Even Sheik is just a bad version of Brawl Sheik tbh.
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Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions
- Thread starter Shaya
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Bouncing fish more than makes up for it though lol.
It's more obvious when you look at Luigi, basically the same character, goes from low mid to top tier because everyone else sucks a lot more.
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Fair point.
Gamegenie222
Space Pheasant Dragon Tactician
I can live with the dair surprisingly I just want a full hitbox on side b and less endlag on blaster for him or
that laser buff that Fox got anything else would be icing on the cake.
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Rashyboy05
Your Average Touhou fan~
Until someone actually abuses that infinite, I don't think anybody will care about Mii Swordfighter at all.
D
Deleted member
Guest
Suddenly Captain Awesum picks up Mii Swordfighter and everyone loses their minds.
Miis are pretty much arbitrarily banned everywhere anyway (not that they should be, but just that nobody has a reason to care at this point)
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
Probably because people are just going to ban them or their customs or whatever... The infinite is more of a f you then an actual buff IMO.
Yonder
Smashboard's 1st Sole Survivor
So Luigi's jab to up B is more lethal than I thought now. I landed it a total of 14/15 times on FG [whiffed against a Fox] yeah I know, online...but I've landed it so much more than last patch that I forgot about D throw to cyclone. From what I've noticed, before Luigi had to be in hugging/touching range for it to work. So jab to Up B didn't really set up properly. Now due to the increased hitbox size, Luigi can be a tiny space away from the opponent. Jab 1 sends the opponent to exactly that space. Therefore, it just sets it right up now. From my experience and findings so far. My connection was good, and I used it against characters like Mario, Jigglypuff, Roy, Marth, Lucina, Bowser, etc etc closing out not one, but both stocks on them when I landed the jab. But I'm going to test this at my local games offline more next week to see if it's just as easy to land there. If so, beware because Luigi will have an unstoppable kill set up. If not...it will make you a FG killer at least!
Man Li Gi
Smash Lord
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- ManLiGi
Guys, I have breaking news on relevant and common MU that I have to drop. It all changed with the update and has changed how the MU is played. I bet you the GFs are all gonna be played like this. It's so serious, that I'm actually on my laptop instead of my phone (that's why there are always a slew of mistypes). So you wonder which MU? I'll tell you.....
v.
Damn what did I tell you? It's such a crucial MU to know as it's so relevant to our meta.
On a serious note I will talk about the MU for real. As you know, Emblem Lord has converted to being Ryu main and is pretty darn good with him if I say so myself and I have DK as my main. I recall Emblem Lord calling shots against DK and we sparred for a bit and from that, I have come here to talk about the MU.
Ryu in general: I don't play the character much myself, but I do know how to play heavies and against heavies (My most used characters are heavies). Many heavies have just bad frame data and because of this fact many are afraid to bust out hitboxes will nilly and thus hide in shield a lot. Take advantage of that and use collarbone breaker to break shields. You don't even have to land it, but just instill the fear of it as then the heavies will then start putting out hitboxes and you punish that with the easiest shoryu of your life. Also R.H is better than B.H in all situations against heavies as it's a looping hitbox, in other words, the heavy has to stay in shield and take it or if they throw out a hitboox, it only blocks 1 hit putting them in a horrible position.
The MU itself. Despite what people may think.....it's not the worst thing in the world. I will still say it's in Ryu's favor, if and only if the shoryu game is on point (which it has to be or else why would you main Ryu and go to tourneys?). Shoryu is particular easy to land on heavies because of their large hurtbox and many of the setups he has works flawlessly on fat boys like DK. So how does DK even stand a chance? Well, Ryu's game and KOs are mainly centralized in if you have a strong FGC inheritance and know how to properly input the controls (no duh). Shoryu is one of those moves that was described and it's often used as the trump card for KOs, yet it so predicatble.
