Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Smog Frog]

i wouldnt call them custom specials. why? you can use them when the custom button is set to off and you give them these specials during the creation process.

 

[Rhus]

Robin's Arcthunder is finally what it needed to be.

Honestly a move that breaks still being sub par by everyone else's standard was insulting beyond reason. Now you get punished hard for challenging his magic and not respecting it.

That's how he should be.

 

[Antonykun]

im kinda waiting for all the custom jank aimed at Chakram so i can say that they are complaining about MII SWORDFIGHTER

 

[Blobface]

Also, can confirm Aerial Wizkick getting more shield damage (10 --> 15). Considering how much trouble Ganon has with shields, this could be a major buff. It's still not clear how much this'll impact him though. If it's as good as it might be, get ready for Ganondorf's unreactable aerial 40 shield damage attack of adventure!

 

[LimitCrown]

Do Ganondorf's custom down special moves have increased shield damage as well, or is the default one the only one that was buffed?

 

[Blobface]

Do Ganondorf's custom down special moves have increased shield damage as well, or is the default one the only one that was buffed?

I haven't tested with Dropkick as much as Wizkick, but from what little I've done it seems to. Not as useful though since Dropkick doesn't do as much % damage. It's likely on Wizard's Assault too but nobody uses Wizard's "Assault".

 

[adom4]

I haven't tested with Dropkick as much as Wizkick, but from what little I've done it seems to. Not as useful though since Dropkick doesn't do as much % damage. It's likely on Wizard's Assault too but nobody uses Wizard's "Assault".

Are you completely sure it does more shield damage?
It already did a ton of shield damage prepatch and i fear it might be placebo for a lot of people who don't play him & now see how much shield damage it does.

 

[bc1910]

Greninja's bad OoS options and not very good frame data are probably too much to allow him to be top tier.

They didn't hold him back at release.

Though we were young and naive, he was pretty overrated at release. Perhaps never really top tier.

Still, his mean frame data is the best it's ever been now. And the shuriken buff captures so much of what made him good at release.

I agree top tier is a stretch, I don't think it's likely but I wouldn't rule it out. My gut instinct says top 15. Incidentally I think you can be top 10 in this game without being top tier, I think there are only 5 or 6 "top" tiers.

 

[Ffamran]

Meanwhile, I'm sitting here wondering why Fox, Greninja, and the Pits' had end lag reduced for their projectiles. I understand Robin's getting reduced and the Pits' weren't reduced that much, but come on, Fox and Greninja? Fox's Blaster already had low end lag, well, relative to most projectiles in this game and Greninja's was fine even if it was average speed. Meanwhile, Falco and his 59 frames of end lag on the ground and 50 in the air and all for a thin laser that does 3% with set knockback.

Anyway, Fox's new jab everyone. Setting up footstools which he probably could have done with his old jab.

@ Shaya working on the patch vid as we speak. but oh my goodness freakin Fox.

 

[Wintropy]

Meanwhile, I'm sitting here wondering why Fox, Greninja, and the Pits' had end lag reduced for their projectiles. I understand Robin's getting reduced and the Pits' weren't reduced that much, but come on, Fox and Greninja? Fox's Blaster already had low end lag, well, relative to most projectiles in this game and Greninja's was fine even if it was average speed. Meanwhile, Falco and his 59 frames of end lag on the ground and 50 in the air and all for a thin laser that does 3% with set knockback.

I'm gonna be honest and say it's hardly even necessary for Pit. If endlag is an issue, fullhop arrows are a thing; it scarcely even matters off-stage when the aim is really to use it a diversion. You never really use arrows in neutral anyway. It's a nice touch, but kinda superfluous if you ask me.

Dark Pit, on the other hand, is fair game. His arrows are pretty risky for a fast and precise projectile.

 

[Blobface]

Are you completely sure it does more shield damage?
It already did a ton of shield damage prepatch and i fear it might be placebo for a lot of people who don't play him & now see how much shield damage it does.

