Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[LancerStaff]

@ Shaya 's insightful treatise on as a potential top-tier threat has made me consider where will ultimately place in the metagame.

Like Mario, Pit (this extends to Dark Pit as well, I will just say Pit for the sake of convenience) has been more-or-less untouched by patches. Sakurai himself has come out and said that he feels Pit is a below-average character:



Source

Now this may inspire comments which question the exact nature of Sakurai's balance criteria, if he balances for certain modes over others, but what this means to me is simply that Sakurai is reluctant to tweak Pit too much in balance patches. Thus far, precedent suggests there is no reason to believe this mantra will change: in every patch so far, Pit has received minor, at best, changes:



Credit to @ LancerStaff for testing this stuff!

I'm theorycrafting here, but I wonder how Pit will fare in the overall meta if he remains totally static? The survey cited in the OP offers the notion that Pit is, in the present context of the meta, a "notable" threat, yet still an outlier from the Top 15 mean characters. Players like Nairo and Pink Fresh have managed to yield distinct results with Pit in official tournaments, buuuut I think it's fair to say he wouldn't be among the most popular choices or widely regarded as a constant threat. Pit's eternal dilemma seems to be, right now, that he is a "decent character overall": no extraneous strengths, no fatal weaknesses, just an honest character with a balanced moveset who happens to be (thus far) near-absolutely exempt from balance patches.

I think what really holds Pit back from real considerate as a viable character at top-level is his relatively mediocre matchups against the top-tiers. From my own experience and experience watching other competitive Pit players, I reckon Pit's real issue here isn't that he's necessarily terrible against most of the top-tiers - definitely no more so than other characters of his ilk; rather, it's the fact that his matchups are just "okay" at best. He doesn't really have anything to make him stand out from other characters in terms of top-level viability, none of his matchups against the top-tiers (that I have seen) are widely regarded as a matchup wherein you would want to go for Pit. He doesn't really have any advantage over these characters, which will obviously compromise his competitive viability. I think the fact that he isn't necessarily invalidated by any of these characters in a matchup sense is definitely a boon, but I'd be remiss to say it's anything more than that - I'd even argue that Rosalina is among our tougher opponents (albeit the rare example of a matchup where Dark Pit is near-objectively favourable over vanilla Pit). Factor in the communal consensus that Pit has difficulty with a few other matchups here and there (Ness, Marth, debatably Roy and quite possibly R.O.B. are often cited as relatively difficult matchups below the basic threshold of what's considered top-tier) and it's difficult to convince folk that Pit is any kind of a dominant threat in the metagame.

But I digress. The point I want to bring up is: with Pit virtually immune to balance patches and currently cited by pro players as a potential high-tier threat, is it worth keeping an eye on how he progresses? Will he manage to maintain consistency in the overall meta, but ultimately eke out a comfortable existence as a "good at best" character, or will he emerge as a viable character by virtue of his "safety" as a balanced character, with others ultimately balanced around him?

It's all relative, of course, but it's this relativity that interests me. I hope this doesn't come off as baseless theorycraft; I have no real opinion on this concept other than "yeah it could happen", I just started to think about it when Shaya's thoughts were mentioned and I wanted to get others' opinions on it.

Incidentally, if it irks people that I just talk about Pit, please tell me. I wouldn't want to be known as "that cat that obsesses over Pit".

Thought you heard that Pit's arrows got a lag reduction and the rapid jab works now. The Dair thing was a hitbox I never noticed, though. Why would there be a stronger upwards hitbox closer to the spike, anyway?

Myself, I think Pit's potentially A- material now that his arrows have this massive buff. He can camp in the air now, which is pretty insane. IMO, Pit's worst matchup was ZSS. Not sure how effective air camping will be with flip jump being a thing, but if it ends up smoothing out the matchup then I think it'll bump Pit up a ways.

 

[TTTTTsd]

After reading the patch and mini labbing each character, my prediction for this patch are the following:

Competitive Tier 1:
Competitive Tier 2:
Viable Tier 1:
Viable Tier 2:
Low Tier:
Abyss Tier:

While I think Doc is a little low (if it's in order I'd put him above all of those low tiers and move Jiggly up to where Ganon and DK is. Doc is by no means a good character but hey! I guess viable tier 2 would work as well, honestly. Just BARELY. But hey, barely counts!)

