Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Dre89]

Top players didn't even use customs. ESAM did, Sheiks either used 2111 or 1111. Most people practiced normal moves unless it was DK, Wii Fit or Villager because they could abuse really strong moves.

DK's regular upb is just as good now as the custom one anyway, if not better.

 

[Pazzo.]

Besides mobility issues, Roy's Neutral Special is much more versatile than Ike's.

Ike's Eruption is superior at edge guarding, but heaven forbid you throw it out in the neutral.

 

[teddystalin]

Besides mobility issues, Roy's Neutral Special is much more versatile than Ike's.

Ike's Eruption is superior at edge guarding, but heaven forbid you throw it out in the neutral.

Yes, heaven forbid you use a move for something it's not at all intended for. It's one of the best on-stage edgeguarding tools in the game; who cares if it's not good in neutral?

 

[Swoops]

If we want to bring up the negligible mobility difference, a case could probably be made on the damage/power argument.


Jabs 11%
Dash Attack 14%
FTilt 12.5%
UTilt 14%
DTilt 8%
NAir 9%
FAir 12%
BAir 14%
UAir 11%


Jab 7.5%
Dash Attack 13%
FTilt 12.5%
UTilt 12%
DTilt 11%
NAir 14.5%
FAir 11%
BAir 12%
UAir 9%

I went with staple moves to keep it simple. Now obviously some of this is sweet spot only, but there a lot more asterisks. For example Roy gets more damage post-jab and post-NAir whether it be sweet or sour. Also, Ike gets more off of DTilt and NAir.

The point being that I could claim that the damage differential is negligible. Power/knockback definitely leans towards Ike in the single hit category, but Roy's power is very serviceable to his overall kit -- in the same way that Ike's mobility is very serviceable to his kit.

Keep in mind guys I wasn't trying to get into a sword swinging match in here, just pointing out it's probably more of a wash than you'd think.

 

[Mario766]

Flare blade isn't exactly a neutral tool either.


Irrelevant

 

[the king of murder]

You can use Eruption for Airdodge/Spotdodge traps because of the lingering frames. Fun stuff.

The only thing you can compare about Ike and Roy is their reward, in which Ike has obviously the edge. Other than that they are different as night and day. Roy is more footsies oriented than Ike and he handles a lot of situations different as well(Ike wants to space you out, Roy wants to get in). They are obviously better than the other in what they are designed to be.

Why are we comparing these two? I guess spiky haired, fire swordsman rivalry.

 

[Mario766]

Ike gets more off grabs, off N-Air, and even up-air. His damage on hit is better except for N-Air and D-Tilt, but our D-Tilt is better for strings/combos as it true combos into B-Air at all percents, for 22 percent, and into F-Air at mid percents for 20 percent. It's also longer range, meaning it's easier to space and out-range characters.

You're not taking in other factors

Roy's sweet spot is at the hilt, so he has to get close to do his major damage/kill power. That's UNsafe. His sour spots are also less safe after the patch, like Marth and non-tippers.

Roy gets less off an attack because he doesn't get guaranteed combos. He gets reward off a grab, at low-mid percents but after that he gets nothing guaranteed. He has sour spot N-Air and sour spot up-air to start kill confirms, but he doesn't have a reliable grab kill option like Ike does.

Roy moves faster, but his dash is lightyears worse than Ike. He falls faster so he's combo weight for a mid weight, like Fox. That's sometimes good, sometimes bad.

Did you also think about his recovery and edgeguarding? Because they are bad both ways, unlike Ike who has two good recovery options AND can edgeguard very effectively.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Mobility is always important in smash. Period. Endgame. Checkmate. If I listed all the top characters and all the bottom characters in every smash title, there would be one very common thread: High mobility characters are generally at the top, and low mobility characters are generally at the bottom. There are rare cases but the evidence overwhelmingly points to that conclusion.

Again, this isn't about underrating Ike or placing him above/below Roy on a tier list. Ike is a significant threat in this game and definitely a well balanced, fun character. However, saying that mobility is a minuscule thing to give up is missing the point of the Smash series entirely :/

Sorry, I should have said the difference between their mobilities isn't important. Ike has all the mobility he needs to be a far better character than Roy because of all the things people keep saying

Endgame!

