Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Mr. Johan]

Robin gained a 10 frame advantage on Elthunder and Arcthunder now, so having that stored and lobbing it out when under pressure is a quick reminder for them to respect the blast if they're right in front of it, and realize that they have to react faster to punish Robin for it.

And sometimes that still won't work, because with that ten frame advantage, the book comes out ten frames faster too, making grab punishes turn around on them instead.

It really helps his neutral game, and his disadvantage state to a degree.

 

[bc1910]

It depends on what made you think they were dysfunctional in the first place I suppose.

We throw around a lot of general terms in these discussions, but I'm not sure we're all on the same page as to how they're defined or how their definitions apply in the meta.

What exactly would you say makes Greninja functional that Robin lacks?

It's weird to compare them because they're very different characters, but mobility is the main thing. His mobility is the probably the only thing that stopped him from falling to low tier.

But now, the buffed shurikens allow him to force approaches and pressure from afar extremely well. At 45 total frames they are among the fastest projectiles in the game from start to end, the only one that comes to mind as being faster is one shot from Fox's Blaster (even Sheik shooting one needle takes 47 total frames). Greninja, unlike Robin, can use his mobility to pressure in tandem with his good projectile. It gives him a lot of opportunities to get hits. Dthrow actually being good now is icing on the cake.

He pressures you from afar with throwing stars, making you uneasy because you never know when he's going to strike. And when he does, he strikes hard and fast.

In short, he finally plays like a Ninja.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

It depends on what made you think they were dysfunctional in the first place I suppose.

We throw around a lot of general terms in these discussions, but I'm not sure we're all on the same page as to how they're defined or how their definitions apply in the meta.

What exactly would you say makes Greninja functional that Robin lacks?

Robin is the least mobile character in a game where sheer mobility trumps a lot of other attributes.
Robin has unspectcular frame data in a game where frame data is an important facet of a character.
Robin's moves - apart from his projectiles - all have a good deal of commitment to them - in a game where safety is king.

Now add those issues together and you have a character with glaring holes in his gameplay. It takes quite a bit to make up for that. Does Robin have what it takes? I don't see the amazing footsie options in neutral [grab jab and tilts are all pretty lackluster], damage out put or even recovery that could help Robin overcome these weaknesses. More reliable KO options is a huge deal though by itself not enough to make Robin a good character.

 

[Mr. Johan]

I believe Robin's basic Thunder is faster than a single shuriken animation. 39 frames total iirc.

At the very least, basic Speed Thunder is.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

It seems like what you listed were things (some probably arguable) that Greninja is better at rather than what makes him functional while Robin supposedly isn't. This is what I meant when I said these terms probably don't hold the same meaning among everyone that reads them. If we're talking function I'm assuming design with strengths and weaknesses in mind in relation to game mechanics and the cast.

A zoner that can not zone is a dysfunctional character. A high risk/reward character(not sure how you'd term characters like Ganon and Bowser) that doesn't get any reward(disproportionately low) is dysfunctional.

How is Robin exactly lacking in function?

Oh, well by that definition Robin did feel like he couldn't zone in the match ups that mattered. Top tiers got in easily unless the Robin player was much better than them.

By my definition, he could not function in the top level metagame due to his inability to work his game plan against many popular characters. I guess Greninja had similar issues and certainly wasn't really taking names left and right, but there was aMSa who placed very high at Apex and did moderately well at EVO proving it was at least possible. Greninja also has a better matchup spread in my eyes.

Who has done well with Robin besides Nairo who seems to have dropped him for a more versatile, viable character? Real question, I don't know of anyone. I haven't seen him on stream in like months. Robin has always seemed like a great counter pick character to me with too many flaws to go solo.

Although, both characters did just get significantly buffed.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Raziek and Mr. II did make Top 48 at EVO. I think Robin was the only not!-high tier character to have more than one rep place that high, other than GW or Miss Fit iirc.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Tweek also placed pretty high with Bowser Junior. Now, WFT is pretty high tier with Customs.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Tweek also placed pretty high with Bowser Junior. Now, WFT is pretty high tier with Customs.

Wii Fit now got a set of buffs to be even stronger.
But, on the other side, there's these other characters...
If i wasn't busy, i'd make a pic of characters such as Samus or Doctor Mario, crying, looking at the new stars of the patch, or the untounched top tiers.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm watching Ike dittos in Losers Finals at Invictus.

