Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Vipermoon]

Where is your scene because I'd like to move there XD

Same unless it's customs on I'll glad be apart of a DK scene. Michigan uses too many good characters

 

[Wintropy]

On the subject of counterpick characters, is it fair to say Olimar is of a similar nature?

I remember a very good Olimar player in my scene telling me that you never pick Olimar first, as a difficult matchup (e.g. Captain Falcon, Sheik) can demolish him, yet he's a very solid counterpick for matchups where he's even / advantageous, especially if you play up to the "wait, what?!" factor of Olimar.

I have mixed opinions on the character. I feel that, on this side of the equation, he's a solid character and I'm very glad that he isn't being slept on as much anymore; on the other side, I reckon at least part of his viability is due to relatively little knowledge of the character in the current meta. He's a fairly rare pick and I feel that very few competitive players really know how to tackle him. I think it's fair to say that, when folks start to figure out the character, his initial "shock and awe" factor will dissipate.

Of course, that would be reliant on him making more waves at official events, so it's rather a vicious cycle as it is...

EDIT: I live in Ireland, where customs don't exist. ;3

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Same unless it's customs on I'll glad be apart of a DK scene. Michigan uses too many good characters

Yeah we got Rayquaza's Rosalina, Nom plays Olimar and Ryuuga plays Ike. It's a pretty diverse scene here.

And Ally mains everyone

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I think this reddit post does a good job at explaining DK's matchup against Marth
https://www.reddit.com/r/DonkeyKongMains/comments/3ey95b/dk_matchup_thread/ctjkiwh

 

[Cassio]

A couple of things on the subject of Villager:


1.) Nobody plays the character correctly except Ranai. He's the only one who uses Villager's great aerials as pressure tools, everybody else just thinks you can camp all day every day. That's not how Villager works. His projectiles, his mid- and long range options don't deal enough damage to make such strategies work. The only characters that Villager can legitimately outcamp are characters that rely on projectiles somewhere in their game plan - Duck Hunt, Pac-Man, Mega Man, you name it. Against everybody else you need to actually know how to play this character and make use of all the options he offers. The Villager metagame is far, far away from that point. Do you think it's coincidence that the most successdul Villager player uses his character that much differently from everybody else? There's clearly something he understands about the character that nobody else seems to realize yet.

A typical trait of members of the smash community is theyre generally tone deaf when it comes to approaching/aggression unless youre a melee player talking about melee. To most of the former Brawl community the answer is always camp more/play more defensive and if your character can't do that then your character sucks.

Edit: To elaborate on this, approaching is typically more demanding in many ways then defensive play (this is true in terms of theorycraft as well) but obviously offers its own strengths. Since its harder you wont see it develop as quickly; or as easily among lower level players. We can already see evidence of this to an extent, look at the metagame now compared to 9 months ago. Any solid top level player will have a more holistic approach to this even if they lean one way or another.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I mean, camping is usually a pretty good strategy. Things like the best rolls put a significant limit on how much you can apply offensive pressure, IMO.

You're still right, though.

 

[FullMoon]

Going back to the Marth discussion earlier, I can't see the MU vs Greninja being in Marth's favor really. I think it's even at worst for us.

That said though I don't even know the last time I got to play a good Marth even back at 1.0.9 so I have no experience with the super buffed Marth yet to really make a call on it.

 

[Firefoxx]

I have no idea how the matchup is now, but I will say that every time Marth gets better options on landing the less I want to play Falcon against him. Marcina has always been one of the most frustrating "good" matchups that Falcon has had in this game, so now that they are actually pretty good characters I wouldn't be surprised if they were favored.

 

[Ghostbone]

DK's pretty stupid now.

Cargo up-throw > up-b is like 40% and true combos.
Cargo up-throw > uair kills everyone at mid %s. (and the % range is pretty decent since he can either do it while fullhopping at slightly lower %s or from the ground at slightly higher %s)
Works better on fast fallers obviously but there's still tiny ranges that it works on floaties.