 

[san.]

I think it's too hasty to call Ike far better than Roy when Roy needs to see some more development. Low FAF on fair, horizontally-oriented combos with throws and nair, etc. lends itself to quite a bit of growing room. Roy also has more attacks he can throw out.

Some of his weaknesses includes
-Lack of aerial kill moves. Roy can really only kill near the ground. Bair just isn't strong enough to kill very easily, and it's a little slow.
-dash->shield prevents easy punishes. Roy has to punish and space around more meticulously than he should.
-often being forced to upB to recover with limited ways to adjust the timing. The upB itself is pretty decent in a vacuum, but he has to use it at pretty disadvantageous angels sometimes.
-Poor physics for throw combos that can actually confirm a kill.

These are my observations. Roy's meta may have advanced to get around a lot of these things, but I haven't seen much of him for quite a few months.

 

[TheJolteon]

What about Olimar? I have almost never heard good things about Olimar. I know players Dabuz and cocoa ( I think. It might be Choco IDK) excist but the character itself doesn't place highly. Thoughts?

 

[-RedX-]

Bu... whu... wha... how... whut?

Walk: 23-25th
Run: 9th
Air speed: 3rd
Fall speed: 5-8th


Walk: 47th
Run: 34-39th
Air speed: 18-20th
Fall speed: 14-17th

These differences are quite noticeable. I don't know where you got the idea that the mobility difference is negligible.

Minuscule might have been a poor word to use there. lol
What I mean is that Ike's mobility is good enough combined with his moveset is something to look at if people are gonna compare him to Roy. Roy's weaknesses are somewhat more abusable than Ike's and Roy's reward is generally considered to be worse than Ike's.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Spoiler

Category: Top Tier
Top Tier characters show the most potential and tournament results out of any character within the game, and have relatively good play styles that allow them to rise above others. They have low-risk, high reward, great advantage and disadvantage.

Sub-Category: S-Tier
Characters:

Sub-Category: A-Tier
Characters:

Category: High Tier
High Tier Characters show extraordinary potential and tournament results, and have good play styles that help them rise high. They have low or high risk, high reward, great advantage and disadvantage.

Sub-Category: B-Tier
Characters:

Sub-Category: C-Tier
Characters:

Category: Middle Tier
Middle Tier Characters show amazing potential and/or tournament results, and have decent play styles that can help them be viable. They have low or high risk and reward, good advantage and disadvantage, as well as are good in terms of balance.

Sub-Category: D-Tier
Characters:

Sub-Category: E-Tier
Characters:

Category: Low Tier
Low Tier Characters can still show potential and tournament results, but they have a harder time than other characters to even get there in the first place due to them being harder to use initially. They have medium to high risk and reward, good advantage and disadvantage, and are good for pocket characters.

Sub-Category: F-Tier
Characters:

Sub-Category: G-Tier
Characters:

Category: Low Tier II
Low Tier II Characters (this isn't actually bottom tier) show small potential and tournament results, and even have an extremely hard time than other characters do in finding results, but they can. They have high risk and moderate reward, average advantage and low disadvantage, and you better pick a great secondary.

Sub-Category: H-Tier
Characters:

Sub-Category: I-Tier
Characters:

Category: Bottom 5
The Bottom 5 are characters who show the worst potential out of any single character in the game, and have the hardest time to even get to where they can win. They have high risk, low reward most of the time, low advantage and bad disadvantage, and it's recommended to always pick a secondary that's of a higher tier.

Sub-Category: J-Tier
Characters:

Sub-Category: Z-Tier
Characters:

Well I did say I'd Judge your tier list so here it goes. Even though at point I don't it matters now since everyone is at a different subject I have to stick with what I said.

Before I start I have one question to ask.

Does this tier list include customs?

Cause it seems Villager and Mii brawler seem to be placed rather high but then again palutena is ranked at bottom tier so my guess is it's probably not.

Anyways let at least tell what you got right..

dark pit and pit are in the exact same tier and aren't a tier apart.

