Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Ikes]

Darn. Right when the Beep Boop and Hallehoo Hah were becoming legit.

don't forget Hoo Hahnado and PK Hoo Hah

Lucas, that forehead is outta control

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Robins holes in neutral def got smaller thanks to arcthunder buffs. But he remains high risk high reward overall if he wants to actually kill people. thats fine though. He DOES have mobility issues. That is obvious. But he is more properly rewarded for the gambles he takes. Is he top tier? No.

But the question we need to ask is...is he functional? Does his gameplan have merit and does playing him properly yield a reward?

I think the answer to that is now a resounding "YES!!!"

I'm going to have my doubts on Robin until I see it in play at tournament level. I know Ryo apparently threw in both a Robin and Lucina during his matches but didn't win using either of them from what I heard (could be wrong, didn't catch his Robin. His Lucina sure lost though).

On paper it certainly sounds like Robin has improved a bunch, and there is no denying that he has improved at least some what. I'm a bit sceptical of it being enough to pull him out of low tier tbqh.

 

[Vipermoon]

I don't believe he's high tier. The high tiers of this game are not on the same level as Marth. And while he got reduced landing lag and end lag on some of his moves, it is important to remember that most other characters received buffs. Everyone is getting better.

 

[A_Kae]

is a legit high tier character in most peoples minds now? he seems to have what it takes.

Marth is just below high tier in my opinion. Probably about 20-25 in tier position.

He's not quite on the same level as the high tiers, but not significantly lower.

 

[Firefoxx]

What exactly is Marth missing at this point? Cause he seems pretty damn high tier to me.

 

[Mr. Johan]

At the very least, Robin has without doubt escaped from the realm of "Useless Bottom 5", so that even if he's still Bottom 5, he still registers as a threat that can't be ignored.

And that's good enough for me.

 

[A_Kae]

What exactly is Marth missing at this point? Cause he seems pretty damn high tier to me.

More damage (particularly throws), better autocancels, and fixed hitboxes is what he needs in my opinion.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Meh, Marth feels very linear, and lacking in some .
Due to shield being so strong, in this game Marth's poor grab range & not so fearsome combos, he struggles a bit, as Shield Breaker is rather predictable.
I believe he's one of the better Low tiers, maybe i'm underrating him, maybe not.
I'd like to add that in this period of the metagame, even bottom tiers have a chance to shine, every character in this game, unlike other smash games, have more than 1 good move, they have some overall qualities.

 

[bc1910]

I don't know if he's high tier, but Marth is solid. He only loses like, 2 or 3 MUs I think. He's only getting more viable.

I think Robin will win the award for biggest tier jump in this patch. From bottom 5 to what, mid tier? I could see him moving up 10-15 places. The Checkmate kills insanely early and cannot be DI'd. Robin demands respect at all ranges now.

But yeah, in terms of actual viability, Greninja is the biggest winner. A character with sketchy viability was turned into a solid high tier. I feel very comfortable listing him in lower high alongside Yoshi, Pit and friends.

 

[LiteralGrill]

horrible timing considering there's no real consensus on any of the patch changes.

The beginning of the month waits for no one, if I don't put these up some random redditor will make some half baked poll and try to do it instead. So we'll see how it goes

 

[Vipermoon]

What exactly is Marth missing at this point? Cause he seems pretty damn high tier to me.

Exactly what A_Kae said but I want to stress the autocancels. In my opinion they were the biggest nerf and in my opinion: if Marth never received any buffs (throughout any patch) but got his Brawl/Melee ACs back he'd actually be high tier (whatever he'd be, it would be higher than he is now). Of course, receiving his previous ACs (Robin's current ACs) with the other buffs and the landing lags buffs would make him OP and it wouldn't be fun. He'll need better autocancels but they still have to be toned down.

He doesn't need a better combo game with his throws. His throws should do more damage though. 2% across the board would be nice. Besides, with customs, you still have Crescent Slash (which was buffed, lmao) which not only changes his grab game but general combos off of other hits (think of it like a Bouncing Fish).

Other than that, major hitbox improvements to fix blind spots/dead zones and you have solid high tier Marth.

 

[FullMoon]

Honestly the more we get patches the harder it gets to really tier these characters, because at this point everybody seems to be improving while top characters tend to get away with only a slap on the wrist (Diddy being the exception) when it comes to nerfs.

I'm quite enjoying how this game is developing so far. It's not super well balanced but considering the size of the cast there seems to have a pretty good number of good or at least viable characters.

 

[TriTails]

Honestly though. Low tiers are getting buffs all over the place.

