Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Luigi player]

Luigi could do 2 fairs and then nair before he lands (now he can't do nair anymore). And dair didn't have much endinglag already. Like I said, Luigi looks about the same. Though his downB got a lot slower on the ground, which made me believe he's much worse when the game released.

 

[Vipermoon]

That Samus against Falco was like 'DIE MAGGOT!' but Falco reaches 200% and still hasn't died.

But honestly. Mewtwo survived missiles at like 200%.

Samus' F-smash is dodged by just walking to her.

Seriously now.

Hey stop! This is best character in this game according to the guys who gave her knockback and hitboxes like that.

 

[LancerStaff]

Better reward than Falco's Blaster... Every projectile has better reward than his Blaster.


Yes, let's pin everything on Sakurai and never mention how Sora Ltd., Bandai Namco, and Nintendo are all involved. Sakurai didn't make this game; he, his team, Namco, and Nintendo were all involved. Hell, we're involved too considering the **** that happened involving Diddy, Link, Fox, Pac-Man, Yoshi, and more as we expose glitches, bugs, and **** game design.

Not the point, man... 'Sides, Sakurai came out and said that he ultimately controls what buffs and nerfs go through. I don't blame Sakurai for it either. Wouldn't want anybody else in charge of Smash, actually.

 

[Ffamran]

Hey stop! This is best character in this game according to the guys who gave her knockback and hitboxes like that.

I think they were confused since there's 2 Sami in this game like how there's 2 Links, 4 Marios, and 2 Zeldas. They were probably referring to the Superior Samus: Zero Suit Samus.

Not the point, man... 'Sides, Sakurai came out and said that he ultimately controls what buffs and nerfs go through. I don't blame Sakurai for it either. Wouldn't want anybody else in charge of Smash, actually.

Yes, and he can't be swayed by his co-workers, QA testers, and player feedback... If I suggested that Mario's Up Smash does 23% uncharged, I should be stabbed to death for being a moron.

He may be the director, but there are people with more power over him, people of various levels who can influence him, and evidence or arguments that can be made to enforce a change. If I told you that socialists are idiots, that's a poor argument, but if I brought up various things, such as explaining extreme socialism as bad, that might be a better argument for socialism is dumb.

 

[Vipermoon]

Lol probably. Who's the 4th Mario?

 

[Snackss]

@ Ffamran No, stop. Sakurai did this to Falco. IT WAS ALL HIM

Samus being totally overlooked is sad. The buffs and fixes that would help her wouldn't even have much of an effect on free-for-all.

 

[Balgorxz]

considering every patch is 90% buffs/10% nerfs, soon they only tiers will be A tier,B tier and Samus tier.

seriously link the samus video to sakurai and the smash dev team, works everytime.

 

[Blobface]

@ Ffamran No, stop. Sakurai did this to Falco. IT WAS ALL HIM

Samus being totally overlooked is sad. The buffs and fixes that would help her wouldn't even have much of an effect on free-for-all.

Samus would probably be just dandy if she only had

• properly linking jab
• slightly faster grab
• fixing of all the silly happenings in that video seriously what's with these hitboxes.

 

[bc1910]

The range is still small.

Honestly. Luigi's Fireballs feels clunky now. I miss the old Fireballs...

I know how you feel. After the shuriken nerf, Greninja just felt... horrible to play. Way too clunky for a fast "ninja" character. A nerf to a character's core projectile always feels really bad.

 

[Routa]

Lol probably. Who's the 4th Mario?

Mario, Green Mario (aka Luigi), PhD Mario (aka Doc) and Bad Mario (aka Wario)

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja never felt bad for me to play, the nerfs hit him hard but he never felt bad or clunky.

Still, I won't complain about these nice shurikens though I still have to adapt to them being this fast lol.

 

[Ikes]

luigi isnt overrated, you people just have this arbitrary belief that x weakness = super exploitable

look at wario, he's got very minimal range but he's what, number 4 in japan? that's pretty good for someone "gimped" by his own range.

 

[TriTails]

Had I knew about the Fireball nerf, I wouldn't play Luigi until 1.1.0. Finding one of your most used things that needs near-frame perfect execution to work well getting an increase in end lag and absolutely screws up your timing just... gah.

It's even MORE infuriating the whole end lag was only increased by 3 frames. ONLY.

Double gah.

 

[PK Gaming]

Someone's bound to post this here, so might as post it now. Yay, Samus...

that's hilarious

i'm sorry samus mains but... that's goddamn hilarious

 

[ffdgh]

I know how you feel. After the shuriken nerf, Greninja just felt... horrible to play. Way too clunky for a fast "ninja" character. A nerf to a character's core projectile always feels really bad.

