Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Did anything actually change with Luma breaking grabs in this patch?

I remember specifically testing how Luma behaves when Rosalina gets grabbed in the last patch and yes, she was always able to break them if you tried to pummel Rosalina and she was also able to break them if you input the attack slightly before the opponent grabbed you. What actually changed?

From what I can tell nothing. However, someone made a vudeo claiming things and no one knows anything about Rosalina so misinformation spreads.

 

[Jamurai]

It doesn't matter whether Zelda is the absolute worst or if she's a bit better than Puff or whatever, for the record I think Bowser is worse than both. We know she's down in the depths there somewhere relative to everyone else, and is not viable, and that's all we need to know. I feel like I repeat this often but there are no terrible characters in this game, Zelda is an ok character but she's still likely the worst.

 

[buzzard]

Unlike all of the other campers, Villager is juggled way too easily. The vast majority of his attacks are all horizontal, and his strongest moves (Timber and bowling ball) are only usable on the ground.

As a Zelda main, I can safely say that her specials are easily her best moves. She can camp with Din's Fire and Phantom Slash. The former has great range, speed, and power, and can be steered into your opponent. The latter, when fully charged, can kill opponents trying to recover. Naryu's Love is useful for reading; it can catch rolls, negate grabs, and get her out of combos by decreasing her fall speed. I don't really use Farore's Wind except to recover, but it automatically homes into opponents, making it difficult to avoid. If you land both hits vertically, it can kill a heavyweight at around 60%, no joke.

Many of Zelda's attacks are also quite strong, like the dash attack and up aerial. Her smash attacks are super safe on shield. Lightning Kick is a game finisher, is great in trades, and isn't that difficult to land. You can pull it out at a random time, the opponent won't know what hit them. The jab is good really good against approach. Finally, neutral aerial can stop opponent's attempts to juggle, and rack up a bit of damage.

One combo I like to do is, if my opponent is on the ground, down aerial to up smash. That's a reliable kill method.

Her flaws? Her weight is the only one I can think of.

Din's Fire is simply terrible. Extremely slow and predictable, easy to dodge, spotdodge, roll or just simply block and it creates no pressure to shields, so no one will worry about Din's "spam" (and because of how slow it is you really can't spam it), plus you can actually punch the explosion and nothing happens... A lot of characters can simply run past din's fire taking no damage at all and punish Zelda. And then there's the fact that if you happen to hit with it, you won't get much out of it if you don't hit the sweetspot. Worst move in the entire game easily, or maybe Jigglypuff's sing.

Phantom Slash is good since they fixed it in 1.0.8 I think it was, but it is extremely situational and again, like 95% of Zelda's moveset, extremely laggy and punishable and you can't spam it at all. It creates some shield pressure if it's blocked, but then again, Zelda gets no followups to it and it can be easily dodged since it's telegraphed so...

Nayru's Love is decent, it's a good punish but it can be easily baited and since -you guessed it- it's has a big endlag, she'll be punished hard for missing and I feel like it's range could be better since it can be easily avoided by properly spaced attacks and then punished. Not to mention that OoS options have been nerfed in 1.1.1 and this I think hit Zelda (already one of the worse characters in the game if not the worst) the hardest since her OoS game is one of the best (if not the best).

Farore's Wind does not home at all. It is a good move though but like Nayru, it's worse now because of the OoS nerfs as her OoS UpB is now harder to pull off and that was probably her biggest saving grace.

Dash attack is not safe on shield and because her land speed is slow it's predictable. Same for up air, she doesn't have the aerial mobility to benefit and it's a slow move, plus A LOT weaker than it was in Brawl. Smash attacks are decent, USmash kills quite early but it has a very small hitbox and is laggy. DSmash has no kill power, damage and range have been nerfed from Brawl, it's only saving grace is that it's fast. FSmash is decent but not great.

LKicks are simply terrible and I say that as someone who can get the sweetspot very consistently. She has poor air mobility to make them properly hit, they are exceeded in range by most aerial moves in the game, so you'll be hit before you hit them and if you miss them or hit the sourspot (in which case the other player gets a free smash punish because it has 0 hitstun/knockback unlike Falcon's Knee or other sourspot moves) oh boy, you are simply dead... They are only really good after a dtilt at mid % or after a sweetspot dair when it launches them straight up, but that means getting two sweetspots in a row and that makes her a hard character to use.

Also she has like 8 moves with sweetspots (fair, bair, dair, upb, dash attack, dsmash, din's fire, ftilt -almost all of them kill moves-) so she has plenty of opportunities to not kill.

She is absolutely dreadful (IMO) and was made worse by the last update. I mean when she hits properly I agree that she can kill stupidly early, but so can many other characters without the kind of disadvantages that Zelda has. She is too demanding as a character.

