Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[A_Kae]

Here are all of that guy's tweets on this matter, in order:

https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627695483834757120
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627697691569582080
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627698157355466756
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627698508703924224
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627698624437297152
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627699334818197504
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627699962319646720
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627700561199108096
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627701513528414208
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627701990206914560
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627702696598990848
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627703449963134977
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627703887898746880
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627704125531246592
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627704707771969536
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627704825237635072

 

[Ikes]

It's time to talk about Chakram
Chakram is a legit ridiculous move now and no this isn't just the Chakram infinite

Fast Chakram has endlag similar to SoL but is definitely some frames slower on start up. Basically this move is link's boomerang a multi directional projectile that helps to cover huge amounts of space and synchs up really nicely with SoL as far as a projectile game goes. Not only that but just like Link's boomerang Fast Chakram works as an edgeguarding tool hitting opponents offstage without Swordfighter having to leave the stage.

Now for the elephant in the room, Slow Chakram. First of all Slow Chakram is a hitconfirm into anything (even another Slow Chakram but you already knew that) and is thus a kill move 8 percent less than whenever Up-smash/F-smash kills here are some basic combos from Slow Chakram:


but another important thing about Slow Chakram is that it can be done in the air angled down to be used like a landing option one that can lead to massive damage/the stock

customs swordfighter is now A+ tier, top 10

 

[TriTails]

He shuts down characters like Luigi

Lol.

The jab infinite (jab lock is something different) is gone at higher percent as it knocks them away too far. At low percents, it still connects. Still sade on shield.

So uh...

It doesn't serve as a kill setup anymore? Just a combo? Better than nothing I suppose.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

I can assure you that Villager destroys DK. Powersheilding can only get you so far when he's constantly throwing **** into your giant hurtbox.

 

[ぱみゅ]

What people need to do is stop respecting Lloyd Rocket. Just run to him, and Dash Attack or Dash Grab or do a disjointed attack, whatever lingers the most or covers more ground.

 

[FullMoon]

Speaking of Villager I just had something happen today that was interesting. I was playing at a con and against a Villager I used Hydro Pump on his balloons and it actually popped one of them.

Can Hydro Pump pop the balloons now or could it always do that? I could've sworn I've tested it before and they didn't pop.

If they can then Greninja can really ruin Villager's recovery if he spaces the water jet so that it won't hit Villager but will hit the balloon.

 

[C0rvus]

I can't imagine Villager having an issue with Luigi. He can camp harder. Isn't that all it really takes?

 

[TriTails]

Here are all of that guy's tweets on this matter, in order:

https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627695483834757120
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627697691569582080
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627698157355466756
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627698508703924224
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627698624437297152
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627699334818197504
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627699962319646720
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627700561199108096
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627701513528414208
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627701990206914560
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627702696598990848
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627703449963134977
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627703887898746880
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627704125531246592
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627704707771969536
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627704825237635072

Thanks Kae.

-> Reads 6th tweet and beyond.

-> Ded.

I can't imagine Villager having an issue with Luigi. He can camp harder. Isn't that all it really takes?

Sure. If you don't have an idea what you are doing with Luigi.

 

[LancerStaff]

You know what? It's a lie, I don't believe him. Samus was never the best. He didn't mean FFAs nor was Samus nerfed before release. He simply saw the characters the players didn't choose and happened to pick Samus out of them. Telling us she was the best was him trying to convince us that the game will be balanced and that you shouldn't judge a character by its cover.

Pretty sure Samus lost a ton... Mostly raw damage I think. Some guy called Dungeon Master or something on the Samus forums would know.

 

[Nu~]

Here are all of that guy's tweets on this matter, in order:

https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627695483834757120
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627697691569582080
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627698157355466756
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627698508703924224
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627698624437297152
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627699334818197504
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627699962319646720
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627700561199108096
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627701513528414208
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627701990206914560
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627702696598990848
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627703449963134977
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627703887898746880
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627704125531246592
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627704707771969536
https://twitter.com/RIBB_Zee/status/627704825237635072

We can always count on you to handle the details of the operation

 

[C0rvus]

Sure. If you don't have an idea what you are doing with Luigi.

