Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Emblem Lord]

lolol

WHAT?!?!?!

This match will NEVER happen in tournament.

I would be happen to be proven wrong though.

Actually it might now that both chars are considered solid picks.

 

[bc1910]

lolol

WHAT?!?!?!

This match will NEVER happen in tournament.

I know, more's the pity. Was talking about myself and the Marth players I play with, really.

I do think players will drag their feet when it comes to straying from the top ~10 because of buffs but yeah, they are both solid, there's more chance of seeing this MU in tournament than before I guess.

 

[Ikes]

yooo are there too many toon links here to have a decent toon link discussion? I wanna see some matchup discussion for him.

I think past discussion has overall mostly agreed that he goes 60:40 against luigi TL favor, but what about Mario, Falcon, Sonic, and Ness?

I think the way the MU works against Mario is a little bit similar to Luigi, since TL out-projectiles Mario, although clearly mario doesn't rely much on projectiles so much like his brother. His ability to get in is a bit better than Luigi's but he's plaged by unreliable forward facing options (fair is too slow, fsmash is fairly slow and somewhat punishable, ftilt is decent but lacks good range, same with dtilt) but Bair is just a good move against anyone, clearly.

I think Mario has less trouble with our projectiles than Luigi does due to his better ability to get around them, but he can stil lfall prey to the same setups Luigi can due to having similar weight to him.

Due to Toon Link being on the lighter end of middleweight, he's less susceptible to Mario's autocombos than most, especially due to his fairly slow fall speed. He can also interrupt a lot of the combos with nair, bair, and situationally uair, so Mario's combo game is a little bit more difficult to use.

Toon Link probably has an easier time killing in this MU, but Mario I think has an easier time getting TL's % higher

Honestly I'd label this a 50:50 MU, any thoughts?

Falcon seems liek it could be in Tink's favor, falcon is super susceptiblt to utilt strings which go into most of Tink's aerials depending on DI (and pretty much always uair), he dies a little bit later from bthrow but itll still kill about 15 or so % later than usual which isnt horrible, and fair is always there for killing offstage. falcon out-damages us in neutral and can combo us just like anyone but I feel he has a hard time getting past TL's projectiles in neutral, so i feel Tink takes neutral a lot easier in this MU.

60:40 Tink? maybe 55:45 due to Falcon's raw KO power and good frame data alongside his phenomenal grab game, but TL puts Falcon in the disadvantaged state too easily to call it even.

Sonic is probably 55:45 Sonic's favor, but he has a lot to watch out for here due to a lot of his approach options being caught by bombs/boomerangs and whatnot, Sonic has to play a lot lamer I think but since TL has a little trouble punishing lame play due to his poor grab, i think this is where i goes slightly towards sonic. Certainly not unwinnable but a bit rough. Toon Link just needs to try and out-lame sonic and hope to get some reward off bombs/boomerangs and maybe net a KO throw. Honestly haven't played this MU enough to know where it goes so this is mostly speculation and conjecture.

probably 55:45 or 60:40 Sonic's favor

Ness I feel has a lot more trouble getting his grab confirms off on Toon Link due to Tink's overall better projectile and zoning game, not to mention he dies early to Tink's kill setups. This MU is basically "battle of the back throw" where both players are pretty much going to rack up % and go for bthrow at high %s. but since Ness has a harder time here getting the grab, I'm gonna guess it's even, especially considering the dash grab buff TL got. Toon Link might actually have an easier time gettign grabs here than Ness, bombs are basically Luigi's fireballs in their ability to almost confirm grabs, though not to the same extent, since opponents can still attempt to catch bombs. but if they're forced to shield, you can usually get a grab off of it. same goes for boomerangs in some situations depending on whether or not your opponent decides to shield it, but if they shield it or get hit, it's still a grab. certainly not as guaranted as Luigi's fireballs but it's still something.

50:50 vs Ness? I can see it. Could potentially be 55:45 either way but I think this MU is incredibly reliant on who takes the neutral, because both get hit hart in disadvantage.

