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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

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Shaya

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Anything disjointed can hit or "take" Ike in their clutches.
Link and Zamus can too.

Ike's one of the few characters who doesn't really have a sweetspot, so he has to WORK HARD (slightly more) almost like it's melee (satirical tone).
Many many characters can hit him recovering with up-b.
 
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TriTails

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ive been saying this for ****ing pages now and no one is listening

3 frames is ****ing nothing, luigi's fireballs-to-grab combos are still going to work all the same, dont be so hyper-reactive to such a small change
And it was me who ****ing say the statement. Not him.

3 frames is huge when it comes on zoning and approach. I still need to adapt but the reward should be lower than pre-patch. I don't think it even combos to grab.
 

~ Gheb ~

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3 frames is ****ing nothing, luigi's fireballs-to-grab combos are still going to work all the same, dont be so hyper-reactive to such a small change
Dude, 3 frames is ****ing HUGE. That's the difference between fireballs comboing into grab and fireballs being potentially unsafe on hit at close range.

:059:
 
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Shaya

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Dude, 3 frames is ****ing HUGE. That's the difference between fireballs comboing into grab and fireballs being potentially unsafe on hit at close range.

:059:
They already were unsafe at close range on hit. They still were roughly safe on shield then though.

It'll probably be pretty notable but he likely deserved it tbqh. Fancy having a neutral game that's little but pressing b and grabbing people struggling to approach you?

Yes yes, "luigi can't succeed just doing that", but its the basis of what nearly every character had to respect/deal with.
 
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momochuu

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ive been saying this for ****ing pages now and no one is listening

3 frames is ****ing nothing, luigi's fireballs-to-grab combos are still going to work all the same, dont be so hyper-reactive to such a small change
idk, people love to make their main seem like the hardest character in whatever game they're in. its tradition in every FG really.
 

Smog Frog

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they also blow nerfs to their character way out of proportion. everyone on the :4sonic: boards say he's :sonic: 2.0 and will have to go for timeouts every match.

rip hes gone now
 
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LiteralGrill

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Do you feel it... A cold breeze on the back of your neck? You feel a serious chill and then it quickly dawns on you. "No.... No not again!" You run to look at the calendar crossing your fingers and hoping against hope but you know there's no hiding from it...


Yep, it's the first of the month! This tier list will cover customs off AND on as well (since I promised it would post Evo) and will be the first new /r/smashbros tier list for our new thread (how special). So feel free to go over there, vote, and discuss a bit and see how the masses at large feel about characters. With this newest patch and Evo being done I'm going to guess this thing will be VERY interesting.
 

Nabbitnator

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How is wii fit trainer? Apparently she is bottom 5 but i've never seen that. Is it because of how she works is keeping her down?
 

~ Gheb ~

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They already were unsafe at close range on hit. They still were roughly safe on shield then though.

It'll probably be pretty notable but he likely deserved it tbqh. Fancy having a neutral game that's little but pressing b and grabbing people struggling to approach you?

Yes yes, "luigi can't succeed just doing that", but its the basis of what nearly every character had to respect/deal with.
I don't disagree with any of this though I think increasing the knockback growth of dthrow would probably have been a better way to make the character less ********. Fireballs are just very fickle - nerf them one bit too much and the whole character might just fall apart.

Then again I'm not really sure why they'd nerf a character that doesn't actually win anything in the first place. I mean, contrary to what a lot of people believe, they've actually buffed Fox and I honestly consider that to be a good thing just because that gap that does exist between Sheik > ZSS > rest of the cast justifies buffs for just about every other character. So bring them buffs for Fox, Pikachu, Yoshi, Ness et all for all I care. Ideally they'd manage to 'nerf' Sheik down to ZSS level and buff some 5-8 characters up to ZSS level. That'd be a pretty diverse metagame and about as well balanced as realistically possible.

:059:
 

Smog Frog

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How is wii fit trainer? Apparently she is bottom 5 but i've never seen that. Is it because of how she works is keeping her down?
who is she really better than? honestly thats the case with a lot of low tiers; its not that they're really bad per se, its just that they arent better than anyone else.
 

Nabbitnator

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who is she really better than? honestly thats the case with a lot of low tiers; its not that they're really bad per se, its just that they arent better than anyone else.
We'll the other issue is we don't see a lot of her repped so we don't know who she is better then.
 

