Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Cereal Bawks]

ZeRo thinks everyone is at least mid-tier.

 

[Zelder]

*focuses on one contentious detail in tier list*

"Wow, I can't believe x is that high/that low OR x is higher/lower than y!"

 

[Mario766]

I just ignore every tier list that has Roy over Ike.


Roy does nothing better than Ike.

 

[ARGHETH]

This is my personal tier list, which is based more on the characters than usage in tournaments; some characters do change tiers through customs, and those are listed twice; once with a (custom) and once without them

A-Tier:
A-High -, , ,
A-Mid - , /, , ,
A-Low - , , , , (customs), , , ,

B-Tier:
B-High - /, , , /, , (customs)
B-Mid - , , , , (customs)
B-Low - , , , , ,,

C-Tier:
C-High - , , , , , (customs)
C-Mid - (customs), , (customs), ,
C-Low - , , , , ,

D-Tier:
D-High - , ,
D-Mid - , ,
D-Low -

I'll explain my choices in a spoiler note below:

Spoiler: Explanations

- Charizard becomes a different animal with customs on; Dragon Rush gives him some much-needed horizontal recovery options that will never potentially backfire like Flare Blitz can. Plus it still retains the ability to cancel out projectiles, making it pretty close to a straight upgrade to the standard Flare Blitz. He's one of the fastest heavies in the game and his jabs and aerials are pretty solid for a heavy character, too; plus his grab is ridiculously fast, and he now posesses both a kill throw (Up-Throw) and combo throw (Down-Throw), too. Even without customs, Charizard is still only a little worse than DK...but with customs, he's easily B-High at the moment. The buffs he got have really changed Charizard into a solid heavy character. The only thing keeping me from putting him in the top of B-High is his issues with fighting Zamus and Shiek.

- Like Charizard, Ganon is a different beast with customs. Unlike Charizard, though, Ganondorf's customs don't make up for his drawbacks. His power is great, and Wizard's Dropkick is a phenomenal recovery move...but Ganon is still outclassed by Falcon because he's so heavy and his recovery is lackluster even with WD in play. Fighting Ganon is like fighting Falcon, only much slower, heavier and just overall easier to hit, and he doesn't have much (if any) superarmor. He's still not very viable in this game, alas.

- I put Little Mac above non-customs Ganondorf because Mac's attacks are fast and powerful, and you can't easily telegraph them from a mile away. All of the superarmor Mac has also makes him better than the 'Dorf, even though his recovery is technically worse. Mac's playstyle also means he won't be quite as vulnurable as Ganon is after whiffing a move. He's by no means great, but he's better than most people make him out to be. His speed also makes him far better than Dorf. He still gets bopped HARD by Sonic, though, which combined with his pretty bad recovery and poor matchups against higher-tier characters make him pretty bad.

Pesonal tier lists not being encouraged aside, where'd Robin go? I'm pretty sure he's still in the game.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

"X is a BEAST with Customs!"

I'm not entirely sure why, but I thought that the idea of "customs Smash 4" was dead for the most part. EVO proved that it doesn't really make the game different enough to be worth using.

 

[TDK]

I just ignore every tier list that has Roy over Ike.


Roy does nothing better than Ike.

Ike trades speed for more power, a better recovery, and lack of a sourspot. I agree with this.

San, Ryuga, and Ryo all made T32 at TBH5. No Roys.

Come on guys.

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Pesonal tier lists not being encouraged aside, where'd Robin go? I'm pretty sure he's still in the game.

Whoops! My bad, accidentally forgot about Robin. Lemme fix that.

 

[TDK]

"X is a BEAST with Customs!"

I'm not entirely sure why, but I thought that the idea of "customs Smash 4" was dead for the most part. EVO proved that it doesn't really make the game different enough to be worth using.

Weren't most top 8 custom sets just X111 or some variation of that? [1 custom move only]

 

[C0rvus]

Top players didn't like customs for the most part. Player skill trumps gimmicks most of the time, and EVO's results didn't shake that notion. The ones they did use made little difference. Hell, ESAM's use of customs lead to that one janky death involving the Hydrant. I'm glad we're done with customs, if only because they are a logistical nightmare to work with.