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't need to personally get grabbed by Ryu at 150% to say it doesn't kill.

If you read my post, you notice I described how running up smash isn't a threat with Ryu because of his average running speed. Running SRK is no no different despite coming out a few frames faster, you can react to Ryu dashing at you well before he can connect with an attack and it's punishable.

Out of dash options are important because it's how you truly threaten mid range. Ryu's has the most dangerous CQC in the game but you don't have much to fear while spacing him out with characters who have a strong zoning game, especially with disjoints.

Why dash-in with Ryu when you can short-hop nair for combos, space with short-hop fair or empty hop to grab or pressure with light jab/utilt or collarbone breaker if you're REALLY shield-happy? Then for mid-range there's dsmash, light tatsumaki and focus attack dash cancel against aggressive spacing. The only time I dash in with Ryu is to read a back roll.

Still, it is true that if the opponent doesn't let Ryu get close or land a good Focus Attack he is somewhat at a loss for reliable kills.

This video shows it all. In the first match even with an almost comical amount of rage he hardly came close to KOing Pac-Man below 100%, and that almost happened with Mewtwo as well.

 

[Trifroze]

So name me some awesome outta dash options. I specifically addressed the parts of your post that I disagreed with. I think you need to play a decent to good ryu when before you talk about his recovery and "his bad outta dash options " no lie I'm almost 100 % certain you just made that crap up to make it sound as though you know what you're talking about.

I personally like to judge the validity of claims based on reasoning, not experience or authority. If experience is worth anything at all, it's that you can reason better due to that knowledge. If you think mediocre running speed, average range and mobility on attacks like dash attack, dash grab, jc up smash and SRK, no kill options out of grabs, the lack of rising SH aerials that kill and an average projectile that doesn't realistically setup into anything doesn't warrant a midrange game that isn't particularly threatening I don't know what to tell you. At least Luigi could throw fireballs or powershield an aerial and then dash grab you and kill you out of it, and even though that's gone, many others such as Sheik, ZSS, Ness, ROB and DK can kill you out of a grab. The likes of Fox, Pikachu and Yoshi have threatening (jc) up smashes out of a dash, and characters like MK, Pikachu, Ike, Peach and Ganondorf have dash attacks that kill or setup into one.

It's really easy to say the other person doesn't know what they're talking about. It's harder to explain why. Ever since I can remember you've been taking the easy way out with your posts in this topic and shame on you because that's not how productive discussion works.

E:

Why dash-in with Ryu when you can short-hop nair for combos, space with short-hop fair or empty hop to grab or pressure with light jab/utilt or collarbone breaker if you're REALLY shield-happy? Then for mid-range there's dsmash, light tatsumaki and focus attack dash cancel against aggressive spacing. The only time I dash in with Ryu is to read a back roll.

I'm not arguing that you should dash in with Ryu, just that his options for that are bad. Now when that's the case, you of course shouldn't be relying on that, instead you have to resort to other approaches like what you mentioned, or something like walking around and shielding trying to confirm a light utilt or dtilt into something. However, Ryu would much rather have good options out of dash so he could threaten midrange with those as well. Now he can't. I don't think dsmash or the other stuff is quite "midrange enough", I'm talking more of a full fox trot distance where some other characters can threaten you with immediate dash grabs, dash-in up smashes or dash attacks.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I personally like to judge the validity of claims based on reasoning, not experience or authority. If experience is worth anything at all, it's that you can reason better due to that knowledge. If you think mediocre running speed, average range and mobility on attacks like dash attack, dash grab, jc up smash and SRK, no kill options out of grabs, the lack of rising SH aerials that kill and an average projectile that doesn't realistically setup into anything doesn't warrant a midrange game that isn't particularly threatening I don't know what to tell you. At least Luigi could throw fireballs or powershield an aerial and then dash grab you and kill you out of it, and even though that's gone, many others such as Sheik, ZSS, Ness, ROB and DK can kill you out of a grab. The likes of Fox, Pikachu and Yoshi have threatening (jc) up smashes out of a dash, and characters like MK, Pikachu, Ike, Peach and Ganondorf have dash attacks that kill or setup into one.

It's really easy to say the other person doesn't know what they're talking about. It's harder to explain why. Ever since I can remember you've been taking the easy way out with your posts in this topic and shame on you because that's not how productive discussion works.

I can spot your ignorance from a mile away. The reason I opt not to go into detail. Is because I already have. The reason why I ask if you've played any good Ryus is because your post reeks of ignorance. It's not hard on the least to explain anything when it comes to most of this stuff. It just becomes redundant when someone decides to roll out of bed to display his ignorance.