Idk why they gave him this much grab reward lmao, 3 grabs = a stock

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I mean, DK still needs to get grabs, and his mobility doesn't give him a ton of options for that (though he has large grabs in Smash 4). Yeah, he's noticeably better, but he was not a good character to begin with.

 

[meleebrawler]

DK's pretty stupid now.

Cargo up-throw > up-b is like 40% and true combos.
Cargo up-throw > uair kills everyone at mid %s. (and the % range is pretty decent since he can either do it while fullhopping at slightly lower %s or from the ground at slightly higher %s)
Works better on fast fallers obviously but there's still tiny ranges that it works on floaties.

Idk why they gave him this much grab reward lmao, 3 grabs = a stock

Given his all-star trophy description from Melee it seems they've always wanted DK to have a notable grab game.
Plus every heavy has something notable for a grab game even if it's just a special.

 

[Illuminose]

Luigi is in a weird position. He loses to Sheik and Rosa somewhat hard (like 60:40) but he pretty much has an advantage against the rest of the cast except Zero Suit (who he also loses to). Some niche weird matchups against certain projectile-based characters, but a lot of those matchups tend to be overblown because you can get around a lot of projectiles by simply shielding or using sh air dodge, and then Luigi gets in with superior mid range/close quarters mixups and starts his ridiculous reward. His neutral is really dominant and there's a lot of characters that can't keep up with his reward/insane guaranteed stuff. I think that Luigi is pretty much the ultimate second main/secondary in this sense. Let's take Sheik for instance (easy for me to explain). I don't have to pick up a secondary because Sheik is very good. However, Luigi has a lot more tools for killing and keeping up in terms of damage output. I don't have to work that hard to maintain a good Luigi. I can play Luigi against say Pikachu or Mario or Diddy Kong or Meta Knight, whomever I feel like would be easier with Luigi, if I want to. If you already have a character that can deal with Sheik and Rosalina as well as those certain weird projectile character matchups then you can pretty much use Luigi as an ultimate counterpicking character. I don't play Luigi, but I've been considering picking him up because I can use him to make certain matchups easier/less stressful as well as have a character with more reliable kills/kill power if I feel like I'm struggling to keep up in that regard. Larry Lurr having a Luigi is a really good example of this. tbh he probably has the best set of counterpicking characters at top level for this moment in general (Fox + Luigi + Sheik). It's very hard to place Luigi for me due to how I see him in the metagame. It's kinda hard to put him out of the top 5, definitely not out of the top 10.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Luigi will continue to get worse as players get better at camping him. There are a good number of individual matchups where Luigi loses by virtue of being too slow to get in and getting punished hard offstage.

 

[Ghostbone]

I mean, DK still needs to get grabs, and his mobility doesn't give him a ton of options for that (though he has large grabs in Smash 4). Yeah, he's noticeably better, but he was not a good character to begin with.

Not really saying he's viable, just that he's a really polarizing character now.

You cannot get grabbed vs DK below like 90. Especially at hoohah %s you should literally just platform camp him till he hits you with up-air or bair or something and you won't die to a grab.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

At least he has -something- he can do now, instead of not caring what he can do if he threatens a grab. I'd rather him revolve around a couple powerful tools than be basically helpless in a lot of situations.

 

[Man Li Gi]

@ Ghostbone
SALT.IS.DELICIOUS!

@ NachoOfCheese
@ Shaya
I'm gone a couple hours and I see people talking mess about DK? This part is explicitly for you Shaya: I didn't believe the Marth v DK MU was even at all in Brawl. DK's arms were just as long as Marth's blade and even outranged for some attacks (u angled ftilt outranged Marth Fair). Marth never had a reliable killing option outside of utilt on DK and even then, MC and staling would take over. DK honestly had the upper hand in the MU, but just couldn't play risky as counter, footstool dair, and general edgeguarding is a pain.

