Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Amadeus9]

http://esports-runner.com/ssb4/キャラクターランキング/

eSports Runner's 1.1.2 Tier List (Based on both Japanese and American tournament results, or at least they allege)
Custom Mii Fighters have both size and move customization.
No ordering within tiers.

A+ (10) (custom)
A (9.5)
A- (9.0)
B+ (8.5)
B (8.0)(custom)
B- (7.5)
C+ (7.0)(custom)
C (6.5)
C- (6.0)
D (5.5)

Ngl mii placings on this list are hilarious and completely invalidate the list. Someone put the mii fighters where they are on this list... smh.

 

[Jucchan]

Wholy cow. Just Wow. Mewtwo better than Marth, Zard, WFT, Kirby, Falco, and Lucas? I love Mew2 but c'mon. Sonic second best? That's a little too much. And why are Dark Pit and Pit worlds apart? Jesus.......

There's no ordering within tiers. Everything in the same row is a tie.

 

[Y2Kay]

Also, why are custom miis given a placement on the tier list? Shouldn't they strictly be for Custom tier lists unless the smash community decides to change the consensus?

 

[the king of murder]

Villager reminds me of Snake in Brawl. All about stage control, placing all kinds of deadly traps and projectiles around but he trades survivabilty for smaller hurtbox. Heck his Up-b recovery is similar too. I am not sure if he is as good as Snake but he gives me the same impression.

Also I don't buy this "Bowser has no representation" stuff. I know of at least Le Troof and Calmanimal attending tournies and there may be some more. There is also Vex but he is more of a hard hitter main than a Bowser main.

Ganon and Bowser are both not good because they both suffer from your average fatty weakness and some. Both recoveries suck all kinds of ass too. Bowsers recovery is only marginally better. I don't think they are super low tiers like everyone loves to claim either but whatever.

Bowser, is better damage on hit and kills earlier

I did some calculations and added up the total damage output of Bowser, Ike and Ganon's moves and Ganon has a total of 353, Ike a total of 276 while Bowser has a total of 320. Didn't count customs and floor/get up attacks. I always used sweetspot and assumed multi hits to always link(which benefited Bowser more than Ganon). WP, an impractical move, added up quite a lot though but considering that Ganon's practical moves have generally more power than Bowser's and the fact that Ganon can rack up damage a lot quicker because he can juggle and combo a lot better, I am confident to say, you are very wrong sir.

My calculation is not flawless though, it's a bit wonky but I have calculated it more than one time. Generally speaking in terms of damage output and killpower Ganon>Bowser=Ike(makes up lower damage output with combo ability, high knockback and his practical moves do around the same amount).

 

[Y2Kay]

There's no ordering within tiers. Everything in the same row is a tie.

I changed the comment, but it still doesn't really change my point tho

 

[meleebrawler]

Wholy cow. Just Wow. Mewtwo better than Marth, Zard, WFT, Kirby, Falco, and Lucas? I love Mew2 but c'mon. Sonic second best? That's a little too much. And why are Dark Pit and Pit worlds apart? Jesus.......

No order within tiers again.

Edit: Ninja'd by @Juuchan.
Still a one tier difference isn't that big considering the amount.

 

[Y2Kay]

No order within tiers again.

I know I just changed it a second ago lol

 

[G. Stache]

So, right after the patch happened, a few people were all theorizing on how Bowser Jr. was going to become a much bigger threat with the new shield changes. What happened to all the hype? Is he just not as good as we thought, or do we just not care enough? Also, regarding the heavy discussion, let me put in my few takes on it: charizard is better than bowser, but is still crap thanks to this patch so who cares? 90% of the time people use Ganon is because he's from LoZ/you like disrespecting people. If you want to win, use Falcon. Simple as that. Also DK is good. Why do these meaningless discussions go for so long? Sorry for being blunt, but it's literally: 'low tier character x is better than low tier character y because of these various reasons.' But why they don't finish such statements with 'but we still all get bodied by good players who know what they're doing and use a half-decent character so who cares?' is beyond me. I wouldn't be so annoyed if these low tier discussions didn't always turn into pissing contests. Tell you what: you wanna use bowser or Ganon: who's stopping you? Go ahead and use him. Hell, I'll even admit that they're fun to use. But by no means are they mid tier. Don't expect them to do anything significant outside of locals and regionals and don't complain when someone says that character z is blatantly better. Because it's most likely true since you're using a bad character (keep in mind I've been making an effort to use both players, so the only bias I could have is for them).