Indeed. It's manageable but I miss Peach's melee/brawl down B speed.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja never felt bad for me to play, the nerfs hit him hard but he never felt bad or clunky.

Still, I won't complain about these nice shurikens though I still have to adapt to them being this fast lol.

I just meant immediately after the nerf, really. Before getting used to it, it was a real shock. He felt fine after a while.

I'm struggling to use these nice shurikens too. I can't believe they're this fast, I can't get used to actually pressuring with shurikens again rather than just short hopping around in neutral. In terms of patch changes, it's a real first world problem

So, thoughts on Sonic after the latest patch? Nothing happened to him except a small Fsmash nerf, but I was reading through this thread and I couldn't believe my eyes. The amount of whining was ridiculous. Sonic is still an exceptionally viable character, right?

 

[RayNoire]

Someone's bound to post this here, so might as post it now. Yay, Samus...

Mewtwo mains can sympathize. At least Samus is heavy and doesn't have a Russia-sized hurtbox (but Mewtwo can kill, so we're square).

 

[ぱみゅ]

I wouldn't mind Samus' jab not properly linking if it was like Marth/Lucina's and allowed followup mixups (even if none are guaranteed), those could include the second hit of that jab, but should definitely include grab, Screw Attack, Dash Attack Maybe, any of her tilts,, etc.

 

[Routa]

Tbh Samus is good... Now you may ask what? Well I mean she has Charge Shot, Gunner Missile, Cannon Uppercut ans Bomb Drop.

 

[Teshie U]

Samus is just lacking that close range game.

Reduce cooldown on dsmash and dtilt so she can more safely cover her blindspots and she is fine. A kill throw would be nice too. Give Upthrow set knockback and make it true combo into up B (this move isn't very powerful anyway) for kills at 150.

Make bombs linger around longer and/or have less lag so they can be used to set up and cover options.

Most of the character is honestly pretty good. She is some really powerful tools.

 

[RayNoire]

The sobering reality of life in the bottom tier.

 

[Browny]

You do realise that a lot of characters have issues when hitting crouching opponents right?

Man your Mewtwo hate knows no bounds.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Soon Emperor Marth...so very soon. Your reign shall return.

MUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

One more patch my liege.

Just..one...more

 

[RayNoire]

You do realise that a lot of characters have issues when hitting crouching opponents right?

Man your Mewtwo hate knows no bounds.

I doubt there's too many characters that have trouble hitting a crouching Samus. She's not Pikachu.

What I don't understand is why you would actively oppose raising awareness for your characters' problems so that they might be fixed. WFT got a good hitbox change this patch, so it's very possible that Samus and Mewtwo could get some help next time.

...Or instead, we could pretend that everyone is perfect, tiers don't exist, et cetera. Might as well close this thread, in that case.

 

[momochuu]

Had I knew about the Fireball nerf, I wouldn't play Luigi until 1.1.0. Finding one of your most used things that needs near-frame perfect execution to work well getting an increase in end lag and absolutely screws up your timing just... gah.

It's even MORE infuriating the whole end lag was only increased by 3 frames. ONLY.

Double gah.

Since when does fireball into grab require frame perfect execution?

 

[Ghostbone]

Mewtwo's jab doesn't even look like it should connect there though.

Like if you want to hit Samus they'd have to move the hitbox closer to mewtwo giving it less range.

 

[Nobie]

A few things:

1) It's okay for characters to have weaknesses, geez. When looking at how characters are patched, I always see the suggestions being "Remove their weak points! They aggravate me and I wish they'd go away!" Like, I know that having a character's weaknesses exploited feels so awful when you're on the receiving end, but it's better than evening them out and homogenizing characters.

Mewtwo, for example, while yeah I'd love it if they did things like put on more invincibility for his rolls and such (did anyone check to see if ledge getup isn't so terrible anymore?), I think the Down Smash and Forward Throw buffs work so well in line with the type of character Mewtwo is supposed to be, which is that glass cannon. Down Smash kills significantly earlier now, and is a threat to characters who are both either light or floaty because the angle it sends you away. It's basically a slightly worse Meta Knight F-Smash. Forward Throw is now I think the strongest throw in the game in terms of damage. Those sorts of small numbers add up. I think any Mewtwo player is aware of the fact that often times if the first up throw doesn't get 'em, the second one will, and being able to tack on an extra 3% here and there adds up over time.

2) Samus might be low tier or whatever, but pointing out all of the weaknesses of her "missing" hitboxes feels a bit disingenuous, because a lot of those attacks are still really good.