Ike is above roy at least I hope he is.

You managed to change greninja from low tier to mid. Seriously Greninja being low tier was probably my biggest problem with this tier list.

And you also managed to get wii fit trainer out of negligible tier to low.

Now with the cons.

Well for starters you have ness in top 5. Look I'll be honest with you I too thought at one point that ness should be considered top 5 in the game. However my view has changed overtime. I mean you have the awful rosaluma matchup which is considered by many to be one of the most one sided matchups in the game. Not to mention ness hasn't been making waves in tournaments as of late. I mean you have the ZSS/Pikachu/Metaknight/Ryu hype going on right now thanks to the shield stun change. And fox is now starting to be a really popular character in tournaments. Also I'm pretty sure most people in this thread don't see ness as a top 5 either.

Another problem I see with this tier list is villager and luigi being top 10 in the game. First off why the hell is villager a top tier? I mean if this tier list includes customs then find I can accept this. But it doesn't which to me is a big problem. I mean the dude cannot fair well against character's with good cqc. I mean rushdown character's just eat this little guy up for brunch. The only reason why I think you could've put this character in top 10 is because of ranai. I mean Ranai has a beastly villager and it goes without saying but that's not enough to really put villager as a top 10 threat. Maybe in japan it could since japans meta game is more camp based but not in america where were all about aggression.

As for luigi.. Well all I can say is I'm pretty sure most don't see him as a top 10 character after the down throw nerf. He's top 15 at best.

As for pacman being a high tier.. I'm pretty sure that's unlikely at this point. I mean abadango who's considered by many to be one of the best pacman mains if not the best pacman main in sm4sh. However he recently dropped out pacman in favor of metaknight. Not to mention chef pac oh wait I'm sorry let me rephrase that Koolaid has recently switched to mario. So seeing pac hang with the likes of falcon, yoshi, and diddy seems really off.


Why is lucario low tier? I thought it was widely agreed upon in this thread that lucario is a high mid tier character. Even though he only relies on gimmicks.

I'm not trying to be that guy but I smell some character bias up in this tier list. I mean I can accept link being mid tier but ganondorf? I understand why you think ganondorfs mid tier but I just can't agree with it. I mean he's too slow and he's combo food. Those two things themselves make a bad combination.

and finally jigglypuff should be higher then kirby

In melee and only melee. Any other game having jigglypuff higher then kirby is a crime and smash 4 is no exception. I mean Puff is basically a character who needs to outplay her opponent in order to win a match. Her oos options are ****, she can't handle pressure of any kind, her approaches/spacing options are predictable as ****, and she's the lightest character in the game. Seriously all this character has going for her is her fair of pains. Yeah kirby maybe slow and his approach options are rather poor but man can he combo the crap out of you. I mean getting up tilted by kirby as fox is not a fun experience. You know what I'm pretty sure even mewtwo is better then jigglypuff in this game

Changes..

Ness should be in A tier

Sonic should be in S tier

Diddy and Ryu should be in A tier

Luigi should be in B tier

Metaknight should be placed in B tier

Villager should be in C tier

Pac man should be in D tier

move roy to E tier

Lucario should be in E tier

Either ditch the sub categories or add a high mid/low mid colum

move ganon to F tier

And Jigglypuff should switches places with Kirby and then switch places again with mewtwo

 

[Ffamran]

Roy moves faster, but his dash is lightyears worse than Ike. He falls faster so he's combo weight for a mid weight, like Fox. That's sometimes good, sometimes bad.

The nitpicker returns! Fox isn't a middleweight; he's a lightweight. Carry on, everyone.

What about Olimar? I have almost never heard good things about Olimar. I know players Dabuz and cocoa ( I think. It might be Choco IDK) excist but the character itself doesn't place highly. Thoughts?

Greenbeast places well with Olimar in Chicago and so does Nom in Michigan... except Nom switched to Fox or Falco. Also, SoCal has Angbad and Rich Brown as notable Olimar players while NorCal has Soulimar and someone else I forgot. Olimar's doing fine. I don't know much about him, though.