 

[RIP_Lucas]

http://esports-runner.com/ssb4/キャラクターランキング/

eSports Runner's 1.1.2 Tier List (Based on both Japanese and American tournament results, or at least they allege)
Custom Mii Fighters have both size and move customization.
No ordering within tiers.

A+ (10) (custom)
A (9.5)
A- (9.0)
B+ (8.5)
B (8.0)(custom)
B- (7.5)
C+ (7.0)(custom)
C (6.5)
C- (6.0)
D (5.5)

Ike and Lucas are both criminally underrated, but we've talked about that before, Japan for some reason insists Ikr is bottom tier while Lucas just doesn't get rep.

Besides those two, pretty much everything is about right. I'd change a few minor things like move Pikachu up one and similar small moves, but this is good enough to get a general feel for the current state of characters

 

[Y2Kay]

Also, regarding the heavy discussion, let me put in my few takes on it: charizard is better than bowser, but is still crap thanks to this patch so who cares? .

I've heard this patch has helped him, b/c of nair and fair are safer on shield, but I could be wrong. Charizard definitely isn't crap anymore, he's the bottom of mid tier at worst, everyone just assumes he's bad b/c he doesn't have a cool combo with a dumb name and has big hurtbox

 

[G. Stache]

I've heard this patch has helped him, b/c of nair and fair are safer on shield, but I could be wrong. Charizard definitely isn't crap anymore, he's the bottom of mid tier at worst, everyone just assumes he's bad b/c he doesn't have a cool combo with a dumb name and has big hurtbox

Good point, but I've also heard that shield was his only approach tactic. And with his only approach being crippled, I find it skeptical for him being a strong mid tier contender. Obviously I don't play a whole lot of charizard, so maybe he did get buffed. But even then, he has multiple glaring flaws that prevent him from being a real threat. And if his aerials are safer on shield, then that's great. But are they totally safe on shield? Because if not, quick reactions and a character with good mobility can still capitalize on the punish. (Also, replays of a charizard doing things at a tourney would help)

 

[Y2Kay]

Good point, but I've also heard that shield was his only approach tactic. And with his only approach being crippled, I find it skeptical for him being a strong mid tier contender. Obviously I don't play a whole lot of charizard, so maybe he did get buffed. But even then, he has multiple glaring flaws that prevent him from being a real threat. And if his aerials are safer on shield, then that's great. But are they totally safe on shield? Because if not, quick reactions and a character with good mobility can still capitalize on the punish. (Also, replays of a charizard doing things at a tourney would help)

I'll have to go in the lab some to see how safe those aerials are, but charizard can approach with a full hop flamethrower too, so there's that. And good luck finding Zard replays, Because I can't find any recent ones. I'll check again.

 

[Nobie]

"Why haven't all of these amazing changes happened after the patch?"

Because the patch is a week old, geez. Did you see how long it took pre-patch for people to REALLY start to acknowledge Ryu?

As for Ganondorf vs. Bowser, I don't know who's better and on some level I don't care. I think what's confusing this argument is that people forget how different they are as characters despite being both classic heavies.

Bowser has moves that hurt, and moves that kill, and in that way he's similar to characters of all weight classes. You use jab, dtilt, and ftilt in neutral, you have Up B OoS, you rack up damage and then start to really lay it in with your strongest attacks, such as bair, f-smash, Down B etc. etc.. Since Brawl, he was buffed to have Tough Guy armor, and some higher movement specs while still retaining relatively bad frame data.

Ganondorf...almost EVERYTHING he does is a kill move. Every move that's used at low percents to damage magically converts into a nasty and fairly reliable stock ender once a certain threshold is reached. Unlike Bowser, since Brawl they buffed him by MAKING HIS KILL MOVES EVEN KILLIER. Like, Ganondorf has more kill moves than non-kill moves. That's part of where his problems lie, but at the same time I think people tend to be a little more afraid of rage Ganondorf than they are of rage Bowser for the same reason.