Dash Attack moves Samus way the hell forward, does decent damage, leads into combos and followups. Sure, it doesn't hit up close, but both Falcon and Meta Knight have dash grabs that whiff at close range, and I don't think anyone considers those bad dash grabs, just the opposite. It's a bit apples and oranges because it's a dash attack vs. a grab, but having a dash attack move you forward that much is a good thing, even if it's not ideal.

Oh no, Samus grabs aren't kill moves. This might sound strange coming from a Mewtwo but why are people so obsessed with every character having incredible throws, whether it's Marth "needing" combo throws or Samus's lack of kill throws? "All" she can do is rapid pummel (thus reducing staling on her stronger moves), and still throw them off stage and force them to confront a charge shot, which now after all of those pummels is either likely fresh or close to it. It's still a tether, of course, but hey.

Speaking of kill moves, I don't think Samus is lacking them in any way either. A Frame 10 F-Smash that kills fairly early when sweetspotted? Screw Attack? Up Tilt? Down Tilt? CHARGE SHOT? Let's also keep in mind that Samus is HEAVY and so gets rage built up onto her fairly easily. Coming from Mega Man, knowing how rage affects your moves is especially vital, because as he takes more damage the number of kill moves he has increases. While I'm not certain on this, I do wonder if Samus is also affected by this.

I think overall Samus is not meant to be a "reliable" character in the sense that option A naturally flows into option B. Almost everything you have to do is based on trying to pick the right choice in context rather than there being a right choice in general. Jab 1 doesn't link into Jab 2, but you can Jab once and then go for something else, and when they start to counter whatever else you're doing, that's when you Jab 2. She has the tools to fight at close and long range, and you have to choose which is the right choice in any given situation.

3) Falco does make sense as a character, it's just that his past incarnations have often skewed him away from what he was supposed to be. Losing dair hurts, and that's something i perhaps don't agree with, but if you look at how Falco is set up in Smash 4, he's basically meant to not really approach from a long distance. Short hop lasers are out, run speed is bad.

However, lasers in general prevent the opponent from trying to get too much distance from Falco. They force approaches, and are good for tacking on bits of damage if the opponent tries to break away. If they try to fight a projectile war, why look, there's a reflector that's ALSO A TRANSCENDENT PROJECTILE. Run speed is bad, but walk speed is great. So basically, Falco is designed to force approaches into close range where his neutral and footsies are well above average. Falco draws you into him, into the area where he excels. The results didn't quite live up to the design a few patches ago, but tiny, tiny changes have made such a difference. If his game plan wasn't clear before, I think it certainly is now, and the only thing preventing people from seeing that is "wah, where's my laser canceling, wah, where's my instant spike?"

 

[TriTails]

Since when does fireball into grab require frame perfect execution?

You need to be near-frame perfect to gain the most out of Fireballs. The more frame perfect you are, the closer you are to people.

I wouldn't say it MUST be frame perfect but you still need to move the earliest you can so you can gain the most out of Fireballs. If you are used to the end lag, it is easy to do so (Not grabbing, but acting as early as possible), but since the end lag is increased enough to screw up the timing, you gotta adapt to them...

 

[RayNoire]

Mewtwo's jab doesn't even look like it should connect there though.

Like if you want to hit Samus they'd have to move the hitbox closer to mewtwo giving it less range.

That's fine until you realize that that logic only applies to low-tiers. Meanwhile, Mario's Usmash hits under the ledge and Captain Falcon's dash attack hits you well before it hits you.

Plus, WFT's grab hitbox is technically less accurate to the animation now. Sometimes practicality has to win out over aesthetics.

 

[Ghostbone]

Mario's head looks like it should hit at the ledge tbh.

Oh no, Samus grabs aren't kill moves. This might sound strange coming from a Mewtwo but why are people so obsessed with every character having incredible throws, whether it's Marth "needing" combo throws or Samus's lack of kill throws? "All" she can do is rapid pummel (thus reducing staling on her stronger moves), and still throw them off stage and force them to confront a charge shot, which now after all of those pummels is either likely fresh or close to it. It's still a tether, of course, but hey.

The fact that Samus has such a ****ty tether grab (tied for worst along with ZSS) should justify her having amazing throws (including a kill throw)

This logic is correctly applied to villager, ZSS, Lucas, Link (d-throw up-air true combos right?), toon link at least has a kill throw, etc.
Samus is just badly designed

 

[TriTails]

Meanwhile, Mario's Usmash hits under the ledge

News to me.

He probably better going D-smash as an edgeguarding tool though. It is the most powerful at the ledge and at least can kill without having to rack up 150% or something.

And the angle is unforgiving to Little Mac. Ganon also.

 

[RayNoire]

It should be noted also that both Captain and Mario have jabs that hit behind them.