What answer does Luigi have to being lamed out by Villager? I don't know how useful Fireballs are here, and your mobility is about on par, air mobility is much worse. Pocket is a thing I guess, so he puts more stuff on the screen than you do. Against VIllager, wat do?

 

[Smog Frog]

i remember someone saying up b pre release was kinda borked.

 

[Nu~]

Speaking of Villager I just had something happen today that was interesting. I was playing at a con and against a Villager I used Hydro Pump on his balloons and it actually popped one of them.

Can Hydro Pump pop the balloons now or could it always do that? I could've sworn I've tested it before and they didn't pop.

If they can then Greninja can really ruin Villager's recovery if he spaces the water jet so that it won't hit Villager but will hit the balloon.

Everyone can screw up villager's recovery though. He's almost as vulnerable as DHD.

Throw a strawberry, throw needles, fireballs...
Just about anything can pop the balloons.

 

[FullMoon]

Everyone can screw up villager's recovery though. He's almost as vulnerable as DHD.

Throw a strawberry, throw needles, fireballs...
Just about anything can pop the balloons.

I rarely see Villager's recovery being stopped by people popping the balloons.

I did some testing just now and Hydro Pump on the balloons is awfully incosistent, sometimes it pops a balloon sometimes not, it never pops both though.

It would be nice if we could pop both with one Hydro Pump.

... Nice for us that is, Villager mains probably wouldn't like it lol.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Everyone can screw up villager's recovery though. He's almost as vulnerable as DHD.

Throw a strawberry, throw needles, fireballs...
Just about anything can pop the balloons.

Is hitting the balloons without hitting Villager suddenly easy or something? Because last I checked it was nearly impossible.

 

[Nu~]

Is hitting the balloons without hitting Villager suddenly easy or something? Because last I checked it was nearly impossible.

You know this is an exaggeration. If you have a disjoint/projectile that doesn't keep going when you hit the balloons (needles, fruit, fire balls), then you have a way to pop the balloons without hitting villager.

 

[⑨ball]

Speaking of Villager I just had something happen today that was interesting. I was playing at a con and against a Villager I used Hydro Pump on his balloons and it actually popped one of them.

Can Hydro Pump pop the balloons now or could it always do that? I could've sworn I've tested it before and they didn't pop.

If they can then Greninja can really ruin Villager's recovery if he spaces the water jet so that it won't hit Villager but will hit the balloon.

I've been scouring Dantarion's dump for system changes because I've been able to pop them with a lot of moves that I know for sure never worked.

Articles were released recently and Villager had no changes to balloons apparently, and while there were changes to many of the moves I tested, a few of them were not(WFT hula hoops, Fox fair, Pac-Man dair).

These are moves that I know for sure had issues popping balloons as multihits would not register quickly or at all if they hit the first balloon causing them to bump against it weirdly, or stay out and in place long enough for Villager to get hit.

I'm trying not to fall into the placebo trap but it seems on top of roll and spot dodge changes, there may have been a change to multihit moves.

Has anyone else experienced something similar?

 

[Ghostbone]

What answer does Luigi have to being lamed out by Villager? I don't know how useful Fireballs are here, and your mobility is about on par, air mobility is much worse. Pocket is a thing I guess, so he puts more stuff on the screen than you do. Against VIllager, wat do?

Fireballs eat the lloyd, which is good enough lol.

 

[Teshie U]

If you can stack up projectiles to get a higher rate of fire than Luigi, or shoot something that will go through the fireball, its good enough. Villager, Megaman and characters with charge shots definitely force Luigi to approach.

Villager is terrible because he is just too slow for most good characters.

 

[Vipermoon]

So I did some labbing with Robin to see if he was a threat to me.

A few things I noticed (Marth was my CPU).

