Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Nu~]

Rationale is entirely based on goals, therefore taking things like motivation and fun into account are completely rational if your goal is to keep playing the game and not get tired of it and there's no such thing as objective rationality. Reasons are just causal links from one thing to another and that's what I'm looking for with ZSS' lack of use. It's understandable on an individual level that someone wants to use another character and doesn't care about winning enough to switch to ZSS or straight up to Sheik, but when we're looking at a large community where everyone except ~2 top level players have made this decision it's worth thinking about to me. I think the most likely reason is one that I listed previously (twice now), players just have more motivation with a different character and if they would make the switch out of desire to win why not just go for Sheik as long as she's better?

Going far off topic here but theoretically we are machines though, everything we do could be predicted if we simply had the capacity to look at the grand network of causes that led us from pre-birth to this moment through countless micro and macro events. There's no such thing as free will for instance because it would require you to think and choose your thoughts before you think them, instead they're just seemingly spontaneously evoked into your attention from your subconscious based on your biology and past experiences which you were led to by causes and more causes which were ultimately not controlled by you or anyone else. Not only is this logically a valid way to think but it helps keep calm in situations where someone is being a terrible person in one way or the other. Choices still matter but whatever efforts or lack of we consciously make we were going to end up making all along, we just don't know what it's going to be yet. Some people recognize these patterns better within a simple context like competitive fighting games when there really are some and make better predictions and more often, but to think that somewhere deep within it's ultimately just chaos is to add some sort of purely random variable into our world somewhere along the line that affects the macroscopic world (still free will would be a paradox because we wouldn't have a true choice over those random variables either).

I love this topic, but wow it's off topic.

I have a feeling that you may like this video: http://youtu.be/9rIy0xY99a0


On topic: What are everyone's opinions on Robin's current standing? I think the recent patch really improved his spacing game

 

[Mario766]

You know he has 50% combos out of grab with it right

And it's also like, a really good option cover due to having early SA and enormous range that does 18% on the ground

That combo relies on bad DI though.

The move also has massive lag, and is incredibly unsafe on shield.

 

[Dre89]

That combo relies on bad DI though.

The move also has massive lag, and is incredibly unsafe on shield.

Are you talking about the uthrow upb one that you can do on all characters at low percents, or the uthrow bair upb that only works on certain characters

And yeah it's unsafe on shield, but so is like the rest of his moveset. It can shield poke though. The point is if you predict an option other than shield or running away, it'll beat all of them and do 18% if you catch them with the first hit. It out ranges most non-projectile moves, will SA through attacks, and will eat spotdodges and roles. Speaking of projectiles it's a legit approach mix up against projectile campers if they go for a projectile on the ground since it'll SA through it and you can move forward to punish them too.


It's incredibly good against landings since it'll SA through an aerial but it'll also eat an airdodge. It covers a lot of options at the ledge too. You can use it as dash attack too since it beats everything except shields, unless it shield pokes. M2K does that a lot. Good OOS too seeing as you can pivot it if you need be and the enormous range and SA lets you punish a lot of things that would otherwise be safe.

Even the aerial version is a pseudo combo-breaker because it comes out so quickly and you can drift to the ledge (although he struggles to get back on stage from there).

You can say it's unsafe but in reality it's a move you can get a lot of mileage out of and is useable in more situations than the custom. I mean there's the reason why M2K uses upb a lot in his sets, it's legit.

 

[Ffamran]

Rationale is entirely based on goals, therefore taking things like motivation and fun into account are completely rational if your goal is to keep playing the game and not get tired of it and there's no such thing as objective rationality. Reasons are just causal links from one thing to another and that's what I'm looking for with ZSS' lack of use. It's understandable on an individual level that someone wants to use another character and doesn't care about winning enough to switch to ZSS or straight up to Sheik, but when we're looking at a large community where everyone except ~2 top level players have made this decision it's worth thinking about to me. I think the most likely reason is one that I listed previously (twice now), players just have more motivation with a different character and if they would make the switch out of desire to win why not just go for Sheik as long as she's better?

Going far off topic here but theoretically we are machines though, everything we do could be predicted if we simply had the capacity to look at the grand network of causes that led us from pre-birth to this moment through countless micro and macro events. There's no such thing as free will for instance because it would require you to think and choose your thoughts before you think them, instead they're just seemingly spontaneously evoked into your attention from your subconscious based on your biology and past experiences which you were led to by causes and more causes which were ultimately not controlled by you or anyone else. Not only is this logically a valid way to think but it helps keep calm in situations where someone is being a terrible person in one way or the other. Choices still matter but whatever efforts or lack of we consciously make we were going to end up making all along, we just don't know what it's going to be yet. Some people recognize these patterns better within a simple context like competitive fighting games when there really are some and make better predictions and more often, but to think that somewhere deep within it's ultimately just chaos is to add some sort of purely random variable into our world somewhere along the line that affects the macroscopic world (still free will would be a paradox because we wouldn't have a true choice over those random variables either).

Completely unrelated to all of this: I just remembered something. It's difficult to immediately learn another character. Given that Smash 4 is still young and people don't know enough about it, you can't expect someone to jump from a character to another and do just as well. Few players can ever hope to do this early on in a game's life, but later, it's easier when you have so much information on a character. The players saying they might use Meta Knight, ZSS, etc. usually never have them as even secondaries. In most cases, they'll return to their main like how Ally is still stuck with Mario or how Denti is still stuck with Sheik.