 

[Nobie]

Except quite a few characters already have frame traps built into jabs that also combo. Samus has a jab that doesn't combo and is a mediocre frame trap. It's a terrible move. Aside from that, it's not hard to make Samus sound like a good character. Except she isn't. Her neutral air is garbage. She's floaty, she has a terrible roll, and has no defense in the air other than down B and try to float away. She's supposed to be able to control space, but her jab and neutral air are both garbage, her forward tilt is average to below average, her projectiles are overall much more linear than Link's. In addition to her wonky hitboxes, she just doesn't really work. No matter how much you try to theorize about her having tools that should technically work, we haven't seen it happening at all in practice.

I wasn't saying that Samus is without flaws, nor that she's some incredible character, but that the strengths that she does have are often ignored in the rain of complaints.

You say the previous games distracted from "what he's supposed to be," and then you say that his laser forces approach. That's EXACTLY what he did in the previous games. Playing exactly how he was supposed to be played... distracted from how he's supposed to be played?

You don't seem like you've actually played as or against Falco. The hitstun on his lasers is almost non-existent. You can just run straight at him, and if Falco tries to fire more than two lasers from full screen, he's going to get punished. And I don't mean running at him and shielding the lasers, I mean you just run right at him and the lasers will not even remotely keep you out. You'll take 5-8% approaching Falco without shielding. It doesn't force an approach because there's no reason to be afraid of Falco firing lasers; they don't do much damage, and it's not like he has a charge shot. It also doesn't force approaches because it's incredibly easy to shield. Nothing about it forces anything. It's the easiest projectile in the entire game to deal with because each shot can easily be power-shielded, deals negligible shield damage, and has zero KO or follow-up potential.

They want Falco to be a close range character in a game where Mario, Luigi, Sheik, and even Kirby completely outclass him at that in every way. Falco's "game plan" isn't to shoot lasers and "force approaches," because that doesn't work. It's to walk instead of run, punish aerial approaches, keep people from getting too close with forward tilt and reflector, punish with grabs when he can, bait people into his forward smash. And those can work pretty well. The problem is, that's ALL he can do. He can't approach, and he can't force approaches. He needs people to simply walk or jump into his zone of their own volition. And if you think Falco players complain instead of figuring out the character, then you haven't actually been to the Falco boards or played against any Falco users. Get that strawman out of here, I'm tired of seeing it used every time someone tries to claim a character "isn't low tier, the people playing them just suck."

I've well aware of both the lack of hit stun on Falco's lasers and the long recovery on it. I've experienced the fact that throwing out more than one laser at a time is basically asking for trouble because if you do that, the opponent is probably going to be in your face making Falco stew.

When I said that the laser is meant to force approaches but doesn't allow Falco to approach, I was referring to both the fact that the lack of short hop laser keeps Falco from being able to approach using the laser, but also prevents Falco from being able to dominate with laser, yet at the end of the day it's still 3%. Basically, you're supposed to use laser one shot at a time, ideally on opponents who are trying to get away from your combos and up-close game, or to hit them from afar if they feel like keeping their distance. Maybe "force approaches" was the wrong term to use, because I didn't mean that it's either so powerful or such a threat that the opponent needs to feel like they need to fight Falco up close. Instead let's go with "discourages staying away." It says, "If you really want to stay that far, or if you really want to drift away from me, here's 3%," and I know that 3% isn't that much, but I think again it's supposed to be a strong suggestion to the opponent to come closer, and not "come closer OR ELSE."

I wouldn't be surprised if Falco's up-close game is worse than the characters you mentioned, and in fact I'm going to just say he does for the sake of argument (and because it makes sense), but Falco's CQC out-ranges Mario, Luigi, and Kirby. His long limbs and having that level of footsies, as well as numerous quick kill moves keeps him in the running, I think. I think Kirby SHOULD have incredible close-range skills because of how hard of a time he has approaching. Sheik is Sheik, and losing to Sheik up-close is basically like losing to Mt. Everest in a "being a mountain" competition.