Dthrow rarely combos into things. It only starts comboing into jab in the late 30%s. There is a small window it combos into Usmash and actually can kill... but DI so who cares? It only combos into Uair at very high percents, we aren't talking early kills. And not sure but it seems DI is the counter to this throw. I mean, he can probably catch double jumps and an air dodge can be punished really hard but I'm not afraid of this new throw.

See the problems are Dthrow still has noticeable end lag and just checked this one: Robin's jumpsquat is 7 FRAMES! WHY? WHY is it 7 frames? That's almost freakin Bowser's!

Side note: seems to me that Robin's fox trot is faster than his run. Lmao.

 

[TriTails]

What answer does Luigi have to being lamed out by Villager? I don't know how useful Fireballs are here, and your mobility is about on par, air mobility is much worse. Pocket is a thing I guess, so he puts more stuff on the screen than you do. Against VIllager, wat do?

Lloids are stopped by Fireballs, and can also be shielded or shorthopped. Villager can stop Fireballs with Pocket, stop shielding bry grabbing and shorthopping by doing an aerial, but SH N-air I'm sure beats or trades with Villy's aerials.

Villy's mobility is kinda terrible. 5th or 4th slowest run speed, and airspeed is slow.

Villy does not simply 'put stuffs on the screen'. Aside from the Tree and Lloid, what does he has? Slingshots? Tree is kinda short-ranged. I just run to the other side of the stage and there isn't really anything Villy could do. Lloid is above, slingshots are beaten by N-air and shields, and can only be used once in a SH. Once we get in we wreck him hard.

It's 60:40 Villy but saying Villy shuts Luigi down by just 'camping' is fairly an ignorant thing to do because then Luigi might as well rot in bottom tier if that's was the case.

 

[Superbat]

Since were talking about villager I'll post this here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q03qKFsigBk (Ranai with villager vs. Ikep with Rosalina GFs)
I think this is the first time ranai has lost a tournament in Japan. The rosalina MU looks super painful for Villager. Ikep also gave Ranai a swift 2-0 in the winners Finals as well. found here.

 

[Browny]

...Again, might as well close up the thread (or the entire site), since there's no point in talking about anything and nothing matters.

Why doesn't the same apply to you, or anyone else? Why aren't you making your character better instead of posting long screeds against people on a forum? Why don't you just deal with the fact that I can't deal, and prove me wrong by winning tournaments with Mewtwo (which despite how much I apparently hate him, I am one of the only people placing anywhere with him)?

Also, I mained a character that got a massive change right as people became aware of something that went viral (Link). Link's jab cancels were nonexistent on FG, and if FG was all that mattered, Link wouldn't have been massively buffed in the next patch either.

Who knows what they listen to? All I know is that public opinion obviously does matter to some extent, and that's something we can influence in whatever small degree. Regardless, it's a hell of a lot more productive than just sitting here circle-jerking on the same **** for 800 some pages.

Sorry if this came off too strong, but I'm clearly being singled out here and I'm not having it.

Why don't you check out my post history, outside of managing the community voted tier thread, I'm always posting stuff on the Mewtwo boards about how to better use his attacks, specifically about advancing use of Shadowball and dair-oos into fair for a 27% punish.

http://smashboards.com/threads/mr-f...-revamp-round-two.398158/page-9#post-19811684

There's a good start. That is actually a buff he received that many people, including myself didn't even notice. We can focus on utilising that in matches instead of posting about how bad you think he is? Its not even situational, that tactic was extremely potent in brawl so its back and more deadly with Mewtwo with its massive shield damage.

 

[Dabuz]

Just poking in since we are talking about Villager, MJG doesn't think Villager is solo main viable because he has too many bad MUs, nothing unwinnable but just, he has to outplay the opponent. Was also running Rosa vs. Villager on wifi and yeah, Villager basically struggles to do ANYTHING with most of his moveset at anything but close range...and luma is able to secure Rosa's close range dominance, only thing Villager really has is being able to hi Rosa because of her size with fair/ bair if she isn't always GPing.