I don't think I can imagine other Luigis' faces looking that our Greninja MU just got worse.

Luigi is falling apart.

 

[Vipermoon]

Meh, Marth feels very linear, and lacking in some .
Due to shield being so strong, in this game Marth's poor grab range & not so fearsome combos, he struggles a bit, as Shield Breaker is rather predictable.
I believe he's one of the better Low tiers, maybe i'm underrating him, maybe not.
I'd like to add that in this period of the metagame, even bottom tiers have a chance to shine, every character in this game, unlike other smash games, have more than 1 good move, they have some overall qualities.

His grab range is top tier (for non-tether grabs). Marth's grab range was nerfed in a game where almost every grab range was nerfed. I tested it against Brawl Marth and it isn't that different. Summary: his grab range wasn't targeted specifically/nerfed harder.

I don't know if he's high tier, but Marth is solid. He only loses like, 2 or 3 MUs I think. He's only getting more viable.

I wouldn't say 2 or 3 MUs but yeah you get the idea.

 

[Man Li Gi]

are we really calling down throw up air a forbidden technique?
well better than hoo hah i guess

Well if a character related to the original use of the forbidden technique, is seen using it......well the technique will become forbidden once more.

Using those two accursed words will make people remember the technique and it's usage. While not accurate, people will say they're the same and must be terminated. So for now, forbidden technique should suffice.

 

[Blobface]

Every D-Throw --> U-air should get it's own unique name honestly. More fun that way.

Also, I'm curious: why haven't people been using ledge trumps more? Even a top level they're basically nonexistent, and I understand that some characters like Diddy and Sheik don't have strong enough B-air's to get anything out of it, and that a roll can ignore it, but you need to buffer the roll.

There are several top tiers with strong B-air's (Luigi, Mario, ZSS, Sonic) that could get a lot out of trumping, and several players have shown they're willing to push the game to it's limit, so why has this gone untouched? Do you think people will pick it up eventually?

 

[Ffamran]

If Marth is around 20-25, that's pretty damn good. Even if he doesn't get used a lot, Marth being a good character does not and should not detract any of his merits. Not a lot of people used Wolf at a high level in Brawl and I think even in PM, but that doesn't stop Wolf from being a good character. We'll have tons of Sheik, Luigi, Captain Falcon, and Fox players, but there's only going to be a handful who are actually good. It'd be the same case for lesser used characters.

On another note, I'm beginning to hate all the stupid names for throw combos. It's just D-throw or U-throw to Uair, Fair, etc. Why the hell does it need a special name? You don't see people calling Fox's (old) jab repeat the "Gatling Gun" or Sheik's D-throw to Uair the "Too-Too Special". Nobody called Melee Fox's U-throw to Uair combo anything else... And I'm complaining about stupid stuff...

Honestly the more we get patches the harder it gets to really tier these characters, because at this point everybody seems to be improving while top characters tend to get away with only a slap on the wrist (Diddy being the exception) when it comes to nerfs.

I'm quite enjoying how this game is developing so far. It's not super well balanced but considering the size of the cast there seems to have a pretty good number of good or at least viable characters.

Why are we even tiering stuff? Seriously, just do what some players did for KoF XIII: http://www.mmcafe.com/tiermaker/kof...b68o6yaid39hig35ng48p02rml36-bkf-naitimu_mari.

A tier chart can just slap characters where they're "supposed" to be. With patching, characters drifting on and off wouldn't matter since guess what, Falco, Link, and Zelda aren't any stronger or majorly stronger while Captain Falcon isn't any weaker or majorly weaker. It doesn't need to be completely accurate, well, except for Sheik. Seriously, you could slap Luigi and Captain Falcon in the has faults, but high tier area and there you go, positions that make sense for them while the Pits are somewhere in the well-rounded, high to mid tier. Pac-Man being the theory machine he is could just go at high to mid tier area, but at has faults. I mean, characters like Wii Fit Trainer, Mega Man, and Villager could be in the well-rounded area of differing tiers while Little Mac, Roy, and Samus are in has faults. So? Well, that means relative to what the current meta believes along with evidence such as Little Mac having issues with certain stages or Roy being an all or nothing fighter, we know these characters are so and so. Aside from maybe even Sheik, we don't need to know who the hell is number 23 in the damned game. For all we know, that is possibly Marth, but does it matter? Does it matter when you can slap Marth onto the high tier area and be done with it?