I'll agree with @ TheReflexWonder in that this game is far from super great balance wise, but I won't say it's absolutely busted either. I think it's a game where your choices dwindle noticably at the top level, but I think for all intents and purposes, the low to high levels of play have a relatively balanced roster, if that makes sense =). It's better than the prior games, for sure, but it's all in relatives. GRANTED while I do think -3s will show up, I don't think they will be a largely common part of the meta due to this game's general mechanics. The mechanics seem conducive for "you're always in the game, man!"

 

[Zage]

How come Pac-Man beats Link +2? Doesn't Link have tools to deal with Pac-Man's camping, like Zair, Arrows, Boomerang, Bombs and sword disjoints?

Pac-man can Side-B all his projectiles and get a free 2% heal off them, even the bombs. As far as things that aren't gimmicky though, The hydrant posses most of the power in this MU, none of Link's projectiles can launch the hydrant alone, making it really useful as a shield. All of his sword attacks with the exception of Jab, launch the hydrant at really high angles as well, allowing Pac-man to just wait on the other side and punish Link if he tries to throw it at him.

 

[Asdioh]

Of the high/top tier characters that have good throw combos, how much damage are they expecting to get from their combos against opponents with optimal DI? Like:
Ness Dthrow -> multiple Fairs or Upair
Luigi Dthrow -> Fairs or whatever he wants
Diddy Up/Dthrow -> Upairs/Fair/Bair
ZSS/Falcon Dthrow -> Upairs
Sheik Dthrow->Upairs or Fthrow -> Bouncing Fish
etc.

What kind of damage will these characters expect to get if they do their throw combos correctly? I ask because the change Kirby got for his Forward Throw this patch just catapulted the move from low tier throw, to top/high tier throw. I haven't been able to test it too well against opponents of different fallspeeds and different DI, but it's a true combo move at varying low percents. It combos into Upair, Dair, Fair, Nair, Upper Cutter, various Copied moves, and possibly even Final Cutter. Kirby can get, at minimum, Fthrow -> Upair -> Uptilt -> Upair for at least 26%. Then there are the Fthrow -> Dair -> Grab resets. Then there's the fact that he has a tippity-top tier Pummel, adding even more damage to his grabs, which many characters that thrive on grabs (Luigi, Diddy for example) don't usually get, because using their Pummels risks their opponent breaking out.

In Brawl, Kirby was famous for his Fthrow -> Upair -> reverse Uptilt -> Bair combo, which actually wasn't a combo, because opponents could SDI the Upair and be out of range for any followups. SDI isn't as strong in this game, so with the new Fthrow, Kirby's throw game just got better than it's been in any Smash game. He still lacks reliable KO setups, but he actually has very few flaws now, thanks to this patch. Inhale is now a usable move (it's been buffed twice since release) and Jab no longer gets him punished for successful hits. I'm not going to be hopeful he's any higher than a solid mid tier, but he's pretty good.

Oh and if he grabs you at the edge of the stage, and Fthrows you off, he gets a free Dair->Footstool setup. It's uh... it's pretty good. Again, need more testing... but yeah.

 

[TTTTTsd]

While I'm at it, I'd like to point out that G&W's buffs are TREMENDOUS and @ Kofu you should be ready to play this character even more. He's shaping into a genuinely good character if he wasn't already. Less endlag on Bair than before on hit, even?! What is this witchcraft?!

Messed around with him the other day and he feels really solid, not amazing or whatnot, but decent. Decent enough to make Top 32 at EVO in the CUSTOMS metagame (which is worse for him) BEFORE these buffs. I think that's worth noting.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Welcome to the /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List results! Before I show them off I have a brief announcement.

The customs on tier list was unable to garner even 100 votes and it showed as the results were completely wack. The lack of interest is apparent and with this inaccuracy I've withheld the results. Sorry everyone.

Now to the fun stuff:

The /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Results!​

Remember this list assumes that customs are OFF. For those folks who will say things like you do every single month and never read ಠ_ಠ about how many splits there are, consider the + and - the characters that are particularly better/worse in the tier and are more likely to move up or downs into other tiers.