Last thing: I was not trying to insult Falco players themselves. I know how much time you guys put into using the character, and how much you've worked to unlock everything he has to offer in this game. i know that he was and still is a very "honest" character, and in a game where the jank isn't that high but still here and there, he's had a tough time especially compared to the highest of high tiers. My words were directed more at the people who look at Falco, see he's lacking the extremely powerful techniques of the older games, and walk away because "That ain't Falco," and assume that he has no redeeming qualities. As for @Ffamran, we just know that he loves to complain about Falco.

 

[muddykips]

Could you elaborate on Yoshi? I play at lot of friendlies against a really good Yoshi main here and it feels pretty hard on Marth even with the advice I get and the adapting.

disjoints give yoshi a hard time. for one thing, yoshis in the air a lot, but doesnt have any disjoints of his own, so it's hard to deal with a character that does (sword characters are the main culprits).

yoshis grab also sucks (it's slow, laggy, and has no real followups) so even if he manages to shield an attack, his best punish would be a nair... and then he'd be in the air again, which brings him back to the first issue.

and against opponents that can use their disjoints really well, even yoshis eggs can lose their effectiveness.

 

[Shaya]

@ Vipermoon I don't think Marth beats Greninja. Prepatch (before shuriken buff but after Ftilt buff), EL visited our MU thread and said he thought Marth vs Greninja was even, giving some reasoning, and I think he was right. If it was even before, with Greninja getting more meaningful buffs than Marth in this patch, I don't think it would be worse than even now.

Marth/Lucina probably have top 5 shad games. Yoshi is the only other character I'm aware of with it developed thus far.
The sh AD thing is mostly the choice Marth can take to a response to Greninja's actions. Fair will still beat ftilt (and outranges it). But yeah, it isn't as bad as it used to be, but I still maintain that Marth probably wins a little.
I think Marth's buffs overall are pretty significant though. Shuriken/dthrow buff is great and I'm sure the frogs love it. But landing fair into things, jesus.

Re: Yoshi
I know Yoshi's hate hearing "Sky", but that's how and where things happened ("Marth's Up Throw is so ****ing ****ed you fraud ass ****"; the response of every character without a real grab or grab kill set ups ever). The way I see this match up seems to contrast a lot with how most other Marth players who I'm aware of having difficulties with it. I think it's a matter of people not knowing how Yoshi's animations work/travel and where his hitboxes are. Everything I see Marth lose against reminds me of seeing someone play against Brawl snake for the first time ("how was I meant to know the platform in and around his foot was DEATH?"), early Brawl we thought Snake was one of our hardest match ups (35:65) and by mid to late meta it was our advantage. Yoshi's disjoints are little and far between but his animations are superb (fast and retractile), whenever I see Marth hit Yoshi it's a sour spot. And @ Vipermoon I would not be surprised if you suffer a similar "strange anomaly" where you're apparently never actually spacing well against the character. Yoshi fair is a great example; the range on that thing is like 2 sword lengths and comes from above with a huge hitbox, MARTH SHOULD NOT GIVE A **** ABOUT THIS though. If I could count the number of times I've tipper fsmashed Yoshi's fair because I know where that head is going to be, it would be about two, because no Yoshi will play so disrespectfully once they know you know.

 

[TriTails]

possibly loses to Luigi

-1: *

Uhhhhhhhhhh... How does Marth loses to Luigi?

Maybe not in Marth's favor but to me it's evenish IMO.

 

[Shaya]

I would've argued it worse than any other match up other than maybe ZSS at some point (as did any other well-off tournament attending Marth I was aware of).
Marth had no answer to Luigi's shield. Marth had no answers to the grab follow ups (he still gets absurdly massacred). Frankly he just had no answers to him at all at some point.

I still wouldn't want to play that match up now over ZSS (I'll probably try soonish though). MOVES WITH DAMAGE make Luigi's life hard. Marth doesn't do damage. Hence Luigi wrecked him.
I'm sure even current forward air is dash grab fodder.

