Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Zelder]

The shadow of Brawl remains cast...

 

[Nocally]

I knew of K Prime, but I wasn't aware any of these guys were getting the kind of results that proved Pika to be as high as he was. But I do take your point.

What about Anther?, Don't forget him!

 

[meleebrawler]

can this be done at % that kills?

The bury would prevent giant punch from killing at percents it normally would, but you could perhaps try to time an upsmash
or uair as they jump out.

 

[Yikarur]

Future of Sheik is using dair as a landing tool when someone misses with an aerial, just saying. The disjoint is huge and the landing lag is tolerable, if someone overextends even slightly when juggling sheik, it's free.

Sheiks dair does not have any disjoint.

 

[Dabuz]

Sheiks dair does not have any disjoint.

*Shrugs* Then it just be the speed at which is comes down. Still able to hit people clean for whiffing attacks.

 

[Luco]

Going back to the discussion a few pages ago (sorry I forgot to respond to it earlier) but @ Speed Boost you mentioned that you thought Diddy was a top 5 character over Sonic. I'm interested in your reasoning (What are Diddy's bad/dominant MUs vs Sonic's bad/dominant MUs, if you know some of them? I mean I know Sonic has ZSS but anyone else in particular other than Sheik?)

Also a thought I had - Sheik does truly seem to beat or go even with everyone else in the cast (seemingly to a much lesser extent than Brawl MK), yet every other top tier seems to have at least 1 or 2 other losing MUs. If Sheik had a couple losing (if slightly) MUs, would a) the game be noticably more balanced? And b) Would Sheik stop being the best character in the game?

Finally: What does everyone here think are their character's best and worst MU?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

can this be done at % that kills?

No the Dtilt stops tripping at like 60

 

[wedl!!]

There's actually nothing decently fast about Lucas's 15 frame bair.

i was talking about lucario, but that's only relative to his other moves.

also the post i was talking about was referring to dairs WHOOPS

also yea guys theres this character her name is peach her dair does 11 damage and combos into a ton of her kit

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Finally: What does everyone here think are their character's best and worst MU?

I will fight Sheik with Shulk any day of the week if it means I don't have to fight Fox anymore. Sonic doesn't sound fun either but I've actually fought Fox in tournament before and it was pretty awful. EDIT: Oh yeah this might just be bad matchup knowledge but ROB's kick my Shulk's butt REAL good.

As for best...I dunno if I could peg anyone specifically. I imagine any character who has issues with disjoint and isn't quick enough to take advantage of Shulk's poor CQC.

 

[Ikes]

The bury would prevent giant punch from killing at percents it normally would, but you could perhaps try to time an upsmash
or uair as they jump out.

even a fully charged giant punch at around 140? that's kinda lame but the combo itself still has a lot of merit

 

[Luco]

No the Dtilt stops tripping at like 60

Doesn't the 10-wind punch kill before then?

EDIT: I'm a derp and can't read, I didn't know burying reduced KB against them while they're in the ground. :O

 

[Nu~]

I

As for best...I dunno if I could peg anyone specifically. I imagine any character who has issues with disjoint and isn't quick enough to take advantage of Shulk's poor CQC.

Luigi and Falco?

Unless frame data is included in that overall quickness

 

[wedl!!]

Finally: What does everyone here think are their character's best and worst MU?

i love fighting and gives me a hernia (as )

give me any day, i won't take ()

i dont know too much about 's mus but ill take anyone that isn't

is good against everyone except for lol (maybe too, although not as bad)

 

[RayNoire]

Mewtwo's best matchup might be Little Mac. Dtilt and Fair puts Mac offstage quickly, and Dtilt safely snipes his Up-B for a guaranteed Fair kill if he misses the ledge snap. We can also reset to neutral easily, which is huge.

Mario is Mewtwo's worst MU, with Fox a close second. We can't combo Fox at all due to his fast-falling and we die to jab, while Mario just invalidates us in every possible way.

 

[Ikes]

Finally: What does everyone here think are their character's best and worst MU?

Best:

for Tink , probably someone that's combo food. For overall biggest disposition for tink, it's probably DK, or Bowser since they're combo food for him, but for the one thats most impactful to his meta, Probably Luigi, having a good matchup against such a high tier is pretty important

Lucas' best matchup is probably someone like Ryu who has a very hard time getting through his wall of PK fires and has a big hurtbox/is slow enough to be easily hit by sweetspot fair.

for Luigi, basically anyone thats not above him on the tier list bar mega man and villager

Worst:

for Tink, I'd say Rosalina

Lucas is hard to say, probably some harsh rushdown like Fox

Luigi is probably Mega Man though someone else might be worse

 

[hypersonicJD]

I also really really hate R.O.B. So many people say that R.O.B isn't that bad for Sonic. But I think he actually is a counter to him. It's just so god damn stupid to have those Gyros and Lasers. It's too much for Sonic to get close to R.O.B and actually kick his ass.