On DK's end, it's not so bad (probs 55:45 Ryu's favor). Of course he can't play footsies with Ryu, but has great vertical setups for Ryu which really can bring DK back into the game. Often times, I found myself outpaced by the barrage of moves that Ryu would be throwing out cuz he can and DK can't. Many of these hitboxes could and would lead to Shoryu. What should you do? Run away and let them throw their Hadoukens. At some point (your judgement and experience) you can actually bair then out of it. Keep playing passively until they feel "forced" into approaching you (probably crossup nair or fair). If with fair, they usually space the part as far as possible so that shield grabs or dash grabs can't reach when they land. If you go in for a grab, prepare for a Shoryu to the face as it's a trap! Instead, go for Hand Slap as it racks up quick 14%and pops them up (sadly has an exploitable 43 frames of end lag that can be punished on hit in low%). Now cross up nair.... the best you can do is keep holding shield as having a frame 8-11 utilt coverage on a move BEHIND DK is too slow for Ryu. Really take the grab and don't do anything there are so many more intricacies and I can go through general words of advice, but I feel like they kinda go out the window if your opponent has a frame 3 invincible move that kills pretty well.
Stages: I feel like this MU is so stage dependent.
Ryu does well on nice flat stages or stages with low ceilings so as to kill way easier. Delfino, Smashville, FD, Dreamland, Castle Seige come to mind for stages good for Ryu in this MU.
DK does well basically on stages where he can land safely or can vertically assault the player (weird that he has short jumps and horizontal based recovery for a vertically based character). BF, Lylat, Duck Hunt are good in this MU. Also DK's hoo ha is ridiculous as it killed Ryu at 88% no rage in T&C.
Stages that don't really change the MU in a lopsided fashion: T&C, Halberd...well pretty much every other stage.
Overall:
Ryu has far more versatility and a great footsie game that should and probably would body other heavies, but since DK has a hoo ha, decent spacing tools and can instill fear with Giant Punch, the MU isn't as nearly one sided as people might it is. As long as Ryu always has Shoryu, DK must be wary of what moves are thrown out as that's stock. If I had to put numbers to it 55:45 Ryu up.
And there you it, the MU that people will see all over in GFs.
@
NachoOfCheese
@Emblem Lord
v.Damn what did I tell you? It's such a crucial MU to know as it's so relevant to our meta.
On a serious note I will talk about the MU for real. As you know, Emblem Lord has converted to being Ryu main and is pretty darn good with him if I say so myself and I have DK as my main. I recall Emblem Lord calling shots against DK and we sparred for a bit and from that, I have come here to talk about the MU.
Ryu in general: I don't play the character much myself, but I do know how to play heavies and against heavies (My most used characters are heavies). Many heavies have just bad frame data and because of this fact many are afraid to bust out hitboxes will nilly and thus hide in shield a lot. Take advantage of that and use collarbone breaker to break shields. You don't even have to land it, but just instill the fear of it as then the heavies will then start putting out hitboxes and you punish that with the easiest shoryu of your life. Also R.H is better than B.H in all situations against heavies as it's a looping hitbox, in other words, the heavy has to stay in shield and take it or if they throw out a hitboox, it only blocks 1 hit putting them in a horrible position.
The MU itself. Despite what people may think.....it's not the worst thing in the world. I will still say it's in Ryu's favor, if and only if the shoryu game is on point (which it has to be or else why would you main Ryu and go to tourneys?). Shoryu is particular easy to land on heavies because of their large hurtbox and many of the setups he has works flawlessly on fat boys like DK. So how does DK even stand a chance? Well, Ryu's game and KOs are mainly centralized in if you have a strong FGC inheritance and know how to properly input the controls (no duh). Shoryu is one of those moves that was described and it's often used as the trump card for KOs, yet it so predicatble.
