Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[DavemanCozy]

Ugh Lets at least agree Kirby is semi-viable right?
He can be decent in some MUs including top tiers that other characters may not do so well against, but there will be some characters where it may overall be better to choose a secondary, so if you were to play someone like.......mega man or.....I guess anyone who has trouble with rush downs or something.

He's not completely unviable for sure he can do better then a good chunk of characters.

"Isn't completely unviable" = is somewhat unviable or is a bit viable ? Either way, he still isn't viable, though neither did I imply that Kirby was Stone bottom complete trash. If we talk strictly about MUs, his mu against Sheik may not be that awful as other characters around him, but you're only considering one mu. What of Kirby's other top tier matchups? How does he do against Mario? Sonic? Yoshi? Pikachu? Now granted, Sheik isn't his only "do-able" top tier; I main Fox, I know how annoying this matchup can be. Even then, Kirby's got some really bad matchups amidst some do-able ones in the top tier. However I look at it, "falling somewhere around mid-tier" is not a viable character.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's already been said.

 

[DunnoBro]

Best MU vs sheik is probably sonic. Pika does slightly better in neutral and advantage but sonic is much harder to kill, gets way more off rage mode, and can actually pressure sheik's recovery/landing ridiculously well.

Sheik just can't punish spring escapes with kills so sonic has A LOT of time to cheese her out. He's hard to grab, too.

Also kirby struggles against non-fast fallers he can't do absurd damage output on to make up for his poor neutral. Yoshi in particular can DJ out of down air kill set-ups I believe.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Can we stop lying to ourselves. Lucas is a clone. He's not Dark Pit, but all his moves are the same thing but with different properties bar PK freeze

That's a huge stretch. Lucas is a semi-clone of Ness and trying to play one like the other will easily cause you to fail. It's like Mario and Luigi, they have similar attacks but play very differently and have different tools. One of the bigger differences is that Lucas actually has a tether, giving him approach, follow up, and recovery options that Ness doesn't have. Aside from their weird floatiness, they don't play similarly at all

 

[Nobie]

Let's talk jump physics!

When people think of characters in terms of aerial speed, they usually think of it terms of horizontal and vertical movement. However, there are a bunch of values that determine each of those, and how they all fit together is what gives characters their unique feels when airborne.

In terms of vertical movement, one of the many values a character possesses is a kind of hang-time value, sometimes called vertical friction. When a character jumps in the air, how long do they seem to stay suspended at the apex of their jump? The lower the value, the more hang-time they possess, so I guess you could call it a "hang-time resistance" value.

Take Greninja and Dedede. You'd think Greninja is a faster faller, but Dedede actually has a higher fall speed value. The difference is that Dedede's vertical friction/hang time resistance is lower, so he lingers in the air longer before descent. So in a way it is true that Dedede is floatier, but only for a brief moment.

Mewtwo has a low hang-time resistance value (which is to say he stays suspended longer) coupled with an average fall speed, which is why he seems so floaty even if his numbers seem to say otherwise.

Marth, Lucina, and Robin have the lowest values, which is why they seem to get stuck in the air as they jump.

Jigglypuff actually has a very HIGH hang-time resistance value, but is so light and has such a low fall speed it doesn't really matter. In fact, it probably helps Jigglypuff not get stuck in the air for five million years.

PS: There's also a gravity statistic that factors into all of this.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Best MU vs sheik is probably sonic. Pika does slightly better in neutral and advantage but sonic is much harder to kill, gets way more off rage mode, and can actually pressure sheik's recovery/landing ridiculously well.

Sheik just can't punish spring escapes with kills so sonic has A LOT of time to cheese her out. He's hard to grab, too.

Also kirby struggles against non-fast fallers he can't do absurd damage output on to make up for his poor neutral. Yoshi in particular can DJ out of down air kill set-ups I believe.

I'm not completely sure. If there aren't platforms, needles is very difficult to get around, and Shiek can be incredibly frustrating to land against. If there are platforms, they either can extend chains, or come with a lower ceiling that benefits Shiek's d throw killing potential. You're right Sonic stays alive longer, and Sonic gets way more than Shiek off of winning neutral, but Shiek is far from an easy match up for Sonic, so I wouldn't rush to say he's her worst

 

[DavemanCozy]

How do we talk about Miis on this thread? How do we we even talk about Miis when we're determining their viability?