Here's a link to last month's results for those who want to compare.

So here we go again... Thoughts everyone?

 

[hypersonicJD]

I think I discussed my Sonic match-ups and it's really tireing for me to post them again

Now that Lucas has a better grab (extended range). Has be got any better for you? I have been getting grabs more consistenly with him and he's looking good. Also I haven't used Sheik in a while thanks to her nerf. It wasn't huge at all, but I rather keep getting good and training with Mario. Because Sheik wll get the nerf shoots pretty hard in the next patch. Almost every person knows that it will happen. Maybe Ness will be touched and nerfed too. And hopefully Sonic doesn't get touched at all.

Samus... THE WORST CHARACTER IN THE GAME!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME!? She's not even close to that. She is one of the best bottom tiers in the game. She just lacks more options and more speed on her missiles and attacks.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Welcome to the /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List results! Before I show them off I have a brief announcement.

The customs on tier list was unable to garner even 100 votes and it showed as the results were completely wack. The lack of interest is apparent and with this inaccuracy I've withheld the results. Sorry everyone.

Now to the fun stuff:

The /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List Results!​

Remember this list assumes that customs are OFF. For those folks who will say things like you do every single month and never read ಠ_ಠ about how many splits there are, consider the + and - the characters that are particularly better/worse in the tier and are more likely to move up or downs into other tiers.

Here's a link to last month's results for those who want to compare.

So here we go again... Thoughts everyone?

Serisualy? I ask on Reddit where the results are, and one hour later they come out Well, I guess I wasn't missing it or going nuts then.

My thoughts:

Kirby ahould be higher (9 spots) I think he could be 19th place (High tier on my tier list but.......), he has great air attacks, great tilts (espicially up tilt) great smashes great throws (Kirby is one of the few characters where all of his throws are good), great recovery, new patch makes it easy to inhale so inhale powers are great for some characters, and a good jab, plus down air meteor smashes, and that fact, along with his muitiple jumps, makes his offstage good.

Samus should be a few spots higher, dead last in her own tier is just.......

Ness is NOT 6th. Just because everyone uses him DOESN'T automaticitally make him top 6.

Dr. Mario, Mega Man, Shulk, Charizard, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Ganondorf, Samus, Fox, Pac-Man, Olimar, and Meta Knight are all DISQUESTINGLY low. Ugh

 

[RedBeefBaron]

Diddy can Monkey Flip over shurikens IIRC and get us while we're in endlag, shurikens are not as spammable here.

Diddy is also ridiculously hard to catch because of things like B-Reverse Peanuts/Banana and also Monkey Flip. Greninja gets more reward from hits but getting the first hit on Diddy can be surprisingly hard thanks to how he can change his momentum from Monkey Flip so easily.

Granted, I'm not too good at dealing with Diddy's banana nor do I have much practice with things like picking items with an airdodge and stuff (plus I play mainly on wi-fi) so that might cloud my vision of how Greninja deals with it some. Diddy is pretty vulnerable while spawning the banana, that's true and once Greninja gets the banana himself (which shouldn't be too hard with his mobility specs) he does have a good advantage. I'm still not quite sure if aMSa's strategy of Z-Dropping the banana on stage to get stage control is ideal.

Diddy is also not easy to edgeguard thanks to Monkey Flip, Hydro Pump is not that useful here unless Diddy is forced to use the rocket barrels. He can easily recover high with Monkey Flip and while that would normally mean becoming Up-Smash bait, the way he can change his momentum after it can really trip Greninja up and makes recovering high much safer. On the other hand, Diddy can do very little to edgeguard us in return.

You raise some good points, but I don't see Diddy having such a hard time against Greninja. He's one of the MUs I tend to struggle the most though that's in part because I really don't know how to deal with him than the MU being bad.

Ironically you posted this just after I got 2 stocked by a really good Diddy in For Glory.

Some general peel techs that anyone can do, but Diddy does better than most due to his mobility.

1. Shield to z catch-thrown peels bounce up when they are blocked, so you can jump out of shield and z catch fast fall to take it.