Do we have an obvious thread for the discussion of personal tier lists? I feel like that would help people new to the thread to go somewhere else with their lists. Sometimes reading thread rules and remembering them can be hard. I feel like there should be a stickied thread where that stuff goes; there seems to be enough interest in sharing them.

 

[Mario766]

Weren't most top 8 custom sets just X111 or some variation of that? [1 custom move only]

Top players didn't even use customs. ESAM did, Sheiks either used 2111 or 1111. Most people practiced normal moves unless it was DK, Wii Fit or Villager because they could abuse really strong moves.

 

[Amadeus9]

CCI Thread

Lo, the cycle continues

 

[Ffamran]

Serious question, if you don't think there's a "real" reason what do you think there is?

An "imaginary" reason.

I think that everything can be summed up as chaos. There is no "real" reason in a sense that you can't exactly say why something is happening or not happening... *continued in the monstrosity of an explanation below*

Spoiler: Existential crisis of Smash players and their choice of characters

If say, Melee Fox, Brawl Meta Knight, and Smash 4 Sheik were so good/OP, then why weren't they used 100% by everyone? Why use anyone, but the best? You use Captain Falcon. Is Captain Falcon the best character in the game? No. So, why do you use him? Why not Sheik? Why even invest time into ZSS when you could use Sheik to cover everything else without having to rely on another character or chance against poor MUs?

If Fox is such a good character in Smash 4, why is he being disregarded in France? Why is Roy, a mid-tier at best, hyped up so much compared to Marth who at least has theory that he could be high mid? Why even use Ryu or Peach when you can invest "less" time with ZSS, Sonic, or Fox? Why are there only 2 notable ZSS, 1 notable Pikachu, 1 notable Rosalina, and 1 notable Villager players when they are considered one of the better characters in Smash 4 with ZSS considered second best most of time? Why was there only 1 notable Mario and 1 notable Luigi when Mario like Yoshi at times has "trouble killing" and "requires reads to do anything" against him while Luigi despite being claimed as brain dead and strong, has never actually had any major tournaments under his belt?

There are so many "irrational" reasons why characters are used and aren't used. For all we know, the reason MD/VA doesn't have a good Sheik is because nobody really bothered to play her. Or perhaps, hypothetically, Japan just doesn't like Toon Link, Hawaii doesn't like DK, or Canada doesn't like Mega Man. Those aren't really valid reasons. When someone asks why you didn't play Meta Knight in Brawl and your response is, "I just didn't like his palette swaps", or for Smash 4, "I play Mewtwo because I like Pokémon". None of those are "rational" reasons. There is no logic; they are not objective, but rather, subjective. If someone said they don't play Bowser in Melee is because he gets hard countered by Sheik, then that's a valid reason. It's a fact he gets hard countered by Sheik. It is not a fact, however, for someone to say, "I like playing the Luigi MU with Zelda." Okay, on what basis is playing Zelda against Luigi beneficial or detrimental in any way other than, "I like playing Zelda vs. Luigi"?

People who choose to be "low-tier heroes", "character loyalists", or just, "I like playing as K", have no "rational" reason. You're competing, you're supposed to aim to win and, pragmatically, if that means using the best character, then you should, but people don't anyway. Pride, passion, fun, feels - as in, say Marth clicks with Joe, but Ike doesn't click with Joe -, ease of use, loyalty, challenge, or even, "nobody happened to play character H", are all reasons used by people and they're all "irrational".

Breaking things down logically and mechanically just doesn't work with people. We're chaotic and we're unpredictable most of the time. We aren't machines or something machine-like; we aren't ordered and completely predictable. You can break down why Diddy's Dtilt does something, but you can't break down why the Diddy player does anything. You can assume why the Diddy player chose to do a Dtilt to Up Smash, but could you assume exactly why he chose to do a Dtilt? People could say he read something and used Dtilt to hit confirm an Up Smash, but can you really say that? What if it was a spur of the moment where the Diddy player happened to hit a Dtilt, realized what happened, and Up Smashed?

Well, Bowser is a floaty by every definition. The fact that he makes a loud noise when he hits a ground doesn't change the fact that there's as little fall speed difference between Bowser and Luigi/Samus as there is between ZSS and Falcon.