In Brawl I'd jab or forward air fireballs while approaching. Both of those things get Marth killed in this game, and SHAD is what stops him getting destroyed by the projectile zoners to compensate, but fireballs >>>>>>>> SHAD.
And he still doesn't really have an approach in the match up now, the fireball nerf may make this match up tolerable for approaching, although I currently feel little has changed. Now with all the buffs, a retreating Marth while Luigi approaches (why would he ever now though?) isn't free dash grabs for 30% or more each time. I don't see what suddenly allows him to win though.

And maybe this is a bit to why I don't feel comfortable saying Marth is high tier. So much of the cast could disrespect him and destroy him for it early on in this game's life time. Now he's been buffed he's suddenly a character worth respecting, opponent's doing so should still give Marth headaches.

This thread underrates Luigi a lot because of you TriTails. The character is still Brawl Dedede level in his [non-infinite] polarizing match ups with even less weaknesses than Brawl Dedede had.

 

[bc1910]

Marth/Lucina probably have top 5 shad games. Yoshi is the only other character I'm aware of with it developed thus far.
The sh AD thing is mostly the choice Marth can take to a response to Greninja's actions. Fair will still beat ftilt (and outranges it). But yeah, it isn't as bad as it used to be, but I still maintain that Marth probably wins a little.
I think Marth's buffs overall are pretty significant though. Shuriken/dthrow buff is great and I'm sure the frogs love it. But landing fair into things, jesus.

Marcina, Yoshi and Mario come to mind for me. All of them have nicely developed SHADing games. Ftilt makes things so much more bearable though.

Yeah, I was about to say the shuriken buff is especially significant because it gives us back something we had before, but actually the Marth Fair landing lag buff is similar. It gives you guys back some stuff you had in Brawl. Great buffs all around, really.

 

[Vipermoon]

Thanks for the Yoshi input. I can see eye to eye now.

Also, Jigglypuff has a great SHAD and DJAD game.

With Marth, SHAD is one of my most used approaches.

 

[Yoshi Kirishima]

Sorry but this isn't too accurate. My opinions on your stuff using my theory/experience/spectating:

Version 1.1.0. Format is beats, possibly beats, even, possibly even, possibly loses to, and loses to.

-2s. I don't think Sheik is in her separate section.

-1s. Marth beats Falcon (curious, why does everyone who doesn't use Marth say Falcon wins?) and Greninja, and possibly beats Villager. Marth is possibly even with Diddy.

+0s. Marth beats DHD, Falco, Ganon, Little Mac, Ness, Peach, Ryu and possibly beats Pit, Pacman, and Rosalina. Marth loses to DDD, Olimar, Pikachu, Sonic, and possibly loses to Luigi, MK, and Shulk.

+1s. Marth is possibly even with Kirby. Barely beats Lucina but yes, he does.

??s. Marth beats Bowser, Jigglypuff, Lucas, WFT, and possibly beats Palutena. Marth is even with Bowser Jr. Marth possibly loses to Charizard, DK, and Toon but could definitely be even with those three as well.

This is non-customs so while I have no experience against Miis (or spectating Marth vs Mii) IMO they all suck in non-customs so Marth probably wins.

Marth is +1 vs rosa (based on friendlies with nom and many MI pr players agreed on this) and palu (tons of ground and air space coverage with disjointed hitboxes, and range that allows him to wall, poke, and rush down). Agree with pretty much everything else. Sheik and Diddy may be -1 or 0.

 

[Emblem Lord]

oh yah Rosa. Marth prolly makes sweet love to her now.

Luma just watches the action after Marth gives it to her. Little thing can only handle like 2 swings of the hero-kings MIGHTY BLADE OF JUSTICE!!!

*wink wink

know what im sayin!?!?!?

 

[TriTails]

know what im sayin!?!?!?

I know you're trying to turn Fire Emblem into Star Wars .

 

[adom4]

oh yah Rosa. Marth prolly makes sweet love to her now.

Luma just watches the action after Marth gives it to her. Little thing can only handle like 2 swings of the hero-kings MIGHTY BLADE OF JUSTICE!!!

*wink wink

know what im sayin!?!?!?

