Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Ghostbone]

ZSS wrecks MK harder than he can combo her.
Plus she outspaces him, traps him at the ledge really well, kills him early, etc.

It definitely seems like his hardest matchup.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Neither of these characters really suck in any matchup though. I'm not sure ZSS completely bodies MK like the MK boards say (I'd like to see it played out) but it's definitely not good for MK by any means. What makes ZSS struggle against Olimar, Pikachu and Fox? Is there any other character keeping her from being solo-main viable?

Who (aside from Sheik) does Diddy struggle against to the point where a secondary would be recommended?

RE: MK's matchups, I think he's disadvantaged against Sonic and ZSS in particular.

Diddy loses to Mario and Pikachu IMO. He used to lose to Luigi, probably still does. I'm confident Greninja may have him now too but I haven't really seen that yet since the patch. Wario is kind of annoying and may be in his favor, but its just as likely to be even I think.

I definitely like having a backup for Mario, Luigi, and Pikachu though.

 

[Cassio]

Wait, why wouldn't ZSS of all characters not be solo-viable? You have to purposefully ignore the fact that about 5 different players contribute towards her having the second best tournament results, worldwide, to get to this abstruse conclusion. The only thing that 'holds' ZSS 'back' is the plain fact that Sheik is a better character than her.
With that said I disagree almost entirely with the top 5 list of

Snake was 2nd for a long time with results to prove it. Stated this awhile ago but a list exclusively with results is more efficient if theory isn't going to weigh in significantly.

ZSS isn't a well rounded character, with niche weaknesses that lose to niche characters. The only character in smash that dominated in spite of this was ICs in brawl and that was because of an absurd mechanic.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

And? Even on the most pessimistic lists Snake ended up on like 4th or 5th place. So even though we may have been wrong about him being 2nd he still ended up in the top 4 or 5 anyway. That's impressively accurate for all it's worth.

And I'm not sure but if meroy serves me well Snake hasn't been ranked 2nd that much in the first place. First tier list had him as 2nd but all the tier lists from like 2009 to 2010 had Diddy above him and from like ... 2012 [?] onwards it had ICs above him.

So yeah, I won't shed a single tear if the character I believe to be 2nd now via results turns out to actually be 'only' the 4th or 5th best character.

Luigi in the first place NEVER cared for Fox's lasers to begin with. He can just crawl under them and there's nothing you can really do unless you're being too tryhard with it.

Luigi still beats Fox solidly.

What does "there's nothing you can really do unless you're being too tryhard with it" even mean?

 

[RedBeefBaron]

What does "there's nothing you can really do unless you're being too tryhard with it" even mean?

Probably you can't punish Luigi for crawling under lasers unless he does it like an idiot. Which certainly was true, how does this sound with the blaster buff? I haven't really seen how much difference that makes yet.

 

[Nobie]

What's with people handing out -3s now like they're candy?

 

[adom4]

+1

Can you tell me a bit more about the MU?
I don't have a lot of experience against MK & i would love to hear your input about the Ganon vs MK MU.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Late but you'll most likely never get Megafox out of state due to age. So most likely need more nationals to happen in TX if anyone wants to see more of him.
Houston scene (Trela Razer/Grimturtle Gnes etc.) and of course Dallas (Denti) are more likely to travel out of state to show themselves.

Oh and he won another tournament, a con one but still had a good portion of TX come to this instead of LTC3 and had more Smash 4 entrants than LTC3 lol

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Wait, why wouldn't ZSS of all characters not be solo-viable? You have to purposefully ignore the fact that about 5 different players contribute towards her having the second best tournament results, worldwide, to get to this abstruse conclusion. The only thing that 'holds' ZSS 'back' is the plain fact that Sheik is a better character than her.
With that said I disagree almost entirely with the top 5 list of @ Shaya ... while an arument based on tournament results can be made that MK should be ranked very highly, calling him top 5 is a bit premature still. And Mario as top 5 ... I don't think I can take that one serious. What do you base that on?