The only reason I'm not 100% sure is there's not any changes recorded in Dant's Data. But shield damage may not appear in his extractions and he might've outright missed it. It clearly does the same shield damage as Reverse Warlock Punch (38) and puts the shield in a position to be broken by an F-tilt, just like RWP. In addition, the kick itself (not the quake) breaks newly regenerated shields after a shield break, which have 30 hp (15 + 15 = 30). It's possible this was some kind of missed change in a previous patch though, since the data I'm going off of (the one that says it has 10 shield damage) is a bit old.

 

[Balgorxz]

Do Ganondorf's custom down special moves have increased shield damage as well, or is the default one the only one that was buffed?

doubt it, I've played a lot of custom ganons in tourneys with dropkick and I don't see too much difference in the shield damage.

 

[FullMoon]

Meanwhile, I'm sitting here wondering why Fox, Greninja, and the Pits' had end lag reduced for their projectiles. I understand Robin's getting reduced and the Pits' weren't reduced that much, but come on, Fox and Greninja? Fox's Blaster already had low end lag, well, relative to most projectiles in this game and Greninja's was fine even if it was average speed. Meanwhile, Falco and his 59 frames of end lag on the ground and 50 in the air and all for a thin laser that does 3% with set knockback.

Anyway, Fox's new jab everyone. Setting up footstools which he probably could have done with his old jab.

It was Greninja's start-up that was reduced, not endlag.

 

[Ffamran]

It was Greninja's start-up that was reduced, not endlag.

Both were reduced. Greninja now fires his uncharged Water Shuriken at frame 20 instead of 25 and can act out of Water Shuriken at frame 46. I gutted most of LordWilliam1234's post, but you can click the little arrow to go to the full post in the patch thread which makes me rage when Falco's Blaster has more end lag than most projectiles now for so little reward... Seething with rage now...

Greninja's uncharged shuriken start-up reduced by 5 frames, 25 -> 20.

Greninja's uncharged shuriken total frames reduced by 5 frames, 50 -> 45.

Greninja's Down Throw total frames reduced, from 49 -> 42.

 

[Pazx]

Both were reduced. Greninja now fires his uncharged Water Shuriken at frame 20 instead of 25 and can act out of Water Shuriken at frame 46. I gutted most of LordWilliam1234's post, but you can click the little arrow to go to the full post in the patch thread which makes me rage when Falco's Blaster has more end lag than most projectiles now for so little reward... Seething with rage now...

The reason you can act out of it earlier is because the start-up was reduced by 5 frames, not the endlag.

 

[Ffamran]

The reason you can act out of it earlier is because the start-up was reduced by 5 frames, not the endlag.

Still, it's technically reduced end lag and startup, right?

 

[Routa]

Still, it's technically reduced end lag and startup, right?

Yes and no

 

[bc1910]

No, the end lag is not reduced. Startup is down by 5 frames hence the total move duration is down by 5 frames. The endlag itself is unchanged.

At any rate, I guess now wouldn't be a good time to tell you that while Falco's sitting there with a 50 frame aerial projectile, Greninja's aerial shuriken clocks in at a cool 38 frames.

 

[Snackss]

Still, it's technically reduced end lag and startup, right?

No. It starts up faster, so it has reduced frames overall.

Greninja needs the shuriken, it's a vital part of him and they nerfed it to hell for 8+ months. Falco is just somebody who's been completely screwed and I don't know when or if they'll get around to fixing him. They didn't know what they were doing when they put him in this game.

 

[Ffamran]

No, the end lag is not reduced. Startup is down by 5 frames hence the total move duration is down by 5 frames. The endlag itself is unchanged.

At any rate, I guess now wouldn't be a good time to tell you that while Falco's sitting there with a 50 frame aerial projectile, Greninja's aerial shuriken clocks in at a cool 38 frames.

Wait... So startup's 5 frames faster, but Greninja can't act until frame 51 even though the animation ends at frame 45? The way I think of it, since the startup was reduced, the total frames were reduced, and therefore, the end lag is reduced as well. It's like a domino effect, right? If it was just strictly end lag reduction, then that's different... My head hurts...

