Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[FullMoon]

How reliable is Greninja's Dthrow->Fair with DI? I take DI into account when considering throw combos, especially when the throws are slow or predictable enough that you should be able to DI then properly every time. Greninja's throws are fast enough, but Kirby's throws, besides maybe Bthrow, are all very long animations in comparison to most throws, so you should have proper DI every time. That's why I don't even consider Fthrow to be a combo at high/kill percents, even with Upper Cutter, because DI away sends them too far.
Then there's Luigi's Dthrow->Cyclone, which gives enough hitstun for him to follow regardless of DI

I can't say for certain, haven't gotten a chance to do much with it yet.

I did manage to land it twice today when I actually remember it existed but I'm pretty sure I wasn't in the true combo % range yet and my opponents just fell for it because they probably didn't know it was a thing lol

There's one thing about it though.

The best way to DI Greninja's Up-Throw so you don't get killed by it is towards him (Mario lives very slightly longer, as in, 4% longer if he DIs towards him, any other direction gets him killed at 164% with no rage, Bowser survives 8% longer in comparison)

The best way to DI Greninja's D-Throw so you don't get hit by F-Air is away from him.

You said it yourself that Greninja's throws also have a fast animation and thanks to D-Throw -> F-Air being a true combo close to %s where Up-Throw start killing and rage makes telling when it kills all the harder. Greninja basically forces you to guess which throw he's going to use unless you react pretty quickly to it.

You don't get killed earlier if you DI away from Greninja if he uses Up-Throw, so that's probably the most optimal choice, but hey, if you can survive just one more Up-Throw if you DI towards him, you probably will want to do it, especially if it's your last stock. Then he D-Throws instead and you get hit by F-Air and dies.

That could be a pretty mean mix-up I think.

 

[momochuu]

People always say Greninja beats Luigi, why is that? I've always found that matchup extremely annoying.

 

[Smog Frog]

its probably shurikens making it a pain in the ass to approach and having circles moved around you.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Maybe Shuriken is able to keep Luigi at bay?
I definitely can see Bair beating Luigi's approaches.


Alsoalso, is the Shadow Sneak combo breaker still present?

 

[TriTails]

I actually didn't think of that until you pointed that out. With the fireball nerf and shuriken buff Greninja can camp Luigi really hard now that I think about it.

Well it's good to know that our best relevant MU got even better if nothing else

Maybe I was exaggerating. I just remembered Greninja's Shurikens can be shorthopped.

I finally adaptated to the Fireball end lag. Not as bad as I think I guess. And I barely noticed Shurikens' better startup either.

I suppose it didn't really got worse. All that crying over nothing .

I've yet to see the ultilization of uncharged Shurikens tho... You have a 3DS? Maybe we can spar sometime.

its probably shurikens making it a pain in the *** to approach and having circles moved around you.

Never really get the moving around in circles. If you want to run circles around me then eat a grab or U-smash lol.

 

[FullMoon]

Alsoalso, is the Shadow Sneak combo breaker still present?

Shadow Sneak Hitstun Cancel is still in, yes.

Maybe I was exaggerating. I just remembered Greninja's Shurikens can be shorthopped.

I finally adaptated to the Fireball end lag. Not as bad as I think I guess. And I barely noticed Shurikens' better startup either.

I suppose it didn't really got worse. All that crying over nothing .

I've yet to see the ultilization of uncharged Shurikens tho... You have a 3DS? Maybe we can spar sometime.

I have the 3DS version, yeah. I'm from Brazil though so if we play we'll probably get some fun lag.

 

[Superbat]

Post I made a few pages back, but no one replied

Were the changes to zelda impactful to her meta? The zelda boards seem content with the damage output and frame data buffs they've received during this patch, but its still unanimous that the changes they received were far from enough. Down tilt, a combo tool for zelda got a damage buff. (also combos better? cant confirm) She also got some end lag buffs on phantom slash and up tilt. (various fixes with jab as well. Don't understand what they are from the patch notes) What are people's thoughts of zelda now? She hasn't been discussed yet, so I want to hear opinions.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

People always say Greninja beats Luigi, why is that? I've always found that matchup extremely annoying.

Shurikens are better at range than fireball, jab and d tilt beat Luigis grab, up b messes with his recovery, fair disjoint wins air to air, and while you shouldn't be literally running circles around him you should ban small stages, force an approach and play keep away with your mobility.

Easier said than done, however. Things go badly against Luigi very quickly, especially if you can't easily break combos.

 

[TriTails]

I'm from Indonesia (and I'm 99% sure there's only like 2 or 3 Indonesian players beside me, if there's ANY AT. ALL.), so does that make any differences? I recall having great connections against Japanese and usually slightly worse against Americans (Most of the time, they're smooth though).

 

[FullMoon]

Well I share my connection with like, 3 other people at my house so that might make the connection be more unstable. Unless it's at night at which point the connection is all mine.