In this game, I say the MU is actually even as each hit box landed is that more important. So what if cargo u throw uair don't kill? It still racks up serious and quick damage which Marth can't (thankfully) match. SHAD nair or fair or uair (yes into utilt) are some things some Marths in my region do (funny my region has a decent amount of Marths and others have a lot of DK) and while it does hit and add up, you still have to go hard for kills. Yes countering or fairing or even nair the up b can edgeguard, but nair and bair also instill fear into Marth. Pretty much why people say the MU was even in Brawl IMHO because not many people could substantiate a true argument on DK's end due to having low reps.

@ Wintropy
Pit puts DK in two of the three negative states I mentioned in a post a while back (in regards specifically to the ape). Pit is easily one of the best characters to cover people's landings and easily forces (or I should say tricks) approaches from DK. A Pit that's on point could even make DK throw out bad hitboxes. All in all, you should not be afraid when facing a DK, in fact if you do that.....gl. The MU should still be in Pit's favor if you play nice and patient as most DK's hate that (usually causes an approach).

 

[bc1910]

On the subject of counterpick characters, is it fair to say Olimar is of a similar nature?

I remember a very good Olimar player in my scene telling me that you never pick Olimar first, as a difficult matchup (e.g. Captain Falcon, Sheik) can demolish him, yet he's a very solid counterpick for matchups where he's even / advantageous, especially if you play up to the "wait, what?!" factor of Olimar.

I have mixed opinions on the character. I feel that, on this side of the equation, he's a solid character and I'm very glad that he isn't being slept on as much anymore; on the other side, I reckon at least part of his viability is due to relatively little knowledge of the character in the current meta. He's a fairly rare pick and I feel that very few competitive players really know how to tackle him. I think it's fair to say that, when folks start to figure out the character, his initial "shock and awe" factor will dissipate.

Of course, that would be reliant on him making more waves at official events, so it's rather a vicious cycle as it is...

EDIT: I live in Ireland, where customs don't exist. ;3

I had Olimar in mind when I was talking about counterpick characters too. Villager, Olimar, maybe Little Mac and Duck Hunt seem like great characters held back by a few really poor MUs, but they do better in other MUs than most of the cast. The latter two probably aren't as good overall, but you get the idea.

For these characters I think acknowledgement of the fact that they are great counterpick characters is more important than actually deciding what tier to place them in.

Going back to the Marth discussion earlier, I can't see the MU vs Greninja being in Marth's favor really. I think it's even at worst for us.

That said though I don't even know the last time I got to play a good Marth even back at 1.0.9 so I have no experience with the super buffed Marth yet to really make a call on it.

I've just been playing with my friend and SH Double Shuriken really does a number on Marth's Fair spacing. You need good timing to actually hit the peak of his short hop and get the second shuriken out before you land, but yeah.

 

[Browny]

Man this is crazy, I go out for a few hours and come back, suddenly Marth is winning most matchups and is a tournament threat. I can't adapt, the theorycraft meta is 2fast4me.

 

[Wintropy]

@ Man Li Gi , thanks for the feedback! I guess my real issue with DK is that the Kongs I face are very good at working the Ganon Tactics, i.e. getting the hard read that puts you in a position for a followup read, then just go to town on you to seal the stock. Even when I force the approach, I know that if DK gets the read, he just needs a couple of clean hits to finish me off. Even more so now that DK's just a good grab away from victory.

I can definitely appreciate that Pit has the advantage in theory, but in practice, the knowledge that you're never more than a couple of hard reads away from certain death tends to eat at you. To reiterate what I said earlier, it's why I'm a tiny bit afraid of Marth: his imperative on good fundamentals rivals ours, with the added advantage that he just needs a solid setup to finish the stock. As a character that has to rack up damage with good footsies and careful micromanagement of intrinsic resources before even dreaming of getting the kill, that is quite scary!

 

[LancerStaff]

@ Man Li Gi , thanks for the feedback! I guess my real issue with DK is that the Kongs I face are very good at working the Ganon Tactics, i.e. getting the hard read that puts you in a position for a followup read, then just go to town on you to seal the stock. Even when I force the approach, I know that if DK gets the read, he just needs a couple of clean hits to finish me off. Even more so now that DK's just a good grab away from victory.