Also, I agree with San saying we shouldn't be too hasty with saying Ike is a better Roy not just because of differing developments, but also the fact they don't really play like each other. Saying Ike is a better Roy is like saying Fox is a better Falco, Rosalina is a better Zelda, or Roy is a better Marth. Does Ike have an edge on Roy? Yes, but Roy has an edge on Ike too.

 

[Pyr]

Don't know much about Ike and Roy, but this conversation is interesting. One thing that hasn't really been gone into is their respective disadvantage states and how they can exit that state when in it. I think that plays a large role, too, so what are more knowledgeable peoples' thoughts on their disadvantage compared to each other?

 

[Pazzo.]

Yes, heaven forbid you use a move for something it's not at all intended for. It's one of the best on-stage edgeguarding tools in the game; who cares if it's not good in neutral?

You make it sound like Roy's Neutral special (name...?) isn't being compared.

The OP compared both Roy and Ike's neutral's uses.

Please try again.

 

[Y2Kay]

Can we talk about Kirby next? I always thought of him as a solid mid tier character but all these tier list have him in bottom tier.

 

[TurboLink]

I thought Roy had like two Sweet spots. Am I missing something?

 

[TDK]

I thought Roy had like two Sweet spots. Am I missing something?

All of Roy's attacks have a sweet spot at the base of the sword that does more damage, and the middle and the tip of his sword is a sourspot that does very little damage.

 

[Zannabluke]

kirby is another of those "characters with untapped potential" that every commentator mentions whenever there's a mid-tier on stream

sadly, few realizes that shielding shuts down all his approaches and inhaling, even if it was buffed, is still really predictable

 

[KirbySquad101]

kirby is another of those "characters with untapped potential" that every commentator mentions whenever there's a mid-tier on stream

sadly, few realizes that shielding shuts down all his approaches and inhaling, even if it was buffed, is still really predictable

Inhale is not supposed to an approach tool, but a combo ender out of Inhale.

But yes, shielding is very effective against Kirby, because he doesn't have the range to make his moves safe or the speed to approach properly.

On the subject of Kirby, I'm guessing that we overreacted to Kirby's nerfs due to shield stun changes, but then we realized not much has really changed, but then most non-Kirby mains didn't get the memo and kept placing him ludicrously low.

Top of bottom 20 or 15 for me. He's not viable, or good for that matter, but he's still got a few saving graces that prevent him from being rock-bottom.

 

[Mario766]

The nitpicker returns! Fox isn't a middleweight; he's a lightweight. Carry on, everyone.


Greenbeast places well with Olimar in Chicago and so does Nom in Michigan... except Nom switched to Fox or Falco. Also, SoCal has Angbad and Rich Brown as notable Olimar players while NorCal has Soulimar and someone else I forgot. Olimar's doing fine. I don't know much about him, though.

Also, I agree with San saying we shouldn't be too hasty with saying Ike is a better Roy not just because of differing developments, but also the fact they don't really play like each other. Saying Ike is a better Roy is like saying Fox is a better Falco, Rosalina is a better Zelda, or Roy is a better Marth. Does Ike have an edge on Roy? Yes, but Roy has an edge on Ike too.

I was referring to Fox being combo food but not a heavy weight, like most people being 'combo food.' Kinda like Roy.

Nom switched to Fox btw.

 

[teddystalin]

You make it sound like Roy's Neutral special (name...?) isn't being compared.

The OP compared both Roy and Ike's neutral's uses.

Please try again.

The comparison is not apt. As my response strongly implied, Eruption's sheer strength in its role outweighs the increased versatility of Flare Blade. Besides, Roy's got far better things to be throwing out in neutral.

 

[Vipermoon]

I thought Roy had like two Sweet spots. Am I missing something?

Only Roy's Ftilt and Fsmash are like this. Ftilt does 8, 9, or 12.5%. Fsmash does 12, 17, or 20%.

Edit: Based on damage differences and hitlag, you can say Fsmash has a second sweetspot while Ftilt has a second sourspot.

