Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[TurboLink]

Bowser bodies Marth/Lucina

Explain yourself.

 

[Vipermoon]

Bowser bodies Marth/Lucina

This is messed up. I hope you're joking.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Its just footsies where Bowser has equivalent speed, slightly longer range, an air grab, kills early, and lives forever. Also Bowser's throws do a lot more damage and aside from low percent 2-3 hit combos, Marth/Lucina cant even combo him to punish his big size. Also, Bowser's jab stuffs a lot of Marth/Lucina's options and his Up B OoS can shut down anything not spaced near perfectly on him. Its like, slight Bowser's favor in neutral, then you notice Bowser never dies and does more damage.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Bowser bodies Marth/Lucina

Except no. After all those buffs and the patches helping sword users alot, no way. At BEST he may have a 6-4 advantage. But I don't think he does. They literally play the same game, with Bowser getting more reward per hit and Marcina having more mobility and being better in disadvantage. But Bowsers huge frame and footsie gameplay means getting tippered is always a threat vs Marth as well.

BTW Bowsers recovery is free to Counter. He may not die, but getting Bowser to take around 40% or higher when trying to recover is a laughably easy task.

But lets say he does destroy them. I will humor you.

Congrats to Bowser for annihilating 2 characters that are not relevant to the meta, much like Bowser himself.

What else you got?

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Bowser still has crappy movement frame data. Like unnecessary lag just gets tacked on everytime he jumps, lands, tried to shield while running, tries to change direction, or even walk. All his attacks don't come out like how you would want them, so that puts a limit on the reaction time you can have with him, and every attack he does besides jab is a commitment, since they're all unsafe on shield.

 

[meleebrawler]

Bowser still has crappy movement frame data. Like unnecessary lag just gets tacked on everytime he jumps, lands, tried to shield while running, tries to change direction, or even walk. All his attacks don't come out like how you would want them, so that puts a limit on the reaction time you can have with him, and every attack he does besides jab is a commitment, since they're all unsafe on shield.

I thought the only character that actually takes longer to turn around is Ryu, to make inputting shakunetsus and tatsumakis easier.

Bowser's ground mobility is pretty solid really. It's just his walk that is painfully slow. He has a very quick initial dash (don't see where the "takes longer to pull up shield from running" comes from) plus what is quite possibly the best traction in the game letting him turn and stop on a dime when running.

 

[kaz99]

Bowser bodies Marth/Lucina

Explain

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Bowser actually does body Marcina ... and just about everything that tries to approach him from the air. Bowser's anti air game is pretty ridiculous.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Bowser doesnt really body anyone, but not many characters body him, only like Sheik. He just has tons of evens and slight advantage/disadvantages, but he does generally do well against swordsmen and rush down.

 

[meleebrawler]

Bowser doesnt really body anyone, but not many characters body him, only like Sheik. He just has tons of evens and slight advantage/disadvantages, but he does generally do well against swordsmen and rush down.

So basically his matchups play out mostly like Ganondorf's, except he doesn't always lose at neutral so badly due to his ground burst mobility and better OOS game in exchange for having a somewhat harder time closing stocks with everything.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Bowser doesnt really body anyone, but not many characters body him, only like Sheik.

Sheik and ZSS both body him really hard, you're also probably not gonna beat Yoshi or Sonic with him but everybody else should be doable.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Kind of, but the major difference between Bowser and Ganon is that Bowser has great footsies without relying on punishes since his jab is fantastic. He also has sword-like properties on all his claw attacks since whenever he uses a move that involves his claws/arms his arm is actually intangible and doesnt have a hurtbox, so it acts much like a sword effectively, so his disjoints are pretty large. Also, he's quite fast, even has a top 10 air speed I believe (if not its close), and air grab that is great defensively and for covering occasional aggressive approaches since it has 0 lag on landing, plus he has a good defensive game with great OoS options. Like, Bowser can approach if he needs to, has disjoints, mobility, and is good defensively. He just cant pressure too hard, is bad against zoning, gets combo'd, and has a meh recovery (its not bad, but its definitely not good).

EDIT: I agree with those 4 being hard for him. Yoshi and Sonic are doable, but Sheik/ZSS are pretty dumb. Aside from those 4, nothing that isnt too hard. Mario is debatable on how hard it is, but I dont think its any worse than -2.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu ****s Bowser up for the record. It's ugly.