 

[Jamurai]

I feel like we should have a checklist for tier lists where if they meet one of the criteria then we collectively agree to not discuss argue about bash it. This may save on the pages of clutter we currently have, half the posts of the previous couple of pages being "why is this character where it is LOL?" I can contribute some points if you like.

• Dark Pit being a tier lower than Pit
• Any traditional "heavy" bar DK being above mid tier
• Greninja being below high tier
• Ness being top 5
• idk I'm sure you get my point

It'd be cool if we could refrain from bashing not-well-thought-out posts and tier lists for internet points, and instead, just ignore them.

(at the risk of cluttering with this post myself...)

 

[Vipermoon]

I feel like we should have a checklist for tier lists where if they meet one of the criteria then we collectively agree to not discuss argue about bash it. This may save on the pages of clutter we currently have, half the posts of the previous couple of pages being "why is this character where it is LOL?" I can contribute some points if you like.

• Dark Pit being a tier lower than Pit
• Any traditional "heavy" bar DK being above mid tier
• Greninja being below high tier
• Ness being top 5
• idk I'm sure you get my point

It'd be cool if we could refrain from bashing not-well-thought-out posts and tier lists for internet points, and instead, just ignore them.

(at the risk of cluttering with this post myself...)

Well that would limit the bounds of people's opinions. It's telling people that they cannot question certain things, effectively limiting this thread's evolution.

I have a better idea. Let's not post tier lists. They don't matter anyway. Just talk about character viability.

 

[Antonykun]

http://esports-runner.com/ssb4/キャラクターランキング/

eSports Runner's 1.1.2 Tier List (Based on both Japanese and American tournament results, or at least they allege)
Custom Mii Fighters have both size and move customization.
No ordering within tiers.

A+ (10) (custom)
A (9.5)
A- (9.0)
B+ (8.5)
B (8.0)(custom)
B- (7.5)
C+ (7.0)(custom)
C (6.5)
C- (6.0)
D (5.5)

It's very obvious that Swordfailure is trash incarnate if he's worse than Brawler. Therefruit Swordfailure needs to get buffed

GGranted this list apparently based on performance and seeing how obtuse Swordfighter can be I. Can understand.

 

[Nobie]

Let's also not forget that the most recent tier list posted is a RESULTS-BASED tier list.

You want to know why Mewtwo is not at the bottom? While I don't know which tournaments they're referencing, he has decent representation in Japan, and in the US he does make waves in regionals and locals.

LoF Blue took The Break Weekly just a few weeks ago using Mewtwo.

Many moons ago, Trela rocked a Mewtwo and got quite far too (then again he did the same with 1111 Mii Swordfighter pre-patchES).

Mew^2 is still bringing Mewtwo pretty far in his locals and regionals too.

I think a results-based tier list is inherently flawed, but I'm not going to argue that X or Y SHOULD be higher, unless it's to argue that certain tournaments weren't taken into account, or that the formula used might have some issues. In a results-based tier list, the only thing that will move a character higher is them placing higher, end of story.

I also think people have this very strange idea of how patches/meta development should change tier lists. People seem to want a shuffling, where a once low-tier character shoots up and is now high-tier because of some buffs, but no one seems to care about whether or not the disparities in viability between characters are being compressed. I think this is what plagues a lot of tier list talk: people only look at rankings and not how wide or thin the differences are between characters.

Everyone seems to want a revolution, when the slow march of progress has been there all along.

 

[teddystalin]

Why do these meaningless discussions go for so long?

This thread is secretly a social experiment designed to answer that very question.

 

[Zage]

http://esports-runner.com/ssb4/キャラクターランキング/

eSports Runner's 1.1.2 Tier List (Based on both Japanese and American tournament results, or at least they allege)
Custom Mii Fighters have both size and move customization.
No ordering within tiers.

A+ (10) (custom)
A (9.5)
A- (9.0)
B+ (8.5)
B (8.0)(custom)
B- (7.5)
C+ (7.0)(custom)
C (6.5)
C- (6.0)
D (5.5)

Arguably the weirdest tier list I've ever seen, have Yoshi, Lucario and Custom Brawler really gotten enough tournament placements to warrant being placed that high?

Oddly enough the first tier list that has Pac-man's placement in line with my own and has the only other two zoners I can see that outdo him in his own camping game above him (ROB and Toon Link).