Nu~

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Is it too late to complain about sakurai giving no attention to Pac-Man's grab?
It still has a 2 big dead zones and lasts forever while both links get a grab buff.

If sword users keep getting better and sakurai doesn't touch us, our matchups with them may get bad.


At least we can go to battlefield again with this hydrant platform glitch.
 

Snackss

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People consistently say Wii Fit Trainer is low tier, but a couple players also consistently make it far in tournaments as her. You don't play Wii Fit Trainer and feel "this character is totally high tier," but you know that she can be difficult to deal with.
 

TheReflexWonder

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People consistently say Wii Fit Trainer is low tier, but a couple players also consistently make it far in tournaments as her. You don't play Wii Fit Trainer and feel "this character is totally high tier," but you know that she can be difficult to deal with.
Is this happening in a Customs Off environment? I know John12346 does well with Customs On, but I don't know if that applies without customs (nothing against him, I'm just uninformed).
 

C0rvus

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Is this happening in a Customs Off environment? I know John12346 does well with Customs On, but I don't know if that applies without customs (nothing against him, I'm just uninformed).
Well I know of Waveguider, who iirc is a top Austrailian player in customs off.

Also, love the avatar. Could it be you want Waddle Dee as DLC too?
 
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Browny

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I doubt there's too many characters that have trouble hitting a crouching Samus. She's not Pikachu.

What I don't understand is why you would actively oppose raising awareness for your characters' problems so that they might be fixed. WFT got a good hitbox change this patch, so it's very possible that Samus and Mewtwo could get some help next time.

...Or instead, we could pretend that everyone is perfect, tiers don't exist, et cetera. Might as well close this thread, in that case.
Your mentality towards your character is skewed because of the existence of patches in this game.

In other smash games if your character was perceived as low tier, you would study the game, learn matchups, practice and basically do the best you can to advance your characters potential through discovering optimal playstyles and punishes. The saying "Deal with the cards you're dealt" is good and you could learn from it. If you spent the amount of time you do trash talking Mewtwo on smashboards and instead spent that time discovering new optimal ways to use his moveset and sharing your findings publicly (videos will help), you'd probably do more for the character than simply hoping for buffs in patches.

Attempting to 'raise awareness' to the general SWF crowd is quite futile since
A) Nintendo doesn't care about what the average SWF member thinks and
B) No top/influential player cares about what the average SWF member thinks

If Mewtwo is going to receive buffs in the future, they will happen regardless of anything that goes on in this forum. In the meantime, focus on making your character better, not trying to make everyone on SWF believe they're bad as if that is somehow going to magically translate to getting a buff. It's literally a pointless waste of time which is only ever going to upset you.

I wouldn't even be surprised if the only source used for patching this game is raw for glory data. Since FG players will mimick the strats used by top players, they would have seen an abundance of diddys doing hoo-hah etc.
 
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⑨ball

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Plus, WFT's grab hitbox is technically less accurate to the animation now. Sometimes practicality has to win out over aesthetics.
WFT's grab is a squat and scoop animation that starts at her knees(or about G&W's head). It's actually pretty spot on now.

who is she really better than? honestly thats the case with a lot of low tiers; its not that they're really bad per se, its just that they arent better than anyone else.
How do we define better in terms of viability?
 
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RayNoire

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Your mentality towards your character is skewed because of the existence of patches in this game.

In other smash games if your character was perceived as low tier, you would study the game, learn matchups, practice and basically do the best you can to advance your characters potential through discovering optimal playstyles and punishes. The saying "Deal with the cards you're dealt" is good and you could learn from it. If you spent the amount of time you do trash talking Mewtwo on smashboards and instead spent that time discovering new optimal ways to use his moveset and sharing your findings publicly (videos will help), you'd probably do more for the character than simply hoping for buffs in patches.

Attempting to 'raise awareness' to the general SWF crowd is quite futile since
A) Nintendo doesn't care about what the average SWF member thinks and
B) No top/influential player cares about what the average SWF member thinks

If Mewtwo is going to receive buffs in the future, they will happen regardless of anything that goes on in this forum. In the meantime, focus on making your character better, not trying to make everyone on SWF believe they're bad as if that is somehow going to magically translate to getting a buff. It's literally a pointless waste of time which is only ever going to upset you.

