Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Pyr]

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Ganondorf says it starts on frame 16, that's not realistically reactable (it's the same amount of time for ZSS's grab to come out which is also not reactable). i wrote more about it here

1) Why are you standing right next to Ganon's massive body to make it hit on it's first active frame?
2) How are you not counting the 2 years it takes him to reach you half-way across the move's duration?
3) Human reaction time, grand average, is 268 milliseconds. That means human reaction time would be about 16 frames on average, or on the line of human reaction. Source: http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics

I'd expect better players to be able to react to it.

 

[RIP_Lucas]

I get grabbed by DK at 80 all the time and live, up air or not.


It isn't THAT strong.

Sorry to bring attention to this again, but about how much rage is this with?

 

[Y2Kay]

@DanGR That's .......... a lot harder than you make it sound

 

[T4ylor]

Trifroze Zss would still have Choco backing her up

 

[Y2Kay]

Ganon and Zard are both good at edgeguarding. Ganon's probably a bit better overall. Flamethrower is a great poke for Zard but it's not really all that much better than Ganon's better moves in neutral. Zard's other options are pretty limited, and he can't pressure shields like Ganondorf can. Zard's dash speed does help in neutral, but it matters way more for his punish game than neutral. Really Zard lacks spacing tools in neutral, especially in the air, while Ganondorf's aerials are much more formidable. Both of them were about equal in viabiity as of 1.1.0, but Zard got hurt more since he has fewer spacing tools and relied more on OOS than Dorf, and didn't gain nearly as much in terms of shield pressure. Also Ganon has Nair and Wizkick to threaten opponents with in disadvantage. They're about the same when it comes to difficulty landing.

Could you specifiy which moves ganon has that are better in neutral. Zard can space with Dtilt and Ftilt, and Zaard can land safer than Ganon with b-reversed rock smash

 

[Dre89]

Ganon would be significantly better if he had Falcon or Bowser's dash grab range. He wouldn't be high tier but it would mean his entire neutral game wouldn't be countered by one defensive option.

Ganon has better results than Bowser and Zard because those two don't have dedicated high level players. Kalm and Verm were good players in Brawl and carried it over. Bowser never had a flag bearer in Brawl. Zard technically had Reflex, but playing PT was basically being a Squirtle main.

Discussion threads are pointless if people are going to play the results card everytime someone contests them. I can't honestly believe people think Dorf's kit is better than Zard's or Bowser's it's so embarrassing that non-casual players actually think that lol.

Flame Choke is burst movement that threatens shield. Fair and Bair are safe on shield now, and Aerial Wizkick breaks weakened shields. It's also not true that Ganondorf can't do anything if you don't commit. He might not have anything reliable, but you do have to respect him. Frankly his approach options are better than Charizard's. Ganondorf is still bad but probably slightly better than Zard now that shields are nerfed and Zard's OOS is less useful.

You have to respect him, which is why you don't commit to anything most of the time.

Flame choke is reactable if they're in neutral. You'd have to be super close to them and trick with a pivot or something to land it, but at that range it's incredibly unsafe for Ganon anyway.

 

[Vipermoon]

1) Why are you standing right next to Ganon's massive body to make it hit on it's first active frame?
2) How are you not counting the 2 years it takes him to reach you half-way across the move's duration?
3) Human reaction time, grand average, is 268 milliseconds. That means human reaction time would be about 16 frames on average, or on the line of human reaction. Source: http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/statistics

I'd expect better players to be able to react to it.

You're forgetting the time it takes for your controller input to show up on screen and the start-up time for said input.

 

[Pyr]

You're forgetting the time it takes for your controller input to show up on screen and the start-up time for said input.

Assume you're standing next to Ganon and giving him a hug. I don't think it's unreasonable to input your fastest option to avoid it (frame 1 jabs, frame 3 spot dodge, oos options, etc) on reaction. That's hardly the point. If the grand average of millions of instances is already within the realm of reason, then we, people who constantly improve upon our own reaction times because of the games we play, should be able to stuff it or dodge without issue. To say it's not react-able is simply not true.

 

[LancerStaff]

Another big thing is that the move does diddly to real attacks. If it comes out on frame 16 and you're throwing out something safe then he's going to lose every time. Gotta take human and mechanical reaction time and apply it to both sides.