I can definitely appreciate that Pit has the advantage in theory, but in practice, the knowledge that you're never more than a couple of hard reads away from certain death tends to eat at you. To reiterate what I said earlier, it's why I'm a tiny bit afraid of Marth: his imperative on good fundamentals rivals ours, with the added advantage that he just needs a solid setup to finish the stock. As a character that has to rack up damage with good footsies and careful micromanagement of intrinsic resources before even dreaming of getting the kill, that is quite scary!

Maybe it's just me, but I find it hard to fear anything. I mean, I'm not walking into projectiles and stuff, but I tend to not crack under pressure of powerful moves so long as they have weaknesses.

Maybe I just use the Upperdash Arm too much.

 

[Man Li Gi]

@ Wintropy
I have no doubts that facing against a heavy does play a factor in fear, but learn to not fear, but as combo food. MU is irrelevant as long your mentality is hurting you. I believe you can do it!

 

[Nabbitnator]

Is it actually cancelling hitstun or is it just one of those frame 1 invincibles? If it's the former it needs to be removed.

I've actually lost a tourney match that way. I got the read with zss' up b and got killed for it. Was rather stupid as i ended up in an instant disadvantage. I do hope its a glitch.

 

[C0rvus]

Anyone in this thread planning on going to SKTAR? Would love to play some of you and lose a bunch.

I've been coming to terms with the fact that Robin is probably best as a counterpick character (though far less effective than most). But what character needs heavies and swordies covered? How effectively can Robin to that? I want to get out of pools at SKTAR but I'm afraid Robin can't take me there. There are just so many characters that force me off of him. The buffs made his reward much better but he still has the same fundamental flaws that make you bad in this game. I love having character-based existential crises but that's all I do in Smash.

Since we're doing theory-based MU charts, thought I would try and make one for Robin since he's the only character I feel like I'm allowed to talk about. This is a good deal based on theory and stuff, since I don't have meaningful experience against a few characters.

+1:
0:
-1:
-2:

I'm likely incredibly wrong and just suck, so feel free to yell at me as long as you explain why I am wrong.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm pretty sure Greninja doesn't beat Robin that badly. He possibly has an advantage (hard to tell now with the buffs) but it's not to that extent.

 

[C0rvus]

I'm pretty sure Greninja doesn't beat Robin that badly. He possibly has an advantage (hard to tell now with the buffs) but it's not to that extent.

Yeah I mean, I'm certain he has an advantage, but I may have put him too high simply because I have yet to play the MU in this patch. The buffed Shuriken might make it that bad, but I'm not sure at the same time.

Edit: Bumped him down to -1. Probably more appropriate.

 

[Nobie]

Will DK's improved dash attack be a factor at all in any matchups?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

How does Shulk lose to Robin?

 

[Man Li Gi]

@ Nobie
Well, in the early meta it could for a pseudo approach or last second punish, but future/optimized meta, I highly doubt it.

 

[Firefoxx]

Will DK's improved dash attack be a factor at all in any matchups?

Maybe to get away from stuff as a "burst" movement option? Idk, it still seems pretty tough to utilize.

Edit: Also, I'm finally actually getting a chance to mess around with Falcon post patch. Bair nerf didn't hurt too much, still KO's Mario at the edge at about 100%. Jab nerf just means that gentleman is for sure the best vs non heavies.

The "most swords and projectiles are good now" meta won't be super fun for him, but his tools are still mostly intact.

(and now that I'm actually moved into my new place I might be able to lab new uair super hard. There are like a million KO setups possible with that thing I swear)

 

[Smog Frog]

ooooooh theory based mu charts

time to make mine for (-2=4/6, -1=45/55, 0=5/5, +1=55:45, +2=6/4 for those who prefer x/x)

-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
+2:

...thats alot of +1

am i overrating my character? underrating? am i using these numbers wrong? is this an honest assessment of mu spread?