Here's an example of Ryu converting off of FB. Something which you claim he gets nothing out of.

https://youtu.be/tkLuMLkMH-g

Maybe just maybe you can shut your mouth and actually explore the game.

 

[Trifroze]

I can spot your ignorance from a mile away. The reason I opt not to go into detail. Is because I already have. The reason why I ask if you've played any good Ryus is because your post reeks of ignorance. It's not hard on the least to explain anything when it comes to most of this stuff. It just becomes redundant when someone decides to roll out of bed to display his ignorance.

Here's an example of Ryu converting off of FB. Something which you claim he gets nothing out of.

https://youtu.be/tkLuMLkMH-g

Maybe just maybe you can shut your mouth and actually explore the game.

I was going to add "and do not mention shakunetsu into dair" after the projectile part but instead simply decided to say that his projectile doesn't realistically setup into anything. Why did I add that extra word, realistically, into there and not just say it doesn't setup into anything? Because I knew you or someone else would come up with an immediate retaliation like this. Hadoken is decent for controlling space but too slow to actually hit anything and too risky to keep throwing out.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Do you guys not realize how crazy Ryus grab is out of his opening dash animation? Flick the control stick forward then grab at the end of the initial dash animation.

The man glides across the stage. It's almost as real as Captain Falcon.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I was going to add "and do not mention shakunetsu into dair" after the projectile part but instead simply decided to say that his projectile doesn't realistically setup into anything. Why did I add that extra word, realistically, into there and not just say it doesn't setup into anything? Because I knew you or someone else would come up with an immediate retaliation like this. Hadoken is decent for controlling space but too slow to actually hit anything and too risky to keep throwing out.

Hadouken is a projectile that can have varied speed. Which means reacting to it becomes different. I believe that the red hadouken stuff looks pretty legit. Hadouken can also jab lock. Both of which are realistic options. Tell me what character can throw out a projectile in nuetral and control nuetral? Villager? Maybe Megaman?

The simple truth is that you have to use the tools your character has optimally. There's no automatic win nuetral button for any character in this game.

Do you guys not realize how crazy Ryus grab is out of his opening dash animation? Flick the control stick forward then grab at the end of the initial dash animation.

The man glides across the stage. It's almost as real as Captain Falcon.

Na ryu dash grab is bad...

 

[Emblem Lord]

Trifroze So you are saying Hadouken should never hit anything?

Cool beans.

Hang on lemme message Vinnie on Facebook real quick. Gotta let him know he sucks for LETTING 9B and myself tag him with hadoukens in tourney.

rofl.

This is comedy son. Plz keep going.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The thing about Ryu's recovery is while predictable you have to cover multiple options. Depending on the character it gets harder to cover these options. If you remove his second jump from him he's easier to edgeguard. When he's recovering horizontally he has two options between focus and tastu. Focus attack can be baited and you can attack him while he's dashing however depending on the direction he goes he can be difficult to catch. Tastu is a ***** of an option to try and cover because sometimes it randomly trades or just beats out your attack. If you read tastu but the ryu does jump tastu it's going to be extremely hard if not impossible for you to punish. The reason why Ryu's horizontal recovery is good is because he can do different things to cover multiple options. Only the best of characters with extremely strong off stage games will be able to edgeguard him. Even then there's times when it's harder to edgeguard him then it should be. Also for some silly reason Ryu doesn't really die. Which can be pretty annoying and as always you have to be careful when edgeguarding that you don't over extend and eat a SRK for your troubles.

 

[bc1910]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Ryu's out of dash options. Shoryuken is alone is ****ing ridiculous. Dashgrab is massively underrated and though he's not killing you from throws, he has a fast pummel and 12% back throw. His SH aerials are good and can at least hit on the way up.

The only bad thing about his dash is the mediocre speed. That's a big weakness, but imagine Ryu with a fast dash. He actually has monstrous options, all he lacks is a kill throw.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Also you said Ryu's rising aerials are good aren't most characters rising aerials bad ? Or am I missing something here ? I could be wrong but I find this to be another strange critique of the character.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

@Zylach wanna say anything about Zelda to these people?
Her pros and cons, how she may do against some high tiers and such?

 

[Trifroze]

Hadouken is a projectile that can have varied speed. Which means reacting to it becomes different. I believe that the red hadouken stuff looks pretty legit. Hadouken can also jab lock. Both of which are realistic options. Tell me what character can throw out a projectile in nuetral and control nuetral? Villager? Maybe Megaman?