 

[LancerStaff]

Dark Pit being a tier lower than Pit

Considering this is (supposedly) a results based tier list, I think it was unavoidable. In any given situation Pit is safer and probably better.

 

[TurboLink]

Does anyone here think Tether grab users in general need more reward from getting a grab?

Tether grabs carry a lot of risk but not enough reward.

 

[Amadeus9]

Does anyone here think Tether grab users in general need more reward from getting a grab?

Tether grabs carry a lot of risk but not enough reward.

Um what

Zss?

 

[TurboLink]

Um what

Zss?

Well I did say in general, did I not?

 

[meleebrawler]

Does anyone here think Tether grab users in general need more reward from getting a grab?

Tether grabs carry a lot of risk but not enough reward.

The only person for which that is true is Samus, and even she has her blinding pummel and basic combos from it.
(Stuff like Yoshi's tongue, Pac-Man's Galaga beam or Villager's net aren't tethers since they can't zair with them).

 

[Baby_Sneak]

The only person for which that is true is Samus, and even she has her blinding pummel and basic combos from it.
(Stuff like Yoshi's tongue, Pac-Man's Galaga beam or Villager's net aren't tethers since they can't zair with them).

toon link tho

 

[meleebrawler]

toon link tho

From a damage racking perspective I suppose, but that bthrow is a heck of a kill throw.

 

[TDK]

Does anyone here think Tether grab users in general need more reward from getting a grab?

Tether grabs carry a lot of risk but not enough reward.

Toon Link's back throw kills at very low precents. [not Ness back throw low, but low enough]

 

[Seagull Joe]

I think Sonic loses to Yoshi and is even with Wario. Little Mac and Samus are also more than just a "slight" advantage, Sonic pretty much hard counters those two tbh. And Sheik is probably closer to even than that ... but I have very few qualms with that spread otherwise.

Agreed. Unsure about . I don't think hard counters him. His armored moves outright beat spindash. If wants to time him out then he probably could tho.

IIRC Seagull joe used to claim yoshi beat sonic too. I wasn't so sure about before but now it seems pretty clear. Yoshi's always putting out a big meaty hitbox that makes spindash pretty unsafe to begin with, (before a dash-in shield would make these unsafe though) but he also just chases a sonic who spindashed on a shield hard too. DA and Usmash for the landing and egg for jump aways. Sonic's other neutral options are hindered similarly as well.

Yoshi also isn't very susceptible to sonic's normal kill methods. (Heavy, but floaty makes both bthrow and uair strings less reliable kill set-ups) And I think pressures him offstage better than most characters. Yoshi's great at edgeguarding vertical recoveries. (Though pretty awful at horizontal imo)

This combined with the fact yoshi actually dictates the pace of the match with his air speed means he's more capable of abusing the clock than sonic in this MU on most stages.

Always said this. 's advantage in this matchup is that he does not have to approach super often and can hold a lead. His disadvantage is landing and killing . Whenever I've played I have gone even with them tho (KDB, Raptor, Dunnobro). I feel it's at least 45-55 's favor.

's worst matchup is definitely . He just can't get in or land vs her. Really sucks. I used to think was bad till I realized the only thing one needs to look out for is grab, which is spotdodgeable/rollable on reaction. Played the matchup really stupidly before.

 

[Radical Larry]

@Rizen Sorry, didn't know. But at least B-Air's good for when you go off stage with Wizard's Foot.

TurboLink Ahem...Link has D-Throw > U-Tilt/Smash/Air, D-Throw > N-Air, B-Throw edge-guard setups, and his U-Throw can kill greatly with rage. Lucas has literally 3 kill throws and 1 throw that is a kill setup. Samus has D-Throw > N-Air/F-Air/U-Air setups, B-Throw edge-guard setups, F-Throw can possibly string into Neutral Special. Toon Link's got that kill throw going for him. ZSS has that setup throw on all her throws.

There's a lot of rewards for these characters if they get a good grab to throw option.

 

[juddy96]

Arguably the weirdest tier list I've ever seen, have Yoshi, Lucario and Custom Brawler really gotten enough tournament placements to warrant being placed that high?

Oddly enough the first tier list that has Pac-man's placement in line with my own and has the only other two zoners I can see that outdo him in his own camping game above him (ROB and Toon Link).