 

[bc1910]

Pit's arrows had a faf of 46 in the air previously. They've lost a frame at least... Most likely more.

...Dang. Pit has one of the fastest (or fastest) projectiles now. And it does everything but KO and travels across 97% of FD with no charge. That's kinda crazy.

Greninja's air shurikens have a FAF of 39 now. It's pretty insane. Short hop double shuriken is nowhere near as good but it's the closest thing in this game to SHDL now.

With regard to Villager I find it hard to believe he's as bad as some are saying because of Ranai's results. It's all very well to say "one person doesn't make a character viable" but that's basically what we see with Dabuz/Rosa and ESAM/Pikachu and they're considered top tier. Thoughts on this?

Oh and on the subject of Greninja's OoS game. It's probably not as bad as you think it is. By short hopping out of shield and using FF Nair you punish anyone who tries to pressure your shield. If someone likes to buffer shield after hitting yours, grab still works, and you can frame trap their spotdodge with grab > jab if you have enough frame advantage. Rolling in either direction is answered by dashgrab and turnaround Fsmash. Greninja's OoS game isn't good, but it's about punishing the option you think is coming, and his punishes are hard.

Also, jab is a 3 frame move hence 10 frame OoS option, giving him a better option than a lot of characters with slow grabs and jabs (the Links and Zelda come to mind). But yeah, if Greninja had a normal grab with 8 frame startup or less that'd be very helpful.

 

[⑨ball]

With regard to Villager I find it hard to believe he's as bad as some are saying because of Ranai's results. It's all very well to say "one person doesn't make a character viable" but that's basically what we see with Dabuz/Rosa and ESAM/Pikachu and they're considered top tier. Thoughts on this?

Tierlists are supposed to be thought of with the highest level in mind so it's not so much that one person makes a character viable as it is one person can show that a character is viable when played at it's current peak.

This is the same reason why players will often rate their characters much higher or lower than what the general public thinks. Either they're thinking in terms of un/under utilized tech or they're thinking in relation to themselves and other high level players.

I have no doubt in mind that ZeRo could write a 40 page essay on why Diddy is actually bad, but regardless of his skill, his opinions on the matter have to be taken with a grain of salt as we look at what things outside of the objective influence his beliefs.

 

[DanGR]

Villager? Bad? Have I been keeping track of the wrong tournaments this whole time?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

A couple of things on the subject of Villager:


1.) Nobody plays the character correctly except Ranai. He's the only one who uses Villager's great aerials as pressure tools, everybody else just thinks you can camp all day every day. That's not how Villager works. His projectiles, his mid- and long range options don't deal enough damage to make such strategies work. The only characters that Villager can legitimately outcamp are characters that rely on projectiles somewhere in their game plan - Duck Hunt, Pac-Man, Mega Man, you name it. Against everybody else you need to actually know how to play this character and make use of all the options he offers. The Villager metagame is far, far away from that point. Do you think it's coincidence that the most successdul Villager player uses his character that much differently from everybody else? There's clearly something he understands about the character that nobody else seems to realize yet.

Since were talking about villager I'll post this here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q03qKFsigBk (Ranai with villager vs. Ikep with Rosalina GFs)
I think this is the first time ranai has lost a tournament in Japan. The rosalina MU looks super painful for Villager. Ikep also gave Ranai a swift 2-0 in the winners Finals as well. found here.

2.) Rosalina is a hard matchup for Villager, potentially his worst - regardless of how you play Villager. There's a reason I call Rosalina the #3 pick for "metagame defining characters" even though she probably isn't the 3rd best character. It's because she's quite a cockblock for a lot characters. You can see characters get destroyed by Rosie in high level play beause that'S kinda what she does. She tends to polarize matchups heavily.

3.) Ranai has "lost" many tournaments in Japan. I think he won maybe 3 of them, everything else is him placing between 2nd and 7th. I don't think he's ever placed outside of top 8 though [including his Brawl time!]