This is hardly relevant when a fast shakunetsu from close range doesn't setup into anything. It has to take its time to hit the opponent for you to have enough time to follow up on it. Here's one last thing to prove how misguided you are in your assumptions:

I can spot your ignorance from a mile away. The reason I opt not to go into detail. Is because I already have. The reason why I ask if you've played any good Ryus is because your post reeks of ignorance. It's not hard on the least to explain anything when it comes to most of this stuff. It just becomes redundant when someone decides to roll out of bed to display his ignorance.

Here's an example of Ryu converting off of FB. Something which you claim he gets nothing out of.

https://youtu.be/tkLuMLkMH-g

Maybe just maybe you can shut your mouth and actually explore the game.

http://smashboards.com/threads/do-you-think-ryu-is-going-to-be-top-tier.406492/page-2#post-19442204

Dair is a strong, 8 frame meteor for crying out loud that sends the opponent angled down-forward meaning you can use it on stage and still kill your opponent offstage plus you can combo into it from Shakunetsu Hadoken.

17th June. I was the first one I know to ever bring this up. You arrogantly think you have some sort of special knowledge that hasn't been obvious to the rest of us for ages now, you get full of yourself and then you mistreat others like you do.

Trifroze So you are saying Hadouken should never hit anything?

Cool beans.

Hang on lemme message Vinnie on Facebook real quick. Gotta let him know he sucks for LETTING 9B and myself tag him with hadoukens in tourney.

rofl.

This is comedy son. Plz keep going.

oh snap you got Vinnie on facebook let me back off real quick

You can realistically get hit by a fast hadoken from midrange but I maintain that you shouldn't be getting hit by those that are slow enough to set up into an offstage down air for instance. I mean ZSS' weak paralyzer is slightly slower at midrange than fast hadoken but considerably safer and it can catch people off guard and setup into up b or dash grab, and I still wouldn't call it a considerable threat, although it seems to work at mid-high level a lot better than at the top.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with Ryu's out of dash options. Shoryuken is alone is ****ing ridiculous. Dashgrab is massively underrated and though he's not killing you from throws, he has a fast pummel and 12% back throw. His SH aerials are good and can at least hit on the way up.

The only bad thing about his dash is the mediocre speed. That's a big weakness, but imagine Ryu with a fast dash. He actually has monstrous options, all he lacks is a kill throw.

His rising aerials are good but the ones that hit don't kill. His dash grab is average and his back throw does considerable damage (pummel is "normal" like Falcon's, ZSS' etc) but it doesn't kill. His average dash speed is also something that takes away a lot of threat from him, and rightfully so. If you read back my original argument was that this is why he isn't, quote, retardedly broken. His out of dash game is mediocre.

E: Going to take one thing back, his dash grab is definitely decent which I didn't remember.

 

[Nobie]

Imagine Ryu with Ken's HK throw, tumbling half-way across the stage. Combined with that dash grab, you could probably travel the entire length of FD.

I don't get what Villager's weaknesses are relative to other projectile characters. He has the camp game they do, but unlike them he can kill really early, and has a good recovery and edgeguarding game. I don't see what they have that he doesn't. Only thing I can think of is that he's lighter than some of them.

Villager may not be any worse at fighting other non-projectile characters compared to the rest, but when he has to take on his fellow thing-throwers (a technical term) the subtle differences that could be called weaknesses start to come out.

The grab, of course. It's tempered by the fact that back throw is one of the strongest kill throws in the game.

As others have mentioned, mobility can be an issue for Villager. He is one of the floatiest, slowest-moving characters in the game in every single category imaginable. Whether on offense or defense, he has to basically act like a slowly encroaching wall, and if you can stuff that wall consistently (easier when you're a projectile character!) you can stop him from following through with a lot of his strategies.

Pocket is great and all, but there are certain things that simply aren't worth pocketing, like Mega Man's "anything that's not a charge shot or maybe hard knuckle." It's part of what makes the Mega Man matchup an issue for Villager (conversely, Villager is a pain for Mega Man because of Villager being so danged hard to kill!).

Villager lacks any sort of speedy or rapid-fire pressure in neutral outside of short hops, though his disadvantage and advantage game are solid in this regard, and his neutral in GENERAL ins't bad. He has to basically put you on the back foot, and then try to tip you over, and he accomplishes this through a powerful zoning game. It's not a bad strategy by any means, but it can't do everything.

VIllager also has something of a blindspot diagonally below him. It's hard to exploit if Villager isn't high up in the air though.

Basically, Villager doesn't have any super glaring weaknesses that you can point to and say, "Aha! I take advantage of this one thing and now he's done for!" He has many small weaknesses that you have to exploit in small ways until you've built up enough percent to land a killing blow.