The players you would want to look up for those characters in Japan are Kei (custom brawler), DIO and Aiba (Yoshi), and Gomamugitya (Lucario) on SHI-G youtube

 

[Boney]

toon link tho

He gets a decent back throw kill, no combos hurt him through.
Link get's a few guaranteed follow ups and an ok up throw kill.
Lucas gets down throw combos throughout and it can even kill confirm and he gets an okish back throw and up throw kill throws.

Samus is the one that gets eff'd up the most because lol samus. She gets a combo throw from 0 to 40% that characters with high air mobility can always di out and that's it.

 

[Wintropy]

Also, regarding the heavy discussion, let me put in my few takes on it: charizard is better than bowser, but is still crap thanks to this patch so who cares? 90% of the time people use Ganon is because he's from LoZ/you like disrespecting people. If you want to win, use Falcon. Simple as that. Also DK is good. Why do these meaningless discussions go for so long? Sorry for being blunt, but it's literally: 'low tier character x is better than low tier character y because of these various reasons.' But why they don't finish such statements with 'but we still all get bodied by good players who know what they're doing and use a half-decent character so who cares?' is beyond me. I wouldn't be so annoyed if these low tier discussions didn't always turn into pissing contests. Tell you what: you wanna use bowser or Ganon: who's stopping you? Go ahead and use him. Hell, I'll even admit that they're fun to use. But by no means are they mid tier. Don't expect them to do anything significant outside of locals and regionals and don't complain when someone says that character z is blatantly better. Because it's most likely true since you're using a bad character (keep in mind I've been making an effort to use both players, so the only bias I could have is for them).

Can't debate what you just said, but do bear in mind that not everybody necessarily plays to win. Quite a few people enter tournaments because they love the experience and want to get better with their chosen character(s).

No denying that picking a good character put you in a better position to win, but for certain folk, winning in itself isn't satisfying. Winning with your own character is.

 

[DunnoBro]

Sonic is absolutely ass for mac because no matter where, when, or which direction sonic grabs him it's a really potent edgeguard situation. Even sonic's consistet oos punish/poke tool of ftilt puts mac at a really bad angle.

Mac's only saving grace in that MU is Jab beating spindash but sonic can shield dash grab it if used too heavily so it's not enough to dictate the pace of the match.

Sonic's spaced fsmash also covers ALL mac's recovery options and the downward angle will kill mac at pretty much any percent by the ledge. Dsmash also catches mac's upb harshly well too, even OoS if not perfectly spaced.

Not even mentioning that ko punch set-ups just.. Don't work well on sonic. He can spring out of dtilt set-ups and keep up with mac's mobility so you can't really corner him.

It's doable if the sonic tries to abuse spindash (like they tend to do at low/mid-level) As Mac's jab and landing coverage options make spindash just.. Not worth it, but Sonic gets so much off grab and safe pokes in this MU it makes up for it imo

So, right after the patch happened, a few people were all theorizing on how Bowser Jr. was going to become a much bigger threat with the new shield changes. What happened to all the hype?

Dude it's been like two weeks since the update. Metas don't develop overnight.

I don't know anything about jr's alleged rise in viability but geez lol

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

This is my personal tier list, which is based more on the characters than usage in tournaments; some characters do change tiers through customs, and those are listed twice; once with a (custom) and once without them

A-Tier:
A-High -, , ,
A-Mid - , /, , ,
A-Low - , , , , (customs), , , ,

B-Tier:
B-High - /, , , /, , (customs)
B-Mid - , , /, , , (customs)
B-Low - , , , , ,,

C-Tier:
C-High - , , , , , (customs)
C-Mid - (customs), , (customs), ,
C-Low - , , , , ,

D-Tier:
D-High - , ,
D-Mid - , ,
D-Low -

I'll explain my choices in a spoiler note below:

Spoiler: Explanations

- Charizard becomes a different animal with customs on; Dragon Rush gives him some much-needed horizontal recovery options that will never potentially backfire like Flare Blitz can. Plus it still retains the ability to cancel out projectiles, making it pretty close to a straight upgrade to the standard Flare Blitz. He's one of the fastest heavies in the game and his jabs and aerials are pretty solid for a heavy character, too; plus his grab is ridiculously fast, and he now posesses both a kill throw (Up-Throw) and combo throw (Down-Throw), too. Even without customs, Charizard is still only a little worse than DK...but with customs, he's easily B-High at the moment. The buffs he got have really changed Charizard into a solid heavy character. The only thing keeping me from putting him in the top of B-High is his issues with fighting Zamus and Shiek.