 

[Ffamran]

Don't know much about Ike and Roy, but this conversation is interesting. One thing that hasn't really been gone into is their respective disadvantage states and how they can exit that state when in it. I think that plays a large role, too, so what are more knowledgeable peoples' thoughts on their disadvantage compared to each other?

Ike pulls a Fox while Roy pulls a Little Mac. Translation: Ike, like Fox, Falco, and Sheik, can shoot themselves horizontally with Quick Draw, Fox Illusion, Falco Phantasm, and Bouncing Fish to move themselves away or juke their opponents. Roy doesn't have a fully horizontal move, but he can use Blazer on the ground to armor through things. Keyword: ground. Roy can't, unlike (Dr.) Mario, Ryu, Marth, Lucina, or Little Mac use their invincible Up Specials on the ground or in the air. Roy's a bit more like Samus when it comes to using Up Special to try and escape things. It's more of OOS stuff for him like Dr. Mario, Samus, and Bowser. Also, can Roy B-reverse his Flare Blade or is that just his high air speed (acceleration)? Also, both can Counter stuff if needed. That's all I know about their disadvantage.

I was referring to Fox being combo food but not a heavy weight, like most people being 'combo food.' Kinda like Roy.

Nom switched to Fox btw.

Eh... Grammar? The way it was written, it seemed to imply that Roy is combo food for a middleweight like Fox who is combo food, but not a middleweight, hence, nitpicking!

 

[Mario766]

I never claimed to be an English major.

 

[Radical Larry]

Sir Tundra Alright, I fixed up the tier list if you want to see its revised version of it.

 

[Croph]

You can use Eruption for Airdodge/Spotdodge traps because of the lingering frames. Fun stuff.

The only thing you can compare about Ike and Roy is their reward, in which Ike has obviously the edge. Other than that they are different as night and day. Roy is more footsies oriented than Ike and he handles a lot of situations different as well(Ike wants to space you out, Roy wants to get in). They are obviously better than the other in what they are designed to be.

Why are we comparing these two? I guess spiky haired, fire swordsman rivalry.

Sometimes I get the impression that people are keen on comparing certain characters, even if both characters have different goals in mind and play differently. This thread is about viability rating, so it's natural that certain characters will be more viable than others cuz they preform better overall cuz 'tis the life of Smash Bros. But that doesn't mean characters don't deserve individual assessments for what they can offer. Mobility specs, frame data, damage output, skill cap/floor, moves, archetype, etc., are all important factors that help differentiate characters from each other. Even small number differences mean a lot to me. I guess I just have a different view here...

But anyway, we need to have more comparison discussions on Mario vs Luigi vs Wario, Dr. Mario vs Mario, Link vs Toon Link, Mewtwo vs Greninja vs Pikachu vs Zard vs Jiggs, Pit vs Dark Pit, Fox vs Falco, and Kirby vs Ganon to balance out all these FE character discussions!

I think it's too hasty to call Ike far better than Roy when Roy needs to see some more development. Low FAF on fair, horizontally-oriented combos with throws and nair, etc. lends itself to quite a bit of growing room. Roy also has more attacks he can throw out.

Some of his weaknesses includes
-Lack of aerial kill moves. Roy can really only kill near the ground. Bair just isn't strong enough to kill very easily, and it's a little slow.
-dash->shield prevents easy punishes. Roy has to punish and space around more meticulously than he should.
-often being forced to upB to recover with limited ways to adjust the timing. The upB itself is pretty decent in a vacuum, but he has to use it at pretty disadvantageous angels sometimes.
-Poor physics for throw combos that can actually confirm a kill.

These are my observations. Roy's meta may have advanced to get around a lot of these things, but I haven't seen much of him for quite a few months.

Y'know, a part of me is getting a bit impatient with the lack of Roy development. Who doesn't want to see their main receive a lot of representation and development? But then I remember we have all the time in the world to develop a character and watch how their meta game grows. And sometimes if you wanna see results you gotta make things happen on your own. even if you're garbage at Smash like me, putting effort into learning a character and being dedicated is always a great thing

Is Roy done developing? Or does he need more time? How do we judge whether a character is fully developed or not? Is 4-5 months enough to accurately say, "Yeah, X character is viable"?