I wouldn't even be surprised if the only source used for patching this game is raw for glory data. Since FG players will mimick the strats used by top players, they would have seen an abundance of diddys doing hoo-hah etc.
...Again, might as well close up the thread (or the entire site), since there's no point in talking about anything and nothing matters.

Why doesn't the same apply to you, or anyone else? Why aren't you making your character better instead of posting long screeds against people on a forum? Why don't you just deal with the fact that I can't deal, and prove me wrong by winning tournaments with Mewtwo (which despite how much I apparently hate him, I am one of the only people placing anywhere with him)?

Also, I mained a character that got a massive change right as people became aware of something that went viral (Link). Link's jab cancels were nonexistent on FG, and if FG was all that mattered, Link wouldn't have been massively buffed in the next patch either.

Who knows what they listen to? All I know is that public opinion obviously does matter to some extent, and that's something we can influence in whatever small degree. Regardless, it's a hell of a lot more productive than just sitting here circle-jerking on the same **** for 800 some pages.

Sorry if this came off too strong, but I'm clearly being singled out here and I'm not having it.
 
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NachoOfCheese

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Your mentality towards your character is skewed because of the existence of patches in this game.

In other smash games if your character was perceived as low tier, you would study the game, learn matchups, practice and basically do the best you can to advance your characters potential through discovering optimal playstyles and punishes. The saying "Deal with the cards you're dealt" is good and you could learn from it. If you spent the amount of time you do trash talking Mewtwo on smashboards and instead spent that time discovering new optimal ways to use his moveset and sharing your findings publicly (videos will help), you'd probably do more for the character than simply hoping for buffs in patches.

Attempting to 'raise awareness' to the general SWF crowd is quite futile since
A) Nintendo doesn't care about what the average SWF member thinks and
B) No top/influential player cares about what the average SWF member thinks

If Mewtwo is going to receive buffs in the future, they will happen regardless of anything that goes on in this forum. In the meantime, focus on making your character better, not trying to make everyone on SWF believe they're bad as if that is somehow going to magically translate to getting a buff. It's literally a pointless waste of time which is only ever going to upset you.

I wouldn't even be surprised if the only source used for patching this game is raw for glory data. Since FG players will mimick the strats used by top players, they would have seen an abundance of diddys doing hoo-hah etc.
"Play the damn game"
~ @Omni
 

Deathcarter

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How is wii fit trainer? Apparently she is bottom 5 but i've never seen that. Is it because of how she works is keeping her down?
After all the buffs Wii Fit got, I'm definitely not calling her bottom five anymore. From the Wii Fit Trainer patch thread:

Utilt - damaged increased from 8 to 10
Fsmash - hitbox sizes increased

Usmash - hitbox size increased, KBG increased, KBG increased by 2 on all hitboxes

Dsmash - damage increased from 10/8 12/10, KBG increased 107→110

Nair - 1st hit hitbox size increased, 2nd hit knockback growth increased, KGB increased by 2 on all hitboxes

Fair - KBG increased by 2 on all hitboxes

Bair - KBG increased by 2 on all hitboxes

Uair- KBG increased by 2 on all hitboxes

Dair - knockback growth increased by 2, late hit base knockback increased
Standing grab, Dash Grab, Pivot Grab - hitbox lowered

Header - KBG increased by 1 on all hitboxes and custom variations
Header Cancel recovery drastically reduced

Header(ball) health increased

Default and Sweeping Sun healing buffed by 1%

All Sun Bullet projectiles BKB increased by 1

Deep Breathing buffed (something around an additional .30%)
I think I can safely say that Wii Trainer won this patch.
 
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Firefoxx

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Weirdly enough, it is possible to both discuss problems with characters and ways they could be improved AND advance their current metagame. Contrary to popular belief, human beings can do multiple things at once.
 

zeldasmash

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I think the best way to sum up Samus is that she is outclassed. Samus has really good tools in her moveset (Dthrow, Charge Shot, Zair, Bair, Dair, Uair, Bombs, Screw Attack), but the thing is that everyone in her class can do what she can do, but just a lot better. However, Jab, Homing Missle, Dsmash, Usmash and her hitbox placement need to be fixed.