And while I'm here, quick question. Anybody know where the speed values tables are? Looked around the directories in the Smash Academy but I only found the max speed table. I want acceleration and stuff, yaknow?

 

[Mario766]

Sorry to bring attention to this again, but about how much rage is this with?

Rage means the combo stops working.

I usually die to the combo at 110-120 with about 100 damage of rage on non-Town and City ceilings.

 

[DunnoBro]

I agree to an extent that Sheik isn't dominating (she certainly was during the summer) but she's still doing stronger than any other character even if you remove Zero out of the equation.

http://www.ssbwiki.com/CEO_2015#Smash_4_singles
http://www.ssbwiki.com/EVO_2015#Super_Smash_Bros._for_Wii_U_singles
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Super_Smash_Con#Super_Smash_Bros._for_Wii_U_singles
http://www.ssbwiki.com/PAX_Prime_2015#Smash_Wii_U_singles
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Paragon_Los_Angeles_2015#Super_Smash_Bros._for_Wii_U_singles
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Umebura_F.A.T.#Singles
http://www.ssbwiki.com/The_Big_House_5#Smash_Wii_U_singles

You can remove Zero and retain results for Sheik, but you can't remove Nairo and still retain results for ZSS. You may be right in that if Zero wasn't a thing ZSS would be called the best character because of one dominating player (although we really shouldn't let that sort of thing happen), but to say that Sheik is put on a pedestal for the same reason is failing to be honest about recent results.

I never denied she's doing better than any other character (as this would indicate she isn't actually the best) but just that it isn't to an extent that can even begin to be considered "dominating."

Even the vast majority of regionals don't have sheiks winning. To be "dominating" in this context means being the most important factor to consider, or how characters would match up vs her. But since she isn't winning anywhere near the majority of events, this means the Sheik MU is only on average slightly more important than other MUs at best.

Also only two of those events were actually technically won by a sheik. The same amount won by ZSS.

 

[Sir Tundra]

Damn you guys managed to get all the way to 310 pages?..

I must've been gone for quite while huh..

Anyways I just recently got up to speed and managed to catch up with this thread.

I tell yeah you guys had quite alot of ridiculous debates and there was also alot of tierlist being thrown around and what not

Speaking of... Radical Larry I would speak about your tier list right now but I'm just to tired to even do it. So I'll spare you the insults/critique and discuss about it another day. Most likely tomorrow

Aside from being "easy," I really think is one of the biggest winners of 1.1.1:

In 1.1.0, Fox lost to Rosa, Luigi, Sheik and maybe ZSS (ordered in descending difficulty). Camping Luigi is a viable strategy for Fox now because Luigi's reward is no longer absurd, and so the Fox player is no longer required to be near-flawless. Sheik is probably still bad, but it was never terrible in the first place so that's OK really. ZSS may have gotten worse, but that's actually still better for Fox because he'd much rather fight her than Rosa. And since ZSS basically counters Rosa, Fox should be less likely to encounter her in bracket.

This character has one noticeably bad MU (which shouldn't be as common if people tier ***** ZSS), a slight uphill climb against Sheik/ZSS (but really, few characters don't), and then he's probably even or better against everyone else, including other characters that people agree are frightening. I really can't blame players if they want to bandwagon him now.

Fox never lost to that wannabe spacie zss. The matchup was even and still is. As of luigi like ~ Gheb ~ said we still lose to him although it's alot more bearable now that we don't get killed off of a down throw kill setup at 120%. If zss get's more common then that would be amazing for us fox mains since we don't have to deal with Rosalumas bull ****.

Still it warms my heart as a person who's been maining fox since melee that we would finally get an army of fox mains in smash 4 tournaments.

Of course most of these guys are probably a bunch of **** boyz who recently switched from sheik to fox cause sheik is just to hard for them lol.

 

[Jams.]

Reaction time arguments never go anywhere and frustrate me every time they happen. ._.

I'm going to be a hypocrite and add to this anyway. Someone from the Project M tier list speculation thread wrote this out nicely regarding Plup vs Leffen at EVO:

as far as human reaction time is concerned I'm just going to say this

Plup landed 9 grabs on Leffen last night over the course of 3 games. Samus grab comes out on frame 19 in Melee. Fox spotdodge comes out on frame 3. So theoretically, if Leffen has a reaction time of less than 17 frames, he should have been able to spotdodge every grab on reaction. But in reality, he didn't, and Plup usually caught him shielding.