Gotta love those utilts.

 

[Z'zgashi]

I forgot about Ryu. Ive never actually played it though cuz no one plays Ryu, but honestly Bowser prob goes pretty even with him at neutral, then Ryu gets a hit and just violates Bowser. I think Bowser would be really good at dealing with Focus Attack mix ups though, and Ryu's approach options are lacking in the match up, so a lot of back and forth shield pressure. Definitely Ryu advantage though, cant see how that could be even.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I forgot about Ryu. Ive never actually played it though cuz no one plays Ryu, but honestly Bowser prob goes pretty even with him at neutral, then Ryu gets a hit and just violates Bowser. I think Bowser would be really good at dealing with Focus Attack mix ups though, and Ryu's approach options are lacking in the match up, so a lot of back and forth shield pressure. Definitely Ryu advantage though, cant see how that could be even.

Isn't that basically every match he has? Holds his own in footsies and neutral but one mistake, wrong guess or commitment and GG?

Isn't that what he has always been?

Do you see what I'm getting at? We have come full circle.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Nah, cuz Bowser is actually just fine if he gets hit because, sure he takes a lot of damage, but he literally lives twice as long as your average character, so you NEED to do twice as much damage. It pretty much evens out in most match ups. Ryu can definitely still kill Bowser though so its a burden in that specific Match Up, but Mario for example is the other way around; yes Mario DESTROYS Bowser combo wise, but then Mario has Bowser at 170 and still cant kill him.

 

[Nu~]

Pretty sure bowser still dies to shoryuken at around 90%

 

[Z'zgashi]

With DI prob more like 100% but yeah, like I said, Ryu is an exception since he can still reliably kill him.

EDIT: 97% in Training Mode with no DI so yeah prob more like low/mid 90s, youre right lol.

 

[Greward]

Bowser can't get back to neutral. His disadvantage state is awful, I could even see it being the worst in the game.
He just can't land, most of his aerials won't hit someone below him and he even has awful tons of landing lag. His recovery is also very underwhelming. Being extra big also doesn't help to land.

His neutral isn't bad and he surely hits hard. Still once he's hit he's in for not getting back to neutral ever. This crippling weakness makes him a bad choice, there's very little the player can do to solve it if he has no tools.

He's kind of like Samus, just getting hit once means playing all the stock from a disadvantaged position, and that's why he can't be good unless they fix it.

 

[Baby_Sneak]

I thought the only character that actually takes longer to turn around is Ryu, to make inputting shakunetsus and tatsumakis easier.

Bowser's ground mobility is pretty solid really. It's just his walk that is painfully slow. He has a very quick initial dash (don't see where the "takes longer to pull up shield from running" comes from) plus what is quite possibly the best traction in the game letting him turn and stop on a dime when running.

The initial dash animation is long as **** and it takes a million years for the option to open up.

 

[Vipermoon]

This is BS! I cannot believe I'm reading this. Bowser can't jump, can't land, can't recover, and is a huge target for Marth.

Bowser makes Marth feel like Brawl. Yes he does crazy damage and has great range. Bowser's tilts and his jab are absolutely amazing. I would know. But so does Marth. Rising Nair actually CONNECTS against Bowser. ALL FOUR hits of Dancing Blade actually connect. Utilt after Nair 1 doesn't miss at freakin point blank against Bowser. Jab 1 is very effective here too. It will never miss at point blank and even when Bowser jumps after it, Marth can still hit him with Utilt, Ftilt, Fsmash. He doesn't have a fast aerial to punish Jab 1 either. When landing or approaching, every landing aerial Bowser tries will fail to Marth's Dancing Blade out of shield drop (which puts him back in the air or offstage). He can't Dair either to stop Marth from challenging him from below. If the Marth realizes the Bowser is in a position to try Dair he can counter on reaction. But how will Bowser voluntarily get in the air in the first place with that slow jumpsquat and no fast options of a jump (air dodge doesn't AC)? Marth has fast disjoints to stuff every jump attempt. Marth has the means of going really aggro against Bowser and stuff him at every turn. Good time to mention that this is one of Marth's most aggressive MUs. If Marth let's Bowser breathe or gain his footing at all it could be his biggest mistake in a match. One thing will lead to another.