Mewtwo is pretty much the same way: He has all the tools needed to compete (the same with Samus), but Mewtwo has lot of trouble landing hits due to their hitbox placement. Plus he is large and the second lightest. Make him heavier and fix his hitboxes and he will be better.

Both these characters have the tools to compete with the rest of the cast, they are just held back by questionable design choices.
 

san.

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I think the winners (other than Miis of course) are Greninja and Ike, along with WFT and Marth. Wii Fit and Marth needed those kinds of changes, and in Marth's case they seem more like QoL since I'm not sure how often Marth likes to land with aerials. Just feels different than the nature of his jab buff, other than the nair change.

Greninja has a very nice throw game now, which even possibly extends to his footstool game as well. The changes to shuriken gives him better options since shuriken can stall and control space somewhat.

Even though Ike only received 1 meaningful change, it may have very well given him among the strongest uairs in the game. It's as strong as Ness' uair at 0 rage and possibly becomes the strongest in the game with rage.
 
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Nabbitnator

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I think the best way to sum up Samus is that she is outclassed. Samus has really good tools in her moveset (Dthrow, Charge Shot, Zair, Bair, Dair, Uair, Bombs, Screw Attack), but the thing is that everyone in her class can do what she can do, but just a lot better. However, Jab, Homing Missle, Dsmash, Usmash and her hitbox placement need to be fixed.

Mewtwo is pretty much the same way: He has all the tools needed to compete (the same with Samus), but Mewtwo has lot of trouble landing hits due to their hitbox placement. Plus he is large and the second lightest. Make him heavier and fix his hitboxes and he will be better.

Both these characters have the tools to compete with the rest of the cast, they are just held back by questionable design choices.
Both of those characters need to be revised with how their hitbox functions. Until i saw that video (other then her dash attack not working) i've never seen how much just doesnt work. Thats something that affects their viablility.
 

PK Gaming

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a few things"
Your intentions are in the right place, but there's a lot of downplaying in this post, and a fundamental misunderstanding of character balance in general.

Samus might be low tier or whatever, but pointing out all of the weaknesses of her "missing" hitboxes feels a bit disingenuous, because a lot of those attacks are still really good.
I mean this alone shows that you're too busy armchairing to give any actual considerations to Samus mains for how flawed her character is. Might? Low Tier? Really?

I don't even main Falco and I know you're flat out off base about his gameplan too. The lag on his lasers make it too unreliable to force approaches on most of the cast. It's useful in a select few circumstances, but it's ultimately a move that can't be counted on. Not that I personally want it buffed, but I can sympathize with Falco mains, especially after Fox's lasers were buffed.

If his game plan wasn't clear before, I think it certainly is now, and the only thing preventing people from seeing that is "wah, where's my laser canceling, wah, where's my instant spike?"
Knock it off with that childish strawman. What a condescending and and myopic viewpoint.
 
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RedBeefBaron

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As thrilled as I am with the changes to Diddy, Greninja, and virtually everyone that was addressed, the meaningless buff to mewtwo and the fact that we're still ignoring Samus is ridiculous lol.

I mean Greninja, Ness, and Diddy got buffed when they were already top 50% easy. Ike, Marth, Swordsman, and Lucy got buffed again. Many lower tiers like Gunner, Palutena, Zelda, Kirby, Robin, and DK got great buffs and are clearly viable. Luigi got intelligent balancing that won't really change his viability much but will force Luigi players to actually practice and have a basic understanding of risk vs reward. Lucas was buffed VERY generously for the amount of time he's even been playable.

Mewtwo was given trivial buffs that don't make a damn difference last two patches. Samus was ignored again. These two are now shoe ins for bottom tier IMO as everyone around them has been buffed and are much better now. Hopefully they get addressed next patch because if you give those two DK, Robin, or Greninja level buffs and maybe throw like Jiggs and Duck Hunt a Doc level bone there will be no more changes needed and we can actually develop a metagame.

Edit: Oh yeah forgot Wii Fit buffs too.
 
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~ Gheb ~

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Greninja is definitely the biggest winner of the patch in my opinion, followed by Marth.

WFT and Robin may have received more buffs, better buffs, bigger buffs, whatever. But are they viable characters now? Do they cease being dysfunctional character? I have my doubts about it.

Greninja on the other hand looks like a real threat now.