 

[Nu~]

Best:
Both have trouble getting over the trampoline and have to play Pac-Man's game. Their entire neutral is warped for the worst.

Worst:
Too safe. Too fast.
It's very hard to keep her out or trap her when she's slapping us repeatedly with Fair.

 

[warionumbah2]

Best:

Worst:

Wait....BestWorst

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Luigi and Falco?

Unless frame data is included in that overall quickness

Those guys are basically "if they get in they win because Shulk is tall combo bait. Otherwise he walls the frick out of them." This is more extreme for Luigi than Falco since Luigi has crazier combos but his traction makes Shulk's moves safer, especially in Buster. I'd hazard a guess that among the high tier matchups Luigi would be one of Shulk's easier ones assuming he can space well enough to not be taken on Mr. Luigi's wild ride, though I haven't faced many high level Luigis to confirm this.

 

[Smog Frog]

is a giant pain in the ass for . is her entire character balance based on the fact that she has a bad grab? then why couldnt be that good in every other way? its confusing and infuriating that she got special treatment based on the fact she's "limited" by her bad grab(even though there are worse in the game...)

also isnt that bad. its as simple as holding shield on gyro and laser. or better yet, dash attacking the gyro on reaction to startup so that he gets popped up and you have the gyro.(if the laser and gyro are your main problem)

 

[Emblem Lord]

Everyone beats Ryu.

Till his desire to win overcomes him and slaps em with dat metsu shoryuken.

 

[ShortcutButton]

also the post i was talking about was referring to dairs WHOOPS

Kek, sorry, I made that more obvious after your post.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

i was talking about lucario, but that's only relative to his other moves.

also the post i was talking about was referring to dairs WHOOPS

also yea guys theres this character her name is peach her dair does 11 damage and combos into a ton of her kit

That's not any better Lucario's bair is 16 frames.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Best match-ups for Sonic: He can't do anything to Sonic since Sonic has multi-hitting attacks. So his armor attacks don't matter that much, he has a hard time landing thanks to Sonic's good edgeguarding and stage control, But Sonic can't sleep on this match-up though. It's easy when you know when to stop attacking and getting Little Mac offstage. No one can sleep on Little Mac.

You're too slow! Donkey kong it's just combo food for Spin Dash, Up Air, Up Throw into Spring and Up Air and many other Sonic combos, he doesn't have a quick get off me attack to get rid of Sonic's pressure and he isn't the best at recovering from the stage.

Lucario is pretty easy to beat. Since Sonic doesn't give him the chance to use his aura, Sonic can kill Lucario fairly easily thanks to Pivot F-Smash and Up Air strings. Also Back Throw helps even with it's nerfs.

Some Luigi mains may hate me for this...

Yes. I'm this crazy. For me, Luigi isn't a treat at all. Sonic can block very easily Luigi's Fireballs, can get out of Luigi's combos thanks to spring and Sonic's edgeguard game it's still good againts Luigi. Also Sonic gains more stage advantage thanks to Down Throw and Back Throw.

Worst: Too safe, needles are too much pressure, can't keep up with Sheik's attacks because she has so many good tools and they are so fast. Although Sonic can win this match-up if he's in his toes and always moving around. Dodging Needles also helps a lot. I don't know if any Sheik main can agree with me though. I really can see Sonic winning this match-up but only if the Sonic main really puts his heart on the fight.

She's basically anti-Sonic. Many good attacks, tether grab can really mest up Sonic's speed if he's running towards the grab, Z-air is also good for keeping Sonic at bay, and Down B it's godlike. She really is amazing and Sonic just can't compete with her attacks and damage. This is still winnable though. But it's even worse than Sheik.

Mario isn't a bad match-up for Sonic at all. I think I actually putted Mario in here because besides Pikachu, he's the only character that we are so damn even againts him, that it's really hard for him to win, or too hard for us to win. This match-up can really go in Mario's or Sonic's favor. A single mistake can mean death. That's why I consider this match-up so important and hard, Mario can wall Sonic with Fireballs and just get him in Up Tilt/Up Air juggles. But we can also do our bread and butter to Mario easily and kill him. It's really a hard match-up since he has the tools to demolish Sonic, but Sonic has his tools to take him down. I hope someone agrees with me at least in this one.