I'm asking how because MLG is happening, and I'm wondering how we are supposed to talk about Miis proceeding MLG, when no one can agree how they should be handled (from weights, to specials, to guest Miis).

 

[Smog Frog]

i'm curious: how exactly does have a poor neutral? it doesnt seem straight up ass like . if anything it seems decent with options such as nair(which has 9 frames of landing lag, fair has 10 frames of landing lag) which also hits on 2 sides and is disjointed, aura sphere(it has movement tricks, conversions, and distance punishes), force palm laser, and in general low faf on his moves. his startup is a little on the slow side(which i guess hurts it a little) but he doesnt really commit very much in the neutral. is there something i'm missing? is aura uniquely crippling towards his neutral?

 

[Routa]

1111 Guest Miis are not viable. Even with different moves they are not viable (you can argue about Brawler but he/she/it lacks the combo game when in guest size). They are viable once they are allowed to use all moves and all sizes. This is the sad truth. They are crippled by the stupid "Guest 1111" rule. It is like forcing Sheiks not to do aerials at all.

 

[Nobie]

i'm curious: how exactly does have a poor neutral? it doesnt seem straight up *** like . if anything it seems decent with options such as nair(which has 9 frames of landing lag, fair has 10 frames of landing lag) which also hits on 2 sides and is disjointed, aura sphere(it has movement tricks, conversions, and distance punishes), force palm laser, and in general low faf on his moves. his startup is a little on the slow side(which i guess hurts it a little) but he doesnt really commit very much in the neutral. is there something i'm missing? is aura uniquely crippling towards his neutral?

Lucario moves fairly slowly, and has a lot of recovery on some very basic attacks, so in a way he's actually kind of similar to Ganondorf, except that he has to get punched a few times to hit as hard as Ganon. Missing Force Palm laser means eating a punish. Missing any smash attacks means eating a punish.

Lucario players disagree with me on this, but as a Mewtwo I almost never feel worried about fighting a Lucario, even though Mewtwo is made of papier-mache and Lucario has aura. Part of it is that Mewtwo can overpower low-aura Aura Spheres with Shadow Ball and Reflect sends back both Force Palm and Aura Sphere at high aura, but the main thing is how non-scary Lucario's neutral game is. That, and the fact that having two strong kill throws means all it really takes to finish off a high-aura Lucario is a 7-frame grab, or a 6-frame jab into grab.

 

[Planty]

They are crippled by the stupid "Guest 1111" rule. It is like forcing Sheiks not to do aerials at all.

I actually don't see how not letting characters customize their movesets and change their fundamental attributes at will to accommodate the matchup is similar to forcing Sheik to stay grounded. I don't care what happens to Miis so please don't start a whole argument, but that was a really bad analogy...

 

[Megamang]

And before anyone says it, there is no reliable way to have needles throughout the MU if the shiek knows the MU at all.

 

[Jamurai]

Thought I'd ask, since when has Diddy had a relatively good matchup vs Sheik? I thought he lost that pretty hard. I was under the impression that his two most annoying matchups are (unfortunately) Rosa and Sheik. Happy to be corrected otherwise though. Now that I think about it, it says a lot about how good the character is that he definitely loses to two such prolific characters yet he is considered top 10 or higher by most people.

 

[Planty]

Now that I think about it, it says a lot about how good the character is that he definitely loses to two such prolific characters yet he is considered top 10 or higher by most people.

The only top 10 character who doesn't have bad matchups vs parts of top 10 is Sheik.

 

[Illuminose]

The only top 10 character who doesn't have bad matchups vs parts of top 10 is Sheik.

Pikachu? He goes even with Sheik, positive matchups vs Zero Suit and Rosa, also generally fine or positive vs characters like Sonic, Fox, Mario, Yoshi, Diddy, MK, Ness, and Villager that could be considered top 10.

Zero Suit is second best for reasons that aren't just matchup spread (and Pika is kind of rare). But Pikachu has a better top tier matchup spread.

 

[san.]

How do we talk about Miis on this thread? How do we we even talk about Miis when we're determining their viability?