 

[Emblem Lord]

Meh, Marth feels very linear, and lacking in some .
Due to shield being so strong, in this game Marth's poor grab range & not so fearsome combos, he struggles a bit, as Shield Breaker is rather predictable.
I believe he's one of the better Low tiers, maybe i'm underrating him, maybe not.
I'd like to add that in this period of the metagame, even bottom tiers have a chance to shine, every character in this game, unlike other smash games, have more than 1 good move, they have some overall qualities.

You realize Marth has always been linear right?

Like even when he gave people nightmares in melee.

Just saying. Marth as a character, you pretty much know what hes going to do. The question is, can his opponent stop it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Oh yeah, I meant to post this earlier because people have talked about the potential of Marth being high tier. I have my doubts about that as well. To tell you the truth I'm not even sure who Marth has a solid advantage against except for the 'obvious' low/bottom characters. Despit the buffs that Marth has received shaky matchups like DK, Swordfighter, Charizard and Greninja all have become a good deal harder over time and even characters like Mewtwo or DDD have never been easy matchups for Marth. Realistically, in a non-custom metagame we're looking at a matchup spread that looks close to this:

-2:
-1:
+0:
+0:
+1:


??:

-> DK and Sworfighter are possibly -1 for Marth now, I have no idea about the rest. I doubt any of them is better than +1 though.

I personally don't thinks it adds up to a high tier character.

 

[TriTails]

One thing I notice about Marth is on how scary his landing Shield Breaker is. You pursue horizontally on the ground, he charges Shield Breaker. You notices this and reflexively use shield. But then Marth release his charge and either murders your shield or kill you with a tippered SB.

Or on how you hold shield when he is doing DB, and then he suddenly stop and uses uncharged SB and breaks your shield because you think he is going to complete the whole combo but no.

#CharacterUnfamiliarty #StrategyUnfamiliarty #GitGudScrub

 

[Emblem Lord]

Marth doesnt lose to Yoshi or Falcon. He barely lost to Falcon before the patches. Now that he can hold his space lol. No way. CF's recovery and poor disadvantage is what Marth thrives on.

I think Villager mains call that match even. I have little experience in it. But Marth doesnt care much about Villagers normals or Lloyd.

 

[Shaya]

Sheik is honestly easier than ZSS. But it's still horrendous.

Although I doubt I've ever played "the best greninja", across all my travels, even early WiiU, Marth was -great- against Greninja. As in, ZSS:Greninja is probably like even or so, even if I'm the better player I can struggle to outspace him, approach or handle his camping (at least it's pretty mutual, Greninja doesn't want to approach ZSS either). But Marth vs Greninja? I think now that most of his aerials are safe on his shield (early WiiU everything was shield drop dash grab fodder or otherwise shield grabbed), now that isn't the case. Meanwhile the key most potent thing that allowed him to actually somehow compete against Greninja was short hop air dodge approaches, easily allows him to go through shurikens or just about every one of greninja's grounded movements, then with 10 frames of leeway to aerial, land into shield or jump, will out "do" anything Greninja can throw at him in this situation. Oh and fast fallen low to the ground aerials weren't dash grab fodder.

Greninja's disadvantaged state or most of his abilities tend to rely on out prioritising (through whatever means necessary) and that plainly isn't feasible for Greninja to do that consistently against Marth. Forward Air will beat his entire moveset. Not too many characters from the Brawl to S4 transition can say "I still suck against Marth's forward air", Greninjas a newbie and maybe his meta will develop to over come those shortfalls, but right now 6 years of Brawl Meta Marth even as a useless bottom tier was generally overwhelming for Greninja to handle.

I would not feel confident to say Marth's high tier right now, but what I will say is that he is now passively forcing his will on a greater portion of the cast. Flaws in people's movements can be capitalized on by Marth and it's no freebie to get away. Stuff like reduced invincibility on dodges is something Marth is pretty happy about, defensive option "spam" has been his critical point of inability and amidst the buffs and nerfs those options had.. Hmmm, juicy.

