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Grab followups would make Marth a better character, but they're not required. Give him throw combos and Roy doesn't have much of a point.
They're fine except for damage. Positional advantage is what Marth is about, and that's what his throws give him.
Why does he look low tier to you? You're definitely missing something, but I can't say what without knowing that.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
Fireballs beat out projectiles and since theyre so quick he can even shield if they do happen to get past. Our usual poking game with SH nair is unsafe on his shield, it doesnt push him back far enough and we'll get usmashed for it. Off stage if he just cyclones at the ledge, since we have a vertical recovery, we'll just get gimped whether the up b trades with cyclone or not. Even if we zair the ledge, if he cyclones at the ledge we still get gimped. Landing is almost impossible with his anti-air usmash and our terrible landing options since we don't have brawl bair or brawl ibomb. Only thing really safe on luigis shield is sh fair which is slow and doesnt autocancel, so if we want it to be truly safe we have to DJ after fair or take some landing lag both of which luigi can then look to punish. Zair spacing is nullified due to fireballs. We're like a semi perfect weight to combo since we're floaty-ish and not the lightest character. Utilt strings don't work as well on luigi and hes a bit more on the heavier side of things which makes killing him a chore. All of our projectiles that we would use to gimp luigi doesn't do much for us since it hits him up anyway. Finding a situation to grab luigi is a chore. When we throw bombs at fireballs, the bomb first off has 5% health and will explode if too close, and if spaced right it will go through fireball but it will go through hitlag when it connect with fireball and luigi can then shield. Clanking arrows and boomerang with fireballs is unproductive and since fireballs are faster we'll prob get hit or lose stage control anyway. Ground game is disadvantageous and aerial game with TL already is lacking but luigi makes it a nightmare to be above him.
oldkingcroz
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I don't think Roy is better than Marth, technically. He's just easier.
There are a lot of characters that are just harder to play as, like Bowser Jr, Game and Watch, Zelda, Jiggilypuff, Shulk, and Marth that require specific playstyles and strategies to do well as. Bowser Jr has some of the best kill/combo setups (that may even rival Meta Knight or Zero Suit), but in the hands of a beginner or intermediate player: he is clunky, has terrible landing lagg, and has few safe moves. Game and Watch relies on windboxes, invincibility, and edge guarding. The players that have these characters as their main usually have to dedicate everything on these weird characters, because you have to be a master at them in order for them to be viable. But if the right player was to work with these theorized weaker characters [respectably], they could potentially be huge threats. Kinda like Yoshi/Luigi/Pikachu in Melee. They just play completely differently to the rest of the cast.
Roy's rewards off grabs and kill power make him a much more approachable charcter than Marth. Roy plays a lot like the higher tiered characters (play it safe with nair/dtilt/jab, grab a lot, juggle, punish people, KO, repeat), and I think that might be where the bias is coming from (his playstyle is like the current top/high tier). Marth's focus on tipper vs non tipper, spacing with neutral B & dancing blades, and less raw kill power [than Roy] makes him a tougher character to play (and thus portrayed as weaker).
There are a lot of characters that are just harder to play as, like Bowser Jr, Game and Watch, Zelda, Jiggilypuff, Shulk, and Marth that require specific playstyles and strategies to do well as. Bowser Jr has some of the best kill/combo setups (that may even rival Meta Knight or Zero Suit), but in the hands of a beginner or intermediate player: he is clunky, has terrible landing lagg, and has few safe moves. Game and Watch relies on windboxes, invincibility, and edge guarding. The players that have these characters as their main usually have to dedicate everything on these weird characters, because you have to be a master at them in order for them to be viable. But if the right player was to work with these theorized weaker characters [respectably], they could potentially be huge threats. Kinda like Yoshi/Luigi/Pikachu in Melee. They just play completely differently to the rest of the cast.
Roy's rewards off grabs and kill power make him a much more approachable charcter than Marth. Roy plays a lot like the higher tiered characters (play it safe with nair/dtilt/jab, grab a lot, juggle, punish people, KO, repeat), and I think that might be where the bias is coming from (his playstyle is like the current top/high tier). Marth's focus on tipper vs non tipper, spacing with neutral B & dancing blades, and less raw kill power [than Roy] makes him a tougher character to play (and thus portrayed as weaker).
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Wintermelon43
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No strengths. I'm missing something aren't I?
Ffamran
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Triple D's dash attack has the strong hit at frame 26-27 that does 16% and the late hit comes at frame 28-35 that does 13%. That's a total of 10 active frames, 2 for the clean hit and 8 for the late hit, but notice the startup. It's stupidly slow, it looks goofy as hell, and it's stupidly strong. It's not a move you can throw out whenever since you commit to it heavily.
Link's Uair hits on 11-13 for 15% and 14-40 for 13%. A total of 28 frames with the clean hit having 3 active frames and the late hit having 25 active frames. It's not super slow, but consider Link's air speed, fall speed, and where the hitbox is. Link is not going to be weaving around with this, I'm pretty sure the landing lag isn't good, and the hitbox is just straight up with some disjoint on the sides. Otherwise, Link's completely vulnerable behind and to his sides. This is the same with his Dair which hits on frames 14-17 for 15% and spikes, frames 18-20 for 18%, and frames 21-64 for 15%. You commit to so much with Dair since the landing lag is like 40 frames or something and there is no chance in hell a decent player is going to let you approach with this move.
Toon Link's Uair hit frames are the same as Link's, but he does 14% and 11% instead. For Dair, he hits on frames 17-25 for 16% and frames 26-64 for 12% while shooting down like a meteor. Toon Link's hitboxes are also smaller, so there's that too. Either way, Link and Toon Link have to commit to these strong moves. It's not like if say Marth's Fair was frames 6-11 instead of 6-8. That's 6 active frames instead of 3. Can you imagine if Marth had that? It'd be killer. Sheik's Fair is also 3 active frames, but 1 frame faster than Marth's, but imagine if it had more active frames... It might be useless for her Fair strings, but it'd be one stupid move that lingers. Or worse, if Falco didn't have a sour-spot on his Bair and it lasted for frames 4-7. That's how long Wolf's Bair lasts, 4 frames, but his Bair is frames 6-9 with 4 hitboxes doing 13%, 11%, 10%, and 9% not to mention lower knockback; 20 base knockback and 96 knockback growth for the 13%, 11%, and 10% hits while the 9% has a BKB of 0 and KBG of 100. 4 frames isn't much, right? For Wolf, it's a different story since Brawl functioned differently and he has separate hitboxes on his Bair. Smash 4 Falco? A frame 4-7 Bair that does 13%, has 0 BKB, 130 BKB, and auto-cancels. Do you know how broken that would be? Falco would never have to commit nor would he have to be precise with his Bair which is used to punish and kill on reaction since inputting it too early or too late and you get a late hit or whiff entirely.
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