How does Marth beat Rosa?
Not doubting you just curious.

 

[Shaya]

How does Marth beat Rosa?
Not doubting you just curious.

Marth kills Luma in two hits (from knocking it off stage, not damage wise)
Marth out ranges/disjoints most of Luma and Rosalina's attacks.
Rosalina is very tall, making her vulnerable to aerial pressure more so than most other characters.
Marth hitting things isn't fun for people around them, in singles it's usually not relevant. Hitting Luma with a tipper suddenly increases it's range drastically and makes the hitbox last for an extra 10 odd frames and Rosalina is fluffy-weight. Rosalina can punish most characters attempts on Luma's life (heck most characters don't ignore Rosalina like Marth does just to kill Luma), but in this match up it's not a big factor and is more often a liability.

Rosalina's weaknesses involve landing and recovering.
Marth's been the same capabilities since Brawl in the latter and wasn't too shabby in the former, and it's now only getting better.

I don't know about the match up at top level, where someone like Dabuz can manage Luma significantly better than most and probably is aware of the right things to respect and worry about. But otherwise? it's really simple...
"SPACE ATTACKS ON LUMA. ROSA CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT. LUMA DIES, KILL ROSA."

 

[Vipermoon]

Yeah Rosetta...

Luma is one of the only things that Marth can use his Dash Attack for (other than comboing into it off of Nair, Fair, and Bair and for slipping under gordos to slice DDD and rare DA edge guards).

 

[Ikes]

I write a wall of text about Tink MUs and it gets ignored
feels bad, just wanna talk about his goods, he's super overlooked

 

[Routa]

About Marth vs Wario. As a Wario player, who is very familiar with this MU, I would say that the MU is a bit in Marths favour. Wario has very hard time to get in against almost every Swordfighter due to disjoints. Also even tho Wario is heavyweight he still gets KOed very early. Marth is one of the few characters that can edgeguard Wario well.

 

[TriTails]

I write a wall of text about Tink MUs and it gets ignored
feels bad, just wanna talk about his goods, he's super overlooked

Because he is super overlooked IS why no one replies you.

How are we going to discuss TL if we don't even know how he works at top level play?

 

[Shaya]

I write a wall of text about Tink MUs and it gets ignored
feels bad, just wanna talk about his goods, he's super overlooked

Toon Link is a ghost sir. Sorry for the feeling bad
I doubt most people have played a Toon Link before, let alone tournament level competent ones (or can share their views/thoughts on it)

He has a long list of tools in a game we truly know very little of holistically.
@Zan- maybe would be happy to share thoughts/ideas (can't wait to read the facebook post about the result of this tag <3).

 

[bc1910]

TL is Bombs: The Character.

If you struggle against bombs you'll struggle against TL. If you don't, you'll probably be fine.

Beyond that I don't think any of us know enough to discuss him properly.

 

[Ikes]

TL is Bombs: The Character.

If you struggle against bombs you'll struggle against TL. If you don't, you'll probably be fine.

Beyond that I don't think any of us know enough to discuss him properly.

toon link is bombs: the character if you're someone who doesn't fight competent toon links

sure, bombs are pretty integral to his character, but they're definitely not his life and soul.

if anyone wants to fight my toon link, I'm by no means a very high level player but I'd be willing to at leash show people the baseline of how TL should be played (or at least how I think he should be) just add m NNID i guess

I guess TL is probably the most overlooked character in the game at this point: even Lucario and Peach have had their momentsi n this thread, so i see why a lot of this gets ignored or lacks responses.

 

[bc1910]

toon link is bombs: the character if you're someone who doesn't fight competent toon links

sure, bombs are pretty integral to his character, but they're definitely not his life and soul.

if anyone wants to fight my toon link, I'm by no means a very high level player but I'd be willing to at leash show people the baseline of how TL should be played (or at least how I think he should be) just add m NNID i guess

I guess TL is probably the most overlooked character in the game at this point: even Lucario and Peach have had their momentsi n this thread, so i see why a lot of this gets ignored or lacks responses.

Have you ever seen BlueLink play?