DK for example outsurvives Bowser vertically because of this (Dedede obviously as well).

E:

I can buy heavy/fatty being a term reserved for all the negative attributes like slowness and large size, but if the term "heavyweight" is used to describe anything other than characters who have a high weight value then people should just straight up pick better terms that don't already have a clear definition.

See, and this is why I don't like how FAF and IASA exist when both mean the same thing or the fact total frames works fine since it assume you know that the next frame is when you move. Or the whole foxtrot and dash technically meaning the same thing as foxtrots are repeated dashes while running is what happens after a dash. Or how, apparently, if you're heavy, but aren't heavy, you're not a heavy. Okay... then what does that make Ike, Captain Falcon, and Link!?

If we did things based on weight, a simple 3-tier system would be heavy, average, and light with stuff like above- or below-average filling in the gaps. You want to break it down even more? Then here: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Weight. As for the archetype of slow, strong, and large characters, how about "juggernaut" instead? Or hell, a tank. Has anyone seen or heard of a tank that moves fast? Has anyone heard of a tank that's weaker than glass? Or a tank whose firepower is equivalent to a nerf gun? Juggernauts would then be Bowser, Charizard, DK, King Dedede, and Ganondorf. At the same time, heavyweights would include them, Bowser Jr., Captain Falcon, Ike, Link, Lucario, Mega Man, Mii Fighter (default), Samus, Shulk, ROB, Ryu, Wario, and Yoshi. Why? 'Cause they're all heavy, but only Bowser, Charizard, DK, Triple D, and Ganondorf count as the slow - moving or attacking -, very strong, and large characters. They are our juggernauts, fatties, tanks, Big Macs, Whoppers, or whatever term you want to describe them... ELEPHANTS!

Same with movement speed: fast, average, and slow, and fall speed: fast, average, or and slow/floaty. You can't say Marth is a floaty when his fall speed is actually freaking faster than Mario who's average and people saying Mewtwo is a floaty when he and Mario share the same damn fall speed... Oh! but someone's probably saying Mario's a floaty! Then what does that make Jigglypuff? A balloon!? Almost 60 characters... Just break it into thirds; top 20 are fast fallers, heavy, fast, or whatever stat, middle 20 are average, and bottom 20 are floaty, light, slow, whatever...

 

[Vipermoon]

Agreed. Unsure about . I don't think hard counters him. His armored moves outright beat spindash. If wants to time him out then he probably could tho.

Always said this. 's advantage in this matchup is that he does not have to approach super often and can hold a lead. His disadvantage is landing and killing . Whenever I've played I have gone even with them tho (KDB, Raptor, Dunnobro). I feel it's at least 45-55 's favor.

's worst matchup is definitely . He just can't get in or land vs her. Really sucks. I used to think was bad till I realized the only thing one needs to look out for is grab, which is spotdodgeable/rollable on reaction. Played the matchup really stupidly before.

Proof of the Yoshi vs Sonic MU. Lourich is MI PR, Regralht isn't (but he will be next season), though Reg beats everyone at this point except Zinoto (the Diddy vs Yoshi MU is really bad for Yoshi) and Rayquaza.

 

[meleebrawler]

ZeRo thinks everyone is at least mid-tier.

Except Mewtwo.

 

[TDK]

Except Mewtwo.

And Dr. Mario.

 

[Vipermoon]

And the Falchions.

 

[Wintermelon43]

And Bowser

 

[Locke 06]

Proof of the Yoshi vs Sonic MU. Lourich is MI PR, Regralht isn't (but he will be next season), though Reg beats everyone at this point except Zinoto (the Diddy vs Yoshi MU is really bad for Yoshi) and Rayquaza.

Not to discredit the players, but a FAir spike at 44%, and 3 SD's in a 2-0 set isn't the best proof. It's an example, but yeah.

I will say this, Sonic is really in a bad spot after using spring on stage unless there's a platform he can go to. Especially against big up smashes like Yoshi's, that's rough. Homing attack is a nice mixup, but still...

 

[MysteriousSilver]

I'm not entirely sure why, but I thought that the idea of "customs Smash 4" was dead for the most part. EVO proved that it doesn't really make the game different enough to be worth using.