On DK's end, it's not so bad (probs 55:45 Ryu's favor). Of course he can't play footsies with Ryu, but has great vertical setups for Ryu which really can bring DK back into the game. Often times, I found myself outpaced by the barrage of moves that Ryu would be throwing out cuz he can and DK can't. Many of these hitboxes could and would lead to Shoryu. What should you do? Run away and let them throw their Hadoukens. At some point (your judgement and experience) you can actually bair then out of it. Keep playing passively until they feel "forced" into approaching you (probably crossup nair or fair). If with fair, they usually space the part as far as possible so that shield grabs or dash grabs can't reach when they land. If you go in for a grab, prepare for a Shoryu to the face as it's a trap! Instead, go for Hand Slap as it racks up quick 14%and pops them up (sadly has an exploitable 43 frames of end lag that can be punished on hit in low%). Now cross up nair.... the best you can do is keep holding shield as having a frame 8-11 utilt coverage on a move BEHIND DK is too slow for Ryu. Really take the grab and don't do anything there are so many more intricacies and I can go through general words of advice, but I feel like they kinda go out the window if your opponent has a frame 3 invincible move that kills pretty well.
Stages: I feel like this MU is so stage dependent.
Ryu does well on nice flat stages or stages with low ceilings so as to kill way easier. Delfino, Smashville, FD, Dreamland, Castle Seige come to mind for stages good for Ryu in this MU.
DK does well basically on stages where he can land safely or can vertically assault the player (weird that he has short jumps and horizontal based recovery for a vertically based character). BF, Lylat, Duck Hunt are good in this MU. Also DK's hoo ha is ridiculous as it killed Ryu at 88% no rage in T&C.
Stages that don't really change the MU in a lopsided fashion: T&C, Halberd...well pretty much every other stage.
Overall:
Ryu has far more versatility and a great footsie game that should and probably would body other heavies, but since DK has a hoo ha, decent spacing tools and can instill fear with Giant Punch, the MU isn't as nearly one sided as people might it is. As long as Ryu always has Shoryu, DK must be wary of what moves are thrown out as that's stock. If I had to put numbers to it 55:45 Ryu up.
And there you it, the MU that people will see all over in GFs.
@
NachoOfCheese
@Emblem Lord
NachoOfCheese
Smash Ace
False. Luigi has braindead grab combos in this game along with immense killpower. This most likely would have been the case in Brawl if not for the existence of hitstun canceling. The physics of this game and the removal of hitstun canceling are what make Luigi relevant. The same can be said for Falcon. While the fact that many characters were universally nerfed in transition from a Brawl to Smash 4 does have a part to play in Luigi's sudden jump to the high tier, it isn't simply because everyone was nerfed but him. It's that in conjunction with the game's physics and overall lack of extremely polarizing spacing moves (DDD Bair, Marth Fair, etc).
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
And huge air speed buff Smash 4 gave her more than makes up for it. Ground speed too. But you're right though. Brawl Sheik would do very well in Smash 4. Very well. And it's important to note that there is a big difference between the current Sheik and the game release Sheik.
Yes and the side B, thanks. That's actually a big deal.
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DunnoBro
The Free-est
Yea, even in brawl luigi had good strings/punishes, but the more edgeguard-enabled environment made him unwieldly. (also being an aggressive char in that game was hell)
We'd be relieved, at least things would got by quicker lol
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Blobface
Smash Lord
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- everyone1 (Bob)
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I think everyone's seen enough "infinite's" to know to take them with a grain of salt.
Speed Boost
Smash Apprentice
Or what about the fact that she can combo people all over the stage? That's pretty good last time I checked. I don't think there are any characters that are worse than their brawl counterparts because of the combo/followups oriented gameplay alone. Regardless of whatever nerfed buttons they may have.
That is my humble opinion. Having played very little Brawl I have to look at videos online to refresh my memory, but watching Sheik in Brawl versus how she play in 4, there is no question which character is better in my mind.
Pazx
hoo hah
What's swordfighter's optimal moveset now? 133x? I thought the buffs he got last patch were good (and they probably are more important) but damn this is cool.