He's the best Toon Link in Italy and one of the best Italian players full stop.

He uses a lot of bombs.

Incidentally I have played BlueLink myself and he's more than competent enough for me to have formed a valid opinion, thank you very much.

 

[A_Kae]

toon link is bombs: the character if you're someone who doesn't fight competent toon links

sure, bombs are pretty integral to his character, but they're definitely not his life and soul.

if anyone wants to fight my toon link, I'm by no means a very high level player but I'd be willing to at leash show people the baseline of how TL should be played (or at least how I think he should be) just add m NNID i guess

I guess TL is probably the most overlooked character in the game at this point: even Lucario and Peach have had their momentsi n this thread, so i see why a lot of this gets ignored or lacks responses.

So, what exactly is TL's basic gameplan? What's he going to be doing in a match?

As was said previously, most or all of us here have 0 idea about how TL does stuff.

Edit: Beyond projectile spam type stuff, that is.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Also, Jigglypuff has a great SHAD and DJAD game.

It's alright, but it's not super-great. Jigglypuff has the longest-lasting airdodge in the game, giving people more time to react to it. Jigglypuff also has very little burst range, so most characters can roll away if they don't anticipate it, but it doesn't really get Jigglypuff in like it does for other characters.

 

[Wintropy]

@ Vipermoon , I'm gonna say Marth does beat Pit. In my experience, what it really comes down to is Marth's range and priority: Pit's usually very good when it comes to walling out the opponent with disjointed f-airs and d-airs, but even with an aerial trade, Marth's optimal range (to wit, "as far from Pit as he can be while still able to register a hit") yields far more impressive results than Pit's. It used to be that Pit had a fairly easy time baiting an aerial out of Marth and then punishing the landing lag, but the decreased lag in 1.10 makes it a tiiiiny bit more dangerous for Pit to rely on that tactic. Now Pit has to be more careful with his approach and be wary of getting up in Marth's face for fear of getting four feet of disjointed sweetspot steel in his face. When your opponent's close-range options (jabs, smashes and all that jazzmatazz) have comparable frame data, better range, a far greater reward and can reliably kill at mid-high percents, footsies become a lot more important.

Marth can pressure Pit with his aerial wall and force him to make an approach, which is dangerous for Pit. Pit's more of a reactive fighter than anything else. I understand Marth is much the same, baiting a reaction and then playing for it, but in Marth's case, the reward is just better overall. Marth can force Pit to blink first, which can really put him in a state of distinct disadvantage.

Marth's also really fast so arrows become even more of a risk in neutral. I think it just comes down to Marth being able to trade favourably with Pit near-universally and expect a better deal out of the exchange. Math has muscle, Pit doesn't. I think that's a huge deal in this matchup.

Just to share my two cents. This is obviously just from personal experience, so make of it what thou wilt.

 

[Shaya]

Dash Attack and Dash Grab though :<

I don't think Pit really ever tried to out button Marth. Just played a safer neutral game (auto cancelled aerials, arrows if safe to, super armor for zealous things on read/reaction) while having two amazing punishment options Marth can't really avoid too well.

The better Marth gets though, the more likely that match up won't be good for Pit. His two dash options really set the pace negatively for Marth before, and the less likely he's able to do that (due to safer moves) the more the fact that Marth's got arcs and kills well spaced (where Pit is optimal) while Pit has to work with reads to finish stocks more often than not will result in Marth on average clinching it.

Ideally though this match up should be even. Precision based mid range punishing demons are their goals in life and when they have the same sword length, similar reliance on fundamentals and varying shades of strengths and weaknesses, it would be nice to know it comes out that way ("better player wins").

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Dash Attack is a pretty big deal for checking normal neutral options and punishing well, agreeing with Shaya here. I can see it getting more even as Marcina gets safer.

 

[Wintropy]

I dunno about dashes, dear. Maybe it's just because I've had the mantra of "IF YOU APPROACH YOU WILL DIE" hammered into my febrile feline skull, but I seem to recall Marth being capable of stopping any approach dead with a jab. I think pivot grab is just infinitely better than dash grab anyway.