2. Z scoop-quickly and safely pick up a peel by dashing as close to it as you can without tripping and jumping with an immediate z catch. Essentially z catching a grounded item.

3. Glide toss-With a peel in hand, input a dash, input a jump, than throw. You will jump cancel the throw causing you to slide while doing your standing throw animation, which is much better than the running one in terms of frame data. You can glide in two directions and throw in four, allowing you to both aggressively start combos with a forward toss and do a defensive, retreating throw that can also start combos if the opponent over extends.

4.Peel tapping? Is there even a name for this?-Do an aerial with banana in hand by z dropping followed by immediately recatching the peel with an aerial. People actually learning this technique is my greatest fear as a Diddy main. People who know this can hold the peel hostage without losing nearly as many of their options.

Diddy can do these all very well, greninja can actually do most of it better because his run speed, fall speed, and jump speed are so amazing. One you realize that anyone can do item techs all the sweet **** Diddy does with a peel becomes a lot less intimidating, especially if you play a character with good mobility.

By the way, I can't play any character well online, how the hell are you supposed to do it with greninja?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Just wanted to step in/comment on the community-voted thing and say that none of the DLC characters are as good as Wario. My opinion on Wario's viability has dropped a little bit since last time, but that is still the case. x_x

 

[warionumbah2]

>


Ahahhahahah- Ha!

The hype never ends for this kid.

 

[FullMoon]

Some general peel techs that anyone can do, but Diddy does better than most due to his mobility.

1. Shield to z catch-thrown peels bounce up when they are blocked, so you can jump out of shield and z catch fast fall to take it.

2. Z scoop-quickly and safely pick up a peel by dashing as close to it as you can without tripping and jumping with an immediate z catch. Essentially z catching a grounded item.

3. Glide toss-With a peel in hand, input a dash, input a jump, than throw. You will jump cancel the throw causing you to slide while doing your standing throw animation, which is much better than the running one in terms of frame data. You can glide in two directions and throw in four, allowing you to both aggressively start combos with a forward toss and do a defensive, retreating throw that can also start combos if the opponent over extends.

4.Peel tapping? Is there even a name for this?-Do an aerial with banana in hand by z dropping followed by immediately recatching the peel with an aerial. People actually learning this technique is my greatest fear as a Diddy main. People who know this can hold the peel hostage without losing nearly as many of their options.

Diddy can do these all very well, greninja can actually do most of it better because his run speed, fall speed, and jump speed are so amazing. One you realize that anyone can do item techs all the sweet **** Diddy does with a peel becomes a lot less intimidating, especially if you play a character with good mobility.

Well I don't really apply any of those neither have I seen much of Greninja vs Diddy (there was aMSa vs Felix at EVO and aMSa did seem to have the advantage overall but custom Up-B really has a big impact here.) or Greninja MUs at a high level at all so I can't tell if proper use of those might give Greninja the edge or not.

By the way, I can't play any character well online, how the hell are you supposed to do it with greninja?

 

[Routa]

Oh dear oh dear... This is wrong in so many lvls...

 

[Djent]

Top 5 picks (tier position):
Top 5 picks (solo viability):

These both assume customs off (). Sheik needs no explanation. Other than her, I definitely think this game forces trade-offs between "countering" other characters and not getting countered. Mario is like the perfect examples of this. He doesn't outright slaughter anyone, but they also don't really get "countered" at all and so ends up being a great solo pick. Other characters like Rosa and Luigi beat lots of folks badly but also have some really hard MUs themselves. There are no MK/ICs who just walk all over everybody (though Sheik could get there I suppose) without ever losing to anything. Even such stellar characters as Fox/ZSS have losing MUs to overall-worse characters.

Also, RE: ZSS FWIW

So Kamicario beat Zero in a Best of 3 set last night, to the point that Zero wanted to extend that to a Best of 5.

Friendlies, yada yada, but still.

That's impressive; which character(s) did ZeRo use?