:059:
 

Smog Frog

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i wouldnt exactly call :4mewtwo: buffs trivial. fthrow is now a great damage racking move when it was outclassed by uthrow before. it makes his grab more threatening when you're outside of kill percents.

but i'm still ****ing furious at the developers for completely ignoring this characters straight up flawed coding and extremely light weight. he could at least weigh as much as an athletic human, but he is barely heavier than a ****ing balloon? i call bull****.
 

Emblem Lord

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Super happy for Greninja mains and my Marth brothers.

Ryu still craps on them though.

:troll:
 

RedBeefBaron

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i wouldnt exactly call :4mewtwo: buffs trivial. fthrow is now a great damage racking move when it was outclassed by uthrow before. it makes his grab more threatening when you're outside of kill percents.

but i'm still ****ing furious at the developers for completely ignoring this characters straight up flawed coding and extremely light weight. he could at least weigh as much as an athletic human, but he is barely heavier than a ****ing balloon? i call bull****.
Obviously f throw damage and nair cooldown reduction are both good, but when you think of how awful the nair and grab hitboxes are and how awful all his other flaws are? He's still garbage. Maybe I'm biased? I was so hype for Mewtwo....

Complaining aside, this patch is admittedly ALMOST perfect and Sakurai and the team are very close to being done with balance completely and taking a long vacation.
 
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⑨ball

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WFT and Robin may have received more buffs, better buffs, bigger buffs, whatever. But are they viable characters now? Do they cease being dysfunctional character?
It depends on what made you think they were dysfunctional in the first place I suppose.

We throw around a lot of general terms in these discussions, but I'm not sure we're all on the same page as to how they're defined or how their definitions apply in the meta.

What exactly would you say makes Greninja functional that Robin lacks?
 
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zeldasmash

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It depends on what made you think they were dysfunctional in the first place I suppose.

We throw around a lot of general terms in these discussions, but I'm not sure we're all on the same page as to how they're defined or how their definitions apply in the meta.

What exactly would you say makes Greninja functional that Robin lacks?
Mobility. That is pretty much it.
 

Snackss

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A few things:
2) Samus might be low tier or whatever, but pointing out all of the weaknesses of her "missing" hitboxes feels a bit disingenuous, because a lot of those attacks are still really good.

I think overall Samus is not meant to be a "reliable" character in the sense that option A naturally flows into option B. Almost everything you have to do is based on trying to pick the right choice in context rather than there being a right choice in general. Jab 1 doesn't link into Jab 2, but you can Jab once and then go for something else, and when they start to counter whatever else you're doing, that's when you Jab 2. She has the tools to fight at close and long range, and you have to choose which is the right choice in any given situation.
Except quite a few characters already have frame traps built into jabs that also combo. Samus has a jab that doesn't combo and is a mediocre frame trap. It's a terrible move. Aside from that, it's not hard to make Samus sound like a good character. Except she isn't. Her neutral air is garbage. She's floaty, she has a terrible roll, and has no defense in the air other than down B and try to float away. She's supposed to be able to control space, but her jab and neutral air are both garbage, her forward tilt is average to below average, her projectiles are overall much more linear than Link's. In addition to her wonky hitboxes, she just doesn't really work. No matter how much you try to theorize about her having tools that should technically work, we haven't seen it happening at all in practice.

3) Falco does make sense as a character, it's just that his past incarnations have often skewed him away from what he was supposed to be. Losing dair hurts, and that's something i perhaps don't agree with, but if you look at how Falco is set up in Smash 4, he's basically meant to not really approach from a long distance. Short hop lasers are out, run speed is bad.

However, lasers in general prevent the opponent from trying to get too much distance from Falco. They force approaches, and are good for tacking on bits of damage if the opponent tries to break away. If they try to fight a projectile war, why look, there's a reflector that's ALSO A TRANSCENDENT PROJECTILE. Run speed is bad, but walk speed is great. So basically, Falco is designed to force approaches into close range where his neutral and footsies are well above average. Falco draws you into him, into the area where he excels. The results didn't quite live up to the design a few patches ago, but tiny, tiny changes have made such a difference. If his game plan wasn't clear before, I think it certainly is now, and the only thing preventing people from seeing that is "wah, where's my laser canceling, wah, where's my instant spike?"
You say the previous games distracted from "what he's supposed to be," and then you say that his laser forces approach. That's EXACTLY what he did in the previous games. Playing exactly how he was supposed to be played... distracted from how he's supposed to be played?