I definitely agree with you on the safer neutral game front, but...I don't know. I don't think any of the options you mentioned are truly viable beyond maybe autocancel. Arrows are rarely if ever safe in neutral, especially against a character as fast and reactive as Marth. Arrow-cancel is a thing, but I am essentially wary of getting in the air for too long just out of fear of a SH d-air or jab -> f-smash knocking me for six.

Your final paragraph is exactly the issue in this matchup. Pit has to play consistently and carefully in order to win this matchup, whereas Marth just needs a couple of hard reads to seal the stock. It's a marginal difference, sure, but I think the brass-tacks reality is that Marth just has better tools to deal with Pit than the other way around.

Incidentally (if I am permitted to be a tad schmaltzy in here), this is why I love this thread. I'm relatively inexperienced with competitive Smash and I fear I am not able to express myself as well as others in that sense, but every time I come here, I learn something new. I'm very grateful for that. So thanks for the input, it's very nutritious food for thought~ :3

EDIT: Missed the last bit.

Agreed on the fundamentals issue. At the risk of expressing the inexpressibly obvious, it comes down to fundamentals: the player who understands their toolkit and how to use it better will inevitably win.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Marcina's not allowed to shorthop airdodge as much with the threat of Dash Attack being there. Certain tools that would be safe-ish to whiff against most characters are punishable by the Pits, and simply walking away creates the perfect opportunity for it a lot of the time.

 

[Wintropy]

Just gonna use Pit / Marth as a catch-all term for both Pits / both Falchions~

Can Pit reliably land and dash attack in the window of opportunity between firing a fullhop arrow and touching ground?

I guess it you're confident enough to fire an arrow in neutral, you're reasonably certain that Marth is far away enough that they won't be able to close the gap in time.

Agreed that Pit is a punish machine. My real concern in this matchup is that, similar to DK*, Marth can just wall out Pit with his CQC options. I'm always hesitant to approach even to punish just in case I whiff it and get counter-punished for it. That could definitely be more to do with personal mindset / experiential trauma, though. There are a few very good Falchions in Ireland, heh~

* I don't know if this is even a difficult matchup for Pit or I just play the wrong (right?) DKs. I inevitably have a hard time getting anywhere near him without a solid read / punish opportunity. He's much bigger and slower than Marth, though, so I guess the comparison isn't entirely valid. I still think opponents that can create a mobile wall around themselves are a tricky opponent for Pit.

 

[TriTails]

...Don't DK has fast run speed and up top there in airspeed? How is he slower than Marth?

 

[Antonykun]

Sheesh one hour i log off to go to sleep and now theres a massive storm against villager :/

Well Zee has proven himself to be one of the more negative Villager mains even before this event so I'm not suprised he did this

I'm not going to lie villager has a lot of weaknesses (even though Zee didn't even point her biggest one: everything good she does if off a SH as a floaty character with poor aerial mobility which is WHY she loses to fast characters) and I wish i could smack zee every time he said Villager loses to reflectors, no she doesn't the only Two reflectors she doesn't like are Falco and maybe Mario every other reflector is so unsafe villager can punish them. Look its the characters that own the reflectors that are the problem. Fox doesn't care about Villager's anything not because he can reflect them but because he can move around them so easily

I thought it was already established villager was a counterpick only character though

 

[A_Kae]

...Don't DK has fast run speed and up top there in airspeed? How is he slower than Marth?