Yoshi doesn't like dancing blade much still. Not too many characters from the Brawl to S4 transition can say "I still suck against Marth's danci-", wait, WAIT, IT'S THE EXACT OPPOSITE. EVERYONE STILL SUCKS AGAINST MARTH'S DANCING BLADE. Yoshi didn't particularly like it in Brawl though. Oh and during WiiU release, dancing blade was guaranteed to be punished by Greninja on hit, so ever since that's been a usable move again stuffs been better too.

Marth probably beats Villager too (SH air dodge fair is bogus). Until I think about Marth recovering.... ughh.
Wait... new characters suck against Marth's forward air while everyone old has tools designed to deal with such hocus pocus now? Makes sense.
One could argue we do pretty well against Rosalina too... Shulk or maybe Mii Brawler are our worst match ups out of new characters.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Brawler depends entirely on where you are playing and if they allow the optimal small set. If its normal Brawler with 1111 then Marth obliterates him.

Everything else I agree with Shaya and I'm overall impressed wtih Ghebs match-up list.

Better then most Marth "mains"

ha

 

[Vipermoon]

Oh yeah, I meant to post this earlier because people have talked about the potential of Marth being high tier. I have my doubts about that as well. To tell you the truth I'm not even sure who Marth has a solid advantage against except for the 'obvious' low/bottom characters. Despit the buffs that Marth has received shaky matchups like DK, Swordfighter, Charizard and Greninja all have become a good deal harder over time and even characters like Mewtwo or DDD have never been easy matchups for Marth. Realistically, in a non-custom metagame we're looking at a matchup spread that looks close to this:

-2:
-1:
+0:
+0:
+1:


??:

-> DK and Sworfighter are possibly -1 for Marth now, I have no idea about the rest. I doubt any of them is better than +1 though.

I personally don't thinks it adds up to a high tier character.

Sorry but this isn't too accurate. My opinions on your stuff using my theory/experience/spectating:

Version 1.1.0. Format is beats, possibly beats, even, possibly even, possibly loses to, and loses to.

-2s. I don't think Sheik is in her separate section.

-1s. Marth beats Falcon (curious, why does everyone who doesn't use Marth say Falcon wins?) and Greninja, and possibly beats Villager. Marth is possibly even with Diddy.

+0s. Marth beats DHD, Falco, Ganon, Little Mac, Ness, Peach, Ryu and possibly beats Pit, Pacman, and Rosalina. Marth loses to DDD, Olimar, Pikachu, Sonic, and possibly loses to Luigi, MK, and Shulk.

+1s. Marth is possibly even with Kirby. Barely beats Lucina but yes, he does.

??s. Marth beats Bowser, Jigglypuff, Lucas, WFT, and possibly beats Palutena. Marth is even with Bowser Jr. Marth possibly loses to Charizard, DK, and Toon but could definitely be even with those three as well.

This is non-customs so while I have no experience against Miis (or spectating Marth vs Mii) IMO they all suck in non-customs so Marth probably wins.

 

[Shaya]

Oh yeah, standard mii brawler is peace of cake. Guaranteed to die off stage, guaranteed to never be able to land. Glorious.
But Tiny Brawler is a joke of a character in Smash Bros and completely emasculates him.

IMO his even/hard match ups in Brawl, Donkey Kong and ROB are much easier to play out in this game, even if both are arguably better characters. Weight increase + smash attack nerfs on DK patched up what essentially allowed DK to win in Brawl, punishing Marth once and nullifying all his hard work by killing him at 60%.
To top it off Marth couldn't kill DK either because of momentum cancelling from his up-b and did not have a punish for it's landing to compensate enough for it (he had too much mobility and running up smash still wouldn't kill him at like 150%+).

Now Marth probably wins, no joke, even early on (well that cargo toss buff may reverse the whole "nullifying all the hard work" part he lost). Countering DK's up-b off stage should kill him from around 90%. Marth had to back air DK in Brawl until he either gave up, died at 230% or altered his recovery angle which allowed us to hit him with down air.

