Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[wedl!!]

What.

? ? ? ? Those characters are quite a lot better at bait and punish (and punishing in general).

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Unless your local is stacked with good players you can win with any character, I'm talking about regional/nationals, players like Shaky and FOW stubbornly playing Ness against Rosa, or Ally/Esam having no answers against Luigi(pre patch), on the other hand player like ZeRo or Anti use their characters as the situation demands.

Okay, sorry, I'm used to living in Texas, where locals are as big as small regionals sometimes. You're still being unreasonable by saying only those characters are solo viable. We see people making top 64 at nationals using only 1 character all the time, and typically it takes one of the crazy good elites to take them down. If the only people you lose to are people like ZeRo, Esam, Dabuz, and Nairo and the like, you don't deserve the disrespect you're dishing out

 

[Jamurai]

Pink Fresh got to Losers Finals with Lucas at Xanadu, really showed some chops with that character.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFfX9cDgKpQ

I went and searched for stuff after I posted that and of course, this was posted the day after I last searched rofl. Cheers. Yeah PF does work in those sets. His combos aren't even that on point yet, will be even scarier when they are.

, and are the best bait and punish characters. has awesome punishes but I don't think he's on the same level as those three who can and will kill you at any % off one conversion.

 

[shrooby]

I'm not going to disagree that having a secondary makes you better, but you can still be good using just one character. Sonic, Fox, Ness, Mario, Rosa, and a couple others can definitely win locals for you just by themselves

Of course it's better to be great at 2 characters than just 1, but it's better to be great at 1 than just good at 2

Knowing how to use many characters isn't bad.
The best tool in battle is knowing the enemy inside and out.
Whether or not you actually use those characters in bracket is another thing, but knowing multiple characters lets you be better equipped at fighting those characters.
The best players use multiple characters. Larry just won a local going all DK for crying out loud.
Freaking Larry~
Though, generally, if you're a good enough player, "knowing how to use" a character means you could pull them out in bracket and have a chance. Even if they're not your "main."
It really isn't a detriment to your skill so long as your fundamentals are honed enough. It furthers your knowledge of the game, which is very valuable.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Proof of the Yoshi vs Sonic MU. Lourich is MI PR, Regralht isn't (but he will be next season), though Reg beats everyone at this point except Zinoto (the Diddy vs Yoshi MU is really bad for Yoshi) and Rayquaza.

That has 0 mixup game and doesn't play optimal by any means. This is not indicative of the matchup.

This is more appropriate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8828TmmewE

 

[Nobie]

Though this doesn't affect the highest levels of play, one concern I have when it comes to people counterpicking characters is that it encourages the mentality that counterpicking is the way to win for less skilled players.

Obviously some characters fight other characters better, and some characters are also worse overall, but if you go into advice threads on /r/crazyhand or whatever, you'll often see someone ask, "What character do I pick to beat this other character?" The lesson they've learned is that the key to winning is to just "find the right character" instead of learning the ins and outs of a matchup.

Playing a lot of different characters and playing them WELL is no small feat, and if someone is able to win because of that, more power to them. However, I think what needs to be stressed to lower level players is that they can't simply hide their weaknesses by playing the counterpick game.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

Knowing how to use many characters isn't bad.
The best tool in battle is knowing the enemy inside and out.
Whether or not you actually use those characters in bracket is another thing, but knowing multiple characters lets you be better equipped at fighting those characters.
The best players use multiple characters. Larry just won a local going all DK for crying out loud.
Freaking Larry~
Though, generally, if you're a good enough player, "knowing how to use" a character means you could pull them out in bracket and have a chance. Even if they're not your "main."
It really isn't a detriment to your skill so long as your fundamentals are honed enough. It furthers your knowledge of the game, which is very valuable.

Fair enough, I was just trying to counter his point that only 2 or 3 characters are solo viable. I know for a fact Sonic is, and I'm told others besides Shiek, ZSS, and Pikachu are.

You're right of course though, learning other characters, even if you don't use them, makes you better

 

[Zelder]

Basically you just want to know what an opposing character's given "gameplan" is at all moment of gameplay. Something like : go for a high damage grab or : frustrate the ever living **** of you until you destroy your controller in a rage. Stuff like that

 

[LancerStaff]

So, real talk. You guys think Pit is solo viable?

 

[Amadeus9]

So, real talk. You guys think Pit is solo viable?

Solo viable as in "you won't need a secondary to make matchups easier": Yes

Solo viable as in "you can pick this fighter and win anything important": No

You just have to work way harder than you need to with other fighters to get anything done with Pit

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

What about Peach? Besides like a handful of MUs is she somewhat solo viable?
She seems to lack mobility, and approach options, so rush downs are mainly a threat it seems like.