 

[Smog Frog]

my issue is that is too damn high. i mean i guess you can expect a bunch of reddit dank memers who probably arent that good to overrate him, but still. i dont think he should be that high.

is also too high. he's not significantly better than (if he's actually better at all!)

is too low. he probably deserves spot.

is too low. he belongs up there with (he should bring with him)


is too low. i honestly think he's better than (but he's way too damn high on that list, he belongs around spot while belongs 2-3 places higher than that).

is also too low. he belongs either after or in front of .

is too high. put him behind .

is too low. he's better than and on par/better than .

i cant really speak for the lower/bottom tiers, but does not belong in a tier of her own at the bottom. she should share that with (and probably )

 

[Wintermelon43]

Just wanted to step in/comment on the community-voted thing and say that none of the DLC characters are as good as Wario. My opinion on Wario's viability has dropped a little bit since last time, but that is still the case. x_x

So true. Just curious, where did you used to think Wario was? And where do you think he is now

 

[Firefoxx]

Quick thoughts: Surprised Meta Knight didn't end up higher. Surprised Luigi didn't end up lower. People continue to be convinced that Yoshi is really good. Sonic somehow keeps falling with each list. No one knows a goddamn thing about Mii's, and the DLC hypetrain rolls on.

Edit: Oh and that super misleading "everything wrong with Samus in under a minute" video + no buffs probably cemented her in peoples minds as the worst in the game.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

So true. Just curious, where did you used to think Wario was? And where do you think he is now

I used to think he was just under Top 5 or so, but other characters just seem more reliable. Better damage on average, better spacing tools, etc. He's -maybe- Top 10, but on the edge regardless.

Feels a lot like his Brawl incarnation in terms of viability, hahah.

 

[Ffamran]

Ryu is legitimately a good character, right? Compared to Roy, Lucas, and Mewtwo who have noticeable flaws and not enough strengths to balance it out, Ryu's pretty good. Ryu and Peach are on the same boat of high execution characters, but you get more reward out of Ryu purely because he's just a harder hitter.

Marth feels like he's suffering from "low tier Leona" syndrome in the eyes of many which held back a good character in a well-balanced game. Swap Marth and Falco's positions and that list would look better. Why? Who got buffed in this patch? Or rather, who got buffed in a meaningful way in patch 1.0.6, 1.0.8, and 1.1.0? Damn sure it wasn't a character named Falco. Still, we're looking a tier list voted by random people. Well, at least the Pits are closer together and not tiers apart...

 

[Speed Boost]

@ Shaya 's insightful treatise on as a potential top-tier threat has made me consider where will ultimately place in the metagame.

Like Mario, Pit (this extends to Dark Pit as well, I will just say Pit for the sake of convenience) has been more-or-less untouched by patches. Sakurai himself has come out and said that he feels Pit is a below-average character:



Source

Now this may inspire comments which question the exact nature of Sakurai's balance criteria, if he balances for certain modes over others, but what this means to me is simply that Sakurai is reluctant to tweak Pit too much in balance patches. Thus far, precedent suggests there is no reason to believe this mantra will change: in every patch so far, Pit has received minor, at best, changes:



Credit to @ LancerStaff for testing this stuff!

I'm theorycrafting here, but I wonder how Pit will fare in the overall meta if he remains totally static? The survey cited in the OP offers the notion that Pit is, in the present context of the meta, a "notable" threat, yet still an outlier from the Top 15 mean characters. Players like Nairo and Pink Fresh have managed to yield distinct results with Pit in official tournaments, buuuut I think it's fair to say he wouldn't be among the most popular choices or widely regarded as a constant threat. Pit's eternal dilemma seems to be, right now, that he is a "decent character overall": no extraneous strengths, no fatal weaknesses, just an honest character with a balanced moveset who happens to be (thus far) near-absolutely exempt from balance patches.