It's sort of like how people talk about Ryu as if he doesn't have any weaknesses either, when it's clear that he does. You can't base the entirety of a strategy off of just one thing like "run away from Dedede" or "gimp Little Mac," but Ryu has relatively predictable aerial movement, not-great range on normals, and a limited number of kill moves, albeit incredibly strong and versatile ones.

 

[Antonykun]

I don't get what Villager's weaknesses are relative to other projectile characters. He has the camp game they do, but unlike them he can kill really early, and has a good recovery and edgeguarding game. I don't see what they have that he doesn't. Only thing I can think of is that he's lighter than some of them.

despite being a character that specilizes in defensive projectile play its very easy to camp villager due to her terrible mobility,trashy grab, an short range on most of her moves.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Trifroze You originally spoke in absolutes. Which is simply not wise. That's why I was being facetious.

Rising Nair can set-up for spikes, f-smash, set-up for jab locks, combo into u-tilt which combos into SRK or combo into SRK off a missed tech. Percent dependent, DI will effect which option you use, character weight dependent as well and depends on if it was a full jump or SH of course. And I would not recommend shielding on pure reaction to Ryu dashing at you. SH nair into dtilt being a real string and all, you might get yourself blown up thinking shielding is the be all end all when Ryu dashes at you. Also pivot Collarbone Breaker is a thing.

 

[Dre89]

I still can't believe people think Bowser is the worst character. I'm not exaggerating when I say that is literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard in either Brawl or Sm4sh from competitive players. It's equivalent to saying Kirby was the worst character in Brawl.

To the people who think this, can you explain Bowser's meta to me and show me what you actually know about the character.

If Bowser did get put bottom in a tier list, it'd be the first time where the list is in complete disagreement with the mains of the character. Zelda and Ganondorf mains in Brawl knew their characters were bottom tier. You had a few players who were more optimistic than that, but the general consensus was that they were bad.

Funny how no one who actually plays Bowser and studies the character thinks he's bottom tier. It just goes to show the power of Zero's word.

 

[Emblem Lord]

If not Bowser then who?

I'm not saying he is.
Frankly I don't care. Bowser is worthless and irrelevant, but you since you seem to think he's not bottom tier plz explain why.

 

[Wintropy]

It just goes to show the power of Zero's word.

I don't think that has anything to do with it, definitely not in the context of this thread. We've kind of made a collective vow to disregard what ZeRo says about tiers and characters' placements therein.

Care to explain what you think of Bowser in the current meta? I'm interested in your opinion.

 

[Nobie]

You can tell how much effort they put into revamping Bowser for this game. Like, literally his arms become intangible as he punches. They REALLY wanted to make him work.

 

[LiteralGrill]

TL;DR Techable Flame Choke was a bad idea and should be undone. (I can dream...)

OBSCURE KNOWLEDGE DROP TIME!

The likely reason they made the Flame Choke techable was to eliminate item infinites that he had in Brawl. They are all impossible now in Sm4sh. That's right, items. Items have changed your precious game balance. MWAHAHAH! ITEM STANDARD PLAY IS THE FUTURE!

 

[Wintermelon43]

You can tell how much effort they put into revamping Bowser for this game. Like, literally his arms become intangible as he punches. They REALLY wanted to make him work.

And it didn't work

 

[Dre89]

I don't think that has anything to do with it, definitely not in the context of this thread. We've kind of made a collective vow to disregard what ZeRo says about tiers and characters' placements therein.

Care to explain what you think of Bowser in the current meta? I'm interested in your opinion.

I'd say he's a solid mid tier.

He can reliably kill you at 90% with frame 9 and 11 moves.

To be more specific, his neutral, landing options and ability to kill have been significantly buffed in Brawl.

Jab is his main 'spacing' tool, and if he lands it, he's likely doing around 20% in terms of the follow-ups he gets (grab, dtilt, downb etc.). That's about 1/4 of the way to kill percent for him.

His neutral is legit now because dash attack and his grabs are super good this game. His dash and pivot grabs have absurd range. They beat so many options. Dash attack is amazing too. It seems bad because of the commitment, but when you realise how much range it has (pretty sure it has a disjoint) you can punish things like jumps from absurd distances. His meta in neutral is to space with jabs, then burst with dash attack or dash/pivot grab. Dash attack works a lot more than you think it would. His options in neutral are technically commitments but he gets such massive reward and his weight gives him some margin for error. If gets in on you 3-4 times in neutral you're in kill range. He also has firebreath for opponents that decides to play reactively and not commit to anything, because it'll force them to do something. It's also free damage against certain landings. He's just really good at punishing landings in general, and gets such massive reward off it.

His landing options are all commitments but once he gets to mid percents dair and even downb are super threatening. Dair in particular covers a deceptively large amount of options due to it's speed, priority and massive landing hitbox. It also kills fairl early too considering its speed. Just waiting to punish his landing on reaction is punished by firebreath.