Fox - with buffs he received in the patch - is top 5, if not top 3 now. Contrary to what a lot of people believe his jab has not been nerfed but buffed. The infinite never truly mattered - OK, so Shulk can actually beat Fox now but does it realy matter? Having a jab that actually connects reliably until the final hit is worth more overall than some very situational gimmick. Crucially, Fox not only kept his other followups from jab 2 but there's a possibility that jab -> jab -> usmash works on most or all characters now.
Buffed laser is also crucial as it has the potential to even up one of Fox' hardest matchups - Luigi. Nerfed fireballs + faster lasers = Fox might be able to legitimately outcamp Luigi now. If Fox players continue to go even with Sheik and the Pikachus continue to not beat Fox in tournament then it's basically just Rosalina that 'hold' Fox 'back' - and that matchups is a plain -1, nothing more. After this patch Fox should definitely be on peoples' radars for top 3, or top 5 at least.

I don't think MK being top 5 is premature at all. If you look at his tools and his MU spread it's pretty plausible. He also has a ridiculous juggle game. As the game progresses he's just been doing better and better. They also buffed him quite a bit.

Same thing with Mario. That character is nuts. His mobility with that frame data sets him up extremely well. I don't really know of any MU that he just flat out loses. Mario is pretty legit.

I think that you guys get hing up on results too much and aren't looking at the capabilities of the characters enough. But that's just my opinion.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm going to go ahead and show my MU table for Greninja for the characters mentioned in the OP's top 15 and honorable mentions:

-2:
-1:
0:
+1: (?)

Of the even ones, I think Captain Falcon is the closest to being a favorable MU for us. ROB is also a possible +1 thanks to his really bad disadvantaged state. My experiences with Mii Brawler make me think it's on our favor but I might be wrong on that one. I honestly don't know on MK because while the Shadow Sneak Hitstun Cancel stuff on his Shuttle Loop is very powerful, I don't think that alone gives us an advantage, though with the shuriken buff we might be able to be significantly harder for MK to beat in neutral now so idk.

Oh and I still can't see us going even against Sonic.

I'm 100% sure Greninja is pretty bad for Luigi now, those buffed shurikens really mess him up and Greninja can camp him ridiculously well. The best move Luigi has for getting around shuriken spam is cyclone during our end lag but he can't be too far from us otherwise Greninja can fire another shuriken that will clank with it, otherwise it's a struggle and fireballs can only do so much.

 

[TriTails]

What does "there's nothing you can really do unless you're being too tryhard with it" even mean?

Something like jumping off-stage, and then timing one of your laser so it aligns up with Luigi, recover back, repeat.

Of course, 1.4% damage is big fat nothing when you just successfully put yourself in danger of edgeguards and possibly eat a 14% B-air or two .

So yeah, he crawls, you can do pretty much nothing on lasers except giving up and start to play the boxing.

That said. Fox's U-smash kills Luigi quite early, and Fox has 4th fastest dashing speed. Although, while he can run away, he can't really get any advantage out of it because his airspeed is below average (Average IMO is Rosalina) and his fall speed hurts. Plus, getting above Luigi = U-smash.

In short, Luigi still beats Fox. 60:40 Luigi perhaps. Nothing has changed, really. People overblow Luigi's Fireballs nerf like they'll break down the character or something, when all it does is just make Fireball dash grab even more not legit (It's already not legit pre-patch).

Hillariously, U-throw + Dbl F-air works on Fox at 0% .

 

[Speed Boost]

Na it's not a matter of me being right or wrong. I just feel as though you should back your opinion eith more than results results results. A perfect example would be eatly on when people pointed to Tobin and Zelda and claimed they were good because of results by nairo. Overlooking the character flaws and just blindy saying results.

@DanGR what do you think of the marth vs rosa mu

I am basing it on more than results though. I also took into account my understanding of the characters, community tier list and most importantly that multiple people were getting high level results.

So comparing that to Nairos Zelda is apples and oranges. All of the characters I was talking about are known top tiers. To me putying MK or Wario up there at this point is actually closer to what you are talking about.