I mean, I'm all up for it if you are. I'm not one to refuse good MU experience.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Post I made a few pages back, but no one replied

I earlier today got a Dthrow>Nair>Utilt>Utilt>Nair>Ftilt combo with her. 0-50%. One of her problems was racking up damage, so these changes re significant, a lot.

And now that Phantom does not have a point-blank blindspot, it's a less crappy spacing/camping tool.

So, with a newly gained ability to combo, being able to escape pressure a little better, and opponents now having to respect her CQC game, I'd say these buffs really catapulted her from worst character to almost not mediocre.

 

[Antonykun]

It's time to talk about Chakram
Chakram is a legit ridiculous move now and no this isn't just the Chakram infinite

Fast Chakram has endlag similar to SoL but is definitely some frames slower on start up. Basically this move is link's boomerang a multi directional projectile that helps to cover huge amounts of space and synchs up really nicely with SoL as far as a projectile game goes. Not only that but just like Link's boomerang Fast Chakram works as an edgeguarding tool hitting opponents offstage without Swordfighter having to leave the stage.

Now for the elephant in the room, Slow Chakram. First of all Slow Chakram is a hitconfirm into anything (even another Slow Chakram but you already knew that) and is thus a kill move 8 percent less than whenever Up-smash/F-smash kills here are some basic combos from Slow Chakram:

so now we know that Chakram is now a hitconfirm into anything (k maybe not everything)
noteworthy combos
Chakram (xN)
-Up Smash (for Killing/Damage and Up air set up)
-Grab -> Down Throw -> Up Air (Max Damage)
-Fsmash/Hero's Spin -> (to set up an edgeguard or kill if near the ledge)
-(if close to the ledge) D-air -> DI away from ledge -> footstool (if done perfectly it can instakill DK and probably a few others at 0%)
-SoL (yes it works, seriously though if you can land an SoL you can do another rep of Chakram or F-smash)

but another important thing about Slow Chakram is that it can be done in the air angled down to be used like a landing option one that can lead to massive damage/the stock

 

[Luigi player]

People always say Greninja beats Luigi, why is that? I've always found that matchup extremely annoying.

What I do know is that Amsa beat both Boss and J.Miller at Apex so that's one point in that favor I guess.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is Chakram un-SDI-able?

 

[Antonykun]

Is Chakram un-SDI-able?

I've been getting reports that its not but none of my irl friends want to be near me to test that so for now I'm just going to assume it is

 

[san.]

They begin to slide far when hit with chakram at higher %. I don't think it's really reliable unless it starts from very low % and stales.

The way you want to use slow chakram (anti-air), it'll be difficult to get a followup hit.

 

[Antonykun]

The way you want to use slow chakram (anti-air), it'll be difficult to get a followup hit.

primairly because aerial opponents only get hit with one 3% hitbox
oh yeah San do you know how effective slow chakram is as a ledgetrap? I'm not too sure myself

 

[san.]

primairly because aerial opponents only get hit with one 3% hitbox
oh yeah San do you know how effective slow chakram is as a ledgetrap? I'm not too sure myself

Good. You can combo into aerials or even just gimp with the chakram. Low enough lag to use offstage as well.

 

[Antonykun]

Really good. You can combo into aerials or even just gimp with the chakram. Low enough lag to use offstage as well.

which means characters with poor vertical recoveries like DK can die at anytime simply because they chose the wrong get up option against Chkram (D-air into foot stool)

 

[Vipermoon]

Shadow Sneak Hitstun Cancel is still in, yes.

Is it actually cancelling hitstun or is it just one of those frame 1 invincibles? If it's the former it needs to be removed.

 

[san.]

which means characters with poor vertical recoveries like DK can die at anytime simply because they chose the wrong get up option against Chkram (D-air into foot stool)

I'll have to look into that more. I would say not guaranteed until tested.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Is it actually cancelling hitstun or is it just one of those frame 1 invincibles? If it's the former it needs to be removed.

The former, definitely. It breaks out of Shuttle Loop's first hit and strike back before the second one

 

[Mr. Johan]

Well at least Shadow Sneak hitstun canceling makes thematic sense, giving the sense that you attacked the shadow and now you have to deal with the real thing. Pretty ninja-y vibe. :V

 

[FullMoon]

I'm always expecting it to go away in a patch but it just never does lol.

They removed pretty much all Shadow Sneak techniques except the most useful one for some reason. To the point some people started thinking it's intentional.