Then there's his kill ability. A good Bowser will kill you before more times before 100 than after it. Downb's start-up is frame 11, the pop-up combos into the bomb, and kills like the entire cast except maybe D3 before 100, not even considering rage. It confirms from jab, but really it's useable in so many scenarios you don't even need jab most of the time. Then there's bair, which is frame 9, autocancels out of a shorthop, and kills a lot of the cast around 90. Usmash is also very reliable for kills too given that if spaced correctly it's safe against aerial opponents.

Edgeguarding is probably the only aspect of his offence that sucks, but he tends to get kills at percents that characters tend to get edgeguarded at anyway.

It's funny because people think DK is at least mid-tier now, but Bowser has always had what is effectively similar to the Ding Dong. He has to wait like 10-20% later (which is like one jab punish or a grab plus some pummels for him) but never loses the window to do it unlike DK.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Grapplers don't work unless they have a great mobility option (Cerebella of Skullgirls) or the tools to nullify their inherent weaknesses(Potemkin of Guilty Gear).

 

[bc1910]

I still can't believe people think Bowser is the worst character. I'm not exaggerating when I say that is literally the dumbest thing I've ever heard in either Brawl or Sm4sh from competitive players. It's equivalent to saying Kirby was the worst character in Brawl.

To the people who think this, can you explain Bowser's meta to me and show me what you actually know about the character.

If Bowser did get put bottom in a tier list, it'd be the first time where the list is in complete disagreement with the mains of the character. Zelda and Ganondorf mains in Brawl knew their characters were bottom tier. You had a few players who were more optimistic than that, but the general consensus was that they were bad.

Funny how no one who actually plays Bowser and studies the character thinks he's bottom tier. It just goes to show the power of Zero's word.

No one in this thread thinks ZeRo's word carries anywhere near as much weight as you're suggesting.

 

[LiteralGrill]

It's funny because people think DK is at least mid-tier now, but Bowser has always had what is effectively similar to the Ding Dong. He has to wait like 10-20% later (which is like one jab punish or a grab plus some pummels for him) but never loses the window to do it unlike DK.

Is there a thread/video explaining how this combo works?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'd say he's a solid mid tier.

He can reliably kill you at 90% with frame 9 and 11 moves.

To be more specific, his neutral, landing options and ability to kill have been significantly buffed in Brawl.

Jab is his main 'spacing' tool, and if he lands it, he's likely doing around 20% in terms of the follow-ups he gets (grab, dtilt, downb etc.). That's about 1/4 of the way to kill percent for him.

His neutral is legit now because dash attack and his grabs are super good this game. His dash and pivot grabs have absurd range. They beat so many options. Dash attack is amazing too. It seems bad because of the commitment, but when you realise how much range it has (pretty sure it has a disjoint) you can punish things like jumps from absurd distances. His meta in neutral is to space with jabs, then burst with dash attack or dash/pivot grab. Dash attack works a lot more than you think it would. His options in neutral are technically commitments but he gets such massive reward and his weight gives him some margin for error. If gets in on you 3-4 times in neutral you're in kill range. He also has firebreath for opponents that decides to play reactively and not commit to anything, because it'll force them to do something. It's also free damage against certain landings. He's just really good at punishing landings in general, and gets such massive reward off it.

His landing options are all commitments but once he gets to mid percents dair and even downb are super threatening. Dair in particular covers a deceptively large amount of options due to it's speed, priority and massive landing hitbox. It also kills fairl early too considering its speed. Just waiting to punish his landing on reaction is punished by firebreath.

Then there's his kill ability. A good Bowser will kill you before more times before 100 than after it. Downb's start-up is frame 11, the pop-up combos into the bomb, and kills like the entire cast except maybe D3 before 100, not even considering rage. It confirms from jab, but really it's useable in so many scenarios you don't even need jab most of the time. Then there's bair, which is frame 9, autocancels out of a shorthop, and kills a lot of the cast around 90. Usmash is also very reliable for kills too given that if spaced correctly it's safe against aerial opponents.

Edgeguarding is probably the only aspect of his offence that sucks, but he tends to get kills at percents that characters tend to get edgeguarded at anyway.

It's funny because people think DK is at least mid-tier now, but Bowser has always had what is effectively similar to the Ding Dong. He has to wait like 10-20% later (which is like one jab punish or a grab plus some pummels for him) but never loses the window to do it unlike DK.

Alot of overstatements, alot of giving Bowser way too much credit. Jab does not confirm into his Bomb. At best it's a mix-up between bomb, command grab or dash attack. Bowser commits HEAVY to basically everything other then Bair.

You just overhype him alot in this post.