Oh, and what do you base MUs on? Results. You get your theory from the results of playing the game and watching others play it. What results are better for understanding MUs and character strength? I would say those at the very highest level.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

I'm going to go ahead and show my MU table for Greninja for the characters mentioned in the OP's top 15 and honorable mentions:

-2:
-1:
0:
+1: (?)

Of the even ones, I think Captain Falcon is the closest to being a favorable MU for us. ROB is also a possible +1 thanks to his really bad disadvantaged state. My experiences with Mii Brawler make me think it's on our favor but I might be wrong on that one. I honestly don't know on MK because while the Shadow Sneak Hitstun Cancel stuff on his Shuttle Loop is very powerful, I don't think that alone gives us an advantage, though with the shuriken buff we might be able to be significantly harder for MK to beat in neutral now so idk.

Oh and I still can't see us going even against Sonic.

I'm 100% sure Greninja is pretty bad for Luigi now, those buffed shurikens really mess him up and Greninja can camp him ridiculously well. The best move Luigi has for getting around shuriken spam is cyclone during our end lag but he can't be too far from us otherwise Greninja can fire another shuriken that will clank with it, otherwise it's a struggle and fireballs can only do so much.

I play both characters and I think greninja could easily be +1 vs diddy. Some general things:

The shuriken buff is huge here as it will pressure Diddy into being more aggressive than he wants to in general.

Greninja will lose to diddy's fair up close but he can beat it out with his own with proper spacing thanks to the disjoint. Diddy's d tilt won't link to more d tilts, d smash, and grab as easily at early % against greninja due to his fall speed, he can fast fall to the ground and jab or roll back, similar to how he deals with Mario's up tilt combos.

Greninja gets more reward off of clean hits than diddy. Diddy also struggles with slippery whiff punish characters in general as good as his shield pressure is. Greninja should be trying to dodge and punish more than he shields here.

Greninja can deal with diddy's peels in neutral quite well. His speed and projectile allows him to pressure Diddy hard on the pluck. He also has perhaps the best mobility stats to safely take peels off the ground using z scoops, due to his epic ground speed and excellent empty hop. Once he has the peel in hand, he bodies Diddy in neutral with the new shuriken and hydro pump, harassing Diddy until he can attack with a glide toss combo.

A greninja who understands item fundamentals should have this, IMO. Thoughts?

 

[Firefoxx]

I'm going to go ahead and show my MU table for Greninja for the characters mentioned in the OP's top 15 and honorable mentions:

-2:
-1:
0:
+1: (?)

Of the even ones, I think Captain Falcon is the closest to being a favorable MU for us. ROB is also a possible +1 thanks to his really bad disadvantaged state. My experiences with Mii Brawler make me think it's on our favor but I might be wrong on that one. I honestly don't know on MK because while the Shadow Sneak Hitstun Cancel stuff on his Shuttle Loop is very powerful, I don't think that alone gives us an advantage, though with the shuriken buff we might be able to be significantly harder for MK to beat in neutral now so idk.

Oh and I still can't see us going even against Sonic.

I'm 100% sure Greninja is pretty bad for Luigi now, those buffed shurikens really mess him up and Greninja can camp him ridiculously well. The best move Luigi has for getting around shuriken spam is cyclone during our end lag but he can't be too far from us otherwise Greninja can fire another shuriken that will clank with it, otherwise it's a struggle and fireballs can only do so much.

I would say this is a matchup that Falcon loses. Especially with new shurikens.

 

[warionumbah2]

Can you tell me a bit more about the MU?
I don't have a lot of experience against MK & i would love to hear your input about the Ganon vs MK MU.

Spoiler: Wall..kinda

MK will basically camp alot in neutral, the whole match is a guessing game but MKs dash attack being frame 7 means its really hard to avoid on reaction its something you anticipate. MK dictates the pace of the MU since Ganon really can't pin MK down even with his dash attack having alot of burst movement.