This stuffing will lead off-stage which means Bowser will die or take crazy high damage. Even if he recovers high Marth can still punish the up B landing lag.

The one thing Bowser has here (other than his Ftilt and jab) is that frame 8 grab (side B). It works very well in this MU. Bowser's dash to shield game plan, however, is a lot less effective this patch and IMO he was overall nerfed heavily when compared to other characters from the shield changes.

Also don't expect Bowser to survive like he does in other MUs. You guys know about Marth's crazy kill power (which some of you know that I am not a fan of). If all else fails, Uthrow against Bowser isn't bad either against Bowser's 1.39 fall speed. Rage Marth's Uthrow against that fall speed is like Bowser was never heavy in the first place.

This MU is not that high in Marth's favor. It's actually almost even soley due to how disappointing Marth can be sometimes but I don't want to hear about Marth being advantageous to Bowser.

 

[TurboLink]

You guys know about Marth's crazy kill power (which some of you know that I am not a fan of).

What's wrong with Marth's kill power? Why aren't you a fan of it?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Personally I think a lot of what holds Bowser back from having more than just good/okay footsies is his walk speed and the delay he has. If he could actually walk around decently he'd be able to integrate his jabs and tilts a lot more effectively rather than having to run and then stop. I think it's a large part of why I think he's not very good. Dash > Shield getting nerfed also does NOT help in making Bowser's spacing and footsies better (I'd argue it hurts them a good deal). When your best grounded options are attacks that come out reliably from walk (and can be mixed up better that way) but you can't walk without telegraphing it at all (which is stupid, if you're gonna give him slow walk speed at least omit that DREADFUL startup that makes it painfully obvious), it's kind of inherently a problem.

8F jumpsquat is also ass, personally.

Also Bowser does not have top 10 airspeed. That'd be a nice reality but he's slower than Mac in the air if we're going by game data (Bowser is 33rd, 0.98 airspeed). So nah, not really.

 

[Vipermoon]

What's wrong with Marth's kill power? Why aren't you a fan of it?

This is besides the point and not something worth talking about in this thread. Feel free to message me if you really want my opinion.

 

[warionumbah2]

Beating marth isn't a good accomplishment, losing to him doesn't mean much either.

 

[Nobie]

Regardless of tier placement, Browser having decent neutral is a miracle of the universe.

While Browser can't dash shield as effectively anymore, the fact that his shield-damaging attacks lock the opponent in shield longer is kind of scary. We still have to see people explore it though.

 

[Mario766]

It doesn't make up for Bowser's almost worst disadvantage in the game.

Bowser vs Ike is a nightmare for Bowser. Good luck getting comboed till 110, getting out-ranged and getting Eruptioned at 60 and dying without any way to recover.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Whoops I got Air and Run speed mixed up, I meant the other one: http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/DashSpeed

And frames =/= everything, whats an extra couple frames of jump start up when youre never jumping right in front of someone, he has the range to stay away. As for landing lag and such, side b and auto cancels, you should never land with aerials as Bowser unless its side b anyway. Yes his frame data looks bad on paper, but it doesnt effect him much since he doesnt jump under pressure much or land with aerials.

 

[Wintropy]

Okay so what we learned:

- Bowser isn't the worst character in the game (probably)
- He's top of the class in dash speed
- He has a reasonable matchup spread for a supposed bottom-tier
- He has a good neutral game and disjointed spacing moves, but a terrible disadvantage

So why is he considered mid-tier at best?

Sincere question.

 

[Mario766]

How exactly does Bowser have a good neutral game? He has decent range on his attacks, but what pressure does he have outside of tilt range? What does he have from mid-range?

 

[bc1910]

Okay so what we learned:

- Bowser isn't the worst character in the game (probably)
- He's top of the class in dash speed
- He has a reasonable matchup spread for a supposed bottom-tier
- He has a good neutral game and disjointed spacing moves, but a terrible disadvantage

So why is he considered mid-tier at best?

Sincere question.

Because he's secret #1 just like he was at the start of the game?