This is so silly. The edgeguarding in the ditto is so dumb.

 

[PK Gaming]

I still think it's too early to make any judgement calls on Robin's viability, especially without seeing him in tournament play. At the end of the day, armchair theory only takes you so far.

 

[warionumbah2]

@ Emblem Lord The more i play Ryu the more i begin to understand why you never speak of him here. Such a splendid character.

His punish game is busted as hell.

 

[Emblem Lord]

SHHHHHHHHHH

The lambs must not know brother.

They would NEVER understand such beauty.

 

[Nu~]

Punishes you say?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnBuNBS8kwY

I dare you to whiff an attack at 50<

But if you miss the tech you probably suck anyways lolol

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I'm watching Ike dittos in Losers Finals at Invictus.

This is so silly. The edgeguarding in the ditto is so dumb.

Ike gets 1st and shares 3rd with Ross's other characters. Uair killed Lucario at 80% at Smashville with no rage. Hurray for now having either the strongest or 2nd strongest Uair in the game.

Ryo needs to stop going for Usmash so much. The Ike Skype chat was yelling at him constantly, missed so many early kills because he didn't go for grab -> uair. Or even just Dthrow at a few points.

 

[PK Gaming]

Are you... are you having a conversation with yourself?

 

[san.]

Ike gets 1st and shares 3rd with Ross's other characters. Uair killed Lucario at 80% at Smashville with no rage. Hurray for now having either the strongest or 2nd strongest Uair in the game.

Ryo needs to stop going for Usmash so much. The Ike Skype chat was yelling at him constantly, missed so many early kills because he didn't go for grab -> uair. Or even just Dthrow at a few points.

I go for usmash if 2 things occur:

1. The opponent used his double jump
2. I have stage control and the opponent can't rightfully challenge me or evade.

It's probably not good to just whip it out whenever.

 

[Man Li Gi]

People here saying this and that about the winner of the patches........I won't explicitly 4 explain why (as seen spiteful people may try and start complaining about it), but DK, that chracter that always goes low under the radar, probably got one the biggest buffs.

The resurrection of a forbidden technique that was given to his nephew has finally been blessed onto his uncle.

 

[ffdgh]

People here saying this and that about the winner of the patches........I won't explicitly 4 explain why (as seen spiteful people may try and start complaining about it), but DK, that chracter that always goes low under the radar, probably got one the biggest buffs.

The resurrection of a forbidden technique that was given to his nephew has finally been blessed onto his uncle.

He's finally back to kick some tail!
Truth be told, I'm more ok with DK having that than Diddy...no offense Diddy peeps lol.

 

[Firefoxx]

People here saying this and that about the winner of the patches........I won't explicitly 4 explain why (as seen spiteful people may try and start complaining about it), but DK, that chracter that always goes low under the radar, probably got one the biggest buffs.

The resurrection of a forbidden technique that was given to his nephew has finally been blessed onto his uncle.

I'm still unpacking so I didn't get to watch it, but Abadango tweeted out calling himself DKAbadango earlier. And apparently had a stream with the same name. Seems you aren't alone in this assessment.

But yeah, even if he is forbidden from using his Wind God powers, the future is looking bright for DK

 

[san.]

Ike received that forbidden technique too, except his uair is way stronger than DK's (but oddly not in %).

 

[Mr. Johan]

Robin also got the forbidden technique that mains have rechristened as CheckMate, but to make up for the poor grab range he has, he has two disjointed setups into the grab, along with Uair endlag low enough that he can bust out a Bair or Fsmash if it's airdodged out. Plus it beats double jumps.

Not an equal substitute for mobility, but what Robin's got has their own individual threat level regardless.

 

[Emblem Lord]

No disrespect but good luck consistently getting grabs to Ike, DK, and Robin. Sonic, Fox, Sheik etc all run circles around yall. Gonna need them hard reads.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

No disrespect but good luck consistently getting grabs to Ike, DK, and Robin. Sonic, Fox, Sheik etc all run circles around yall. Gonna need them hard reads.

Ike has zero problem with Sonic and can grab him quite reliably. Bluntly the MU is probably in Ike's favour at this point.

Fox and Sheik are more difficult, but we have moves that combo into grab. Those two are also lightweights so we just have to land one with them at about 80% (Ike will almost for sure have rage at that point) and they're dead.