At any rate, I guess now wouldn't be a good time to tell you that while Falco's sitting there with a 50 frame aerial projectile, Greninja's aerial shuriken clocks in at a cool 38 frames.

Do you want me to hurt you?

Screw it, we're removing Falco's Blaster, swapping his Reflector from Down Special to Neutral, and giving him a R.E.D. Kick as his new Down Special since it's just an flying version of Fox's Side Smash. He can now anti-air, recover in a short way, and possibly approach with the R.E.D. Kick now. Reflector Void alone would be a freaking awesome "projectile"... In my dreams...

 

[Snackss]

Greninja can act faster because he doesn't take his sweet time throwing the shuriken like he used to. But if you stand in front of him with your shield up, you'll still have exactly as much time as before to punish him after he throws it.

 

[bc1910]

Wait... So startup's 5 frames faster, but Greninja can't act until frame 51 even though the animation ends at frame 45? The way I think of it, since the startup was reduced, the total frames were reduced, and therefore, the end lag is reduced as well. It's like a domino effect, right? If it was just strictly end lag reduction, then that's different... My head hurts...


Do you want me to hurt you?

Screw it, we're removing Falco's Blaster, swapping his Reflector from Down Special to Neutral, and giving him a R.E.D. Kick as his new Down Special since it's just an flying version of Fox's Side Smash. He can now anti-air, recover in a short way, and possibly approach with the R.E.D. Kick now. Reflector Void alone would be a freaking awesome "projectile"... In my dreams...

Startup is 5 frames faster (before he throws the shuriken) and the frames/animation/whatever after he throws the shuriken, AKA ending lag, has not changed. So he can act sooner (frame 46 vs frame 51) because total move duration is down, but the move has the same amount of lag after the active hitbox, so the ending lag hasn't changed. Just startup and hence total move duration.

But yeah, poor Falco. They're generally not in the habit of buffing projectiles, I think this is the first patch where a whole bunch of projectiles have been buffed, so I can see why it hasn't been touched already besides the first little buff from 3DS (buffed to rapid fire faster I believe). But now that they're actually improving a lot of projectiles I don't see why Falco's wouldn't be close to the top of their list...

 

[Snackss]

Because they balance on the assumption that Falco and Marth weren't completely destroyed as characters compared to how they played in Brawl.

 

[FullMoon]

They didn't hold him back at release.

Though we were young and naive, he was pretty overrated at release. Perhaps never really top tier.

Still, his mean frame data is the best it's ever been now. And the shuriken buff captures so much of what made him good at release.

I agree top tier is a stretch, I don't think it's likely but I wouldn't rule it out. My gut instinct says top 15. Incidentally I think you can be top 10 in this game without being top tier, I think there are only 5 or 6 "top" tiers.

Also Greninja's shurikens are better but they're still not as crazy as they were at release. We can't do things like Charged Shuriken -> Dash Grab if the opponent is shielding the shuriken and there's still a good window of time for an opponent to punish us if we mess up compared to how it was before.

The shurikens are great but they're not as good as it was on release.

I do think Greninja was a bit overhyped at release as the meta was still too young at the time, but even with the current buff he's not as good as he was back then. His shuriken are not as good and he still lacks the god Up-Smash.

He's better but not to the same level as before and his flaws are still present.

Though if Sakurai is nerfing end lag and buffing start-up... Frame 10 Up-Smash pls?

 

[Ffamran]

Startup is 5 frames faster (before he throws the shuriken) and the frames/animation/whatever after he throws the shuriken, AKA ending lag, has not changed. So he can act sooner (frame 46 vs frame 51) because total move duration is down, but the move has the same amount of lag after the active hitbox, so the ending lag hasn't changed. Just startup and hence total move duration.

But yeah, poor Falco. They're generally not in the habit of buffing projectiles, I think this is the first patch where a whole bunch of projectiles have been buffed, so I can see why it hasn't been touched already besides the first little buff from 3DS (buffed to rapid fire faster I believe). But now that they're actually improving a lot of projectiles I don't see why Falco's wouldn't be close to the top of their list...