The character you commit most will always be your best. Simple logic, but it's a reason why players can't hop on Luigi, Meta Knight, ZSS, Ike, Ryu, DK, etc. bandwagons and hope to do well without massive commitment. Even if they were able to reach the same level as their previous character, that means they didn't leveled up past their previous character at all. They're going to be behind other players who reached higher levels with their character. It becomes a dilemma of do you learn a better character and risk being behind as you're learning something else or do you stick with what works and know your character will always be held back?

Old habits that might have been good habits for another character can interfere. Muscle memory can interfere. And in some cases, developed or natural play style can interfere. It's possible for say, Larry to be so in tune with Fox's play style that he cannot play Meta Knight if he tried picking Meta Knight up.

 

[Browny]

People who choose to be "low-tier heroes", "character loyalists", or just, "I like playing as K", have no "rational" reason. You're competing, you're supposed to aim to win and, pragmatically, if that means using the best character, then you should, but people don't anyway. Pride, passion, fun, feels - as in, say Marth clicks with Joe, but Ike doesn't click with Joe -, ease of use, loyalty, challenge, or even, "nobody happened to play character H", are all reasons used by people and they're all "irrational".

Get out of here with that nonsense.

Whats funny about this idealogy, is that we are playing a VIDEO GAME.

One count easily say that it is irrational to only play as a character that other people tell you is the best...

My perfectly 100% rational reason for playing Mewtwo, Ganondorf and Little mac is that I like to have fun while playing video games. I also like competing, so I can both compete and have fun at the same time.

I can just as easily say that it is irrational to play a character I dont like just so I can compete better. Because why? For a potential financial gain by winning tournaments? Considering how much more money I can make with my normal job, I would say it is irrational to only play sheik, since even if I win, I'm going to make less money than had I not competed and worked instead. Therefore, the 'rational' reason for picking her and even playing the game itself, is pointless.

We play video games to have fun, and fun is not at the expense of competing. It is perfectly possible to be competitive without only picking the best option, if picking said option removes what makes the game fun to certain people therefore removing the point of playing the game.

I FULLY understand the play to win, pick a top tier mentality. I used MK in brawl because it was the path of least effort to maximum rewards. However to suggest that NOT picking MK is irrational, is going too far.

 

[Dre89]

It is sort of strange how handicapping yourself by picking a suboptimal character is admired rather than criticised, yet handicapping yourself in any other way is considered stupid. If you pick stages that aren't good for your character just because you like the look, you decide to not use combos because they 'take no skill', don't edgeguard etc.

It's funny because someone who picks a low tier is revered, yet picking a top tier and handicapping yourself is considered dumb, even if your character is still around mid-low tier level with the restrictions.

Also people who play low tiers then criticise others for being 'tier whores' are doing the equivalent of using these handicaps then complaining when others don't do the same.

Completely unrelated to all of this: I just remembered something. It's difficult to immediately learn another character. Given that Smash 4 is still young and people don't know enough about it, you can't expect someone to jump from a character to another and do just as well. Few players can ever hope to do this early on in a game's life, but later, it's easier when you have so much information on a character. The players saying they might use Meta Knight, ZSS, etc. usually never have them as even secondaries. In most cases, they'll return to their main like how Ally is still stuck with Mario or how Denti is still stuck with Sheik.

The character you commit most will always be your best. Simple logic, but it's a reason why players can't hop on Luigi, Meta Knight, ZSS, Ike, Ryu, DK, etc. bandwagons and hope to do well without massive commitment. Even if they were able to reach the same level as their previous character, that means they didn't leveled up past their previous character at all. They're going to be behind other players who reached higher levels with their character. It becomes a dilemma of do you learn a better character and risk being behind as you're learning something else or do you stick with what works and know your character will always be held back?

Old habits that might have been good habits for another character can interfere. Muscle memory can interfere. And in some cases, developed or natural play style can interfere. It's possible for say, Larry to be so in tune with Fox's play style that he cannot play Meta Knight if he tried picking Meta Knight up.

People did have success with Luigi with no investment, that was the problem. He was everyone's best character. Most people that played him just used him as a counter pick.

 

[Trifroze]

I love this topic, but wow it's off topic.

I have a feeling that you may like this video: http://youtu.be/9rIy0xY99a0


On topic: What are everyone's opinions on Robin's current standing? I think the recent patch really improved his spacing game

Vsauce is great, unfortunately though I've already rolled through all of their videos. (probably 2-3 times)

Completely unrelated to all of this: I just remembered something. It's difficult to immediately learn another character. Given that Smash 4 is still young and people don't know enough about it, you can't expect someone to jump from a character to another and do just as well. Few players can ever hope to do this early on in a game's life, but later, it's easier when you have so much information on a character. The players saying they might use Meta Knight, ZSS, etc. usually never have them as even secondaries. In most cases, they'll return to their main like how Ally is still stuck with Mario or how Denti is still stuck with Sheik.

The character you commit most will always be your best. Simple logic, but it's a reason why players can't hop on Luigi, Meta Knight, ZSS, Ike, Ryu, DK, etc. bandwagons and hope to do well without massive commitment. Even if they were able to reach the same level as their previous character, that means they didn't leveled up past their previous character at all. They're going to be behind other players who reached higher levels with their character. It becomes a dilemma of do you learn a better character and risk being behind as you're learning something else or do you stick with what works and know your character will always be held back?