Until further, further research that might take decades - come on, just look at Melee or any other older fighting game -, a tier chart might be more useful. Listing everyone would have to take a look into intricacies that are as with the several patches, would alter who MUs work which would alter where a character should be. Until patching is completely done, those intricacies are going to change ever so slightly or ever so significantly. Not to mention DLC characters which we don't know how many are left. For all we know, there could be only 2 or 6 more characters. How's Ryu doing? Good? Okay, let's slap him in high tier and there you go until patches are done and Ryu's last hopes and/or nightmares will never come to light, so we can finally dissect Ryu and expose his true position in the game.

 

[Luco]

Woah, @Emblem Lord I've never heard you sound so positive making a post. That was inspiring.

I voted on the poll, but I found it difficult and I'm tired so I didn't get a chance to check all of my ratings.

And Marth is freaking scary. I'm legitimately terrified. I put Marth in A- when I voted alongside like, the pits, megaman, peach, those kinds of characters.

The closer Marth gets to top tier the closer we get to Melee top tiers being top tier once again. Peach, Marth, Sheik, Fox, Captain Falcon... Tbh they just need to buff the hell out of jiggs and Falco and they're basically set.

Also, Ness' Dair buff was cute but it's still trash. The characteris basically just sitting pretty right now, although the Dair buff does signify to me that they're looking at the move and if/how to change it so hopefully they'll make it more usable soon and Ness will be complete. <3

Lucas still has his old problems but his damage reward and range (more like hitbox size) makes so much more sense now, which is like, really neat.

 

[zeldasmash]

What do you guys feel about Link? I feel he is an underrated character in the competitive metagame. Call me crazy, but i think he is better than Toon Link. He has a great grab game with dthrow as it allows mixups and has a semi "Hoo-Ha" with a grab that forces people to respect Link during mid-range. His projectile game is very effective, he has great range + kill power and is one of the best edge-guards in the game with a very effective anti-trump game.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Every D-Throw --> U-air should get it's own unique name honestly. More fun that way.

Also, I'm curious: why haven't people been using ledge trumps more? Even a top level they're basically nonexistent, and I understand that some characters like Diddy and Sheik don't have strong enough B-air's to get anything out of it, and that a roll can ignore it, but you need to buffer the roll.

There are several top tiers with strong B-air's (Luigi, Mario, ZSS, Sonic) that could get a lot out of trumping, and several players have shown they're willing to push the game to it's limit, so why has this gone untouched? Do you think people will pick it up eventually?

The 4 DK mains (use to be 5, but sadly one of us perished over starvation of attention) call it the DING DONG! Or forbidden technique.

 

[wedl!!]

with that preposition @ Blobface ive got some

: Flick o Dee Tail
: Somewhere Over The Rainbow
: Soccer Star
: You Reap What You Sow
/: The Heaven-Piercer

enough ****posting, serious discussion; would beat if he had better oos options (thoughts on this greninja mains? theoretically he's fast enough to ignore her walling but isn't the best at approaching. shurikens getting buffed makes this a lot better for him, before 1.10 he lost)

 

[Nu~]

If greninja had good OoS options, he would be stupid.

Kinda like if Pac-Man had captain falcon's grab

 

[FullMoon]

with that preposition @ Blobface ive got some

: Flick o Dee Tail
: Somewhere Over The Rainbow
: Soccer Star
: You Reap What You Sow
/: The Heaven-Piercer

enough ****posting, serious discussion; would beat if he had better oos options (thoughts on this greninja mains? theoretically he's fast enough to ignore her walling but isn't the best at approaching. shurikens getting buffed makes this a lot better for him, before 1.10 he lost)

I don't think before 1.1.0 he lost. I even talked about it with other Peach mains and they all said it was even. I've played some really good Peach players before too (Maleficent/Crow if you know of him) and our matches are pretty evenly matched overall even though he's a better player than me.

The big problem for Peach in this MU now is that Greninja doesn't really have to get close to her ever. He can fire shurikens at her to his heart content and she can't do a thing about it unless she manages to close in on him. He can fire two shurikens out of short hop and so he can hit Peach out of her float with them pretty easily. Veggies don't help much because Peach is vulnerable while picking them up until frame 41 and Greninja now throws the shuriken at frame 20 and even if she has a turnip on hand it's still one projectile with her while Greninja is likely attacking her with two at a time.

The burden of approaching is on Peach in this one. Greninja has no reason to ever approach her because he can just camp.

His bad OoS options means he can't punish Peach once she start pressuring him, but he can just run away with his superior mobility and start camping Peach again.

 

[PK Gaming]

At the very least, Robin has without doubt escaped from the realm of "Useless Bottom 5", so that even if he's still Bottom 5, he still registers as a threat that can't be ignored.

And that's good enough for me.

Amen brother

Honestly though. Low tiers are getting buffs all over the place.