Depends on who you main

 

[Vipermoon]

Not to discredit the players, but a FAir spike at 44%, and 3 SD's in a 2-0 set isn't the best proof. It's an example, but yeah.

I will say this, Sonic is really in a bad spot after using spring on stage unless there's a platform he can go to. Especially against big up smashes like Yoshi's, that's rough. Homing attack is a nice mixup, but still...

Yeah I forgot exactly what was in there but you can definitely see the points in the match where Sonic has limited options even in neutral.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Proof of the Yoshi vs Sonic MU. Lourich is MI PR, Regralht isn't (but he will be next season), though Reg beats everyone at this point except Zinoto (the Diddy vs Yoshi MU is really bad for Yoshi) and Rayquaza.

I wouldn't say this proves anything, one match where neither players play optimally doesn't exactly show a trend

I'm unsure where I stand on the Sonic Yoshi MU. Yoshi has all the tools to give Sonic a really hard time, but I just don't see that happening enough. Usually, Yoshi's weird mobility makes him have a hard time going in and Sonics don't usually give that many openings.

In the end, it's always the same story with Yoshi, he SHOULD be good, but we don't see it enough. The match up is pretty even, maybe slightly favorable to Yoshi, but not by much

 

[TheJolteon]

On the topic of Sonic I always considered that characters with counter can beat spin dash yet I see no one doing it and just assume no one knows. I do feel that Yoshi's eggs can beat spin dash if the egg can land the mark.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Yoshi isn't that great in my opinion. He is hard to play against sure, he hard counters some characters (kirby and puff for example) but I can't see him top 10. He loses a lot of top and high tier MUs and his gimmicks are easy to work around. He has potential sure, but where's his results? Literally everything (including MUs) are still theory. Even in theory he isn't too good.

 

[Zage]

Ike trades speed for more power, a better recovery, and lack of a sourspot. I agree with this.

San, Ryuga, and Ryo all made T32 at TBH5. No Roys.

Come on guys.

To be fair, all those of the Ike mains are dedicated solo mains of their character and are making waves at their locals. I don't think Roy has the same dedication from any high level players. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

 

[Nu~]

To be fair, all those of the Ike mains are dedicated solo mains of their character and are making waves at their locals. I don't think Roy has the same dedication from any high level players. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

There is Sethlon

 

[TheJolteon]

There is Sethlon

Yea but Sethlon isnt very good at smash 4 if you compare him to the big margin

 

[Ffamran]

To be fair, all those of the Ike mains are dedicated solo mains of their character and are making waves at their locals. I don't think Roy has the same dedication from any high level players. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Not to mention that Blitz, SM, San, Ryo, Ryuga, and whoever else I'm missing worked on their Ike at most, day one to Roy's months later when he was released. Even if a top/high-level player like StaticManny or a known Roy player like Sethlon dedicated themselves to Roy, they will be behind with Roy unless some massive breakthrough is made or tons of players pool in to learn about the character like probably what happened to Ryu along with the fact Ryu technically was already developed; the basics of Ryu probably transferred from Street Fighter and that's one hell of a developed fighting game franchise.

There is Sethlon

Technically, Sethlon's not a top/high-level Smash 4 player... yet.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

On the topic of Sonic I always considered that characters with counter can beat spin dash yet I see no one doing it and just assume no one knows. I do feel that Yoshi's eggs can beat spin dash if the egg can land the mark.

The eggs are too slow most of the time, Yoshi's secret to beating Spin Dash is his aerials and command grab. His eggs are great for forcing Sonic to approach and applying pressure, but they're not great at countering the approach.

Also, you can't talk this match up without mentioning that jab. I hate Yoshi's jab with a passion

 

[Swoops]

Yup, Ike has better power and recovery and only trades speed and mobility.

Thank god those have never been important attributes in a Smash Bros. title.

 

[TheJolteon]

Yup, Ike has better power and recovery and only trades speed and mobility.

Thank god those have never been important attributes in a Smash Bros. title.

Roy has too many sour spots and Ike has all the sweet spots he could possibly have. Not to mention Ike has a guarantened kill on some characters with up throw

 

[Swoops]

Roy has too many sour spots and Ike has all the sweet spots he could possibly have. Not to mention Ike has a guarantened kill on some characters with up throw

So everyone is in agreement that Lucina is obviously better than Marth because she has no sourspots? Roy also has guaranteed kills out of things, including UThrow.