Old habits that might have been good habits for another character can interfere. Muscle memory can interfere. And in some cases, developed or natural play style can interfere. It's possible for say, Larry to be so in tune with Fox's play style that he cannot play Meta Knight if he tried picking Meta Knight up.

The trouble of learning a new character is definitely a part of it, but on the long term it's still a good choice and worth committing to if that's the only thing holding you back. This is harder between some characters and playstyles as you can be good at reacting and only decent at reads or vice versa, but if you're a really good player chances are you're good at all aspects of the game and can make any transition smoothly with some effort put into it.

The point about others getting better with their old mains while you're learning a new character is arguable, since after a certain point you stop getting better with the character and instead improve your fundamentals and matchup knowledge. I don't think anyone has "maxed out" a character yet, but after a thousand or couple thousand matches improvement with the character itself slows down to probably, on average, a hundredth or less of what it was during the first couple hundred matches let alone the first couple dozen. When you switch a character you retain all fundamentals and a lot of your matchup knowledge, so all you need to learn is the essential feel of the new character (situational awareness, get their timings and physics down to muscle memory) and figure out which moves do the same job as some of your old character's moves and then use them in similar situations and so on. If anything, learning a new character can make your fundamentals improve a lot faster whereas staying solo with your old main can just eventually put you on a massive plateau.

 

[Funkermonster]

Umm... can anyone tell me why are perceived as underwhelming and what makes them so mediocre? Not really hip to the scene here but I'd have thought Zard and WFT's buffs were a significant help, and I don't really know much about the other 3 as characters (I think I can see what hurts Jiggs, but I'm not so sure) so I'm just curious.

As a bonus question, I haven't been here in forever, but last time I checked I remember seeing consistently ranked as a bottom 10 character in nearly every tier list I've seen thus far and I hear people say more bad things than good things about him (I even know a good G&W player who's on my state's PR and he always says G&W is mediocre as far as I know), yet he isn't even part of said "Underwhelming" list here. Am I missing something? Or did some sort of big bang tech happen with one of his players jumpstart his viability or something?

 

[Zannabluke]

actually japan thinks pretty highly of g&w

there was one at 9b's smashfest that kept beating his ryu, i forgot his name

 

[Wintermelon43]

Umm... can anyone tell me why are perceived as underwhelming and what makes them so mediocre? Not really hip to the scene here but I'd have thought Zard and WFT's buffs were a significant help, and I don't really know much about the other 3 as characters (I think I can see what hurts Jiggs, but I'm not so sure) so I'm just curious.

As a bonus question, I haven't been here in forever, but last time I checked I remember seeing consistently ranked as a bottom 10 character in nearly every tier list I've seen thus far and I hear people say more bad things than good things about him (I even know a good G&W player who's on my state's PR and he always says G&W is mediocre as far as I know), yet he isn't even part of said "Underwhelming" list here. Am I missing something? Or did some sort of big bang tech happen with one of his players jumpstart his viability or something?

None of those characters are underwhelming. I don't feel like posting a reason for every character right now since I have school soon, but I will still say for Jigglypuff:

Jigglypuff has amazing air attacks, his up tilt, dash attack, forward smash, and jab are all pretty good for the ground (Ground game still is bad though), amazing combos, side special and down special are very good, six jumps and good recovery due to it, she can easily KO due to forward air wall of pains, down special, and back air, (Although they can be hard to get), and she has good spacing. The Shield stun changes also greatly made her better. IMO, these advantages make up for the disadvantages, so she can still say as a lower-middle tier character. Unfortently, only Jigglypuff mains (And a few secondarys) know how good she is.

As for Game & Watch, he probably got there due to Regi, when somebody gets 9th like that, people are sure to be biased like that if they were also in the tournament that long.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

It is sort of strange how handicapping yourself by picking a suboptimal character is admired rather than criticised, yet handicapping yourself in any other way is considered stupid. If you pick stages that aren't good for your character just because you like the look, you decide to not use combos because they 'take no skill', don't edgeguard etc.

It's funny because someone who picks a low tier is revered, yet picking a top tier and handicapping yourself is considered dumb, even if your character is still around mid-low tier level with the restrictions.

Also people who play low tiers then criticise others for being 'tier whores' are doing the equivalent of using these handicaps then complaining when others don't do the same.




People did have success with Luigi with no investment, that was the problem. He was everyone's best character. Most people that played him just used him as a counter pick.

Tbh, you should be able to choose any character without being criticized for playing said character

 

[Jamurai]

Umm... can anyone tell me why are perceived as underwhelming and what makes them so mediocre? Not really hip to the scene here but I'd have thought Zard and WFT's buffs were a significant help, and I don't really know much about the other 3 as characters (I think I can see what hurts Jiggs, but I'm not so sure) so I'm just curious.

As a bonus question, I haven't been here in forever, but last time I checked I remember seeing consistently ranked as a bottom 10 character in nearly every tier list I've seen thus far and I hear people say more bad things than good things about him (I even know a good G&W player who's on my state's PR and he always says G&W is mediocre as far as I know), yet he isn't even part of said "Underwhelming" list here. Am I missing something? Or did some sort of big bang tech happen with one of his players jumpstart his viability or something?