 

[wedl!!]

relative to his other moves, like i said. his frame data is so poor it makes a frame 18 move look decently fast

 

[TriTails]

Those guys are basically "if they get in they win because Shulk is tall combo bait. Otherwise he walls the frick out of them." This is more extreme for Luigi than Falco since Luigi has crazier combos but his traction makes Shulk's moves safer, especially in Buster. I'd hazard a guess that among the high tier matchups Luigi would be one of Shulk's easier ones assuming he can space well enough to not be taken on Mr. Luigi's wild ride, though I haven't faced many high level Luigis to confirm this.

As long as you aren't running to disjoints (Lol FF N-air) and use Fireballs properly the MU is manageable.

 

[Speed Boost]

Going back to the discussion a few pages ago (sorry I forgot to respond to it earlier) but @ Speed Boost you mentioned that you thought Diddy was a top 5 character over Sonic. I'm interested in your reasoning (What are Diddy's bad/dominant MUs vs Sonic's bad/dominant MUs, if you know some of them? I mean I know Sonic has ZSS but anyone else in particular other than Sheik?)

Also a thought I had - Sheik does truly seem to beat or go even with everyone else in the cast (seemingly to a much lesser extent than Brawl MK), yet every other top tier seems to have at least 1 or 2 other losing MUs. If Sheik had a couple losing (if slightly) MUs, would a) the game be noticably more balanced? And b) Would Sheik stop being the best character in the game?

Finally: What does everyone here think are their character's best and worst MU?

Actually I asked @ Dabuz if the thought Diddy was top 5 and he basically said he is in the group of 4-6 characters after Sheik and ZSS that could be considered top 5. Those characters where Rosalina, Diddy, Fox, Sonic, Ness, and Pikachu I believe.

 

[Speed Boost]

is a giant pain in the *** for . is her entire character balance based on the fact that she has a bad grab? then why couldnt be that good in every other way? its confusing and infuriating that she got special treatment based on the fact she's "limited" by her bad grab(even though there are worse in the game...)

also isnt that bad. its as simple as holding shield on gyro and laser. or better yet, dash attacking the gyro on reaction to startup so that he gets popped up and you have the gyro.(if the laser and gyro are your main problem)

I don't think they decided to compensate for ZSS's bad grab by making everything else amazing, but the other way around. They decided they wanted to make her and amazing aerial combo character, and balanced her with a sub par grab.

They aren't going to approach every character with the mindset of making them the best they can, because the undoubtably want to have good characters, average ones and below average too.

Their plan is to keep the gap between the best and the worst as small as you can, while still achieving unique design and balance. At least it appears that is their plan, anyway.

 

[FullMoon]

Best MU:

Worst MU:

I remember there was one time I was playing against some guy on Anther's and he counterpicked my Greninja with Jigglypuff in game 2. I dominated the fight so bad he SD'd at the last stock and basically said "Jigglypuff was a mistake".

 

[Mario766]

Ike's worst MU is Sheik.

Ike's best MU is hell if I know. Ike does well against a lot of the cast after the buffs, but he requires good fundamentals to do well against these characters. No character really does bad against an Ike that runs around spamming high lag moves.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ike's worst MU is Sheik.

Ike's best MU is hell if I know. Ike does well against a lot of the cast after the buffs, but he requires good fundamentals to do well against these characters. No character really does bad against an Ike that runs around spamming high lag moves.

Pretty much this.

Sheik is the only one we all uniformly agree is not good but she's hopefully getting the nerf hammer possibly as soon as tomorrow which will make the MU easier (even then right now Sheik is still manageable, just really annoying). Beyond that, ZSS and Rosalina both have higher level Ike mains saying they're completely manageable (or in our favour in the case of Rosalina), Sonic almost all of us agree is even or like 45-55 at absolute worse with several thinking its slightly in our favour... Diddy is around even, etc

I don't know if Ike absolutely stomps anyone outside of idk maybe Bowser? Most heavies generally have good tools so even though we juggle them to death they don't get absolutely destroyed. And then light characters generally have good ways to annoy Ike which again prevents us from crushing anyone. Probably have a long list of 60:40s.

I'll just say Mewtwo for now because long disjointed range + extremely powerful moves vs his lightweight and not nearly as disjointed range.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Best MU:

I remember there was one time I was playing against some guy on Anther's and he counterpicked my Greninja with Jigglypuff in game 2. I dominated the fight so bad he SD'd at the last stock and basically said "Jigglypuff was a mistake".