It's still the same thing... whatever...

Still would be cool for Falco to have a RED Kick just because it looks cool. That and well, in a way, Reflector's a good projectile, but a weird one at that since it's a reflector.

Because they balance on the assumption that Falco and Marth weren't completely destroyed as characters compared to how they played in Brawl.

I'd argue that this patched Marth is better from a character design point than in Brawl, but I'm no Marth expert - that would be Emblem Lord and Shaya. Falco is also a structurally strong character with a really, really unrewarding projectile which he kind of needs with that kind of mobility. From game design standpoint, Brawl Marth, I don't really know, but Brawl Falco was evil.

Samus, however, is one that really needs something since the fact she can combo extremely well, but then there's her somewhat limited kill options, height issue making her Up Smash whiff almost everyone, and other stuff like Side Smash missing at pointblank because apparently, punching doesn't work at close range: https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/52...p4?versionId=RvtHpAvz5vOZ0rxaESiifuY3rq7RDKso. At least Zelda's getting something...

 

[Lavani]

It's still the same thing... whatever...

...except it isn't.

Before, he took 25 frames to throw the shuriken and then couldn't act for 25 frames.

Now, he takes 20 frames to throw the shuriken and then can't act for 25 frames.

 

[Balgorxz]

I'm going to post this here since no one will see it in other places.
I just got how to play 1v1 in tourneymode created by players, each tourney has multiple rooms and the players by default go to the first room, if there are 2 players in a tourney mode room and a third player joins if he leaves then rejoin immediatly he will "banned" from room one and will be waiting in room 2 for players, since there is a lot of rooms in tourneymode called 1v1leaveif2people or stuff like that, most of the people just leave when there are 2 or more players they can create their own artificial 1v1 rooms by getting rejected by default room one, this is made so people don't join all the time and reset the 1:30 timer of the room.

 

[LancerStaff]

So, Pit was on eden's door when it comes to being top tier when this survey was made. Pit was probably the best character to receive the size of buffs he did. The first was taking a few frames off of his arrows, the second was making his Dair KO 22% later. How are these major?

Well, Dair is basically MK's Uair but below him. Combos into itself, but them when it doesn't it goes into Uair and Fair. I'm still crunching the numbers... But it combo'd past 60% before. For a move that SH ACs and has basically no aerial endlag on a character with tons of jumps that's huge.

The arrows... Fun fact: Pit's arrows lose 10 or so frames of endlag when used in the air. Can't shoot until the last arrow's gone, but at the right distance you can shoot an arrow after a double jump and chain them together. Little less of FD is optimal, I believe. Before Pit would fall while chaining, but now? He rises. He can stay in the perfect position where campers can't get him. Pretty sure he forces Sheik to approach, even. Not that that's necessarily a good thing.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Because they balance on the assumption that Falco and Marth weren't completely destroyed as characters compared to how they played in Brawl.

Falco and Marth were overpowered and Marth had infinites.

Your move.

 

[Snackss]

Falco and Marth were overpowered and Marth had infinites.

Your move.

So? Diddy Kong, Pikachu, and Zero Suit were high tier and all of them got, if anything, buffed, with only one of them turning out overpowered. With Marth and Falco, they just nerfed them to oblivion and called it a day.

I didn't play Marth and given how strong safe aerials are in this game, I don't know what they can do other than gradually reducing the endlag on his aerials, which they're doing.

Falco, however, lost absolutely everything. Lingering hitbox aerial (back air), lasers for spacing, a powerful and unique meteor smash. This game doesn't have autocancel projectiles, so it makes sense that they removed it. Instant meteor smash, probably unfair so it was inevitable that they would take it out. But they didn't compensate for them. His new down air doesn't fit his movement or playstyle. His lasers don't put him at any sort of advantage or do anything for him. And without that back air, he doesn't have much of an approach. They badly nerfed his side B. They doubled the startup on his dash attack. Why? At least his aerials got buffed to be above-average, but it's still hard to argue that he's better than "good, at best," or why someone should use him over, for example, Mario or Zero Suit.