Marth's aerials are also longer range than they were in Brawl for the most part. Well spaced fair isn't losing to ftilt or being shield dropped fsmash/dsmash as easy as he used to.

ROB's Ftilt not being Brawl Ftilt, ROB's back air not being Brawl Back Air. Both of these things were disgustingly hard for Marth to handle. In the long run most felt Marth slightly won in Brawl, and the up throw nerf on ROB definitely didn't help the match up either (grab game is the only thing actually better against Marth now).

Dedede I felt was disadvantaged early on (it was like so one sided on Wifi I had to feel this way), but never have struggled with the match up in person. No more Brawl back air and the aerial range buff. Can still be hard though.

Not truly sure but don't feel are disadvantaged:

-2: ......
-1: ****
Evenish: *****
+1 or something:

* = could be better with dem patches, maybe even in significant ways. Falcon was definitely not a match up I'd opt to play in tournament, although all things considered Marth mauled him a lot of the time, could now be even or maybe our advantage, holy moly. And that jump could apply to many characters IMO.
Marth just flat out beats other fire emblem characters. Maybe Ike is evenish now.

As much as it pains me to say we lose to Ness still.... I think we still do.
He just doesn't match up consistently enough against the strong tools of forward air and dash grab (down throw fairx50 errytime) when we'll likely be forced to approach a lot of the time. We can definitely molest him though (still).

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Everything else I agree with Shaya and I'm overall impressed wtih Ghebs match-up list.

Better then most Marth "mains"

(curious, why does everyone who doesn't use Marth say Falcon wins?)

Ftr I do play Marth quite a bit. He's prolly my second most used character.

I don't really see where the claims are coming from that Marth beats Falcon? If you say it's even now due to patches that's one thing. But in Marth's favor? Not seeing it at all. Sure, Marth may thrive on Falcon's poor disadvantaged state and offstage weakness but in the same hand Falcon can rip a hole into Marth once he's got him in a disadvantaged state and Falcon is quite a potent edgeguarder himself. So the only way that Marth could possibly have the advantage over Falcon is if he beats him in neutral and that simply isn't the case.

 

[Vipermoon]

Oh yeah, standard mii brawler is peace of cake. Guaranteed to die off stage, guaranteed to never be able to land. Glorious.
But Tiny Brawler is a joke of a character in Smash Bros and completely emasculates him.

IMO his even/hard match ups in Brawl, Donkey Kong and ROB are much easier to play out in this game, even if both are arguably better characters. Weight increase + smash attack nerfs on DK patched up what essentially allowed DK to win in Brawl, punishing Marth once and nullifying all his hard work by killing him at 60%.
To top it off Marth couldn't kill DK either because of momentum cancelling from his up-b and did not have a punish for it's landing to compensate enough for it (he had too much mobility and running up smash still wouldn't kill him at like 150%+).

Now Marth probably wins, no joke, even early on (well that cargo toss buff may reverse the whole "nullifying all the hard work" part he lost). Countering DK's up-b off stage should kill him from around 90%. Marth had to back air DK in Brawl until he either gave up, died at 230% or altered his recovery angle which allowed us to hit him with down air.

Marth's aerials are also longer range than they were in Brawl for the most part. Well spaced fair isn't losing to ftilt or being shield dropped fsmash/dsmash as easy as he used to.

ROB's Ftilt not being Brawl Ftilt, ROB's back air not being Brawl Back Air. Both of these things were disgustingly hard for Marth to handle. In the long run most felt Marth slightly won in Brawl, and the up throw nerf on ROB definitely didn't help the match up either (grab game is the only thing actually better against Marth now).

Dedede I felt was disadvantaged early on (it was like so one sided on Wifi I had to feel this way), but never have struggled with the match up in person. No more Brawl back air and the aerial range buff. Can still be hard though.