Really? As cynical as I am about Jigglypuff, I can't imagine it being so bad. I don't think her pokes are terribly unsafe against Greninja, and she's solid at threatening his landings.

 

[Luco]

I'm really loving that this discussion took off. At this point in the meta I can't say for Lucas, but in Ness' case:

Worst MU: (if only by a little bit, might end up being the hardest once Ness players get better at the Rosa MU, and Ness doesn't have too many losing MUs so don't be surprised by this pick)

Best MU: I can see either or in this boat. Unless there's someone I'm missing.


I do find it curious that no-one has mentioned yet as one of their best MUs.

 

[Man Li Gi]

@ NachoOfCheese
Uh, it depends on how slow your opponent mashes buttons. Also, I'm kinda conservative with my usage of Giant punch, so I wouldn't do that. I mean, it was possible in Brawl too (where burying opponents was pretty good in) and most DKs shied away from it as it was major loss of SA. Dtilt is average move, but on DK, it's a godsend........at early, real early percents. Since it does less damage and push back and has gaps, i find myself more reluctant to use the move than before. Don't get me wrong, it still is a good move (don't think they suddenly have given a disjoint) but I wish it was more like Hugo's hand poke from street fighter. The reason being, it FULLY extends his arms and retracts meaning that it spaces without leaving his hurtbox extended.

 

[FullMoon]

Really? As cynical as I am about Jigglypuff, I can't imagine it being so bad. I don't think her pokes are terribly unsafe against Greninja, and she's solid at threatening his landings.

The MU is not that terrible really, but Greninja's Up-Smash and Up-Tilt (which leads into Up-Air) are both super threatening for Jigglypuff and he has the movement to chase her around while she's frequently zipping in the perfect position to be hit by them (less so for up-tilt). He has better range and also disjoints that keep her out and he's great recovery means it's very unlikely for Jigglypuff to edgeguard him consistently and edgeguarding is one of the things Jigglypuff excels at.

She's not much of a threat really, the most dangerous things she has are Rest and B-Air and even though Greninja's OoS options are bad, shielding is still very good against her especially when she gets very little out of her throws.

The main saving grace is that Jigglypuff is one of the few characters Greninja can't really edgeguard all that well. Not with Hydro Pump at least. Rest can get her early kills but Greninja is going to get those on her regularly.

There's just a lot of things that go against her in this MU and very few that go in her way.

I personally place the MU at the 65:35 range and that's the only MU I think Greninja has that kind of advantage on someone. The rest are all small advantages at best.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I do find it curious that no-one has mentioned yet as one of their best MUs.

She has a much weaker but still existent Ganondorf style "If you mess up she can kill you" effect. And a pretty decent recovery.

 

[Smog Frog]

gets more out of throws than you might think. on top of having a fast 3% pummel, they all do 10% and offer a positional advantage. she gets more out of a positional advantage than other characters(mainly due to juggles and an amazing offstage game)

it may be subpar overall but its alot for not having a combo out of a throw.

 

[Luco]

She has a much weaker but still existent Ganondorf style "If you mess up she can kill you" effect. And a pretty decent recovery.

Of course, but even Ganon has his fair share of 65:35s in the top tiers (Sheik and I can't remember who the other is, but a Ganny main would know). I'd expect the worst character in the game (most likely) to have a hard hard counter in there, but I understand that having a whole host of 60:40s might be worse than having a couple 70:30s in the long run.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Thought the update is supposed to happen tomorrow........I'm apparently getting it right now.

 

[FullMoon]

Of course, but even Ganon has his fair share of 65:35s in the top tiers (Sheik and I can't remember who the other is, but a Ganny main would know). I'd expect the worst character in the game (most likely) to have a hard hard counter in there, but I understand that having a whole host of 60:40s might be worse than having a couple 70:30s in the long run.

To be fair Zelda is more mobile and has a much better recovery than Ganon, while also having a reflector (that also his invencibility frames on it) for projectile MUs, so she's not as exploitable.

Zelda still needs to be very precise with her moves in order to get any super early kills and if she misses she gets punished pretty hard, Ganondorf is at least consistent in his power.

gets more out of throws than you might think. on top of having a fast 3% pummel, they all do 10% and offer a positional advantage. she gets more out of a positional advantage than other characters(mainly due to juggles and an amazing offstage game)

it may be subpar overall but its alot for not having a combo out of a throw.

Getting high damage from throws is a bit of a double-edged sword for her though. Rage really, really messes her up and since her throws won't be killing very often so that can let the opponent survive to high %s while also being able to kill her even sooner.

Positional advantage is good though, I won't deny that.