Rhetorical questions btw, just something I always had in mind.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

DK's regular upb is just as good now as the custom one anyway, if not better.

 

[Y2Kay]

I picked up roy as a part of my Back-up Crew just so could develop his meta some

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I think this thread should just turn into a general competitve discussion thread, since one can talk about character viability for a wheel until it goes in circles, waiting for results and patches to stir up the cycle. Thoughts?

 

[|RK|]

Can we talk about Kirby next? I always thought of him as a solid mid tier character but all these tier list have him in bottom tier.

Great reward, really hard to get there. Only real kill-confirm (trip -> fsmash) is based on chance. Copy abilities make some matchups better. Quite frankly, I think the best Kirby would know how to properly use [most] every copy ability, but Kirby's meta never develops in that direction.

There are some BnBs everyone knows, of course - F-Throw to copy ability works like a charm - but yeah. Ultimately he's mid-tier imo. Maybe low-mid, but his reward is just too good to be in bottom. Probably better to have a matchup chart.

I think this thread should just turn into a general competitve discussion thread, since one can talk about character viability for a wheel until it goes in circles, waiting for results and patches to stir up the cycle. Thoughts?

We already do general discussion too. But sure - I guess we can talk about some ATs? I'm seeing perfect pivoting a lot more these days, so the prediction that they'd catch on later held.

I'm also really curious about option selects - do you guys think they'll play a big role later on, or?

 

[Y2Kay]

I can't see someone who supposedly goes even with sheik can be a bottom tier lol

 

[|RK|]

I can't see someone who supposedly goes even with sheik can be a bottom tier lol

Supposedly, though. Again - unless we get a Kirby player at the top level, we'll never really know. It's kind of funny - the people Shaya polled are always on one extreme or the other when it comes to the Kirbster. But "low-tier heroes" don't touch him, and high/top-tier players don't touch him either.

Really seems to be a character where you must be a fan of the series.

 

[teddystalin]

I can't see someone who supposedly goes even with sheik can be a bottom tier lol

Key word "supposedly."

 

[Y2Kay]

Key word "supposedly."

apparently his floatiness lets him escape fair strings

 

[Trifroze]

An "imaginary" reason.

I think that everything can be summed up as chaos. There is no "real" reason in a sense that you can't exactly say why something is happening or not happening... *continued in the monstrosity of an explanation below*

Spoiler: Existential crisis of Smash players and their choice of characters

If say, Melee Fox, Brawl Meta Knight, and Smash 4 Sheik were so good/OP, then why weren't they used 100% by everyone? Why use anyone, but the best? You use Captain Falcon. Is Captain Falcon the best character in the game? No. So, why do you use him? Why not Sheik? Why even invest time into ZSS when you could use Sheik to cover everything else without having to rely on another character or chance against poor MUs?

If Fox is such a good character in Smash 4, why is he being disregarded in France? Why is Roy, a mid-tier at best, hyped up so much compared to Marth who at least has theory that he could be high mid? Why even use Ryu or Peach when you can invest "less" time with ZSS, Sonic, or Fox? Why are there only 2 notable ZSS, 1 notable Pikachu, 1 notable Rosalina, and 1 notable Villager players when they are considered one of the better characters in Smash 4 with ZSS considered second best most of time? Why was there only 1 notable Mario and 1 notable Luigi when Mario like Yoshi at times has "trouble killing" and "requires reads to do anything" against him while Luigi despite being claimed as brain dead and strong, has never actually had any major tournaments under his belt?

There are so many "irrational" reasons why characters are used and aren't used. For all we know, the reason MD/VA doesn't have a good Sheik is because nobody really bothered to play her. Or perhaps, hypothetically, Japan just doesn't like Toon Link, Hawaii doesn't like DK, or Canada doesn't like Mega Man. Those aren't really valid reasons. When someone asks why you didn't play Meta Knight in Brawl and your response is, "I just didn't like his palette swaps", or for Smash 4, "I play Mewtwo because I like Pokémon". None of those are "rational" reasons. There is no logic; they are not objective, but rather, subjective. If someone said they don't play Bowser in Melee is because he gets hard countered by Sheik, then that's a valid reason. It's a fact he gets hard countered by Sheik. It is not a fact, however, for someone to say, "I like playing the Luigi MU with Zelda." Okay, on what basis is playing Zelda against Luigi beneficial or detrimental in any way other than, "I like playing Zelda vs. Luigi"?