I think what really holds Pit back from real considerate as a viable character at top-level is his relatively mediocre matchups against the top-tiers. From my own experience and experience watching other competitive Pit players, I reckon Pit's real issue here isn't that he's necessarily terrible against most of the top-tiers - definitely no more so than other characters of his ilk; rather, it's the fact that his matchups are just "okay" at best. He doesn't really have anything to make him stand out from other characters in terms of top-level viability, none of his matchups against the top-tiers (that I have seen) are widely regarded as a matchup wherein you would want to go for Pit. He doesn't really have any advantage over these characters, which will obviously compromise his competitive viability. I think the fact that he isn't necessarily invalidated by any of these characters in a matchup sense is definitely a boon, but I'd be remiss to say it's anything more than that - I'd even argue that Rosalina is among our tougher opponents (albeit the rare example of a matchup where Dark Pit is near-objectively favourable over vanilla Pit). Factor in the communal consensus that Pit has difficulty with a few other matchups here and there (Ness, Marth, debatably Roy and quite possibly R.O.B. are often cited as relatively difficult matchups below the basic threshold of what's considered top-tier) and it's difficult to convince folk that Pit is any kind of a dominant threat in the metagame.

But I digress. The point I want to bring up is: with Pit virtually immune to balance patches and currently cited by pro players as a potential high-tier threat, is it worth keeping an eye on how he progresses? Will he manage to maintain consistency in the overall meta, but ultimately eke out a comfortable existence as a "good at best" character, or will he emerge as a viable character by virtue of his "safety" as a balanced character, with others ultimately balanced around him?

It's all relative, of course, but it's this relativity that interests me. I hope this doesn't come off as baseless theorycraft; I have no real opinion on this concept other than "yeah it could happen", I just started to think about it when Shaya's thoughts were mentioned and I wanted to get others' opinions on it.

Incidentally, if it irks people that I just talk about Pit, please tell me. I wouldn't want to be known as "that cat that obsesses over Pit".

I'm not quite sure how I feel about Pit's viability when compared to accepted top tiers. He is so solid that I would like to think he can compete, but dispite his best efforts at Apex, even Nairo couldn't crack the top 8 with him.

If he were to be buffed I would suggest a couple things. An elite startup on his Jab, and greatly reduced endlag on Side B so it could be used to edgeguard below stage level without falling to your death. He already has a lot going for him so I think a super armor edgeguard option would elevate him to that next level.

 

[momochuu]

tier list

this is like the worst one yet lol. all of the recent DLC chars being that high, and lucas being in B+. LMAO. i'm pretty sure pac-man being that high is solely because of that mexico pac-man combo video that /r/smashbros loves to think is like the defining example of high level pac-man play.

 

[Smog Frog]

isnt bad. i'd say he's higher mid.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I think I discussed my Sonic match-ups and it's really tireing for me to post them again

Now that Lucas has a better grab (extended range). Has be got any better for you? I have been getting grabs more consistenly with him and he's looking good. Also I haven't used Sheik in a while thanks to her nerf. It wasn't huge at all, but I rather keep getting good and training with Mario. Because Sheik wll get the nerf shoots pretty hard in the next patch. Almost every person knows that it will happen. Maybe Ness will be touched and nerfed too. And hopefully Sonic doesn't get touched at all.

Samus... THE WORST CHARACTER IN THE GAME!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME!? She's not even close to that. She is one of the best bottom tiers in the game. She just lacks more options and more speed on her missiles and attacks.

I would appreciate an actual defense on why Samus isn't the worst character in the game. Because you just basically stated why she is.

 

[warionumbah2]

Real talk,what has Lucas and Roy done?

Ryu is out there getting results already by 6wx,9B,Emblem Lord ect and he's meant to be more difficult to use overall than Roy and Lucas. And due to some smash players love for SF they will stick with Ryu, at least Ryu mains can say something Roy is running off limitless hype and Lucas is just there.

 

[Tito Maas]

Am I the only one who feels like we're jumping the gun with Pac-Man being high mid and above? I mean, isn't Abadango the only person to ever have any results with Pac? And he totally ditched him once he reached Top 8 at EVO.

 

[David Viran]

Punishing aerials that can only hit you when they're falling is the bread and butter of short characters in such MUs. Literally just wait for the opponent to jump, then run under them and hit them. Combating low grounded characters in neutral takes a fairly specific set of tools.

Going off cues from zero, but it seems the mario bros are difficult for diddy . Late edit, but MK too

Zss has a pretty good SHAD at least.

 

[Amadeus9]

This is the worst tier list yet.

Quick thoughts: Surprised Meta Knight didn't end up higher.