MK literally goes in, gets a combo and runs away again and resets neutral or he can juggle Ganon with Utilt which beats his Down B and Dair. Ganon of course can make mks work pointless by doing the usual, MK will be in the air alot as there's less threat up there compared to the ground. Ganon has powerful tools on the ground that beat MK in damage, range also he has a command grab. If Ganon recovers horizontally MK can't beat his flame choke so he'll wait on stage and use jab to beat it out and force you back off with more damage, Ganon is more exposed when he recovers low as the back of Nair has more disjoint than the front. Ganon can beat drill rush with reverse Uair and he can Dair spike MK if he goes low, but MK can simply cape past him most if not all the time.

When Ganon loses a stock its an up hill battle, MK really doesn't care at this point and proceeds to circle camp and tack on damage whenever an opportunity arises. This is what I do since im sadistic when it comes to facing slow characters in a 2 stock 6min format, alot of mks play way too aggressive and ignore tactics such as playing lame. The MU goes to MK since he controls the pace of the match and Ganon has no choice but to follow and rely heavily on his silly punish game and his Flame choke to Ftilt ending him early, unlike Mario he kill setups to close out the stock and is able to edgeguard Ganon if he recovers low. Online this MU is simply impossible for MK, the player can't control their movement well(if there's that much lag), impossible to tech flame choke, drops Uair combos. Ganon doesn't need to combo at all with his damage output and Flame choke to Ftilt is simple af, aggressive MKs will lose this MU 90% of the time like here: https://youtu.be/APs3v9y4mik?t=829

BF and DL are good stages for Ganon, less places to run for MK and bf has large blastzones. DH is a wonderful stage for MK its huge,up throw shenanigans and he can use the ducks to stale his Uair making it easier to combo and unstale Shuttle loop. Hope it was worth the read.

ZSS wrecks MK harder than he can combo her.
Plus she outspaces him, traps him at the ledge really well, kills him early, etc.

It definitely seems like his hardest matchup.

Funny how ZSS is bad but in her POWER SUIT she gets demolished. https://youtu.be/ktGb-jimFC0?t=110

 

[Smog Frog]

the matchup spread that @ FullMoon presented for is definitely a high tier(dare i say top 10?) matchup spread. what about him doesnt seem top 10? is it a lack of results to verify theory? because in theory he's in the running for top 10.

 

[FullMoon]

I play both characters and I think greninja could easily be +1 vs diddy. Some general things:

The shuriken buff is huge here as it will pressure Diddy into being more aggressive than he wants to in general.

Greninja will lose to diddy fair up close but he can beat it out with his own with proper spacing thanks to the disjoint. Diddy's d tilt won't link to grab as easily at early % against greninja due to his fall speed, he can fast fall to the ground and jab or roll back, similar to how he deals with Mario's up tilt combos.

Greninja gets more reward off of clean hits than diddy. Diddy also struggles with slippery whiff punish characters in general as good as his shield pressure is. Greninja should be trying to dodge and punish more than he shields here.

Greninja can deal with diddy's peels in neutral quite well. His speed and projectile allows him to pressure Diddy hard on the pluck. He also has perhaps the best mobility stats to safely take peels off the ground using z scoops, due to his epic ground speed and excellent empty hop. Once he has the peel in hand, he bodies Diddy in neutral with the new shuriken and hydro pump, harassing Diddy until he can attack with a glide toss combo.

A greninja who understands item fundamentals should have this, IMO. Thoughts?

Diddy can Monkey Flip over shurikens IIRC and get us while we're in endlag, shurikens are not as spammable here.

Diddy is also ridiculously hard to catch because of things like B-Reverse Peanuts/Banana and also Monkey Flip. Greninja gets more reward from hits but getting the first hit on Diddy can be surprisingly hard thanks to how he can change his momentum from Monkey Flip so easily.

Granted, I'm not too good at dealing with Diddy's banana nor do I have much practice with things like picking items with an airdodge and stuff (plus I play mainly on wi-fi) so that might cloud my vision of how Greninja deals with it some. Diddy is pretty vulnerable while spawning the banana, that's true and once Greninja gets the banana himself (which shouldn't be too hard with his mobility specs) he does have a good advantage. I'm still not quite sure if aMSa's strategy of Z-Dropping the banana on stage to get stage control is ideal.