 

[NegaNixx]

Though this doesn't affect the highest levels of play, one concern I have when it comes to people counterpicking characters is that it encourages the mentality that counterpicking is the way to win for less skilled players.

I rotate between three different characters depending on the day, situations, match ups. But it's not so much of the fact that I think top players counter pick to win, it's because I'm used to counterpick info to win/do better in other aspects of my life. It's been proven to help.

I've mentioned this before in this thread but I play baseball. I'm a catcher and I also pitch. A pitcher doesn't toss one pitch again and again in hopes to overpower the batter (unless their really good, Mariano Rivera good). It's an effort in futility especially when you can learn another pitch which I'd
equate to learning another character. The dedication and time in practice to toss a pitch consistently is equivalent in my experience. Counterpicking is a viable strategy. Proven to be effective, it just takes longer to see identical success but the depth of success is larger. Why on earth am I gonna be road blocked by a (or many) specific match up(s) or more, when I can just learn another character and reap those rewards.

I'm not gonna toss a fastball against a fastball hitting team, I'm gonna need to toss a change up or slider every once in a while.

Edit:
Mentioned baseball without saying
LetsGoBlueJays!

 

[LancerStaff]

Solo viable as in "you won't need a secondary to make matchups easier": Yes

Solo viable as in "you can pick this fighter and win anything important": No

You just have to work way harder than you need to with other fighters to get anything done with Pit

Dunno about having to work way harder... Isn't he considered to be somewhere around Greninja? But then again, we don't see a ton of Greninjas either.

 

[TDK]

She seems to lack mobility, and approach options, so rush downs are mainly a threat it seems like.

Do you even float? Float gives her quick mobility options and approach, especially when you float just off the ground. Also, turnips aid her approach greatly.

 

[bc1910]

Pit has no gatekeeper, per se. He's not locked out of solo viability by any horrible MUs.

However his strengths are nowhere near as polarising as the top tiers and even compared to other characters of his general strength, he doesn't have particularly amazing tools. Essentially this boils down to him having so many even-ish MUs, that it's really hard to get the necessary win streak with him because he requires a high level of consistency and can't rely on typical top tier cheese.

Technically speaking I would say yes, he's solo viable, but very hard to do anything with.

Although there are characters who I think are better than him despite having gatekeepers, because they have more polarising strengths that make them useful as CP characters and/or very close to solo viable. Pre-patch Luigi would be an example.

And yes I think Pit is about as good as Greninja. Hovering around 15-20th. Greninja is a bit like the Luigi example, his worst MUs are worse than Pit's but he has strengths rooted in his mobility + projectile combination that make him easier to win with than Pit in several MUs. Notably I think he fares a lot better vs the Mario bros, Ryu probably, and maybe ZSS. Greninja also wins very convincingly against mid-low tiers with mobility issues, he can feel like a top tier in some of those MUs.

 

[DblCrest]

Dunno about having to work way harder... Isn't he considered to be somewhere around Greninja? But then again, we don't see a ton of Greninjas either.

When I see 'work harder' I'm always reminded of how people use Strider and Doom together in Marvel compared some of the zero to death teams xD

Also regarding Pit having any particular bad match ups...can't a lot of characters capitalize on his UPB since it has no hurtbox?

 

[warionumbah2]

Also regarding Pit having any particular bad match ups...can't a lot of characters capitalize on his UPB since it has no hurtbox?

Apparently his recovery is untouchable and if you manage to edgeguard/gimp Pit then that Pit player is bad.

 

[LancerStaff]

Apparently his recovery is untouchable and if you manage to edgeguard/gimp Pit then that Pit player is bad.

Peh. Pretty sure you're being sarcastic but it's true. Being able to fire arrows as fast as Luigi fireballs certainly helps...

 

[Y2Kay]

Who goes even with Sheik? I meant to ask back when we where talking Kirby.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Who goes even with Sheik? I meant to ask back when we where talking Kirby.

Kirby and Lucario

 

[Nobie]

I rotate between three different characters depending on the day, situations, match ups. But it's not so much of the fact that I think top players counter pick to win, it's because I'm used to counterpick info to win/do better in other aspects of my life. It's been proven to help.

I've mentioned this before in this thread but I play baseball. I'm a catcher and I also pitch. A pitcher doesn't toss one pitch again and again in hopes to overpower the batter (unless their really good, Mariano Rivera good). It's an effort in futility especially when you can learn another pitch which I'd
equate to learning another character. The dedication and time in practice to toss a pitch consistently is equivalent in my experience. Counterpicking is a viable strategy. Proven to be effective, it just takes longer to see identical success but the depth of success is larger. Why on earth am I gonna be road blocked by a (or many) specific match up(s) or more, when I can just learn another character and reap those rewards.