 

[Yonder]

This last patch was great overall considering it helped all the low tiers out quite a bit [Except Samus. Sakurai probably thinks she's still OP]. Robin and WFT, two characters who needed buffs got great ones. Luigi lost a bit of approach power in exchange for more reliable kill power, probably will move him down a bit though but still a high tier [Well, Zero thinks he's broken lol]. Sheik could have used some more endlag on her needles if Luigi got 3 frames oe endlag, that would have been fair. She survives again. But it was a smart decision to buff low tiers, the gap is getting closer and closer to almost all characters being viable. Only character I feel who deserved buffs that got the short end of the stick a bit was Mewtwo. A stronger D smash and a more damaging throw were nice [especially the throw, now all his throws sans D throw are amazing] but his problems are still not mitigated. They are never changing his weight so I think his throws should be cranked up as much as possible along with his whole moveset in speed and power. Bair and uair should kill much earlier, for instance. But yeah, like, who's the worst now? Even Mii swordfighter is apparently amazing now [whether that's due to the infinite only idk] and Zelda has a better Phantom/some other stuff. I don't think there are any bad characters in the game as of right now. Some are better than others, but I think virtually everyone can be used in competitive play at this point for the most part. A big step up from the 5 characters in Melee...that game has no patches though so I digress.

 

[Kofu]

When I tried out the Miis' specials shortly after the game came out, I thought slow Charkam was a really good trapping/hitconfirming projectile, but it was probably slightly too laggy. Now it's basically how I thought it should be, being able to lead into all sorts of things (though I don't think that being able to chain into itself is a good thing).

Swordfighter's looking pretty legit now.

 

[⑨ball]

I'm always expecting it to go away in a patch but it just never does lol.

They removed pretty much all Shadow Sneak techniques except the most useful one for some reason. To the point some people started thinking it's intentional.

Taunt canceling>>>>>>>>>>>>>hitstun canceling



edit:

Chrom confirmed best swordsman after all this wait?

 

[FullMoon]

Taunt canceling>>>>>>>>>>>>>hitstun canceling



edit:

Chrom confirmed best swordsman after all this wait?

Oh yeah I forgot he can still do that.

Man if someone got a kill with that in a tournament it would be so hilarious.

 

[TriTails]

What I do know is that Amsa beat both Boss and J.Miller at Apex so that's one point in that favor I guess.

Probably MU inexperience. That time was when people think Greninja was a bad low tier. And pretty sure almost nobody used him.

But then aMSa whipped out the frog and then... yeah.

 

[⑨ball]

Oh yeah I forgot he can still do that.

Man if someone got a kill with that in a tournament it would be so hilarious.

For Glory would see frogs like the plague the next day for sure. I remember when "Mappy Accident" hit front page and my brother said he'd been doing Pac-Man dittos all day.

I never got to try 2-Pac.
u_u

 

[Vipermoon]

You know what? It's a lie, I don't believe him. Samus was never the best. He didn't mean FFAs nor was Samus nerfed before release. He simply saw the characters the players didn't choose and happened to pick Samus out of them. Telling us she was the best was him trying to convince us that the game will be balanced and that you shouldn't judge a character by its cover.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I really can't imagine a Samus that keeps her physics/playstyle that could ever be seen as that good. I guess Charge Shot is nice in FFAs, though.

 

[Nu~]

So RIBB_Zee is pretty much calling Villager unviable on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/ribb_zee/status/627697691569582080

Thoughts?

 

[ILOVESMASH]

So RIBB_Zee is pretty much calling Villager unviable on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/ribb_zee/status/627697691569582080

Thoughts?

It says the page doesn't exist.

 

[Nu~]

It says the page doesn't exist.

Try again

Edit:
https://mobile.twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627704707771969536

Here's another one

 

[C0rvus]

Villager always struck me as a strong counterpick character. His viability lies in how bad his bad MUs are. Can't imagine Sheik, Fox, Sonic, Rosalina are very good, but are any of them THAT bad? If anything, he makes a good secondary. He shuts down characters like Luigi and Dedede who have trouble getting in, or slow characters who can't catch up and make him stop pelting them with stuff. Idk Villager never seemed that strong, but his design is strong for reasons that are uncommon in this meta. Villager doesn't have a good grab or followups that matter, or any powerful tools that break neutral (barring customs I guess), or a ton of combos. Just a simple spacing character with average stats and pretty good neutral.

Solo viable? Proaably not, but that isn't exactly damning. He still exists as a counterpick to a few relevant characters, and is pretty solid on his own.

 

[TriTails]

So RIBB_Zee is pretty much calling Villager unviable on Twitter.

https://twitter.com/ribb_zee/status/627697691569582080

Thoughts?

We need clarifications on 'misconceptions' and 'flaws' tho...

BTW. Is Fox's jab lock REALLY is gone?
https://mobile.twitter.com/LarryLurr/status/627714454927446016

 

[Nu~]

We need clarifications on 'misconceptions' and 'flaws' tho...

BTW. Is Fox's jab lock REALLY is gone?
https://mobile.twitter.com/LarryLurr/status/627714454927446016

He has 11 of them on his front page lol

I don't agree with all of them, but I don't main villager either so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

*Summons @ Antonykun *

 

[ぱみゅ]

I sometimes wonder why people tend to rate Villager as a top 10ish character. Specially on non-custom lists.

 

[Man Li Gi]

The jab infinite (jab lock is something different) is gone at higher percent as it knocks them away too far. At low percents, it still connects. Still sade on shield.