I'm asking how because MLG is happening, and I'm wondering how we are supposed to talk about Miis proceeding MLG, when no one can agree how they should be handled (from weights, to specials, to guest Miis).

Gunner is okay with a choice of specials and 50/50, but she doesn't become a high+ tier threat unless she's 0/0 as well. That's why I won't really use her in tournaments much without being able to use that size. Also, once you get to 0/0, her extended dash dances become very fast and goes a long distance. Gunner in general also has a frame 8 dash->shield, tied with Sheik, G&W, and Samus.

25/0 was the go-to before the uair changes since smash attacks were the predominant kill moves, but these changes occurred:

• Way less FAF and landing lag on uair, as well as a knockback increase. 0/0 benefits with better air speed, being able to follow opponents.
  
• The change to hitlag made fsmash on shield not so terrible. 0/0 can kinda get away with a light punish now.
• Buffs to upB1 (similar to Robin's) and upB2 (similar to Mega Man's utilt), which is the same no matter the size. UpB1 and 2 are aided by 0/0's mobility.

Less emphasis on smash attacks allows 0/0 more flexibility to be used. 25/0 just has a tiny bit too much lag and is a tiny bit too slow vs. the best characters, even though it's still quite good.

25/0 IMO is high mid to low high and 0/0 is a solid high tier now that Missile is buffed. Old Gunner was also close to high tier, but relied on a lot more grenade cheese while the current one is much more well-rounded. Gunner's MU spread is too good to have very low once she has mobility.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

"Isn't completely unviable" = is somewhat unviable or is a bit viable ? Either way, he still isn't viable, though neither did I imply that Kirby was Stone bottom complete trash. If we talk strictly about MUs, his mu against Sheik may not be that awful as other characters around him, but you're only considering one mu. What of Kirby's other top tier matchups? How does he do against Mario? Sonic? Yoshi? Pikachu? Now granted, Sheik isn't his only "do-able" top tier; I main Fox, I know how annoying this matchup can be. Even then, Kirby's got some really bad matchups amidst some do-able ones in the top tier. However I look at it, "falling somewhere around mid-tier" is not a viable character.

I agree with this. Kirby might have a better time against sheik compared to the rest of the cast, but it still isn't good. He still loses to most top/high tiers. If it isn't Fox, Falcon, or Villager (yes I know I missed ZSS, but imo it isn't good for Kirby) it isn't very do-able. Some high-mid and mid tiers also murder Kirby. Being somewhere around MUs isn't viable as a main, and I think he's low mid.

 

[Blobface]

Kind of missed the Ganon discussion here but...

I wouldn't say Ganon's issue is beating shields as much as what happens after he beats them. His throw reward is pretty lackluster (D-throw is easy to DI, F-throw and B-throw are only scary if you're right on the ledge, U-throw is still lousy), and Flame Choke is still techable. The difference between playing Ganon against a Mario that doesn't tech vs an Ike who does is massive.

 

[Planty]

The difference between playing Ganon against a Mario that doesn't tech vs an Ike who does is massive.

Why did you use Mario and Ike in your example? Why not Ike and Ike or Mario and Mario?

 

[Antonykun]

1111 Guest Miis are not viable. Even with different moves they are not viable (you can argue about Brawler but he/she/it lacks the combo game when in guest size). They are viable once they are allowed to use all moves and all sizes. This is the sad truth. They are crippled by the stupid "Guest 1111" rule. It is like forcing Sheiks not to do aerials at all.

I would rather admit Kirby beats sheik, zss, AND falcon by crouching than admit that APEX Brawler is viable

 

[Wintermelon43]

I would rather admit Kirby beats sheik, zss, AND falcon by crouching than admit that APEX Brawler is viable

Kirby actually does beat Falcon though. Sheik and ZSS are even though

 

[Antonykun]

Kirby actually does beat Falcon though. Sheik and ZSS are even though

I'm going to enjoy this one, aren't I?

 

[ARGHETH]

Kirby actually does beat Falcon though. Sheik and ZSS are even though

Because of crouching, I assume?

 

[Wintermelon43]

I would post my reasoning, but it won't load. I'll post in half an hour.