No but this is one of those discussions where the ones talking about Bowser's strengths are shouting loudly enough to drown out the ones talking about his weaknesses.

He has far more weaknesses than just a bad disadvantage state and when people start saying things like "his bad frame data doesn't ACTUALLY affect him like REALISTICALLY" it's probably time to move on.

 

[san.]

He gets too much lag on basic things like jumping, landing, basic dodge options, dash->shield(?? not sure about this), just as someone above me said. That's potentially worse than somewhat poor attack frame data.

 

[TTTTTsd]

He gets too much lag on basic things like jumping, landing, basic dodge options, dash->shield(?? not sure about this), just as someone above me said. That's potentially worse than somewhat poor attack frame data.

Dash > Shield is worse in that you can't hold shield as well in this game anymore even as Dr. Mario (Up+B OoS is still really good but Dash > Shield in the neutral is in general worse for everyone), mostly because once you get past shield lock frames the added shieldstun really kicks in. It's just Dash > Shield was really good for all heavies (Bowser and Ganon I think lose the most from this being worse personally)

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Bowser's large hurtbox imo negatively affects his neutral since it gives the opponent more options to use against him than shorter characters. An insane amount of lag on nearly every one of his actions doesn't help him either.

 

[san.]

Dash > Shield is worse in that you can't hold shield as well in this game anymore even as Dr. Mario (Up+B OoS is still really good but Dash > Shield in the neutral is in general worse for everyone), mostly because once you get past shield lock frames the added shieldstun really kicks in. It's just Dash > Shield was really good for all heavies (Bowser and Ganon I think lose the most from this being worse personally)

Yeah, but I was talking about the number of frames it takes to go from dashing to shielding. Shield lock frames aren't too bad.

Sheik, Samus, G&W, Mii Gunner I believe takes 8 frames.

The vast majority of characters are frame 10.

Then it gets pretty bad at 11-16 with the Marth crew being the worst.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Yeah, but I was talking about the number of frames it takes to go from dashing to shielding. Shield lock frames aren't too bad.

Sheik, Samus, G&W, Mii Gunner I believe takes 8 frames.

The vast majority of characters are frame 10.

Then it gets pretty bad at 11-16 with the Marth crew being the worst.

I see, I see. My bad entirely. I had no idea you meant that. Yeah that's not super hot for Bowz either (I forget where he falls relative to this though)

 

[Jehtt]

If it is worth anything to the discussion, a Bowser (Big Sean) recently placed top 3 at Come On and Ban at the Foundry. http://showdowngg.challonge.com/comeonandban36

 

[bc1910]

Yeah, but I was talking about the number of frames it takes to go from dashing to shielding. Shield lock frames aren't too bad.

Sheik, Samus, G&W, Mii Gunner I believe takes 8 frames.

The vast majority of characters are frame 10.

Then it gets pretty bad at 11-16 with the Marth crew being the worst.

I would be very interested in seeing full accurate frame data on dash to shield for all characters if you know it? I've never been able to find it.

 

[san.]

I would be very interested in seeing full accurate frame data on dash to shield for all characters if you know it? I've never been able to find it.

I was too lazy to check the link.

Couldn't find initial dash lengths so here they are (in frames):

8:

Mr. Game & Watch
Samus
Sheik

10:

Bowser Jr
Charizard
Diddy Kong
Duck Hunt Duo
Greninja
Fox
Ike
King Dedede
Lucario
Lucas
Luigi
Mario
Mega Man
Mewtwo
Dr. Mario
Olimar
Pac-Man
Palutena
R.O.B.
Ryu
Shulk
Sonic

11:

Falco

12:

Kirby
Link
Meta Knight
Pit
Dark Pit
Toon Link
Wario
Zero Suit Samus

13:

Bowser
Jigglypuff
Ness
Pikachu
Villager

14:

Yoshi

15:

Captain Falcon
Donkey Kong
Ganondorf
Little Mac
Peach
Rosalina & Luma
Wii Fit Trainer
Zelda

16:

Marth
Lucina
Robin
Roy

Mii Gunner is 8.
Mii Swordfighter is likely 16 (LOL)
Mii Brawler I haven't tested, maybe 10?.

 

[bc1910]

san. Thanks a lot!

Damn, Fire Emblem tier indeed lol.