Diddy is also not easy to edgeguard thanks to Monkey Flip, Hydro Pump is not that useful here unless Diddy is forced to use the rocket barrels. He can easily recover high with Monkey Flip and while that would normally mean becoming Up-Smash bait, the way he can change his momentum after it can really trip Greninja up and makes recovering high much safer. On the other hand, Diddy can do very little to edgeguard us in return.

You raise some good points, but I don't see Diddy having such a hard time against Greninja. He's one of the MUs I tend to struggle the most though that's in part because I really don't know how to deal with him than the MU being bad.

Ironically you posted this just after I got 2 stocked by a really good Diddy in For Glory.

I would say this is a matchup that Falcon loses. Especially with new shurikens.

I wouldn't put it past 55:45 myself just because Falcon has such scary power behind him. Greninja's main advantages in the MU are having a projectile, having a good disadvantaged state (which coupled with Falcon's being bad means once he gets in he can keep Falcon in a bad position for longer) and having a much better recovery while also being able to wreck Falcon's. Still, Falcon has power, outruns Greninja on the ground and is also heavy so he takes longer to kill while also killing Greninja much quicker.

This is a very volatile MU which does make it kinda interesting, shurikens definitely help but Falcon's mobility does make them not too spammable since we still have the endlag on it, I think the main factor that makes this in our favor is our edgeguarding against Falcon. He doesn't have much of an answer to it other than trying to trick the Greninja into missing it.

 

[Ghostbone]

the matchup spread that @ FullMoon presented for is definitely a high tier(dare i say top 10?) matchup spread. what about him doesnt seem top 10? is it a lack of results to verify theory? because in theory he's in the running for top 10.

Greninja mains are the theory kings (well maybe 2nd to Pacman mains)

I just don't think other people rate the character very highly and he doesn't have the results to support the theory either.

 

[Zelder]

No one theorycrafts harder than PacMan mains. Though the level of optimism for the character is refreshing.

 

[Woohoo982]

My personal opinion

Default


Customs


I feel like its her community that holds her back most. They don't have that much faith in her which is extremely unhealthy for advancing a meta. Yes they are helping but if they were more optimistic, it would be much better.

Oh yes,because Bowser,BJ,Zard,G&W,Puff,Mewtwo,Mac,Lucina,DK,Gunner,Swordfighter and Robin TOTALLY don't win tourneys. totally. and also, about half of the characters actually win their MU vs Zelda.

 

[FullMoon]

the matchup spread that @ FullMoon presented for is definitely a high tier(dare i say top 10?) matchup spread. what about him doesnt seem top 10? is it a lack of results to verify theory? because in theory he's in the running for top 10.

Here's 10 characters I think are better than Greninja:



(this is not ordered by the way)

You could also add , , , if you want to.

 

[Macchiato]

Oh yes,because Bowser,BJ,Zard,G&W,Puff,Mewtwo,Mac,Lucina,DK,Gunner,Swordfighter and Robin TOTALLY don't win tourneys. totally. and also, about half of the characters actually win their MU vs Zelda.

not really, only GnW and Mac. The rest are even or slightly in Zelda's favor.

 

[Woohoo982]

Long Post Warning: To bring this back to the idea of viability, I think rather than a tier list, which is not particularly useful at this point (and may not ever be, outside of the top characters), I think character organization/ranking should run something like:

Good Results + Good Theory
Good Results + Mixed Theory
Good Results + Poor Theory

Few Results + Good Theory
Few Results + Mixed Theory
Few Results + Poor Theory

To further delineate, I think the concept of "Results" speaks for itself. It means characters that win, whether it's large locals, regionals, or nationals. By "Theory" I mean all that theorycraft behind why a character is either "good" or "lacking", or if we can't decide whether the character is actually good or mediocre (since truly bad characters may not be known to truly exist, yet).

An easy example of the Good Results + Good Theory would be Sheik. She has both the results and the theorycraft backing up those results. On the other end of the spectrum, we have say, Zelda, who has Few Results + Poor Theory. You group characters like this, and suddenly the concept of "viability" as a combination of theorycraft and results becomes a more useful operational definition. In addition, as characters with say, Poor Theory start getting good results, we can re-evaluate their successes and establish some working idea of why out previous ideas may or may not be justified.