He is probably top of low tier at best. He has too many rough matches.

 

[Dre89]

Is there a thread/video explaining how this combo works?

There's no one combo. Jab-downb is a frame 7 kill at around 80. Downb is frame 11. Bair is frame 9. All of these start killing around 80-90 with no rage.

Grapplers don't work unless they have a great mobility option (Cerebella of Skullgirls) or the tools to nullify their inherent weaknesses(Potemkin of Guilty Gear).

So why do most people consider DK at least mid-then

His disadvantage is far worse than Bowser's, and his neutral game is very similar in terms of how get in on people (dash attack and grabs) and is just as commital as Bowser's. He's also way worse at the ledge.

DK went from low tier to at least mid because he kills you at 75% off a grab

Yet Bowser, with a similar neutral, a much better disadvantaged state, is considered bottom, despite the fact he kills you at 80 off a frame 7, 9 or 11 move. And unlike DK the window for it never closes.

 

[Wintropy]

So why do most people consider DK at least mid-then

His disadvantage is far worse than Bowser's, and his neutral game is very similar in terms of how get in on people (dash attack and grabs) and is just as commital as Bowser's. He's also way worse at the ledge.

DK went from low tier to at least mid because he kills you at 75% off a grab

Yet Bowser, with a similar neutral, a much better disadvantaged state, is considered bottom, despite the fact he kills you at 80 off a frame 7, 9 or 11 move. And unlike DK the window for it never closes.

DK has better spacing options in f-tilt and d-tilt, one of the craziest b-airs in the game, spikes coming out his ears and a storable smash attack in the form of Giant Punch.

He just has better, fundamentally safer options than Bowser.

EDIT: And he doesn't squat when he lands, so y'know, there's that.

 

[Dre89]

DK has better spacing options in f-tilt and d-tilt, one of the craziest b-airs in the game, spikes coming out his ears and a storable smash attack in the form of Giant Punch.

He just has better, fundamentally safer options than Bowser.

EDIT: And he doesn't squat when he lands, so y'know, there's that.

DK was generally considered worse than Bowser before the grab patch

If we're going to factor unreliable kill moves like giant punch, Bowser has tons of equally high-reward but unreliable options. Options that rarely work at high level play have minimal impact on tier placing.

Ftilt is not a better spacing option than Bowser's jab. The only reasons to ever use DK's ftilt is if the opponent is behind you, or if you angle it upward to hit an aerial opponent. You should be using dtilt otherwise. DK's dtilt is amazing, but Bowser's jab does a similar thing and is similar in safety. There's no way that difference between their tilt and jab spacing is so signifcant that it makes one a solid mid and the other a contender for worse character in the game.

And again, spikes are rare in high level play. Edgeguarding with bair is legit though, and I'll admit DK is much better at edgeguarding than Bowser.

DK is not fundamentally safer than Bowser, or at least not significantly so. His disadvantage is significantly worse, including his ability to get up from the ledge. Their neutrals are roughly similar in safety. Bowser's grab ranges are better, but DK has a slightly better dash attack. He also has more mix-ups than Bowser, but none of them are necessarily safer than what Bowser relies on in neutral.

 

[Emblem Lord]

DK is not a grappler by design. He is a strong footsie based character. An archetype that works well generally. What screwed him in past games was the incredible mobility of other characters and his physics which subjected him to heinous combos and chain grabs.

DK overall is much safer and controls space better then Bowser.

Bair and D-tilt alone make DK a much safer pick then Bowser. Giant Punch is a great punish that can be stored. Can't really ignore that.

Also they both have horrid disadvantage. Bowsers is slightly less horrid. But they both suck in that position so yeah.

DK's advantage however is DEF better and having safe ways to control space is huge. It means DK can force a shield better and net grabs thus leading into his win condition.

 

[Dre89]

DK is not a grappler by design. He is a strong footsie based character. An archetype that works well generally. What screwed him in past games was the incredible mobility of other characters and his physics which subjected him to heinous combos and chain grabs.

DK overall is much safer and controls space better then Bowser.

Again, he was considered bad before he got the Ding Dong. Don't see how getting massive grab reward somehow made his footsies better.

Any character whose gameplay revolves around getting in on the opponent rather than keeping them out is dependant on footsies to do so. Grapper simply refers to what they do once they get in.


Their neutrals are very similar. They both use similar movements, like dash-into shield, or FF empty hop into dash attack/grab. When DK is spacing with tilts, Bowser can space with jab to similar effectiveness. It's not a significant difference in safety. The main difference is that SOME DKs like using bair a lot in neutral.

I play more in the M2K style, where it's more about using footsies and then getting in with dash attacks and grabs. Except like, without all the skill M2K has. But the point is that style is very similar to what Bowser does, with similar ranges and safety.