TriTails
Smash Lord
I swear I'll dropkick the next guy who says Luigi is braindead. Not only his grab combos but his whole character in general.
The range is still small.
Honestly. Luigi's Fireballs feels clunky now. I miss the old Fireballs...
A non-tiny swordfighter may want slash launcher over chakram. Slash launcher is now 13 frames before the attack comes out, which is very quick.
I don't think the chakram infinite can really happen in an actual match, but I think you probably can chain 2-3 chakrams if you're lucky.
All of swordfighter's upBs have a use now, now that skyward slash actually has some distance. Hero's spin is still probably the best since it snaps quick and has decent distance, but it's not really needed since Usmash is now reliable.
I don't think the chakram infinite can really happen in an actual match, but I think you probably can chain 2-3 chakrams if you're lucky.
All of swordfighter's upBs have a use now, now that skyward slash actually has some distance. Hero's spin is still probably the best since it snaps quick and has decent distance, but it's not really needed since Usmash is now reliable.
Speed Boost
Smash Apprentice
To me 2232 or 1231. The best projectile really is MU dependent, because Gale Strike is so slow. Side 2 is a good movement option and recovery mixup without being as much of a liability as 1. Up 3 is solid all around and easily the best option. Down 2 is basically Marios cape which adds utility if you aren't using Gale Strike. Counter is nice if you are.
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Antonykun
Hero of Many Faces
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X33X
i just cannot decide between the neutral special
wait...
great now i have to play around with slash launcher :/
the portion that is important is MID LEVEL so around the time you can substitute player skill with AT. Alot of characters are "braindead" at this level due to the lack of mobility from both parties
Luigi and Ness come to mind Falcon too because how easy it is to dash grab
point is Luigi is a lot smarter at high levels of play because he has a crippling mobility and shield push flaws
Balgorxz
Smash Journeyman
mii sword definetely has no optimal moveset like brawler.
TriTails
Smash Lord
Not sure how many ATs Luigi actually has though... F-air chaingrab is from D-throw. D-air chaingrab is from D-throw. Half of the characters can only be jab lock'd once, and not sure how people would fall with a tumble. Not even D-tilt helps much because of the increased growth. PP I heard is really hard to do. JC will need some god tier mashings to execute. Fireball -> grab isn't legit.
Someone enlighten me.
Antonykun
Hero of Many Faces
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Swordfighter now has it worse than brawler in that regard
Brawler has to bring Helicopter Kick (in before but Piston Punch is good too) and Feint kick
the only special that is a must have for Swordfiddle is Hero's Spin and even then that's a maybe
all his specials are at least usable have yet to be tested for whats optimal
Luigi player
Smash Master
What helps Luigi the most in Smash4 imo is:
- that dashgrab boost
- hitstun
That's basically it. If you look at Brawl Luigi he looks almost the same as now.
Luigi was a force to be reckoned with in Brawl already. Though without the dashgrab he had such a hard time getting in. If you approach Luigi you could get wrecked, but if you just stay away he can't get in. Run away, space around him, hit him with retreating stuff, hitting his shield, etc, he had soooooooo much trouble appraoching.
And even now he can have troubles getting in as well, people are just not abusing that and don't camp him out as much (though of course it's a bit more difficult).
Also Luigi definitely has more weaknesses than just recovery and his slipperynes (read that in the patch thread). Like getting juggled, getting back down to land. He still has troubles if he gets walled out and camped (he's pretty slow on the ground, and in the air he's like stationary lol, and now he can't spam fireballs as fast anymore as well). His range also isn't too great for most of his stuff.
Of course he's still a great character overall, but people are still overrating him a lot now. He's probably around ~10th in the game. Not sure what the changes will bring, but the fireball lag will make it harder for Luigi to go in, which was always his key problem as well, and now it's even worse...