I agree that since the buffs, WFT should at least be "inconclusive". She is beginning to get results and players are showing what she can do. She has some issues but she is definitely not bad, I think she is a viable secondary at the very least.

I'm not sure on Zard and Lucas tbh, so I'm not going to call it either way. Zard is not bad for a traditional heavy, he has some good tools... Lucas is super fun and seems solid but doesn't have much in the way of players repping him. I looked for Lucas videos the other day and all I really found was Pink Fresh losing and then switching to Pit.

Shulk and Jiggs are undeniably underwhelming imo. Jiggs will probably stay there unless she gets significant changes. Shulk is a toughy, his kit is interesting but he gets wrecked by pretty much every high and top tier because of his god awful frame data. I hope he gets at least a quicker jab so he actually has a way to deal with faster characters / rushdown.

 

[Radical Larry]

I pick Jigglypuff as a main/secondary, and with the Super Heavies, except Ganondorf, she probably has an even match up if you read the opponent right. Now why do I say even match up? Well, the super heavies are the bulkiest and strongest of all the characters, but they're also the characters with the biggest exploits Jigglypuff can pin out, and they're the biggest combo food. If Jigglypuff gets Bowser, D3 or Charizard at 30% with Pound, either F-Air or N-Air come next, simple logic. They are also the best characters to Rest, Sing or Wall-of-Pain on. On the flip side, Jigglypuff can be beaten by some of them in as little as one single attack or a shield break. Plus, the heavies have better overall range than her (this is especially true for D3).

Ganondorf is a unique case, because he's more of the 70:30 MU against Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff has her amazing aerials and air speed, as well as a great shield pressure game and Pound for breaks, great kill or combo setups against Ganondorf and whatnot. However, Ganondorf on the other hand has things other heavies don't possess. For one, he's the fastest heavy in terms of attack speed and the most powerful in terms of attack power and KO ability; he can literally one-hit Jigglypuff with 5 attacks (Reverse Warlock Punch read, Flame Choke, D-Air, Wizard's Foot and Volcano Kick shield break). He's also got one attack that will KO Puff extremely early compared to other heavies, and that's Wizard's Foot, which can KO Puff as low as 20% in the air if she tries going for Ganondorf.

Rest is the utmost highest risk move against Ganondorf. If you manage to somehow miss it or it doesn't KO Ganondorf, you're likely to get hit by his reversed Warlock Punch when he's coming down, which will lose you a stock right there and then. The other highest risk move against him is Sing, which like Rest, needs to be used optimally. He may use D-Air, F-Air or D-Spec on you to get you out of the attack. Ganondorf also has the Flame Choke > F-Tilt combo, which if you know about F-Tilt, it can semi-spike, or in Puff's case, KO her easily.

Even in the air, Puff won't fare well against Ganondorf since he has the surprisingly superior aerials. His aerials all have better reach than Puff's, making it very hard for Puff to go against him mid-air. The only attack able to allow Puff some breathing room is Pound, which will likely beat Ganondorf's aerials with its lingering hitboxes. Jigglypuff needs to exploit Ganondorf's mobility and recovery and perform gimps, but it's likely it won't happen against a Ganondorf player who knows how to play right. Ganondorf is that character who can outright dominate against Jigglypuff, thus why I believe the MU might be 70:30 in Ganondorf's favor, and if it comes down to it, it could possibly be, though it's a huge long shot, a 90:10 MU in Ganondorf's favor due to the fact that Jigglypuff can be taken down in 1 to 2 hits against Ganondorf, and has no true way to fend against Dorf without getting punished like no one's business.

70:30 might seem like the possible MU for Ganondorf vs Jiggs, but it could also end up being 90:10 (or 100:0), which might be exaggerating, but seeing as Ganondorf can do a lot against Puff and she can't do much back, it's actually very reasonable. I know that so far no MU is really past 70:30, but we're pitting two characters down who are both non-projectile characters, and one is extremely light and floaty while the other is extremely heavy and powerful (with fast attacks for his weight class).

What do you guys think? Is this a 70:30 MU? Or the legendary 100:0 MU? Anywhere in between?

 

[adom4]

I pick Jigglypuff as a main/secondary, and with the Super Heavies, except Ganondorf, she probably has an even match up if you read the opponent right. Now why do I say even match up? Well, the super heavies are the bulkiest and strongest of all the characters, but they're also the characters with the biggest exploits Jigglypuff can pin out, and they're the biggest combo food. If Jigglypuff gets Bowser, D3 or Charizard at 30% with Pound, either F-Air or N-Air come next, simple logic. They are also the best characters to Rest, Sing or Wall-of-Pain on. On the flip side, Jigglypuff can be beaten by some of them in as little as one single attack or a shield break. Plus, the heavies have better overall range than her (this is especially true for D3).

Ganondorf is a unique case, because he's more of the 70:30 MU against Jigglypuff. Jigglypuff has her amazing aerials and air speed, as well as a great shield pressure game and Pound for breaks, great kill or combo setups against Ganondorf and whatnot. However, Ganondorf on the other hand has things other heavies don't possess. For one, he's the fastest heavy in terms of attack speed and the most powerful in terms of attack power and KO ability; he can literally one-hit Jigglypuff with 5 attacks (Reverse Warlock Punch read, Flame Choke, D-Air, Wizard's Foot and Volcano Kick shield break). He's also got one attack that will KO Puff extremely early compared to other heavies, and that's Wizard's Foot, which can KO Puff as low as 20% in the air if she tries going for Ganondorf.