Not saying that Roy is better than Ike or anything, but the whole "Ike is so obviously better than Roy" argument is pretty silly. They do different things.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Yup, Ike has better power and recovery and only trades speed and mobility.

Thank god those have never been important attributes in a Smash Bros. title.

Except, with the size of Ike's hitboxes, mobility isn't extremely important. Not to mention his hitboxes aren't nearly as particular as Roy's. Up tilt will kill you the same whether it's the tip or the handle. Then there's the better throw follow ups, and all the other things people keep mentioning, like 3 Ikes making top 32 at BH5 but no Roys, and honestly I can't see what Japan is thinking underrating Ile like they do

 

[Swoops]

Except, with the size of Ike's hitboxes, mobility isn't extremely important. Not to mention his hitboxes aren't nearly as particular as Roy's. Up tilt will kill you the same whether it's the tip or the handle. Then there's the better throw follow ups, and all the other things people keep mentioning, like 3 Ikes making top 32 at BH5 but no Roys, and honestly I can't see what Japan is thinking underrating Ile like they do

Mobility is always important in smash. Period. Endgame. Checkmate. If I listed all the top characters and all the bottom characters in every smash title, there would be one very common thread: High mobility characters are generally at the top, and low mobility characters are generally at the bottom. There are rare cases but the evidence overwhelmingly points to that conclusion.

Again, this isn't about underrating Ike or placing him above/below Roy on a tier list. Ike is a significant threat in this game and definitely a well balanced, fun character. However, saying that mobility is a minuscule thing to give up is missing the point of the Smash series entirely :/

 

[-RedX-]

The difference in mobility specs between Roy and Ike is kinda minuscule. The difference in other areas adds up too much in Ike's favor.

 

[Pazzo.]

Roy may not get the attention Ike does, but his mobility + tools make for some interesting plays.

Missed techs off F-throw allow for all sorts of neat stuff, D-throw is a universally low percent combo tool, and U-throw can net kills with Blazer.

Not claiming Roy is top ten, but he exceeds in some areas that Ike doesn't.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

The funny thing about the "speed" part

With Ike's auto canceling aerials and low landing lag aerials, in a way Ike can actually fight faster than Roy can. I think with the new patch Ike's stuff might be safer on shield than Roy's as well in a lot (most?) cases.

Roy's not terrible or anything, most likely the second best FE character. But I'd say there is a bit of a gap, certainly a large enough one where the question of which one is better is obvious.

 

[Yonder]

ZeRo thinks everyone is at least mid-tier.

Cept M2 and Doc.

Edit: Ninja'd

 

[Planty]

The difference in mobility specs between Roy and Ike is kinda minuscule.

Bu... whu... wha... how... whut?

Walk: 23-25th
Run: 9th
Air speed: 3rd
Fall speed: 5-8th


Walk: 47th
Run: 34-39th
Air speed: 18-20th
Fall speed: 14-17th

These differences are quite noticeable. I don't know where you got the idea that the mobility difference is negligible.

 

[san.]

Bu... whu... wha... how... whut?

Walk: 23-25th
Run: 9th
Air speed: 3rd
Fall speed: 5-8th


Walk: 47th
Run: 34-39th
Air speed: 18-20th
Fall speed: 14-17th

These differences are quite noticeable. I don't know where you got the idea that the mobility difference is negligible.

Roy's pure run and air speed can't be compared to Ike definitely.

In terms of getting from point A to point B for the hitbox to reach, both are pretty similar due to the range of attacks like Ike's fair, dash attack, and bair. Both have similar initial dash speeds(assuming it's the same as Marth, otherwise I'm wrong there lol). Ike isn't really going to full blown run much. Fall speed for Ike is "fast enough."

Over a long distance, Ike makes up for his slow run speed with autocancelled quick draw, which helps him get to the other side as quickly as the faster characters.

 

[Deathcarter]

Yup, Ike has better power and recovery and only trades speed and mobility.

Thank god those have never been important attributes in a Smash Bros. title.

Ike has a really good initial dash actually. Ike isn't a speedster but he's surprisingly okay in the mobility aspect.