 

[Wintropy]

DK was generally considered worse than Bowser before the grab patch

You're going to have to cite evidence to prove this point, because I don't recall that ever being a thing.

If we're going to factor unreliable kill moves like giant punch, Bowser has tons of equally high-reward but unreliable options. Options that rarely work at high level play have minimal impact on tier placing.

I didn't say they were reliable in high-level play, but they exist and, based on personal experience, they're much more reliable than Bowser's unreliable options.

Ftilt is not a better spacing option than Bowser's jab. The only reasons to ever use DK's ftilt is if the opponent is behind you, or if you angle it upward to hit an aerial opponent. You should be using dtilt otherwise. DK's dtilt is amazing, but Bowser's jab does a similar thing and is similar in safety. There's no way that difference between their tilt and jab spacing is so signifcant that it makes one a solid mid and the other a contender for worse character in the game.

When did I say that's what separates them? I'm citing his tilts as examples of things he does better than Bowser, in addition to everything else.

DK is not fundamentally safer than Bowser, or at least not significantly so. His disadvantage is significantly worse, including his ability to get up from the ledge. Their neutrals are roughly similar in safety. Bowser's grab ranges are better, but DK has a slightly better dash attack. He also has more mix-ups than Bowser, but none of them are necessarily safer than what Bowser relies on in neutral.

Emblem Lord ninja'd be to it: he controls space better than Bowser does. That in itself makes him safer, because it mitigates the opponent's ability to get in and combo him.

I have to agree with Emblem here, I think you're overstating Bowser's strengths and downplaying DK's. I don't think Bowser is a bad character, definitely not bottom-tier; I think he's a high low or a low mid. I don't necessarily think DK is that much better either. I'm just telling you why I think people think that.

 

[Dre89]

You're going to have to cite evidence to prove this point, because I don't recall that ever being a thing.



I didn't say they were reliable in high-level play, but they exist and, based on personal experience, they're much more reliable than Bowser's unreliable options.



When did I say that's what separates them? I'm citing his tilts as examples of things he does better than Bowser, in addition to everything else.



Emblem Lord ninja'd be to it: he controls space better than Bowser does. That in itself makes him safer, because it mitigates the opponent's ability to get in and combo him.

I have to agree with Emblem here, I think you're overstating Bowser's strengths and downplaying DK's. I don't think Bowser is a bad character, definitely not bottom-tier; I think he's a high low or a low mid. I don't necessarily think DK is that much better either. I'm just telling you why I think people think that.

You can check the DK boards for old threads where they discuss why people think he's one of the worst characters.

DK's space-control is actually less safe than Bowser's. Bowser controls space just as effectively with less options. He controls it incredibly well with just jab and his ridiculous pivot grab. He also has options like up angled ftilt and fire breath too. A Bowser can just play footsies spacing with jab and grabs and DK will have to do the same things, plus implement bairs to control space as effectively. That's because his jab and grab aren't as good (the shorter pivot and dash grab ranges are really significant).

I suppose my perspective is kind of unique because I've played both characters extensively against high-level opposition. I think DK is definitely the better character. He has more options and can get higher reward out of advantage (grabs, edgeguarding etc.) plus now he can kill reliably even earlier than Bowser. But I feel that Bowser's neutral is safer. I find it easier to win neutral contest against high-level opposition as Bowser than DK, just because Bowser does the same thing with less options.

 

[DunnoBro]

So I finally think I found a dthrow kill set-up flowchart for DHD... And it involves needing to be familiar enough with the character and the game to know how to punish air dodges in four very precise, specific ways depending on percent/char to make it a veritable kill confirm... (The frisbee > uair set-up being only one of them. Found out it's only optimal at just above stage level)

...

Why can't I just have a hoo hah lol

 

[Wintropy]

On another note entirely...

Why does the tip of Peach's parasol have that kind of knockback?

why

I think this was touched upon recently, but I'm wondering: what kind of practical benefit (if any) does it have? Is it just a neat way to stave off overhead moves, or is there some kind of technical daemonism to it?

Tried labbing it myself only to remember I don't know how to Peach.

@wedl

 

[Emblem Lord]

We haven't even gotten into Bowser's match-ups. Who does he beat? Or rather..who DOESN'T beat him? Who doesn't exploit his weaknesses and flaws?

Mid tier implies mostly even match-ups OR he rofl stomps some chars and gets rofl stomped by others.

You gonna tell me Bowser has more then maybe 2 or 3 match-ups that are 7-3 his favor, if that? Or he has mostly even match-ups?

Get the **** out of here.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Bowser bodies Marth/Lucina