Rest is the utmost highest risk move against Ganondorf. If you manage to somehow miss it or it doesn't KO Ganondorf, you're likely to get hit by his reversed Warlock Punch when he's coming down, which will lose you a stock right there and then. The other highest risk move against him is Sing, which like Rest, needs to be used optimally. He may use D-Air, F-Air or D-Spec on you to get you out of the attack. Ganondorf also has the Flame Choke > F-Tilt combo, which if you know about F-Tilt, it can semi-spike, or in Puff's case, KO her easily.

Even in the air, Puff won't fare well against Ganondorf since he has the surprisingly superior aerials. His aerials all have better reach than Puff's, making it very hard for Puff to go against him mid-air. The only attack able to allow Puff some breathing room is Pound, which will likely beat Ganondorf's aerials with its lingering hitboxes. Jigglypuff needs to exploit Ganondorf's mobility and recovery and perform gimps, but it's likely it won't happen against a Ganondorf player who knows how to play right. Ganondorf is that character who can outright dominate against Jigglypuff, thus why I believe the MU might be 70:30 in Ganondorf's favor, and if it comes down to it, it could possibly be, though it's a huge long shot, a 90:10 MU in Ganondorf's favor due to the fact that Jigglypuff can be taken down in 1 to 2 hits against Ganondorf, and has no true way to fend against Dorf without getting punished like no one's business.

70:30 might seem like the possible MU for Ganondorf vs Jiggs, but it could also end up being 90:10 (or 100:0), which might be exaggerating, but seeing as Ganondorf can do a lot against Puff and she can't do much back, it's actually very reasonable. I know that so far no MU is really past 70:30, but we're pitting two characters down who are both non-projectile characters, and one is extremely light and floaty while the other is extremely heavy and powerful (with fast attacks for his weight class).

What do you guys think? Is this a 70:30 MU? Or the legendary 100:0 MU? Anywhere in between?

While i do think it's Ganondorf's easiest MU, 7-3 is a bit too high, her off stage game gives Ganondorf a lot of trouble recovering.

 

[Zelder]

None of those characters are underwhelming. I don't feel like posting a reason for every character right now since I have school soon, but I will still say for Jigglypuff:

Jigglypuff has amazing air attacks, his up tilt, dash attack, forward smash, and jab are all pretty good for the ground (Ground game still is bad though), amazing combos, side special and down special are very good, six jumps and good recovery due to it, she can easily KO due to forward air wall of pains, down special, and back air, (Although they can be hard to get), and she has good spacing. The Shield stun changes also greatly made her better. IMO, these advantages make up for the disadvantages, so she can still say as a lower-middle tier character. Unfortently, only Jigglypuff mains (And a few secondarys) know how good she is.

As for Game & Watch, he probably got there due to Regi, when somebody gets 9th like that, people are sure to be biased like that if they were also in the tournament that long.

When only the mains of a character "know" how good they are, especially at this point (the games been out for a year), then that character probably isn't very good.

 

[MistressRemilia]

Game&Watch can be summarized as an oddball, at least from my experience.
He pays kind of weirdly: he doesn't have a good neutral but some of the greatest tools to go against some precise tools.
This precise sentence also determines Game&Watch's matchups in general, and to be honest, while we're at it, Game&Watch has some of the best matchups for a character ranked in his area: Aside from Rosalina, if we only take into account the common characters of tournaments, Game&Watch really doesn't struggle vs that much characters. I mean, he doesn't go 60/40 vs every high tier ever, but he does decent vs a large majority of them.
Coupled with the fact that barely anyone knows how to fight a good Game&Watch ( It's all about respecting the different tools he has at his disposal, i won't go on further, but you get the idea ) , you have one possibly good fighter.

Tl;dr Game&Watch's mediocre representation & relatively bad stigma ( thought to be not that good ) keep him from catching the attention of more players, but i think that considering his MUs, he might be able to strike someday.

 

[Y2Kay]

When only the mains of a character "know" how good they are, especially at this point (the games been out for a year), then that character probably isn't very good.

hey not necessarily. Just because a character is an unknown doesn't necessarily mean their bad. Especially now where we have patches that comes in.

 

[meleebrawler]

When only the mains of a character "know" how good they are, especially at this point (the games been out for a year), then that character probably isn't very good.

'Twas the story of Jigglypuff in Melee, then Olimar in Brawl. Now look at them.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Umm... can anyone tell me why are perceived as underwhelming and what makes them so mediocre? Not really hip to the scene here but I'd have thought Zard and WFT's buffs were a significant help, and I don't really know much about the other 3 as characters (I think I can see what hurts Jiggs, but I'm not so sure) so I'm just curious.

- One of those characters that's significantly better with customs and is grossly underused. As far as popularity goes, he's probably in the bottom 5 and there's not really too many high level players that show him off despite all the buffs he's gotten since the beginning.

- Another character that hardly anyone uses so their potential isn't that well known.

- Currently suffering from awkward growing pains as Ness is significantly better and easier to use, making it hard to convince people to give him a shot.

- Bad frame data and one of the highest learning curves of the whole cast. Lots of top players tried giving him a go but didn't really get anywhere with him.