I'm not gonna toss a fastball against a fastball hitting team, I'm gonna need to toss a change up or slider every once in a while.

Just to be clear, I think counterpicking is a valid strategy, and that if you can learn multiple characters at a high level it's only to your advantage. My issue is rather with the way that lesser players potentially learn the wrong lessons from counterpicking, where they treat it as a kind of rock-paper-scissors scenario and stifle their own development and knowledge in the process.

The classic example is FG Link, throwing projectiles all day long. Someone loses to Link's projectile spam, and they run to a character with a reflector, another projectile-heavy character, etc. However, there's probably more that they could have done with their own character, had they not given up and ran to the obvious counterpick. Instead of exploring all of the options available, both general and character-specific, and learning fundamentally how to fight projectiles, they go for the easy solution. That player who lost to Link ends up only getting surface-level knowledge, and doesn't actually learn how to play a matchup, or indeed what could be changed about their existing play that would help them win better.

While results matter, I think that character specialists (not necessarily loyalists) have an important place in the metas of games because they're the ones most willing to develop individual characters and to push them to their limits. While Armada has made the switch to Fox over the past year, where would Peach have been without his dedication to the character? People were crying about the Luigipocalypse, only for Boss to come in and show just what it means to play Luigi and not rely on easy damage. DKWill takes his DK knowledge from across various games and implements it in DK's horrifying new ding dong form.

Notice the examples of players I gave all vary their character use, so it's not like I'm decrying people who use multiple characters. However, they pushed their characters to the utmost, and their decisions to switch to Fox or Sheik or whatever comes from intimate knowledge of themselves and their character. There's a substantial process that leads to that decision that players learning might not understand, which leads them to thinking, "RPS."

 

[teddystalin]

Apparently his recovery is untouchable and if you manage to edgeguard/gimp Pit then that Pit player is bad.

Peh. Pretty sure you're being sarcastic but it's true. Being able to fire arrows as fast as Luigi fireballs certainly helps...

Who knew Earth was so bad with Pit?

Kirby and Lucario

But really neither of those.

 

[Nu~]

Who knew Earth was so bad with Pit?




But really neither of those.

warionumbah2 was being sarcastic.

Per usual

 

[LancerStaff]

Who knew Earth was so bad with Pit?




But really neither of those.

Har har. Peach is one of the few characters that can actually do something to Pit thanks to her float, and the left underside of Battlefield is janky as heck. Said before that it takes very specific characters to mess with it at all... I'm talking about against a Mario, a Sheik, a Marth. Characters with normal offstage games.

 

[DblCrest]

Kirby and Lucario

You're probably going to be told it's a a stretch saying that. (Or jumped on by Sheik mains!)

Kirby stealing needles would help. Lucario has aura & rage if Sheik doesn't KO him fast enough.

 

[teddystalin]

warionumbah2 was being sarcastic.

Per usual

Oh trust me, I know. That was more to rib LancerStaff a little.

...To offer a genuine response to Lancer's earlier question, I do think Pit is solo viable. Having one of the best Sheik MUs among the high tiers definitely counts for something. But Pit's real calling is as the ultimate secondary just as Luigi was the ultimate pocket. He can't cheese his way through any games like any top tiers, but can patch up a lot of weak MUs with strong fundamentals. Tbh I feel like we should see more of him than we do - if a Fire Emblem character had his exact same moveset, it would be the most popular character in the game.

 

[Antonykun]

Apparently his recovery is untouchable and if you manage to edgeguard/gimp Pit then that Pit player is bad.

Unfortunately, as a Villager main, I will never be able to face good pits.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Do you even float? Float gives her quick mobility options and approach, especially when you float just off the ground. Also, turnips aid her approach greatly.

Anyone like Fox or someone else with projectile forces her to approach, she's still not the fastest anyways.
I know she has a couple AT that can somewhat help with that, but I'm saying overall according to the order of all characters running speed, walking speed, airspeed her mobility is still technically below average, but that's not the biggest deal I guess.

 

[DavemanCozy]

50:50?

How is this MU even?

Kirby is not viable. He has been talked about before in this thread, like 50 pages back. He has good frame data and good combos, but poor mobility and lacks an approach to really let him apply his neutral. He may have quirks in the matchup vs Sheik, but no way does he go even with her when she beats him in overall mobility, range and neutral. If Kirby had, say, Luigi's fireball or a projectile to let him zone and help with his poor movement, then he'd be a more significant threat in the meta.

 

[DunnoBro]

Lucario beats bad sheiks who don't abuse his weak neutral, recovery, and their kill set-ups.

Kirby is a MU the sheik needs to be familiar with (particularly how to play the neutral and how to stop/extend combos safely) but it's obviously her favor. IMO one of his better top tier MUs imo though.