 

[Smog Frog]

good luck running circles around any of them. giant hitboxes are a struggle to run around

also how is in favor? i'm curious.

 

[Ikes]

Do you feel it... A cold breeze on the back of your neck? You feel a serious chill and then it quickly dawns on you. "No.... No not again!" You run to look at the calendar crossing your fingers and hoping against hope but you know there's no hiding from it...

It's Once Again Time For The /r/smashbros Monthly Voted Tier List!​

Yep, it's the first of the month! This tier list will cover customs off AND on as well (since I promised it would post Evo) and will be the first new /r/smashbros tier list for our new thread (how special). So feel free to go over there, vote, and discuss a bit and see how the masses at large feel about characters. With this newest patch and Evo being done I'm going to guess this thing will be VERY interesting.

horrible timing considering there's no real consensus on any of the patch changes.

 

[Nabbitnator]

Ike has zero problems grabbing sonic?

 

[Smog Frog]

Ike has zero problems grabbing sonic?

i dont follow either. i could understand the matchup being even by virtue of giant hitboxes, but how is it any less difficult for to grab him than say or ?

 

[-RedX-]

The reason that forbidden technique was silly is because Diddy has the ability to setup that grab so much more often than the current characters who have it. It's perfectly fine for low mobility characters to have some sort of kill setup off a grab imo. Diddy having it with his specs was kinda stupid.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

good luck running circles around any of them. giant hitboxes are a struggle to run around

also how is in favor? i'm curious.

You can grab Sonic out of spindash, or in Ike's case punish it with Bair if they do anything but go straight up after hitting your shield. Which makes them predictable and then Uair/Nair/Fair catches a lot of Sonic's options whenever he tries to come back down. Sonic also doesn't have much in the way of options for getting around Nair/Bair/Fair as those aerials don't leave much of anything to punish, particularly the later two with their autocanceling and fairly significant shield push.

Ike is also obviously killing Sonic way earlier than Sonic is killing Ike, and Ike is just about keeping up with Sonic in terms of wracking up damage with his throw combos. If Sonic does anything remotely unsafe he gets punished hard. The game Sonic wants to play (slowing down the game) works in Ike's favour and he's taking bigger gambles than Ike has to.

His recovery like every other recovery also falls victim to the "Eruption absolutely murders anybody who has to grab the ledge due to the few frames where you aren't invincible but can't do anything about it" issue.

Let me put it this way: at that tournament today with the Ikes coming 1st and 3rd? Ross (3rd place guy) switched out of Sheik to Ike against Sonic and took the set.

It was considered about 45-55 Sonic's favour before the last two patches. Then Ike got better both times and Sonic got worse both times. *shrugs*

 

[Smog Frog]

i'd say didnt get nerfed at all this patch. the nerf is so trivial i find it scrubbish and confusing people are actually complaining about it.

also how is getting grabs on a staticmanny style of ?

 

[-RedX-]

Adding onto results for Ike vs Sonic, I have beaten 2 out of the 3 NYC Sonics (Camalange and BlueTerrorist if I have to name drop) in tournament sets so far. Haven't played Wes yet.

 

[Antonykun]

are we really calling down throw up air a forbidden technique?
well better than hoo hah i guess

 

[Nidtendofreak]

i'd say didnt get nerfed at all this patch. the nerf is so trivial i find it scrubbish and confusing people are actually complaining about it.

also how is getting grabs on a staticmanny style of ?

A nerf in kill power is a nerf in kill power. Can't brush it aside and pretend it didn't happen. Its more significant against characters like Ike that weight more and live longer.

And the match starts at 0% for both does it not? Why on earth is Ike going to approach? Beyond that, its not particularly difficult to bait stuff with Fair/Bair/Nair. And they will react, otherwise they're going to slowly get punished into a corner by giant hitboxes. And then how does Sonic normally move around the stage? Spin dash. Which leads right into the previously described chain of options.

I'm not aware of a single Ike that doesn't think the MU isn't even or in our favour. Unless Rango still thinks that's the case but he has some... rather odd MU opinions at times.

 

[Nu~]

are we really calling down throw up air a forbidden technique?
well better than hoo hah i guess

Darn. Right when the Beep Boop and Hallehoo Hah were becoming legit.