- Bad range, super light, not many reliable kill options, doesn't handle camping or long range attacks well, super slow on the ground, instant death if her shield is broken, etc.

 

[Mario766]

The fact anyone thinks Ganon has a 7:3 MU on ANYONE just astounds me.

 

[Jamurai]

Comparing Lucas to Ness doesn't really make sense, they certainly aren't clones of one another and they have quite different play styles.

I think Lucas is decent but top players haven't given him a good chance because he is just that: decent, somewhat similar to Roy (although Roy is more polarised in terms of strengths and weaknesses). He's fun as hell (imo) and is solid, but he won't be making waves in character popularity like Ryu is doing, despite being released at the same time. Ryu is an amazing character which gives more incentive for good players to push his meta forward. Only time will tell I suppose.

 

[bc1910]

I don't think there's a strong case for putting Lucas in bottom 5, but I'm pretty disappointed with him. After seeing his trailer I was convinced he was going to be high if not top tier, in fact I would have put money on it. Obviously trailers make whoever they're showing off look amazing but there was no arguing with that Dthrow, and Ness' strength made it seem like Lucas would get a lot of love. But in reality his grabs are just plain terrible which makes it hard to use his amazing throws, he is weaker than Ness and indeed harder to use.

I think Lucas has a lot of room to grow, but I don't know if he'll crack the top half of the roster any time soon.

Also, a point on Pac-Man. Why are a lot of his top players dropping him? Is Abadango confirmed to be switching off of him? So soon after he won Umebura 19 with him? I was starting to see Pac-Man in the realm of high tier and he's pulled in some decent results recently, but others seem to be losing faith in him.

 

[Y2Kay]

Can we stop lying to ourselves. Lucas is a clone. He's not Dark Pit, but all his moves are the same thing but with different properties bar PK freeze

 

[TTTTTsd]

Incredibly serious question: Have you used Lucas at all?

His Fair is not a multihit like Ness, his Nair is a multihit, his Dair is ALSO a multihit, he has a tether grab, his PK Fire is fundamentally different in both its trajectory, speed, and its properties on hit. His Down-B can hit things upon release (I don't believe Ness can do that with his), and his Up+B handles differently and the launch properties are different. He also has moderately similar but mostly different handling physics wise. Did I mention he has a tether grab and additionally tether ledge options?

I guess his Uair counts but it's a kill move. If his moves did the same thing and he was literally just tether grab Ness (B-throw and all) people probably wouldn't be placing him the way they are, or maybe they would? I doubt it.

 

[Zannabluke]

his down-b also heals more than ness'

 

[Zelder]

'Twas the story of Jigglypuff in Melee, then Olimar in Brawl. Now look at them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Jigglypuff and Olimar situation was a scenario where some phenomenal players had breakout performances with those characters, cementing their status on the tier list, rather than a bunch of people just repeatedly claiming the character is good with no evidence behind it, right?

 

[Radical Larry]

While i do think it's Ganondorf's easiest MU, 7-3 is a bit too high, her off stage game gives Ganondorf a lot of trouble recovering.

Well it's not out of the realm of possibility that Ganondorf's MU against Puff is a 7:3, and definitely not out of that realm for a 9:1. Puff's off-stage game is the only thing with Ganondorf's recovery, yes, but it's extremely dangerous for Puff to do anything off stage at any damage, because if Puff is low, Ganondorf can Flame Choke if the position's right. If Puff is high, Ganondorf can literally F-Air her. If Ganondorf still retains the double jump and is good enough, you can U-Air Puff at (somewhat) higher damages than F-Air. So those things might be able to solve Ganondorf's recovery problem.

But Ganondorf still has mobility issues, which are solved by his superior attack range in the MU and his early KO capability.

However, in customs, Ganondorf may pretty much have a 10:0 MU, since what you said is negligible with Puff right there and then because his Wizard's Dropkick is what remedies this all quickly. Plus, Ganondorf has Warlock Blade, which can break Puff's shield faster than U-Tilt can. And with Wizard's Dropkick from Down Throw, Ganondorf can combo against Jigglypuff easily.

 

[thehard]

To be fair, all those characters except Zard could get a new lease on life in this patch, Lucas (I see Ness going down and him going up, just a hunch) and Jiggs especially, but I feel the latter is really hurt by her environment too: top tiers who love to kill off the top, 2-stock and certain legal stages with close blast zones mean she will never ever feel truly comfortable in a match ;_;

Still, having her aerial acceleration and untouched shield-breaker relative to others should definitely push her in a better high-risk high-reward direction, as she can now probably tap shields without being immediately up-smashed. So the new environment is beneficial to her in many ways.

Also I always thought WFT was pretty good, outrageous zone game and Sun Salutation remains a top tier projectile, I think I saw John Numbers heal 22% off it in one match once, that's a f-air string right there. Shame about the matchup otherwise. Sheik loves WFT's physics, and needles ruin her off-stage stalling.

 

[warionumbah2]

Abadango hasn't dropped pacman, but at the TBH5 he went mk all the way to top 15. He had no reason to use his main vs anyone until he got to megafox. When he uses pacman, games tend to last longer than it should while mk ends alot of his games below 2mins especially since players at that tourney threw easy to juggle floaty characters at him.

 

[Y2Kay]

Incredibly serious question: Have you used Lucas at all?