I'll base a list on confirmed 1st place finishes with more recent regionals/nationals given more weight, although I won't discount locals, just for discussion's sake (This is mixed customs and vanilla):

Good Results + Good Theory

Good Results + Mixed Theory

Good Results + Poor Theory

Few Results + Good Theory

Few Results + Mixed Theory

Few Results + Poor Theory


I'm counting "Mixed Theory" as characters with strengths and weaknesses that are in ambiguous balance, at least from competitive impressions discussions. I probably missed a few things, and really, this could be expanded with a "Mixed results" bracket. But honestly, given the state of modern fighters, I don't think we will have a useful tier-list any time soon, if ever, and I want to formulate something that is useful given fluctuations in character balance throughout patches.

ETA: Link, Charizard, Ike, and so forth are in the "Good Theory" bracket due to the patches, and various analyses of their buffed strengths. Charizard could probably be in the Mixed bracket, but I think with his grab game and fast attacks in neutral that he can scrape into "Good Theory"

ETA 2: Added missing characters. A note on Pacman, I placed him in Mixed due to a relative lack of theorycraft from players at large, other than his mains. I have no doubts that across the general player consciousness that he will start to get "Good Theory" due in no small part to Abadango.

Palutena,WFT and Mii Swordfighter in 'Good Results' despite being bad characters, but G&W,Shulk and Bowser in 'Few results'? I'm not much of a tourney guy but at least G&W,Shulk and Bowser show up.(unless this is a customs list in which case i am wrong)

 

[Luco]

There's moves that are literally useless like Easy Pocket, there's ones thar help in strictly one matchup like Striking Flight

I'll have you know that easy pocket helps in two MUs. Take a wild guess, seeing as I was the one who said this.

Also has MK beaten any major Ness mains in tournament? I have it in my head that Tyrant put Shaky into losers at... CEO, maybe? Could someone clarify? Because I've never heard any Ness mains complain about this MU at all and MK mains seem to unanimously agree it's a +1 and I want to know where the discrepancy lies. Would be interested in talking about this one.

Also I see people throwing Luigi out the door like he's trash, and while I have my own thoughts and believe he is most likely over-rated, I feel people are being too quick and jumping to the gun on this one. Sometimes that one SD can make a massive deal in tournament, as did happen to Concon.

 

[Mr. Johan]

So Kamicario beat Zero in a Best of 3 set last night, to the point that Zero wanted to extend that to a Best of 5.

Friendlies, yada yada, but still.

 

[zeldasmash]

-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
+2:

?????:

 

[Firefoxx]

I'll have you know that easy pocket helps in two MUs. Take a wild guess, seeing as I was the one who said this.

Also has MK beaten any major Ness mains in tournament? I have it in my head that Tyrant put Shaky into losers at... CEO, maybe? Could someone clarify? Because I've never heard any Ness mains complain about this MU at all and MK mains seem to unanimously agree it's a +1 and I want to know where the discrepancy lies. Would be interested in talking about this one.

Also I see people throwing Luigi out the door like he's trash, and while I have my own thoughts and believe he is most likely over-rated, I feel people are being too quick and jumping to the gun on this one. Sometimes that one SD can make a massive deal in tournament, as did happen to Concon.

Have no idea if an MK has beaten either Shaky or FOW in a big tournament, but Shaky got sent to losers by ZeRo at CEO

 

[Luco]

Have no idea if an MK has beaten either Shaky or FOW in a big tournament, but Shaky got sent to losers by ZeRo at CEO

Ahhh okay, I had it in my head that Tyrant sent one of the top Ness mains to losers somewhere.

 

[Balgorxz]

After reading the patch and mini labbing each character, my prediction for this patch are the following:

Competitive Tier 1:
Competitive Tier 2:
Viable Tier 1:
Viable Tier 2:
Low Tier:
Abyss Tier:

 

[Smog Frog]

i'd put in competitive tier 1.

 

[Zage]

My thoughts on Pac-man's MU spread. I'll talk a little about a few of the really bad MUs.