DK run speed: 1.7031
Marth run speed: 1.785
DK walk speed: 1.3
Marth walk speed: 1.5 (although his acceleration is awful, so he's probably slower where it actually matters)
DK air speed: 1.15
Marth air speed: 1.02
DK fall speed: 1.63 [2.608]
Marth fall speed: 1.58 [2.528]

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Pretty comparable, but DK generally has larger pokes, for all it's worth.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Marth definately beats DK (I see a lot of people putting ??? for the matchup).
DK's spacing tools just don't beat out Marth's anymore. And Marth is one of those characters who is actually not vulnerable to Cargo Uthrow to Up air at kill percents (it only kills fastfallers).
Basically, when this matchup is played right it's this:
-Marth beats DK in neutral
-DK destroys marth when DK is in advantage.
-Once DK is offstage, gg

And getting DK offstage isn't exactly hard because Marth's throws an do it at 0% (which in many cases is better than a brainless Dthrow combo).
Also in Brawl, DK could net KOs at 80 and live to 250%. Now that momentum canceling with up b is gone and with DK's killpower nerfed this doesn't happen.
However, DK gets a lot from the rage mechanic which does help prevent this matchup from being worse than +1 Marth.

 

[Vipermoon]

DK run speed: 1.7031
Marth run speed: 1.785
DK walk speed: 1.3
Marth walk speed: 1.5 (although his acceleration is awful, so he's probably slower where it actually matters)
DK air speed: 1.15
Marth air speed: 1.02
DK fall speed: 1.63 [2.608]
Marth fall speed: 1.58 [2.528]

If you wonder why I keep liking your posts it's because you work SO hard for us A_Kae.

 

[Wintropy]

Slower frame data on his hitboxes, I mean.

You're right, though, "slower" isn't even the right word. What I mean to say is, DK's moderately higher frame data and weird pseudo-disjoints-that-aren't-really-disjoints make it easier for Pit to play aerials with him. The reward is significantly more brutal if DK can get the hit in, but a combination of Pit's frame data and DK's massive hurtbox make it much easier to punish him effectively than Marth.

The issue is that DK (again, in my experience, and my scene has some very solid Kongs) can just turn his entire hurtbox into a no-fly zone with his tilts (u-tilt is a horribly efficient anti-air) and his range makes it difficult for Pit to get in reliably if Pit has to approach. I feel that good reads are even more necessary in this matchup, in that DK gets punished very easily for every whiff, yet he can turn the match around with a couple of good reads and seal the stock with raw muscle.

It's Pit's eternal dilemma: great reactive options and chasedown game is top-notch, but he has to play consistently and cleverly to eke out a stock, since even just one good hit from a stronger opponent can waste him.

Of course, if you can get DK to approach, it's another matter entirely. Just that the DKs I'm used to fighting are effective enough at their powershield / punish game to make me wary of getting anywhere near them without fear of apey repercussion.

EDIT: Oh my god why can I not spell today.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Slower frame data on his hitboxes, I mean.

You're right, though, "slower" isn't even the right word. What I mean to say is, DK's moderately higher frame data and weird pseudo-disjoints-that-aren't-really-disjoints make it easier for Pit to play aerials with him. The reward is significantly more brutal if DK can get the hit in, but a combination of Pit's frame data and DK's massive hurtbox make it much easier to punish him effectively than Marth.

The issue is that DK (again, in my experience, and my scene has some very solid Kongs) can just turn his entire hurtbox into a no-fly zone with his tilts (u-tilt is a horribly efficient anti-air) and his range makes it difficult for Pit to get in reliably if Pit has to approach. I feel that good reads are even more necessary in this matchup, in that DK gets punished very easily for every whiff, yet he can turn the match around with a couple of good reads and seal the stock with raw muscle.

It's Pit's eternal dilemma: great reactive options and chasedown game is top-notch, but he has to play consistently and cleverly to eke out a stock, since even just one good hit from a stronger opponent can waste him.

Of course, it you can get DK to approach, it's another matter entirely. Just that the DKs I'm used to fighting are effective enough at their powershield / punish game to make me wary of getting anywhere near them without fear of apey repercussion.

Where is your scene because I'd like to move there XD

 

[bc1910]

If you guys really think Villager is a counterpick character, what tier would you put him in? Still high? Lower high? Upper mid? Or just "Counterpick tier" in between high and mid tier, maybe sitting with characters like Olimar?

I generally think high tiers can be solo mained in this game and I thought Villager could be, but that's not the impression I'm getting if you guys consider him a counterpick character. Just wondering where you'd all place him, not trying to turn this into a big tier list discussion by the way.