His Fair is not a multihit like Ness, his Nair is a multihit, his Dair is ALSO a multihit, he has a tether grab, his PK Fire is fundamentally different in both its trajectory, speed, and its properties on hit. His Down-B can hit things upon release (I don't believe Ness can do that with his), and his Up+B handles differently and the launch properties are different. He also has moderately similar but mostly different handling physics wise. Did I mention he has a tether grab and additionally tether ledge options?

I guess his Uair counts but it's a kill move. If his moves did the same thing and he was literally just tether grab Ness (B-throw and all) people probably wouldn't be placing him the way they are, or maybe they would? I doubt it.

I know, I was talking abut his specials, not his other attacks. I didn't say they work the same way. Falco, Wolf, and Fox all play differently, but they all have blasters and shines. I didn't call him "Ness with a Tether", There are some differences other than that, he's still a clone to me because he has a PK fire, Thunder, and Magnet. He's definitely a semi clone, but c'mon guys, if he isn't a clone at all than what even is a clone?

 

[adom4]

Well it's not out of the realm of possibility that Ganondorf's MU against Puff is a 7:3, and definitely not out of that realm for a 9:1. Puff's off-stage game is the only thing with Ganondorf's recovery, yes, but it's extremely dangerous for Puff to do anything off stage at any damage, because if Puff is low, Ganondorf can Flame Choke if the position's right. If Puff is high, Ganondorf can literally F-Air her. If Ganondorf still retains the double jump and is good enough, you can U-Air Puff at (somewhat) higher damages than F-Air. So those things might be able to solve Ganondorf's recovery problem.

But Ganondorf still has mobility issues, which are solved by his superior attack range in the MU and his early KO capability.

However, in customs, Ganondorf may pretty much have a 10:0 MU, since what you said is negligible with Puff right there and then because his Wizard's Dropkick is what remedies this all quickly. Plus, Ganondorf has Warlock Blade, which can break Puff's shield faster than U-Tilt can. And with Wizard's Dropkick from Down Throw, Ganondorf can combo against Jigglypuff easily.

Well it's not out of the realm of possibility that Ganondorf's MU against Puff is a 7:3, and definitely not out of that realm for a 9:1. Puff's off-stage game is the only thing with Ganondorf's recovery, yes, but it's extremely dangerous for Puff to do anything off stage at any damage, because if Puff is low, Ganondorf can Flame Choke if the position's right. If Puff is high, Ganondorf can literally F-Air her. If Ganondorf still retains the double jump and is good enough, you can U-Air Puff at (somewhat) higher damages than F-Air. So those things might be able to solve Ganondorf's recovery problem.

But Ganondorf still has mobility issues, which are solved by his superior attack range in the MU and his early KO capability.

However, in customs, Ganondorf may pretty much have a 10:0 MU, since what you said is negligible with Puff right there and then because his Wizard's Dropkick is what remedies this all quickly. Plus, Ganondorf has Warlock Blade, which can break Puff's shield faster than U-Tilt can. And with Wizard's Dropkick from Down Throw, Ganondorf can combo against Jigglypuff easily.

By saying 10-0 you are basically saying that it's a Brawl IC vs Ganon type of MU which is not even close to true( it means that she loses before it even ****ing started).
Choke isn't even that good against puff because she'll be most of the time in the air & the risk of getting rested.
Look i love Ganondorf and think he's somewhat underrated but you are overselling him way too much every single time & now you undersell Puff too hard (and this is coming from someone who thinks she's the worst in the game).
You really don't know as much as you think about Ganondorf.

 

[wedl!!]

I think the best direction for Shulk would be to make him good at doing something; he doesn't have good reward (except for Buster/Smash, but even then his setups are limited), he doesn't have good neutral (except in Speed, and even then none of his aerials AC except for MALLC, which is the dumbest thing to actually give a character), and he doesn't have good disadvantage (except in Jump, which is still not that hard to gimp. Shield is joke-character mode and he can't land). The problem lies in Nintendo's standing philosophy for the character; he's supposed to be weaker in vanilla mode, but his Monados allow him to play in several different ways. He just doesn't actually get much improvement from them.

The Monados are basically lipstick on a pig; they try to hide fundamental flaws under the guise of something that seems "better" but in reality doesn't do much except improve on one or two things and nothing else.

F3 jab actually makes so much sense for this character. Also not-wonky hitboxes and a semi-workable kill setup would be great.

Also; how the hell does Ganondorf have an unloseable MU or anything remotely close to it? Saying it's because of shield breaks or some other stupid **** doesn't actually prove anything.

 

[Nu~]

I don't think there's a strong case for putting Lucas in bottom 5, but I'm pretty disappointed with him. After seeing his trailer I was convinced he was going to be high if not top tier, in fact I would have put money on it. Obviously trailers make whoever they're showing off look amazing but there was no arguing with that Dthrow, and Ness' strength made it seem like Lucas would get a lot of love. But in reality his grabs are just plain terrible which makes it hard to use his amazing throws, he is weaker than Ness and indeed harder to use.

I think Lucas has a lot of room to grow, but I don't know if he'll crack the top half of the roster any time soon.

Also, a point on Pac-Man. Why are a lot of his top players dropping him? Is Abadango confirmed to be switching off of him? So soon after he won Umebura 19 with him? I was starting to see Pac-Man in the realm of high tier and he's pulled in some decent results recently, but others seem to be losing faith in him.