Not truly sure but don't feel are disadvantaged:

-2: ......
-1: ****
Evenish: *****
+1 or something:

* = could be better with dem patches, maybe even in significant ways. Falcon was definitely not a match up I'd opt to play in tournament, although all things considered Marth mauled him a lot of the time, could now be even or maybe our advantage, holy moly. And that jump could apply to many characters IMO.
Marth just flat out beats other fire emblem characters. Maybe Ike is evenish now.

As much as it pains me to say we lose to Ness still.... I think we still do.
He just doesn't match up consistently enough against the strong tools of forward air and dash grab (down throw fairx50 errytime) when we'll likely be forced to approach a lot of the time. We can definitely molest him though (still).

This is really good. I can see why you placed everyone where they are.

Why do you feel Ganon and Bowser might be disadvantaged? Patience is key with both of them and I find that they are usually easy to beat. Of course, both of those characters can easily turn the tides. Still, they seem to struggle with Marth a bit. Bowser is also one of those Counter edge guard characters too. Could you elaborate on these please?

But yeah I definitely believe Lucario, Falcon, and Ness are at least even.

Could you elaborate on Yoshi? I play at lot of friendlies against a really good Yoshi main here and it feels pretty hard on Marth even with the advice I get and the adapting.

Ftr I do play Marth quite a bit. He's prolly my second most used character.

I don't really see where the claims are coming from that Marth beats Falcon? If you say it's even now due to patches that's one thing. But in Marth's favor? Not seeing it at all. Sure, Marth may thrive on Falcon's poor disadvantaged state and offstage weakness but in the same hand Falcon can rip a hole into Marth once he's got him in a disadvantaged state and Falcon is quite a potent edgeguarder himself. So the only way that Marth could possibly have the advantage over Falcon is if he beats him in neutral and that simply isn't the case.

See that's the thing. Marth can challenge CF decently in neutral but you definitely got the gist of it. It's a weird MU that's for sure.

Edit: It's like a "who's on point at this moment" kind of thing. When the Marth is on point, Falcon simply cannot get in and it leads to off-stage, then death.

Edit 2: sorry, didn't see you mains list, on mobile

 

[Emblem Lord]

Oh, I didn't say Marth wins vs Falcon.

However Marth beating CF in neutral.

Yeah...I can see it.

 

[bc1910]

SH airdodges used to be really good for approaching against Greninja in general, they are still solid, but Ftilt beats them safely now. Up angled Ftilt is required to beat floaty SHADs like Marth's but yeah. Since the Ftilt buff Greninja has had a safe grounded option against SHADs (which can be used out of a pivot).

I actually agree that Greninja has more trouble against Marth's Fair than most. The situation isn't that bleak, though. If it hits his shield, jab punishes it just fine, even grab can do it depending on timing + spacing. Retreating Fair is harder, a tippered one is probably safe, but untippered I'm not so sure. 16 frames of landing lag, Greninja's shieldrop dashgrab hits on frame 16, Marth takes 1 extra frame for spotdodge invincibility to kick in. Whiffing in any way is obviously free to a lot of stuff, easiest punish for instant SH Fair is probably running Usmash, but it's hard to do on reaction. So spacing with Fair is pretty effective against Greninja which is why he finds it harder to deal with than most characters.

I feel like this analysis comes from a dark period in Greninja's meta (early Wii U was his lowest point). I think the MU was pretty much even before, with Greninja's buffs it could probably stretch to 55:45/+1 as Gheb said. Ftilt makes SHADing less free, and the new shurikens make SH Fair spacing harder for Marth because of SHDS. Marth is a lot better overall too, though. Will be interesting to see this MU play out.

@ Shaya Funnily enough you forgot to list Greninja on your MU spread haha.

@ Vipermoon I don't think Marth beats Greninja. Prepatch (before shuriken buff but after Ftilt buff), EL visited our MU thread and said he thought Marth vs Greninja was even, giving some reasoning, and I think he was right. If it was even before, with Greninja getting more meaningful buffs than Marth in this patch, I don't think it would be worse than even now.