- Like Charizard, Ganon is a different beast with customs. Unlike Charizard, though, Ganondorf's customs don't make up for his drawbacks. His power is great, and Wizard's Dropkick is a phenomenal recovery move...but Ganon is still outclassed by Falcon because he's so heavy and his recovery is lackluster even with WD in play. Fighting Ganon is like fighting Falcon, only much slower, heavier and just overall easier to hit, and he doesn't have much (if any) superarmor. He's still not very viable in this game, alas.

- I put Little Mac above non-customs Ganondorf because Mac's attacks are fast and powerful, and you can't easily telegraph them from a mile away. All of the superarmor Mac has also makes him better than the 'Dorf, even though his recovery is technically worse. Mac's playstyle also means he won't be quite as vulnurable as Ganon is after whiffing a move. He's by no means great, but he's better than most people make him out to be. His speed also makes him far better than Dorf. He still gets bopped HARD by Sonic, though, which combined with his pretty bad recovery and poor matchups against higher-tier characters make him pretty bad.

 

[TurboLink]

This is my personal tier list, which is based more on the characters than usage in tournaments; some characters do change tiers through customs, and those are listed twice; once with a (custom) and once without them

A-Tier:
A-High -, , ,
A-Mid - , /, , ,
A-Low - , , , , (customs), , , ,

B-Tier:
B-High - /, , , /, , (customs)
B-Mid - , , , , (customs)
B-Low - , , , , ,,

C-Tier:
C-High - , , , , , (customs)
C-Mid - (customs), , (customs), ,
C-Low - , , , , ,

D-Tier:
D-High - , ,
D-Mid - , ,
D-Low -

I'll explain my choices in a spoiler note below:

Spoiler: Explanations

- Charizard becomes a different animal with customs on; Dragon Rush gives him some much-needed horizontal recovery options that will never potentially backfire like Flare Blitz can. Plus it still retains the ability to cancel out projectiles, making it pretty close to a straight upgrade to the standard Flare Blitz. He's one of the fastest heavies in the game and his jabs and aerials are pretty solid for a heavy character, too; plus his grab is ridiculously fast, and he now posesses both a kill throw (Up-Throw) and combo throw (Down-Throw), too. Even without customs, Charizard is still only a little worse than DK...but with customs, he's easily B-High at the moment. The buffs he got have really changed Charizard into a solid heavy character. The only thing keeping me from putting him in the top of B-High is his issues with fighting Zamus and Shiek.

- Like Charizard, Ganon is a different beast with customs. Unlike Charizard, though, Ganondorf's customs don't make up for his drawbacks. His power is great, and Wizard's Dropkick is a phenomenal recovery move...but Ganon is still outclassed by Falcon because he's so heavy and his recovery is lackluster even with WD in play. Fighting Ganon is like fighting Falcon, only much slower, heavier and just overall easier to hit, and he doesn't have much (if any) superarmor. He's still not very viable in this game, alas.

- I put Little Mac above non-customs Ganondorf because Mac's attacks are fast and powerful, and you can't easily telegraph them from a mile away. All of the superarmor Mac has also makes him better than the 'Dorf, even though his recovery is technically worse. Mac's playstyle also means he won't be quite as vulnurable as Ganon is after whiffing a move. He's by no means great, but he's better than most people make him out to be. His speed also makes him far better than Dorf. He still gets bopped HARD by Sonic, though, which combined with his pretty bad recovery and poor matchups against higher-tier characters make him pretty bad.

Seriously dude?

 

[Radical Larry]

Seriously dude?

What do you expect? He put Duck Hunt and Gunner too high.
And he put the Pits in two different tiers, when they're almost the exact same character. Though Dark Pit has the better side B because it kills earlier than Pit's does because on certain stages, save Halberd, Dark Pit's Electroshock Arm is better to use because of many stages having less wide blast lines rather than lower upper blastlines.

 

[Routa]

AHMG! Overall Wario is clearly better than Biker Wario!

Didn't we agree not to post personal tier lists?