I guarantee you there was a brigade of users voting him down to keep down the MK hype. The Brawl hate tho lololol

 

[hypersonicJD]

Zelda isn't good againts anyone. Samus has some good match-ups going for her. She can wall out Luigi pretty hard, she has some good combos and has reliable options for her killl (Back air is half good, if it was faster it could be a pretty good move, but even then it's still a good option for a kill. Up Smash is also good at killing and Screw Attack is also a good option).

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Samus... THE WORST CHARACTER IN THE GAME!? ARE YOU KIDDING ME!? She's not even close to that. She is one of the best bottom tiers in the game. She just lacks more options and more speed on her missiles and attacks.

Errr.....no. If anything, I wish her Super Missiles were a bit slower. They used to be able to true combo with charge shot, but they slightly increased the speed in one of the patches. Meanwhile, the Relentless Missiles custom is massively better than default, despite (or, rather, in part due to) its slow speed.

And Samus's attack speed is not the issue.

 

[HeavyLobster]

As far as low tier heavyweights go, has now been buffed to the point where he's about as good as , whose buffs aren't as relevant and Ganon's DSmash buff makes Zero Suit and Rosa more tolerable. Previously I rated Zard higher due to better(read: less bad) top tier MUs but I don't feel that's the case any more. Both are better than , who barely got anything, who is better than . Not an expert on . Also as an aside, feels pretty average right now, though he might have some tech to bump him into high mid. Not sure if Samus is the worst but she's definitely not in a tier by herself worst.

 

[rm88]

I feel like I'm missing something big because remain massively underrated. I'm not saying they're top characters, but they're solid mid-high tier IMO. Especially Lucario and Peach. Now, I have recently started to play some Jiggs and I just don't see how she's so much worse than Kirby (just for reference, and since they're slightly similar in concept). Not to mention she's beastly in doubles.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

So Kamicario beat Zero in a Best of 3 set last night, to the point that Zero wanted to extend that to a Best of 5.

Friendlies, yada yada, but still.

Is there a link to this?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I feel like I'm missing something big because remain massively underrated. I'm not saying they're top characters, but they're solid mid-high tier IMO. Especially Lucario and Peach. Now, I have recently started to play some Jiggs and I just don't see how she's so much worse than Kirby (just for reference, and since they're slightly similar in concept). Not to mention she's beastly in doubles.

Jigglypuff is an absolutely amazing Doubles character, but in Singles she loses to defensive play, period. She can't really do anything about characters rolling away, and I feel that she falls too slowly to reliably deal with shields. Too few good pokes there, and it's easy enough to avoid her grab. That's why I went from maining her more than half a year ago to dropping her entirely in Singles. She may be a niche pick for some matchups, but she has too many bad matchups due to significant limitations in the game engine, IMO.

 

[Mr. Johan]

That's impressive; which character(s) did ZeRo use?

Sheik.

Is there a link to this?

It'll be up soon.

 

[Gunla]

Well I don't really apply any of those neither have I seen much of Greninja vs Diddy (there was aMSa vs Felix at EVO and aMSa did seem to have the advantage overall but custom Up-B really has a big impact here.) or Greninja MUs at a high level at all so I can't tell if proper use of those might give Greninja the edge or not.

And I honestly can't agree enough, haha. Greninja truly does require a bit more work that most expect, but I feel like he's more rewarding. These buffs are going to make our character go far.

No comments for the tier list, other than the fact that I can see a few very specific things that caused some outcomes.

Real talk,what has Lucas and Roy done?

Ryu is out there getting results already by 6wx,9B,Emblem Lord ect and he's meant to be more difficult to use overall than Roy and Lucas. And due to some smash players love for SF they will stick with Ryu, at least Ryu mains can say something Roy is running off limitless hype and Lucas is just there.

I'd guess a lot of it is hype, really. Roy is good, but I'd wager he's being a little hyped up. Same would go with Lucas; he's a decent character, but I'd wager he's got some issues that are noticeable. Ryu is slowly getting proven, however.

 

[|RK|]

Sheik.



It'll be up soon.