Leffen is arguably the best reaction-based player in the world and he managed to get grabbed by frame 19 grab a bunch of times. So, to those saying "you definitely can react in 14 frames", that seems somewhat dubious to me. you might be able to pull it off sometimes but I doubt you could get very consistent.

The 16 frame average reaction time metric is honestly pretty useless and just exists for Smash theorists to say "You can react to this!" In a real game, there are many other factors at play and one's twitch reaction time in those reaction time testing games is not representative of practical reaction time when playing an actual game.

 

[KirbySquad101]

Another big thing is that the move does diddly to real attacks. If it comes out on frame 16 and you're throwing out something safe then he's going to lose every time. Gotta take human and mechanical reaction time and apply it to both sides.

And while I'm here, quick question. Anybody know where the speed values tables are? Looked around the directories in the Smash Academy but I only found the max speed table. I want acceleration and stuff, yaknow?

Huh, so it's not just me. Last time my bro tried to use the move on me, I just beat it out with Kirby's f-tilt lol.

The second page should contain every speed value you need, from walk acceleration to traction, to initial dash, etc.

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-running-walking-speed-rankings.371564/page-2

 

[Jucchan]

https://twitter.com/SS_S_T_H/status/654524200988749824

Komorikiri's Sonic Matchup Chart:

Disadvantageous 4.8:5.2 or worse


Even 5.1:4.9 ~ 4.9:5.1


Slightly Advantageous 5.2:4.8 ~ 5.4:4.6


Advantageous 5.5:4.5 or better

 

[KirbySquad101]

https://twitter.com/SS_S_T_H/status/654524200988749824

Komorikiri's Sonic Matchup Chart:

Disadvantageous 4.8:5.2 or worse


Even 5.1:4.9 ~ 4.9:5.1


Slightly Advantageous 5.2:4.8 ~ 5.4:4.6


Advantageous 5.5:4.5 or better

Seems accurate; the only matchup I'm kind of thrown off by is King Dedede (I figured it would be a lot better for Sonic), but I wouldn't really know.

 

[Routa]

Not sure about the Ike and Wario part. Both are usually said to be Sanic Slayers. But... At least it was the case before. Not sure if it is the case anymore.

 

[Trifroze]

Trifroze Zss would still have Choco backing her up

Sheik would have 2-3 players of similar skill level in Japan alone (Rain, Shu, Nyanko). Add Mr R, Vinnie and a bunch of people dominating regionally and also doing well at majors to that. Sheik retains strong results when you remove the Sheik player that's a tier above the rest, but ZSS doesn't when you apply the same to her.

Also only two of those events were actually technically won by a sheik. The same amount won by ZSS.

Incidentally the ones won by ZSS didn't have Zero attending them. I think that's about as valid of a reason to disregard those results as Zero using Diddy in GFs in 3 of his wins. Needless to say, this would be a stupid way to look at results. I think it's also more important to look at top 8s or top 16s because clutch factor decreases due to the wider range and it tells more about the overall meta.

I'm simply interested to know the reason ZSS isn't popping up much more if she really is so good. Either she isn't (unlikely), she's harder to use than those close below her or players don't like using her for other reasons and don't want to win badly enough to do it or instead pick Sheik. There's clearly something we're not clear about if we have a (near) alternative to Sheik that nobody seems to be picking up (aside from some top players contemplating it).

 

[DunnoBro]

Incidentally the ones won by ZSS didn't have Zero attending them. I think that's about as valid of a reason to disregard those results as Zero using Diddy in GFs in 3 of his wins. Needless to say, this would be a stupid way to look at results. I think it's also more important to look at top 8s or top 16s because clutch factor decreases due to the wider range and it tells more about the overall meta.

We're talking about characters, not ZeRo so not sure why they should be disregarded and if they are you have a grand total of like 2 tournaments for your example.

Essentially, it sounds like you're trying to make an argument for the best character being "Dominating"

Honestly, if sheik's results were even marginally poorer then she'd be contested as actually best. I don't know what any clearly best characters results would look like without also being "dominating" if sm4sh sheik's results aren't those.