- that dashgrab boost
- hitstun
That's basically it. If you look at Brawl Luigi he looks almost the same as now.
Luigi was a force to be reckoned with in Brawl already. Though without the dashgrab he had such a hard time getting in. If you approach Luigi you could get wrecked, but if you just stay away he can't get in. Run away, space around him, hit him with retreating stuff, hitting his shield, etc, he had soooooooo much trouble appraoching.
And even now he can have troubles getting in as well, people are just not abusing that and don't camp him out as much (though of course it's a bit more difficult).
Also Luigi definitely has more weaknesses than just recovery and his slipperynes (read that in the patch thread). Like getting juggled, getting back down to land. He still has troubles if he gets walled out and camped (he's pretty slow on the ground, and in the air he's like stationary lol, and now he can't spam fireballs as fast anymore as well). His range also isn't too great for most of his stuff.
Of course he's still a great character overall, but people are still overrating him a lot now. He's probably around ~10th in the game. Not sure what the changes will bring, but the fireball lag will make it harder for Luigi to go in, which was always his key problem as well, and now it's even worse...
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Antonykun
Hero of Many Faces
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oh what i meant to say is that people are not good enough to grasp the importance of a solid mobility and spacing in mid level and consequently use AT (which i tried meaning as anythig that requires tech skill rather than player skill like combos but luigi has a few need to read a di combo which are important to his game plan IIRC)
pretty much luigi is really good at not Highest level of play because he generally loses to really good spacing but even at the highest level of play you don't have the luxury to have perfect spacing let alone mid level play where your dash grab suddenly turns into free damage
TriTails
Smash Lord
Right. Now that I think about it. I picked up Marth to learn spacings.
...I think this is a key knowledge already in this thread.
Antonykun
Hero of Many Faces
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All of samus' blind spots make me cry
Vipermoon
King Marth's most trusted advisor.
But I remember his Dair and Fair being much more laggy than it is now.
TriTails
Smash Lord
That Samus against Falco was like 'DIE MAGGOT!' but Falco reaches 200% and still hasn't died.
But honestly. Mewtwo survived missiles at like 200%.
Samus' F-smash is dodged by just walking to her.
Seriously now.
Brawl Sheik has extremely good frame traps and grab release kill setups, as well as f-tilt chains on most of the cast. She has followups in that game even though followups are much rarer in it.
You can't say that because smash 4 characters can combo that means they're better, they also get combo'd, and we're talking about these characters as if they were in the same smash 4 game engine.
I think you shouldn't talk about Brawl if you haven't played it lol.
Pretty sure Brawl Luigi could do 3 fairs in a short hop?
Also Brawl luigi had legitimate jab cancel > up-b on a few characters, and down-b was better for neutral and recovering.
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TriTails
Smash Lord
I believe Brawl Luigi can do 3 F-airs outta one shorthop because of his SH height was higher and he falls slightly slower there.
...The most shocking thing were the missiles. I honestly didn't know they were that weak in smash 4 lol.
Speed Boost
Smash Apprentice
You are definately right about my Brawl knowledge. Sorry, I misunderstood what yall were saying. I thought you were saying that Brawl Sheik was better in Brawl then Smash 4 Sheik.
I was picturing them facing off playing exactly like they do in their respective games, and I was like...what? This dude is on that good ish.
LancerStaff
Smash Hero
Samus's only hope is if Sakurai does a 180 and decided to abandon FFAs.
Ffamran
The Smooth Devil Mod
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Better reward than Falco's Blaster... Every projectile has better reward than his Blaster.
Yes, let's pin everything on Sakurai and never mention how Sora Ltd., Bandai Namco, and Nintendo are all involved. Sakurai didn't make this game; he, his team, Namco, and Nintendo were all involved. Hell, we're involved too considering the **** that happened involving Diddy, Link, Fox, Pac-Man, Yoshi, and more as we expose glitches, bugs, and **** game design.
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