 

[wedl!!]

that actually sounds like the / mu except has kill confirms off of grabs and one of the biggest disjoints in the game

at least turnips exist

 

[irokex13]

Robin is the least mobile character in a game where sheer mobility trumps a lot of other attributes.

Wrong. While Robin's ground speed is the overall lowest, their air speed is slightly above average. Robin's OVERALL mobility is not the worst in the game.

Robin has unspectcular frame data in a game where frame data is an important facet of a character.

Again, wrong. Robin doesn't have a single move with more than 16 frames of startup. The main kill moves/damage rackers/combo starters are jab (4 frames), grab (7 frames), fair (11 frames), bair and up air (9 and 10 respectively). That's really not bad.

Robin's moves - apart from his projectiles - all have a good deal of commitment to them - in a game where safety is king.

First of all, like 80% of Robin's game is projectiles, so discounting those is kinda dumb. Second, Robin does have some safe things. Fire Jab and down smash are much safer than they appear. And to add in projectiles, retreating ArcFire is actually somewhat challenging to punish. All of the Thunder spells should be harder to punish now.

Now add those issues together and you have a character with glaring holes in his gameplay. It takes quite a bit to make up for that. Does Robin have what it takes? I don't see the amazing footsie options in neutral [grab jab and tilts are all pretty lackluster], damage out put or even recovery that could help Robin overcome these weaknesses. More reliable KO options is a huge deal though by itself not enough to make Robin a good character.

This is what makes me think that you do not know how to play Robin. Robin's Jab is absolutely fantastic, with the wind jab racking up as much as 21% on fast fallers. Even if the opponent DI's out of the final hit, Robin won't be punished for it. And the jab kills at around 130-140% without rage. Fire Jab kills at around 120% near the ledge and starts working when characters can fall out of the wind jab. The new grab buff means that Robin kills everyone from down throw at kill percents, and the grab leads into combos and traps at every relevant percent. I'll give you that Robin has bland tilts, but Robin more than makes up for it with their aerials, with all of them killing sub-120%.

Robin's damage output is also one of the highest in the game. They are hitting you for +15% for every exchange. ArcFire/ArcThunder practically guarantee +20% and lead to killing moves! I can't see any argument for this one. And ElWind is not this godawful recovery that everyone thinks it is. Robin can drift quite a bit between the two hits, and it can spike those who screw up offstage trying to edgeguard Robin. With the combination of ArcFire, Robin's air speed, and ElWind's height, Robin should be able to safely recover most of the time.

While I bolded my responses, I would really like to ask people to have an accurate impression of a character before they rant about them. Sharing untrue opinions can leave lasting impressions and will negatively impact the development of that character's meta, along with the threat of unnecessary buffs/nerfs.

 

[Gamegenie222]

Ike gets 1st and shares 3rd with Ross's other characters. Uair killed Lucario at 80% at Smashville with no rage. Hurray for now having either the strongest or 2nd strongest Uair in the game.

Ryo needs to stop going for Usmash so much. The Ike Skype chat was yelling at him constantly, missed so many early kills because he didn't go for grab -> uair. Or even just Dthrow at a few points.

Speaking of said matches they are out on YT.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Robins holes in neutral def got smaller thanks to arcthunder buffs. But he remains high risk high reward overall if he wants to actually kill people. thats fine though. He DOES have mobility issues. That is obvious. But he is more properly rewarded for the gambles he takes. Is he top tier? No.

But the question we need to ask is...is he functional? Does his gameplan have merit and does playing him properly yield a reward?

I think the answer to that is now a resounding "YES!!!"

 

[san.]

A nerf in kill power is a nerf in kill power. Can't brush it aside and pretend it didn't happen. Its more significant against characters like Ike that weight more and live longer.

And the match starts at 0% for both does it not? Why on earth is Ike going to approach? Beyond that, its not particularly difficult to bait stuff with Fair/Bair/Nair. And they will react, otherwise they're going to slowly get punished into a corner by giant hitboxes. And then how does Sonic normally move around the stage? Spin dash. Which leads right into the previously described chain of options.

I'm not aware of a single Ike that doesn't think the MU isn't even or in our favour. Unless Rango still thinks that's the case but he has some... rather odd MU opinions at times.

I thought it was pretty even, but a lot of Sonics seem to be losing the MU in practice..

 

[Smog Frog]

is a legit high tier character in most peoples minds now? he seems to have what it takes.