People who choose to be "low-tier heroes", "character loyalists", or just, "I like playing as K", have no "rational" reason. You're competing, you're supposed to aim to win and, pragmatically, if that means using the best character, then you should, but people don't anyway. Pride, passion, fun, feels - as in, say Marth clicks with Joe, but Ike doesn't click with Joe -, ease of use, loyalty, challenge, or even, "nobody happened to play character H", are all reasons used by people and they're all "irrational".

Breaking things down logically and mechanically just doesn't work with people. We're chaotic and we're unpredictable most of the time. We aren't machines or something machine-like; we aren't ordered and completely predictable. You can break down why Diddy's Dtilt does something, but you can't break down why the Diddy player does anything. You can assume why the Diddy player chose to do a Dtilt to Up Smash, but could you assume exactly why he chose to do a Dtilt? People could say he read something and used Dtilt to hit confirm an Up Smash, but can you really say that? What if it was a spur of the moment where the Diddy player happened to hit a Dtilt, realized what happened, and Up Smashed?

Rationale is entirely based on goals, therefore taking things like motivation and fun into account are completely rational if your goal is to keep playing the game and not get tired of it and there's no such thing as objective rationality. Reasons are just causal links from one thing to another and that's what I'm looking for with ZSS' lack of use. It's understandable on an individual level that someone wants to use another character and doesn't care about winning enough to switch to ZSS or straight up to Sheik, but when we're looking at a large community where everyone except ~2 top level players have made this decision it's worth thinking about to me. I think the most likely reason is one that I listed previously (twice now), players just have more motivation with a different character and if they would make the switch out of desire to win why not just go for Sheik as long as she's better?

Going far off topic here but theoretically we are machines though, everything we do could be predicted if we simply had the capacity to look at the grand network of causes that led us from pre-birth to this moment through countless micro and macro events. There's no such thing as free will for instance because it would require you to think and choose your thoughts before you think them, instead they're just seemingly spontaneously evoked into your attention from your subconscious based on your biology and past experiences which you were led to by causes and more causes which were ultimately not controlled by you or anyone else. Not only is this logically a valid way to think but it helps keep calm in situations where someone is being a terrible person in one way or the other. Choices still matter but whatever efforts or lack of we consciously make we were going to end up making all along, we just don't know what it's going to be yet. Some people recognize these patterns better within a simple context like competitive fighting games when there really are some and make better predictions and more often, but to think that somewhere deep within it's ultimately just chaos is to add some sort of purely random variable into our world somewhere along the line that affects the macroscopic world (still free will would be a paradox because we wouldn't have a true choice over those random variables either).

 

[TDK]

apparently his floatiness lets him escape fair strings

So are we just going to ignore the fact that Jiggs, Mewtwo, Rosalina, and probably others I'm forgetting about can do the same thing? Are we also ignoring the fact that Kirby has difficulty approaching and can't beat Needles easily?

 

[KirbySquad101]

So are we just going to ignore the fact that Jiggs, Mewtwo, Rosalina, and probably others I'm forgetting about can do the same thing? Are we also ignoring the fact that Kirby has difficulty approaching and can't beat Needles easily?

I'm sure Mewtwo and Roslina's gigantic hitboxes prevent them from doing so.

Also, Mewtwo isn't floaty.

 

[Y2Kay]

So are we just going to ignore the fact that Jiggs, Mewtwo, Rosalina, and probably others I'm forgetting about can do the same thing? Are we also ignoring the fact that Kirby has difficulty approaching and can't beat Needles easily?

I didn't say it's valid reason,I just said that's the reason. Now on to a good talking point: who does go even with Sheik?

 

[Dre89]

View attachment 78326

You know he has 50% combos out of grab with it right

And it's also like, a really good option cover due to having early SA and enormous range that does 18% on the ground