 

[C0rvus]

It's a slight loss (55-45). The gist of it is that Robin has the advantage at full screen, but Shulk wins if he can keep Robin at his preferred fixed distance. Robin also has slightly better boxing options (jab, down tilt) and better aerials in terms of auto cancels, so Robin can play reactionary for the most part and punish landings and whiffs with projectiles and aerials. The bottom line is that Shulk can do little against heavily defensive play, and Robin is pretty good at it.

Shulk does have good damage racking and his superior mobility can really shine against Robin. He also has a good time batting Robin offstage with Jump active. On the same coin, Robin has little trouble securing edge guards against Shulk between his poor sweet spotting ability, nair, Elwind, and projectiles. In practice, the MU tends to play out in a more even manner, since both characters have various strengths over each other, but I feel Robin has a slight advantage, especially with the new buffs making our reward more consistent and Arcthunder essentially acting like a disjointed grab. Shulk has more range at which he needs to respect Robin, and his success in the MU depends on how well he can get into his own zone and stay there.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

I think the Meta Knight Matchup against sonic is a -1 rather than a -2 ever since sonic got his Back throw nerfed.

 

[warionumbah2]

I think the Meta Knight Matchup against sonic is a -1 rather than a -2 ever since sonic got his Back throw nerfed.

You could've left him to think its +2 y'know. <.<"

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I would say you're underrating Sonic. With a large enough difference in mobility, characters missing things like reliable punishes on Sonic's options get beaten pretty badly. I would say that a lot of your +1s are +2s and some of your +2s are +3s.

Also, comparing ratios to regular +/- is pretty subjective in comparison. I would say that advantages represented by those numbers are bigger than your thing (so my idea of a +2 is kind of like if you had a +2.5).

 

[san.]

I'm probably the only high level Ike that think Sonic is even, but I only ever play against custom Sonic, so maybe it's a lot easier in customs off.

 

[Noa.]

If we're discussing matchup spreads, here's the general consensus between Ness mains and the most important tournament matchups:

-2:
-1:
0:
+1:
+2:

 

[Nabbitnator]

I'm probably the only high level Ike that think Sonic is even, but I only ever play against custom Sonic, so maybe it's a lot easier in customs off.

It is easier to fight him during customs off. You dont have to worry about him crossing up on shield and all that crap that comes a long with that custom.

 

[RedBeefBaron]

I think Luigi's changes will end up hitting him harder than it seems right now. After playing a bunch of matches against someone who knows what they're doing it's much harder to to get grabs with the fireball nerf and d tilt feels like unreliable trash compared to what it was. Sure, if you get really lucky and it trips you can link grab or up b, but it can't be counted on and it will never work above like 65%. The KB is not that strong so I don't think its gonna be a reliable stage spike against most characters unless they are at some ridiculous %.

All of his match ups just got harder as it's easier to keep him out and win projectile wars and its harder to get the grab when its crucial for the kill, such as against Mario and Pikachu, due to the fireball nerf. Mario feels much closer to even. How does Pikachu lose to Luigi now with all that mobility and a better projectile to force approaches, along with an excellent gimp game to beat his awful recovery?

@Emblem Lord How do you feel about Marth and Lucy being buffed but Roy being untouched? Is he now outclassed? What are Roy's strengths compared to those two and what matchups will Roy win over them?

 

[Smog Frog]

still has a grab game over / and thats enough imo

 

[bc1910]

Yeah I mean, I'm certain he has an advantage, but I may have put him too high simply because I have yet to play the MU in this patch. The buffed Shuriken might make it that bad, but I'm not sure at the same time.

Edit: Bumped him down to -1. Probably more appropriate.

To be honest I can see him at -2 with the new shurikens. Robin does not like other fast projectiles in my experience. Shurikens outrange Thunder and the fully charged one goes through Arcfire. -1 is fine for now though, that's probably what it was prepatch.

Sheik should probably be -2 or worse for Robin, though. Needles are transcendent so they go through everything, forcing him to approach, and he gets wrecked up close... seems like one of the most polarized MUs in the game.