Anyway, it wasn't the most egregious example. I just thought it was funny that all these massive buffs are being passed around and meanwhile two of the worst characters are still struggling to hit each other at point-blank. >_>

 

[Ghostbone]

The dev team probably still thinks Samus is the best character lol.

 

[TriTails]

The dev team probably still thinks Samus is the best character lol.

She has a lot of problems need to be fixed, but I would like U-air not having a screwy angle.

I used U-air on a floaty, has the 2nd slowest airspeed in the game, normal hurtbox and U-air STILL whiff 80% of the friggin' time.

Luigi shouldn't fall out attacks that much. But this move probably has the worst linking properties after pre-patch Falco's N-air. I mean, they give Fox's rapid jab an actual hitbox that pushes them to the air (So his jab don't link people to the ground and allow them to shield his own attack and punish him for it), Falco's N-air an actual auto-link angle, a similiar yet MUCH more consistent U-air to Sheik, Shulk an F-smash that don't whiff the 2nd hit anymore. At least give Samus a working U-air!

 

[bc1910]

I used to think that because Samus is a Wi-Fi God, that was holding her back from getting buffs. But Link and Toon Link (who are better characters anyway) are Wi-Fi Gods and have both received some nice buffs. So I really don't know what the problem is with Samus.

With Mewtwo I think they are hell bent on making him faithful to his Melee incarnation and so aren't experimenting with the big buffs he needs, moveset wise. Some hitbox fixes wouldn't hirt anyone though and he was heavier in Melee, a weight buff alone would make Mewtwo a hell of a lot better, so I don't know why they won't try that.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

With Mewtwo I think they are hell bent on making him faithful to his Melee incarnation and so aren't experimenting with the big buffs he needs, moveset wise.

Mewtwo's moveset is pretty solid actually. It's his attributes that hold him back, mainly his weight.

 

[Ghostbone]

With Mewtwo I think they are hell bent on making him faithful to his Melee incarnation and so aren't experimenting with the big buffs he needs, moveset wise. Some hitbox fixes wouldn't hirt anyone though and he was heavier in Melee, a weight buff alone would make Mewtwo a hell of a lot better, so I don't know why they won't try that.

I don't think they've ever changed a character's weight? (or run/walk/air speed)

So don't count on that ever actually happening.

 

[Shaya]

Next patch they may do something Ike-proper and make forward air come out on frame 5, and make dash attack and down smash useful.

Either way, this patch has been the first damage buff he's gotten the entire length of the game. And it's on NEUTRAL AIR.
Which is now apparently the strongest knock back neutral air in the game (as a tipper). 2% buff (1% on each hit) is pretty good, it was desperately underwhelming and was something I've been "praying" to have happen for a while.

Spoiler

Oh look, it's basically the same animation, look at that snapping back forward heaps extra horizontal reaching hitbox, killing people at 100% aye? aww baby

All the aerials 2 frames off and I'm getting fair fsmashes already ezpez. Nair might not have, but shield stun wise it could be as much as 2 frames soooooo.
I suddenly feel like I'm playing a more Brawl-like Marth... jumping around and anticipating actions and responding with fast fallen aerials.... feels really good on him.... ughhh the beauty.
Oh, 4 frames off of down air too. Fast fall down air follow ups no longer feeling abnormally stupid (and I think some combos or frame traps could exist from hitting people on the ground with it).

I'm pretty certain up tilt into up air is a thing, I'm not sure how late and if it will at kill percent, but it -could- be true.
3 frames landing off of dolphin slash has it perks, I've been catching people above me with a hit and landing shortly after and following up (so from below the ledge or below a platform).

Synergy between his jab, up tilt and all of his aerials are starting to shine through.
Shieldbreaker having 2 frames less lag is nothing to scoff at either, may tip the scales towards being safe well spaced in trap situations now (i.e. the only time shieldbreaker was useful)... and with marth having more pressure with everything, shieldbreaker traps are probably sweeter too.

But yeah, if he gets more buffs next patch... hmmm...
I guess I'm still hoping for auto cancels back (heck, throw another 2 frames off every aerial alternatively, that's fine ), maybe some damage here or there. But I would like to see a "new" down smash and dash attack (or would be excited by it the most).
Oh and a larger hitbox on dolphin slash, it needs that, so he's not the only vertical up-b in the game every character can challenge with their down airs.

 

[Ikes]

Since when does fireball into grab require frame perfect execution?

ive been saying this for ****ing pages now and no one is listening

3 frames is ****ing nothing, luigi's fireballs-to-grab combos are still going to work all the same, dont be so hyper-reactive to such a small change

 

[Routa]

Well Samus has one of the best (or the best) Pummel, but I do agree that she should get a bit more from grab. But I have heard that she can grab Ike out of Aether. Can anyone confirm?