And crouching means a little, but not TOO much

 

[AKC12]

Since the topic of Kirby keeps coming back, here's something related to it.

 

[Speed Boost]

Kirby actually does beat Falcon though. Sheik and ZSS are even though

If Kirby went even with Sheik and ZSS he would be top tier...

 

[StarshipGroove]

Ryu is retardedly broken
with ridiculous combo ability + stupid KO power + stupid damage + excellent recovery and weight, safety on shield, combo breaking down b, bonkers projectiles and hitboxes, this character is Melee Fox levels of idiotic

this character is going to be this game's god tier, mark my words

 

[TurboLink]

Ryu is retardedly broken
with ridiculous combo ability + stupid KO power + stupid damage + excellent recovery and weight, safety on shield, combo breaking down b, bonkers projectiles and hitboxes, this character is Melee Fox levels of idiotic

this character is going to be this game's god tier, mark my words

Play defensive.

 

[Speed Boost]

Ryu is retardedly broken
with ridiculous combo ability + stupid KO power + stupid damage + excellent recovery and weight, safety on shield, combo breaking down b, bonkers projectiles and hitboxes, this character is Melee Fox levels of idiotic

this character is going to be this game's god tier, mark my words

Patient play from your shield is the best option against Ryu since he doesn't have any kill setups out of throws or throws that kill. Unless that changes via patch or something he won't be "god tier".

 

[TurboLink]

I have to agree with TurboLink . Patient play from your shield is the best option against Ryu since he doesn't have any kill setups out of throws or throws that kill.

That's not what I meant.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

Ryu is retardedly broken
with ridiculous combo ability + stupid KO power + stupid damage + excellent recovery and weight, safety on shield, combo breaking down b, bonkers projectiles and hitboxes, this character is Melee Fox levels of idiotic

this character is going to be this game's god tier, mark my words

From all of the times I've fought Ryu, the biggest thing I've noted is that spacing seems to be very effective defensively.

 

[Speed Boost]

That's not what I meant.

My bad, I edited my OP. I should have know that you meant wall him out with projectiles and roll all over the stage. You are a Link main after all.

 

[Vipermoon]

Play defensive.

I hate that you have to fight Ryu in this fashion. Like you literally have to camp him in a way that makes sure you kill him before he gets you to that kill percent. And he has a legit shield breaker so if he reads a shield in a certain situation you are dead. You can't exactly say that shields are the answer to Ryu and his other stuff isn't punishable on shield. You have to play defensively in a movement kind of fashion.

Kirby actually does beat Falcon though. Sheik and ZSS are even though

This is really annoying. I had another de ja vu because of you. Don't come here with that.

 

[TurboLink]

Ryu is retardedly broken
with ridiculous combo ability + stupid KO power + stupid damage + excellent recovery and weight, safety on shield, combo breaking down b, bonkers projectiles and hitboxes, this character is Melee Fox levels of idiotic

this character is going to be this game's god tier, mark my words

How are his projectiles bonkers?

 

[Ramz289]

lol I use to think Ryu was super dumb, but then I found out what my R button does..

 

[TTTTTsd]

Comparing Ryu to Fox from Melee is going to give me an actual aneurysm. Ryu's shieldbreak setups are only on DELAYED OR HELD shields. Ideally you should be PSing most things so do that. Additionally use your mobility to avoid his stuff. If you're a swordie you actually have a half decent time in the Ryu MU personally (unless you're Roy where it's even-ish).

 

[Zannabluke]

i got two words for y'all ryu haters

stay mad

 

[Y2Kay]

If Kirby went even with Sheik and ZSS he would be top tier...

His tiny size and floatiness makes him hard to combo, and can crouch under neath sheik's needles and ZSS's tether grab. He also has a good match up against fox and falcon due to being fast fallers. He has some good matchups against top tiers, it's pretty strange how a mid tier pulls it off. I might just pick him up to see what the deal is with him.

 

[Bwill3002]

I personally think there are a few good characters that go unnoticed/underrated such as
(not in a particular order)

 

[Kirby Dragons]

I personally think there are a few good characters that go unnoticed/underrated such as
(not in a particular order)

Well, 's potential is seen commonly in tournaments, and sort of . Also, 's too, through GimR. I can agree with the others though.