 

[Emblem Lord]

What if I told you Nintendo is well aware of how powerful they were and ground them into dust on purpose?

Would it shock you to know that game devs have bias as well?

**** happens. Marth is now more than functional and Falco prolly just needs cooldown on lasers slightly reduced.

 

[Vipermoon]

It's still the same thing... whatever...

Still would be cool for Falco to have a RED Kick just because it looks cool. That and well, in a way, Reflector's a good projectile, but a weird one at that since it's a reflector.


I'd argue that this patched Marth is better from a character design point than in Brawl, but I'm no Marth expert - that would be Emblem Lord and Shaya. Falco is also a structurally strong character with a really, really unrewarding projectile which he kind of needs with that kind of mobility. From game design standpoint, Brawl Marth, I don't really know, but Brawl Falco was evil.

Samus, however, is one that really needs something since the fact she can combo extremely well, but then there's her somewhat limited kill options, height issue making her Up Smash whiff almost everyone, and other stuff like Side Smash missing at pointblank because apparently, punching doesn't work at close range: https://mtc.cdn.vine.co/r/videos/52...p4?versionId=RvtHpAvz5vOZ0rxaESiifuY3rq7RDKso. At least Zelda's getting something...

Marth would be well designed for the most part if he didn't have the s****iest of hitboxes.

S****y hitbox of the week:

Nair 1 landing to Utilt. Utilt misses entirely if you are a bit too close (probably because characters "duck" under Utilt somehow while in hitstun). I do this all the time because of how often I SH air dodge into Nair 1. Best option from there (especially in this patch) is Utilt but Utilt misses so have fun. Even on tall characters like WFT and another Marth.

 

[Rhus]

Falco's design is all over the place. He has lots of really good tools on his kit, but very few fit how he currently moves/plays.

If I was to suffice a guess as to why Falco changes have been minimal, my guess would be they are unsure of which direction to take him. Do you make him more offensive/pressuring like Melee with his excellent jabs/Nair or do they go for a more defensive, spacing Falco ala Brawl due to his Reflector and other decent spacing moves? They might not be sure, because he has aspects of both in his kit right now but his direction is just wonky.

He's kind of thematically confused right now.

 

[Vipermoon]

While they are busy deciding what to do with Falco, giving Falco the same 3 frame buff to lasers they gave to Fox in this same patch wouldn't hurt. But for some reason it did not happen.

100% if he got those 3 frames and a slightly faster Dair this character would be perfect and I wouldn't ask for anything else (not even air speed for the bird).

 

[Shaya]

I've got pages to catch up with but this is HUGE:

ALL CHARACTERS HAVE HAD THEIR ROLL AND SPOT DODGE INVINCIBILITY DURATIONS REDUCED BY ONE FRAME.

AIR DODGES BY THREE FRAMES NEXT PATCH HOPEFULNESS PLEASE

 

[FullMoon]

Does that really affect character all that much though?

 

[Smog Frog]

got bodied that much harder then

 

[Nobie]

I wonder if the roll and dodge changes are to make For Glory lag less of a factor. Also, is it really universal? Like did Mewtwo and Samus get affected by it too?

 

[Shaya]

Well, most rolls were around 11 frames cooldown before, now 12 frames.
But it also means that they're actually willing to touch some of this stuff everyone hates.

Like, I wouldn't have expected invincibility values to be altered on anyone after all this time. Now? yea boi yeaaaaah

Rolls were really good, even offline. It adds up.
But it will have a much bigger impact on wifi, sanity meter going places positive~

 

[Ghostbone]

So? Diddy Kong, Pikachu, and Zero Suit were high tier and all of them got, if anything, buffed, with only one of them turning out overpowered. With Marth and Falco, they just nerfed them to oblivion and called it a day.

All 3 of them were nerfed from Brawl.

Just because in comparison to the rest of the cast they're better, doesn't mean they're not worse than their Brawl incarnations. (Diddy with two bananas, glide tossing, brawl peanuts etc. would make Sheik look free)