BTW, do we still say Lucario works as a Sheik counter? I recall a lot of that at the beginning. I imagine Sheik really makes Lucario's job easier, but this is theorycraft.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Just wanna chime in and say Roy has placed well at tournies and has won some locals but it was within like week 1 of his release I believe. So that means people most likely had no clue how to deal with his guessing games and lethal up b. Ryu has been consistent. And I think Trela just won another tourney with him. Also 9B is playing Ryu as well.

Ryu has a bright future ahead of him.

Honestly I think its how people approach Roy as well. The good Ryus we all understand ok this is NOT a rushdown character. This is the FATHER of footsies and space control. Roy players just wanna swing at people.

 

[Kofu]

While I'm at it, I'd like to point out that G&W's buffs are TREMENDOUS and @ Kofu you should be ready to play this character even more. He's shaping into a genuinely good character if he wasn't already. Less endlag on Bair than before on hit, even?! What is this witchcraft?!

Messed around with him the other day and he feels really solid, not amazing or whatnot, but decent. Decent enough to make Top 32 at EVO in the CUSTOMS metagame (which is worse for him) BEFORE these buffs. I think that's worth noting.

I haven't been able to play since the patch dropped, regrettably. But there actually weren't any buffs this time (I suspect the change to BAir's landing lag on hit was actually done last patch since there was no change to any of BAir's parameters in the dump). That said, he's in a decent spot. DTilt having more knockback makes it closer to Brawl DTilt (still much laggier) and kills around the same percents the rest of his moveset does (150% lol) giving him another last-ditch kill option. Hitting and landing with BAir lets him combo into other things which is cool. His biggest issue remains killing before he can be killed. Rage does him no favors and outside of his smashes (two of which need to be sweetspotted) he'll probably not get many kills sub 100%, if that.

Regi placing as well as he did was great, but I personally attribute some of his success to matchup inexperience. I don't know how well he does at his locals (@kyokoro_pamuyo care to enlighten me?). He also struggles against defensive characters. Rosalina doesn't feel like it should be as bad as it is but when Luma kills him with a jab at 100% it just kind of sucks.

 

[Wintropy]

My own inexpert opinion on Roy, based on extensive matchup experience:

He's a strong character with a few useful tools that has to be played very differently to any other swordfighter. As a Pit player, I fear a good Roy, because he outprioritises me in every respect and can shut me right down with his rushdown options. If he gets into your face and starts swingin' that sword around, good game, scorched earth.

That said, I think that that's...kind of the extent of Roy's potential. I think he's a tough opponent if you let him be, but I don't think he's got much in the way of high-level viability. An opponent that can zone him out and keep him at bay (Sheik's needles, ZSS's Paralyzer / whip, Rosalina's everything, even Mario's fireballs) can make it difficult for him to capitalise on his melee options. I think that's an unfortunate weakness to have at top-level, so I think his matchups really hold him back from being the "absolute top-tier Fire Emblem" he is often perceived to be.

In a nutshell, I think Roy suffers from "Captain Falcon Syndrome": he's hyped up to be a very powerful opponent with great options, yet he doesn't really get the results that that kind of hysteria should truly warrant. He crumbles when he has to face a character that can outzone him, it's difficult for him to shift the game back to neutral, he doesn't have the kind of versatility in terms of spacing and offensive / defensive mobility that Marth has, and most importantly, he doesn't have anything to really set him apart from other characters when it comes to high-tier viability. I think he's a good character if he can be played well and he can hold his own with most of the cast in the right hands, but he feels to me like a one-trick pony whose time will come and go.

Just my opinion. As I say, I fear a good Roy when I play Pit, but I doubt that's the best rubric to justify Roy's overall matchup viability.

EDIT: @ Emblem Lord just 'd me. He got it much more on the nail than I did.

 

[thehard]

Not to backtrack but Abadango had something to say about ZSS vs. Sonic

@TSMZeRo I see, I had forgot fsmash nerf . But ZSS vs sonic is bad MU for ZSS, Choco said and I think so too.

— あばだんご🍡 | SNB (@Abadango) August 3, 2015

Edit: And in an earlier tweet said Japan thinks Sheik is 1st, 2nd is Sonic, 3rd is Rosa or ZSS. Their legal stages likely influence these feelings.