 

[Cereal Bawks]

https://twitter.com/SS_S_T_H/status/654524200988749824

Komorikiri's Sonic Matchup Chart:

Disadvantageous 4.8:5.2 or worse


Even 5.1:4.9 ~ 4.9:5.1


Slightly Advantageous 5.2:4.8 ~ 5.4:4.6


Advantageous 5.5:4.5 or better

Isn't it generally agreed upon that Ike has the advantage against Sanic? Or at least it is in the Ike boards.

 

[Vermanubis]

Ganon would be significantly better if he had Falcon or Bowser's dash grab range. He wouldn't be high tier but it would mean his entire neutral game wouldn't be countered by one defensive option.

Ganon has better results than Bowser and Zard because those two don't have dedicated high level players. Kalm and Verm were good players in Brawl and carried it over. Bowser never had a flag bearer in Brawl. Zard technically had Reflex, but playing PT was basically being a Squirtle main.

Discussion threads are pointless if people are going to play the results card everytime someone contests them. I can't honestly believe people think Dorf's kit is better than Zard's or Bowser's it's so embarrassing that non-casual players actually think that lol.
You have to respect him, which is why you don't commit to anything most of the time.

Flame choke is reactable if they're in neutral. You'd have to be super close to them and trick with a pivot or something to land it, but at that range it's incredibly unsafe for Ganon anyway.

While everyone involved's brought up good points, I have to agree here. I genuinely don't feel Ganon's better than Zard or Bowser. They're all pretty close, but when Dre mentioned us being shut down by one defensive option, well... he's not wrong. Choke is okay for getting by shields, but against, say, an Ike, choke is next to useless. The reason Ganon so violently undulates between ostensibly viably and barely marginal is because he's, by his nature, inconsistent because if someone plays respectfully and chooses the right defensive options (shield), Ganon's success becomes predicated on guessing. If Ganon manages to circumvent a shield, he then has to make 1:4 chance guesses unless they have a guaranteed follow-up and don't tech.

That's not to say he's bad or nonviable. Just that I think Bowser and Zard overall have more consistent means of dealing with their problems that don't involve extremely unsafe guesses. Ganon enjoys MUCH greater payoff for said successes (which is why I think it feels wrong sometimes to say he's any sort of bad without how quickly he can reverse a match), but I just don't know if higher payoff with lower probability justifies him over lower payoff with higher probabiltiy (i.e. consistency)

 

[Dastardly Ridleylash]

Seriously dude?

What? Charizard is legit pretty good now. He's one of the fastest heavies, he has multiple moves that can counter projectiles, his grab is fast, he has a kill throw and combo throw, his jab and aerials are quick to come out, even without DR he's got a decent recovery and his kill power is good. He only really gets bopped by Zamus, Sheik and Sonic.
Again, let's go over all the buffs Zard got from 1.0.4 to now;

1.0.4:
- Five frames of intangibility have been added to Charizard's head in certain situations.

1.0.6:
- Up throw's damage increased: 6% (hit 1), 2% (throw) → 8% (hit 1), 3% (throw).
- Fly's knockback increased.
- Down tilt's start-up and endlag decreased.

1.0.8:
- Neutral attack connects more reliably.
- Forward aerial's hitbox is larger and lasts longer.
- Up throw has significantly more knockback, making it a viable KOing option. This is a significant buff, as it is now the strongest up throw in the game.
- Down throw has significantly less knockback, making it Charizard's best combo starter at low percents. Although it is less reliable as a KOing option, this is completely mitigated due to the same update's aforementioned buff of Charizard's up throw.

1.1.0:
- Forward tilt's sweetspot's damage increased: 10% → 11%.
- One of forward tilt's three sourspot hitboxes is now a sweetspot, which essentially makes it larger.
- Down tilt been given a windbox that pushes opponents inwards (pre-animation modifier frames 6-9).
- Back aerial's landing lag decreased: 36 → 33.
- Down throw's end frame decreased: 72 → 70.

1.1.1
- Sinking Skull's damage increased: 10% → 12% (ground), 9% → 10% (air).
- Sinking Skull's endlag reduced by 5 frames.

Zer0 himself has said he doesn't exactly know where Charizard stands, but he thinks Charizard is at least mid-tier as of 1.1.0.;