ROB- Can do almost everything just as well as Pac-man does. When it comes to keep away, ROB easily wins the war of attrition. The laser pierces all of Pac-man's projectiles. Even the hydrant. The gyro clanks with every Bonus Fruit and Hydrant and still retains an active hit-box after. If you rush him down and manage to get in, he can be hard to pin down, his nair is a free get out of jail card due to Pac-Man having a poor OOS game unless the opponent is directly ontop of them.

Wario- On reaction, he can eat the Bonus Fruit and the hydrant, even while its falling from being spawned. Which heals him and gives him one second back on his waft each time. Playing keep away is virtually useless.

MetaKnight/Kirby/Dedede - With their multiple jumps, these characters can linger in Pac-Man's blind spot, above and slightly behind/infront of him. Once they find their opening, they have strong tools to punish with. Pac really can't cover this space well without the bell or some hydrant launch angles.

Lucario - There isn't much to say about this. Pac-Man has no problem stacking up damage, but he struggles to seal the KO. Once rage/aura kick in Lucario can completely control the pace of the fight. Side-B gains massive range and, along with other moves, can one-shot the hydrant, reducing it to a non-factor. If Pac doesn't get the first stock, its a wrap.

 

[oldkingcroz]

@ zeldasmash
How is Mario a -2, but doc a +1 for Link? They both have reflectors, harassment projectiles, big grab rewards, and combo potential. I know Doc's recovery & mobility isn't quite as good, but many of the traits that Mario has against Link, Doc has as well (despite being a less optimal clone).

 

[HeavyLobster]

i'd put in competitive tier 1.

Agree. Lucina and Doc probably belong in viable tier 2 as well, as they're more outclassed than bad.

 

[Wintropy]

@ Shaya 's insightful treatise on as a potential top-tier threat has made me consider where will ultimately place in the metagame.

Like Mario, Pit (this extends to Dark Pit as well, I will just say Pit for the sake of convenience) has been more-or-less untouched by patches. Sakurai himself has come out and said that he feels Pit is a below-average character:

Sakurai went on to note that Pit from Kid Icarus is in fact one of the characters he has trouble using in the game. "To bring up an example, two characters I have trouble with and can’t use very well are Pit and Palutena. Therefore, for me, I feel that 'Pit and Palutena are weaker than the average character.' If I were to adjust them to fit myself, they would become even stronger – but as you may notice, I haven’t."

Source

Now this may inspire comments which question the exact nature of Sakurai's balance criteria, if he balances for certain modes over others, but what this means to me is simply that Sakurai is reluctant to tweak Pit too much in balance patches. Thus far, precedent suggests there is no reason to believe this mantra will change: in every patch so far, Pit has received minor, at best, changes:

1.06 - Minor ledge getup glitch removed
1.08 - No changes
1.10 - Endlag on neutral-b reduced, rapid jab has a more reliable hitbox

Credit to @LancerStaff for testing this stuff!

I'm theorycrafting here, but I wonder how Pit will fare in the overall meta if he remains totally static? The survey cited in the OP offers the notion that Pit is, in the present context of the meta, a "notable" threat, yet still an outlier from the Top 15 mean characters. Players like Nairo and Pink Fresh have managed to yield distinct results with Pit in official tournaments, buuuut I think it's fair to say he wouldn't be among the most popular choices or widely regarded as a constant threat. Pit's eternal dilemma seems to be, right now, that he is a "decent character overall": no extraneous strengths, no fatal weaknesses, just an honest character with a balanced moveset who happens to be (thus far) near-absolutely exempt from balance patches.