 

[Wintropy]

Yes, I think Pit is solo-viable in that he doesn't have any "unwinnable" matchups. There's nothing that will make you tear your hair out and eat it from sheer unbridled rage.

No, I don't think Pit has anything going for him beyond consistency. It's true that he has even-ish matchups with most of the cast (even the relevant characters) and is great at changing his strategies on the fly, but he can't cheese his way to victory. You need to outplay your opponent more often than not.

Yes, Pit has a great recovery in terms of distance and ability to return to the stage. He has two if you count side-b.

No, it isn't impossible to gimp and more people need to try doing this. A good Pit will weigh up their options and recover in the optimal direction to ensure it minimises the danger of getting gimped, but it doesn't mean you're a bad Pit if you do get gimped. Pro tip: side-b can be gimped. Try it!

Yes, I think Pit is as good as Greninja in terms of potential viability.

No, I don't think there's any reason to compare the two beyond that.

Yes, it's possible Pit has an even or near-even matchup with Sheik (disclaimer: POSSIBLE, not proven).

No, that doesn't make him a top-tier threat because ZSS and Pikachu still do wicked things to him.

 

[Zelder]

50:50?

How is this MU even?

Kirby is not viable. He has been talked about before in this thread, like 50 pages back. He has good frame data and good combos, but poor mobility and lacks an approach to really let him apply his neutral. He may have quirks in the matchup vs Sheik, but no way does he go even with her when she beats him in overall mobility, range and neutral. If Kirby had, say, Luigi's fireball or a projectile to let him zone and help with his poor movement, then he'd be a more significant threat in the meta.

Hmm yes but have you considered that when Kirby is crouching the match becomes 90:10

 

[Yikarur]

I think the closest to even with Sheik are Rosalina, Diddy, Pikachu and Sonic.

 

[DblCrest]

How does Ryu do? I think Emblem lord touched on that some time ago.

 

[kaz99]

I've heard that Villager does well against Sheik. However, if the Sheik really gets in, I can imagine it being very difficult for Villager to deal with.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Ugh Lets at least agree Kirby is semi-viable right?
He can be decent in some MUs including top tiers that other characters may not do so well against, but there will be some characters where it may overall be better to choose a secondary, so if you were to play someone like.......mega man or.....I guess anyone who has trouble with rush downs or something.

He's not completely unviable for sure he can do better then a good chunk of characters.
@Triple R you finished BH 5 right? What do you say about Kirby? I really hope you can answer through your own words soon.
I'm curious....what was discussion about characters in Melee and Brawl like?
For instance Zelda on the first tier list was considered one of the best characters in the game, why did people think this at first? Just curious.
In Brawl someone like ICs weren't as high as they are now, was it because people didn't know about Chaingrabs?
Brb

 

[TheJolteon]

I'm sure Mewtwo and Roslina's gigantic hitboxes prevent them from doing so.

Also, Mewtwo isn't floaty.

Im pretty sure he is floaty

 

[biribiri]

How does Ryu do? I think Emblem lord touched on that some time ago.

Last I checked he said it was 4:6. Sheik has needles and edgeguarding on her side, but Ryu's punish game and utilt lock makes the hits he gets in count. He gets more damage off of aerial trades than her as well.

 

[Amadeus9]

Im pretty sure he is floaty

He's not. His fall speed is average. He's just huge and light. He only seems floaty because of the weird physics on his double jump

 

[Planty]

I think the closest to even with Sheik are Rosalina, Diddy, Pikachu and Sonic.

Rosalina lost to Sheik pre patch, but it was kinda doable.

Post-patch, the matchup became quite a bit worse. Because Luma's attacks now have less shieldstun (yes, LESS) D-tilt is actually unsafe on Sheik's shield (and D-tilt was an awesome move in the matchup). We basically lost our main tool in neutral.

Rosalina's biggest weakness is that she has trouble when people get in. Sure the occasional, inconsistent Luma breakup will happen, but for the most part, you get damaged a ton when Sheik gets in on you. Rosalina has been compared quite a bit to Mewtwo. Both are huge and light, but the reason that Rosalina is put so high up on tier lists is because of Luma. The issue in the Sheik matchup arises when you realize that due to Sheik's new found OOS options and general safety and speed, she just... ignores Luma, in a sense, and exploits each and every single one of Rosalina's weaknesses.

This put in with the fact that Rosalina can't really do much in advantaged VS Sheik for the occasional time where she does win neutral (Due to Sheik being impossible to juggle and having the best recovery in the game) and there's not much going for Rosalina other than a killpower advantage (And due to Sheik being impossible to punish or edgeguard, most of your kills will have to come from reads.)