No one dropped him. Abadango is just enamored with his new meta knight cheese so he's focusing on him more (still think he'll drop him in the future)

Over at the pacman thread, we still have a lot of people that believe pacman is riding soley on matchup inexperience. While I personally feel it's a bit short sighted to see pacman only going down in the future (we still haven't explored all of our options and the counterplay our tools have is easy to play around) it's hard to get people to stop feeling this way.

 

[Zelder]

Well it's not out of the realm of possibility that Ganondorf's MU against Puff is a 7:3, and definitely not out of that realm for a 9:1. Puff's off-stage game is the only thing with Ganondorf's recovery, yes, but it's extremely dangerous for Puff to do anything off stage at any damage, because if Puff is low, Ganondorf can Flame Choke if the position's right. If Puff is high, Ganondorf can literally F-Air her. If Ganondorf still retains the double jump and is good enough, you can U-Air Puff at (somewhat) higher damages than F-Air. So those things might be able to solve Ganondorf's recovery problem.

But Ganondorf still has mobility issues, which are solved by his superior attack range in the MU and his early KO capability.

However, in customs, Ganondorf may pretty much have a 10:0 MU, since what you said is negligible with Puff right there and then because his Wizard's Dropkick is what remedies this all quickly. Plus, Ganondorf has Warlock Blade, which can break Puff's shield faster than U-Tilt can. And with Wizard's Dropkick from Down Throw, Ganondorf can combo against Jigglypuff easily.

This would be a lot more entertaining if it wasn't the same gimmick every single time.

 

[Rikkhan]

Imo soloing a character is a very bad practice in general, sheik and to some extent ZSS and maybe pikachu are the only ones that are solo viable, and even that having a strong secondary makes you a way stronger player, Diddy has saved ZeRo a lot of times, that because there is one thing called adaptability, even though Sheik is the best character soloing her makes you suceptible to get dowloaded.

And that's the strongest solo viable characters, if we go down a little things get ugly pretty fast, like Ness players trying to be "an hero" against Rosalinas.

 

[Nobie]

I agree that since the buffs, WFT should at least be "inconclusive". She is beginning to get results and players are showing what she can do. She has some issues but she is definitely not bad, I think she is a viable secondary at the very least.

I'm not sure on Zard and Lucas tbh, so I'm not going to call it either way. Zard is not bad for a traditional heavy, he has some good tools... Lucas is super fun and seems solid but doesn't have much in the way of players repping him. I looked for Lucas videos the other day and all I really found was Pink Fresh losing and then switching to Pit.

Shulk and Jiggs are undeniably underwhelming imo. Jiggs will probably stay there unless she gets significant changes. Shulk is a toughy, his kit is interesting but he gets wrecked by pretty much every high and top tier because of his god awful frame data. I hope he gets at least a quicker jab so he actually has a way to deal with faster characters / rushdown.

Pink Fresh got to Losers Finals with Lucas at Xanadu, really showed some chops with that character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFfX9cDgKpQ

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Imo soloing a character is a very bad practice in general, sheik and to some extent ZSS and maybe pikachu are the only ones that are solo viable, and even that having a strong secondary makes you a way stronger player, Diddy has saved ZeRo a lot of times, that because there is one thing called adaptability, even though Sheik is the best character soloing her makes you suceptible to get dowloaded.

And that's the strongest solo viable characters, if we go down a little things get ugly pretty fast, like Ness players trying to be "an hero" against Rosalinas.

I'm not going to disagree that having a secondary makes you better, but you can still be good using just one character. Sonic, Fox, Ness, Mario, Rosa, and a couple others can definitely win locals for you just by themselves

Of course it's better to be great at 2 characters than just 1, but it's better to be great at 1 than just good at 2

 

[bc1910]

No one dropped him. Abadango is just enamored with his knew meta knight cheese so he's focusing on him more (still think he'll drop him in the future)

Over at the pacman thread, we still have a lot of people that believe pacman is riding soley on matchup inexperience. While I personally feel it's a bit short sighted to see pacman only going down in the future (we still haven't explored all of our options and the counterplay our tools have is easy to play around) it's hard to get people to stop feeling this way.

Ah, okay.

Hmm, well Pac-Man is IMO one of the deepest characters in the game thanks to his unusual specials. It's gonna take a long time to actually explore all his options so I think it's hard to say whether he'll head up or down the tier list. And this is ruling out any more big mechanics changes. He could end up like Snake and stay strong, or get figured out and plummet. It's one of those things where only time will tell.

Though I would say match-up inexperience, and just having unusual tools that are pretty much new to the franchise, certainly isn't going to be hurting Pac-Man. It probably is one of the reasons why he's doing well. There's a solid character behind that, though.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Mr Game & Watch is the best bait and punish character imo.

 

[Rikkhan]

I'm not going to disagree that having a secondary makes you better, but you can still be good using just one character. Sonic, Fox, Ness, Mario, Rosa, and a couple others can win locals for you just by themselves

Unless your local is stacked with good players you can win with any character, I'm talking about regional/nationals, players like Shaky and FOW stubbornly playing Ness against Rosa, or Ally/Esam having no answers against Luigi(pre patch), on the other hand player like ZeRo or Anti use their characters as the situation demands.