I don't think I can imagine other Luigis' faces looking that our Greninja MU just got worse.

Luigi is falling apart.

No he isn't, calm down

 

[Ikes]

What do you guys feel about Link? I feel he is an underrated character in the competitive metagame. Call me crazy, but i think he is better than Toon Link. He has a great grab game with dthrow as it allows mixups and has a semi "Hoo-Ha" with a grab that forces people to respect Link during mid-range. His projectile game is very effective, he has great range + kill power and is one of the best edge-guards in the game with a very effective anti-trump game.

Toon Links projectiles and frame data are both considerably better than Links. His grab game is comparable in that he has IIRC the 4th best kill throw in the game, uthrow combos at low percents (into uair which is one of TL's most powerful aerials and can easily catch/chase air dodges), considerably better bombs (explode earlier and are thus harder to react to), boomerang is less niche and is great for combos/can make some moves safe (whiffed f-smash doesn't matter if your boomerang comes back and hits them suring your endlag). His utilt is kirby or mario tier in that it combos into so much of his toolset (usmash, uair, nair, bair even) and racks up crazy % not to mention it has more range and covers more area than either of those other two utilts

The only thing Link has over Toon link is raw power and a longer disjoint. He's also heavier, which makes him susceptible to more combos.

no, toon link is clearly superior to his grittier cousin. Having raw KO power is less important than having as many reliable ways to rack up damage as possible. Not to mention Toon Link's KO power is nothing to scoff at. The 5th strongest fsmash in the game, usmash is fairly exceptional, dsmash is good, fair is probably one of the earliest killing aerials in the game, uair kills very well and can chase air dodges, and his bombs set up into practically everything

 

[Sly_]

Toon Links projectiles and frame data are both considerably better than Links. His grab game is comparable in that he has IIRC the 4th best kill throw in the game, uthrow combos at low percents (into uair which is one of TL's most powerful aerials and can easily catch/chase air dodges), considerably better bombs (explode earlier and are thus harder to react to), boomerang is less niche and is great for combos/can make some moves safe (whiffed f-smash doesn't matter if your boomerang comes back and hits them suring your endlag). His utilt is kirby or mario tier in that it combos into so much of his toolset (usmash, uair, nair, bair even) and racks up crazy % not to mention it has more range and covers more area than either of those other two utilts

The only thing Link has over Toon link is raw power and a longer disjoint. He's also heavier, which makes him susceptible to more combos.

no, toon link is clearly superior to his grittier cousin. Having raw KO power is less important than having as many reliable ways to rack up damage as possible. Not to mention Toon Link's KO power is nothing to scoff at. The 5th strongest fsmash in the game, usmash is fairly exceptional, dsmash is good, fair is probably one of the earliest killing aerials in the game, uair kills very well and can chase air dodges, and his bombs set up into practically everything

can we see some sources on that?

 

[Vipermoon]

When I voted in the poll, I kept everything within A+ and C+ tier. There are no S tiers in this game very few C tiers.

Edit: it was bad design on their part to have things like D E F tiers in the poll.

 

[outfoxd]

The 4 DK mains (use to be 5, but sadly one of us perished over starvation of attention) call it the DING DONG! Or forbidden technique.

We have an Ike player that cleans up trumping to that monster of a bair. Lot of our guys seem to be trying it lately too.

 

[Ikes]

can we see some sources on that?

http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

compare toon link vs link

Toon link overall has better frame data (e.g. ftilt is frame 9-13 for TL and frame 15-19 for link)

Kill power is fairly variable but in game Toon Link clearly doesn't have too much trouble killing

some could have changed in recent patches but overall it reflects the current version fairly well

 

[Ghostbone]

Also, I'm curious: why haven't people been using ledge trumps more? Even a top level they're basically nonexistent, and I understand that some characters like Diddy and Sheik don't have strong enough B-air's to get anything out of it, and that a roll can ignore it, but you need to buffer the roll.

Ledge trumps definitely aren't underutilized at top level.

Nairo and the top Sheik mains all heavily use it.

You can buffer roll/jump/get-up attack btw.

 

[Speed Boost]

is a legit high tier character in most peoples minds now? he seems to have what it takes.

To me he is a solid character now, but he still doesn't have grab combos, except against fast fallers at low percent.

Without combos out of throws Shield is still very effective against him until he get in Up Throw range. All the characters that we consider high tier and above have combos. It gives them something to beat shield.

Let's look at the characters in the top and high tiers that have grab combos.