You don't seem like you've actually played as or against Falco. The hitstun on his lasers is almost non-existent. You can just run straight at him, and if Falco tries to fire more than two lasers from full screen, he's going to get punished. And I don't mean running at him and shielding the lasers, I mean you just run right at him and the lasers will not even remotely keep you out. You'll take 5-8% approaching Falco without shielding. It doesn't force an approach because there's no reason to be afraid of Falco firing lasers; they don't do much damage, and it's not like he has a charge shot. It also doesn't force approaches because it's incredibly easy to shield. Nothing about it forces anything. It's the easiest projectile in the entire game to deal with because each shot can easily be power-shielded, deals negligible shield damage, and has zero KO or follow-up potential.

They want Falco to be a close range character in a game where Mario, Luigi, Sheik, and even Kirby completely outclass him at that in every way. Falco's "game plan" isn't to shoot lasers and "force approaches," because that doesn't work. It's to walk instead of run, punish aerial approaches, keep people from getting too close with forward tilt and reflector, punish with grabs when he can, bait people into his forward smash. And those can work pretty well. The problem is, that's ALL he can do. He can't approach, and he can't force approaches. He needs people to simply walk or jump into his zone of their own volition. And if you think Falco players complain instead of figuring out the character, then you haven't actually been to the Falco boards or played against any Falco users. Get that strawman out of here, I'm tired of seeing it used every time someone tries to claim a character "isn't low tier, the people playing them just suck."
 

RedBeefBaron

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It depends on what made you think they were dysfunctional in the first place I suppose.
What exactly would you say makes Greninja functional that Robin lacks?
Mobility and freedom to fight on his terms in more match-ups, non linear play style and and versatile kit allows him to adapt to various matchups better by playing differently and means he doesn't get soft countered by as many characters, controls more space with less blind spots, better recovery for sure and probably better edgeguarding/offstage presence, better damage output and kill setups in advantage and better ways to escape in disadvantage (unless Robin has some epic combo breaker I'm forgetting).

Based on before the patch at least. I think Robin could be quite good now, but Greninja is gonna be incredible. His neutral is much better and his advantage is even more insane with the buffs.
 
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TTTTTsd

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I REALLY love what they did to Doc this patch. The new USmash allows for a LOT of options....he's still not a good character but he now has the best USmash of all the Mario characters and it's amazing <3.

Hope this kind of fortune keeps coming to our M.D. toting hero.
 

Firefoxx

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Sheik is another (surprising) winner of the patch by virtue of needles not being touched. Obviously the landscape keeps getting scarier, and that fair nerf will hurt, but she will likely maintain her hold on the meta
 

Superbat

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Were the changes to zelda impactful to her meta? The zelda boards seem content with the damage output and frame data buffs they've received during this patch, but its still unanimous that the changes they received were far from enough. Down tilt, a combo tool for zelda got a damage buff. (also combos better? cant confirm) She also got some endlag buffs on phantom slash and up tilt. (various fixes with jab as well. Don't understand what they are from the patch notes) What are people's thoughts of zelda now? She hasn't been discussed yet, so I want to hear opinions.
 
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⑨ball

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Mobility and freedom to fight on his terms in more match-ups, non linear play style and and versatile kit allows him to adapt to various matchups better by playing differently and get soft countered by less characters, controls more space and lacks as many blind spots, better recovery for sure and probably better edgeguarding/offstage presence, better damage output and kill setups in advantage and better ways to escape in disadvantage.

Based on before the patch at least. I think Robin could be quite good now though. But Greninja is gonna be insane.
It seems like what you listed were things (some probably arguable) that Greninja is better at rather than what makes him functional while Robin supposedly isn't. This is what I meant when I said these terms probably don't hold the same meaning among everyone that reads them. If we're talking function I'm assuming design with strengths and weaknesses in mind in relation to game mechanics and the cast.

A zoner that can not zone is a dysfunctional character. A high risk/reward character(not sure how you'd term characters like Ganon and Bowser) that doesn't get any reward(disproportionately low) is dysfunctional.

How is Robin exactly lacking in function?
 
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