I think what really holds Pit back from real considerate as a viable character at top-level is his relatively mediocre matchups against the top-tiers. From my own experience and experience watching other competitive Pit players, I reckon Pit's real issue here isn't that he's necessarily terrible against most of the top-tiers - definitely no more so than other characters of his ilk; rather, it's the fact that his matchups are just "okay" at best. He doesn't really have anything to make him stand out from other characters in terms of top-level viability, none of his matchups against the top-tiers (that I have seen) are widely regarded as a matchup wherein you would want to go for Pit. He doesn't really have any advantage over these characters, which will obviously compromise his competitive viability. I think the fact that he isn't necessarily invalidated by any of these characters in a matchup sense is definitely a boon, but I'd be remiss to say it's anything more than that - I'd even argue that Rosalina is among our tougher opponents (albeit the rare example of a matchup where Dark Pit is near-objectively favourable over vanilla Pit). Factor in the communal consensus that Pit has difficulty with a few other matchups here and there (Ness, Marth, debatably Roy and quite possibly R.O.B. are often cited as relatively difficult matchups below the basic threshold of what's considered top-tier) and it's difficult to convince folk that Pit is any kind of a dominant threat in the metagame.

But I digress. The point I want to bring up is: with Pit virtually immune to balance patches and currently cited by pro players as a potential high-tier threat, is it worth keeping an eye on how he progresses? Will he manage to maintain consistency in the overall meta, but ultimately eke out a comfortable existence as a "good at best" character, or will he emerge as a viable character by virtue of his "safety" as a balanced character, with others ultimately balanced around him?

It's all relative, of course, but it's this relativity that interests me. I hope this doesn't come off as baseless theorycraft; I have no real opinion on this concept other than "yeah it could happen", I just started to think about it when Shaya's thoughts were mentioned and I wanted to get others' opinions on it.

Incidentally, if it irks people that I just talk about Pit, please tell me. I wouldn't want to be known as "that cat that obsesses over Pit".

EDIT: Just to mention I made a mistake with the 1.10 patch notes: Pit did indeed receive a couple of buffs (thank you @LancerStaff for correcting this error).

 

[NachoOfCheese]

What's with people handing out -3s now like they're candy?

This.
Like seriously, most people don't realize that the only reason -3s even existed in previous smash games was either because of a chain grab or ridiculous spacing tool. How many of those are in this game? Almost none.

 

[zeldasmash]

My thoughts on Pac-man's MU spread. I'll talk a little about a few of the really bad MUs.

How come Pac-Man beats Link +2? Doesn't Link have tools to deal with Pac-Man's camping, like Zair, Arrows, Boomerang, Bombs and sword disjoints?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

This.
Like seriously, most people don't realize that the only reason -3s even existed in previous smash games was either because of a chain grab or ridiculous spacing tool. How many of those are in this game? Almost none.

Eh...I'm of the mind that there are more ridiculous spacing tools than people think. The burst range options on some characters are really insane, and with a good number of characters effectively having Brawl MK's forward roll on both of their rolls, I expect some basic disparities in mobility and options at a relevant range to be a bigger deal than is often suggested.

I'm not saying that +3s are incredibly common across the board, but I think certain characters will become responsible for a bunch matchups about as bad as that as the metagame progresses. This game is less balanced from top to bottom than is often purported.

 

[Smog Frog]

i daresay that zair is a ridiculous spacing tool. it comes out fast, has next to no endlag, huge range, and can confirm into things like fair, ftilt, and grab(and even fsmash if you're willing to get super close!) . its not as ridiculous as some of the things that existed in previous games, but its pretty damn good.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Snake Fang Strike is quite good, but it's still not often giving you that much reward in most cases.

 

[Wintermelon43]

After reading the patch and mini labbing each character, my prediction for this patch are the following:

Competitive Tier 1:
Competitive Tier 2:
Viable Tier 1:
Viable Tier 2:
Low Tier:
Abyss Tier:

IMO Ness should be one tier below, Dr. Mario, Jigglypuff, and Dedede need to be WAY higher, Link and Toon Link should be higher, Pac-Man should be WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY higher, IMO Kirby, Shulk, Mega Man, and Pac-Man should be in tier 2 instead of Ike, Greninja, Lucario, and Rob (Rob and Lucario are great, but not top 20 great, Mii Gunner and Mii Swordfighter ahould be in abyss tier instead of Samus.

Could you explain your reasons for Mii Swordfighter, Mii Gunner, Mega Man, Ness, Pac-Man, Dr. Mario, and Jigglypuff? Also, I assume this isn't in order right? Or am I wrong?