Sheik, Pikachu, Luigi, Mario, Rosalina, ZSS, Falcon, Diddy, Pits, ROB, MK, Lucario, Greninja, Charizard, Falco

Even characters that don't get a lot of true combos out of grabs like Ness, Sonic, Villager, Ike, and Fox have 50/50s and can combo off of other buttons.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8

compare toon link vs link

Toon link overall has better frame data (e.g. ftilt is frame 9-13 for TL and frame 15-19 for link)

Kill power is fairly variable but in game Toon Link clearly doesn't have too much trouble killing

some could have changed in recent patches but overall it reflects the current version fairly well

Toon link also has no range when people get in on him. His only spacin options are his projectiles and Zair.

 

[Ikes]

Toon link also has no range when people get in on him. His only spacin options are his projectiles and Zair.

but if a toon link is letting people consistently get in on him, the toon link player is simply playing him wrong

sure his disjoint is small but it's powerful and is more than enough to keep people off him

 

[Speed Boost]

When I voted in the poll, I kept everything within A+ and C+ tier. There are no S tiers in this game very few C tiers.

Edit: it was bad design on their part to have things like D E F tiers in the poll.

Yeah, I only went down to C+ as well. I put Sheik as S by her self and ZSS as S- with Diddy.

 

[FullMoon]

It amuses me that Greninja has tons of combos and yet he lacks the "traditional" D-Throw -> Up-Air combo and in fact couldn't combo out of D-Throw at all until this patch gave him D-Throw -> F-Air as a kill setup.

Honestly though. Low tiers are getting buffs all over the place.

I don't think I can imagine other Luigis' faces looking that our Greninja MU just got worse.

Luigi is falling apart.

I actually didn't think of that until you pointed that out. With the fireball nerf and shuriken buff Greninja can camp Luigi really hard now that I think about it.

Well it's good to know that our best relevant MU got even better if nothing else

 

[Asdioh]

How reliable is Greninja's Dthrow->Fair with DI? I take DI into account when considering throw combos, especially when the throws are slow or predictable enough that you should be able to DI then properly every time. Greninja's throws are fast enough, but Kirby's throws, besides maybe Bthrow, are all very long animations in comparison to most throws, so you should have proper DI every time. That's why I don't even consider Fthrow to be a combo at high/kill percents, even with Upper Cutter, because DI away sends them too far.
Then there's Luigi's Dthrow->Cyclone, which gives enough hitstun for him to follow regardless of DI

 

[Nu~]

To me he is a solid character now, but he still doesn't have grab combos, except against fast fallers at low percent.

Without combos out of throws Shield is still very effective against him until he get in Up Throw range. All the characters that we consider high tier and above have combos. It gives them something to beat shield.

Let's look at the characters in the top and high tiers that have grab combos.

Sheik, Pikachu, Luigi, Mario, Rosalina, ZSS, Falcon, Diddy, Pits, ROB, MK, Lucario

Even characters that don't get a lot of true combos out of grabs like Ness, Sonic, Villager, and Fox have 50/50s and can combo off of other buttons.

Put Pac-Man in there who can kill between 30 to 50% after a down throw.
If you miss the tech: F-Airx3 -> Galxian kill combo.

But Pac-Man getting consistent grabs is lol

 

[LancerStaff]

It's weird to compare them because they're very different characters, but mobility is the main thing. His mobility is the probably the only thing that stopped him from falling to low tier.

But now, the buffed shurikens allow him to force approaches and pressure from afar extremely well. At 45 total frames they are among the fastest projectiles in the game from start to end, the only one that comes to mind as being faster is one shot from Fox's Blaster (even Sheik shooting one needle takes 47 total frames). Greninja, unlike Robin, can use his mobility to pressure in tandem with his good projectile. It gives him a lot of opportunities to get hits. Dthrow actually being good now is icing on the cake.

He pressures you from afar with throwing stars, making you uneasy because you never know when he's going to strike. And when he does, he strikes hard and fast.

In short, he finally plays like a Ninja.

Pit's arrows had a faf of 46 in the air previously. They've lost a frame at least... Most likely more.

...Dang. Pit has one of the fastest (or fastest) projectiles now. And it does everything but KO and travels across 97% of FD with no charge. That's kinda crazy.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Find it rather intriguing how nearly every character besides Falco and Samus got buffs to their projectiles despite the latter two needing it the most.

 

[David Viran]

The fact that Samus has such a ****ty tether grab (tied for worst along with ZSS) should justify her having amazing throws (including a kill throw)

Zss's grab is def better. Same start up, zss has one more active frame, and has less end lag. Their dash grabs end lag are pretty close but zss gets the most boost out of her dash grab in the game. Yes, even more than falcon.