Like her representation and results really aren't that much higher than other characters, really only to the point that makes her status as "best" uncontestable. But when I think a character dominating a meta I think of mk and fox dittos, not 3 players of the same character in top 16 while others only have 2.

 

[Rizen]

I feel like this sums up Ganon:

He does have great reward, shield pressure and huge attacks. I think he can compete with the lower half of the roster because the trade off is good enough. He also is great if you can read and outplay the opponent.
His problem is he's entirely based on reading and outplaying. If the opponent doesn't give Ganon the chance, he can't do anything. Against high tiers with skilled players he gets shut down hard. Ganon's weight is also largely negated by his terrible recovery.
IMO he's bottom 10 but his reward and shield pressure are too good to make him the worst character.

 

[Trifroze]

We're talking about characters, not ZeRo so not sure why they should be disregarded and if they are you have a grand total of like 2 tournaments for your example.

Essentially, it sounds like you're trying to make an argument for the best character being "Dominating"

Honestly, if sheik's results were even marginally poorer then she'd be contested as actually best. I don't know what any clearly best characters results would look like without also being "dominating" if sm4sh sheik's results aren't those.

Like her representation and results really aren't that much higher than other characters, really only to the point that makes her status as "best" uncontestable. But when I think a character dominating a meta I think of mk and fox dittos, not 3 players of the same character in top 16 while others only have 2.

Sheik not being dominating is something I agreed with in the very beginning. However you also said that we'd say the same thing about ZSS that we're now saying about Sheik if Zero was removed, hence I'm pointing out that Sheik has a lot more going for her than just Zero, whereas in comparison ZSS has almost nothing going for her aside from Nairo. It's not to claim that ZSS isn't good, it's simply that I don't see the basis behind your analogy because the difference in rep between those characters is quite massive.

ZSS has received this status of "clearly right behind Sheik", and while I generally agree with that notion I take it with a grain of salt and therefore ask why is that, and why is it that we're not seeing more rep for her when this is the case.

 

[DunnoBro]

Sheik not being dominating is something I agreed with in the very beginning. However you also said that we'd say the same thing about ZSS that we're now saying about Sheik if Zero was removed, hence I'm pointing out that Sheik has a lot more going for her than just Zero, whereas in comparison ZSS has almost nothing going for her aside from Nairo. It's not to claim that ZSS isn't good, it's simply that I don't see the basis behind your analogy because the difference in rep between those characters is quite massive.

ZSS has received this status of "clearly right behind Sheik", and while I generally agree with that notion I take it with a grain of salt and therefore ask why is that, and why is it that we're not seeing more rep for her when this is the case.

Ah, apologies. You're correct in the regard that Nairo makes up more of the rep for ZSS than ZeRo sheik. I was just applying a vacuum theory that I though I made clear was purely anecdotal... I suppose not though.

 

[bc1910]

Not even going to bother analysing Radical Larry's tier list seriously. Just wanted to say it looks like a list someone made 2 hours after the second Diddy nerf. Ness in top 5? Diddy in upper high? Greninja in low tier? Please. And to claim no main bias whilst putting Ganon and Link in mid tier above characters like G&W, Greninja and Lucario is just ludicrous. I believe he's just fishing for attention and/or being "radical" for the sake of being radical, probably to stir things up. And now I'm giving him exactly what he wants so bleh enough said.

@TDK Biggest issue with your list is too many tiers. You don't need those borderline tiers. Move MK up a tier, Peach down, Greninja up and Roy down. Ness should move down a tier, he's not as good as the top 5 listed there. DK and Pac-Man should be viable; the results don't lie at this point. Lucas' placement is way off. Other than that, this list isn't bad.

 

[TTTTTsd]

My theory of why Ganon > Bowser is pretty simple. Bowser gets punished way way wayyyy harder for basically anything.

He can't land at all. None of his aerials are sub 24 landing lag (24f being his NAIR which isn't great to land with to begin with) while everything else is REALLY laggy and can't get anyone off him. Contrast to Ganon whose laggiest aerial is like 28 frames on Dair (Ganon has 16f on his Nair which is pretty good.) Both get combo'd hard but I think Bowser has a way harder time touching the ground and getting in position again (only exaggerated by his giant hitbox). When you trade this for kill power that is sometimes better but usually around the same level as Ganon I just find Bowser to be conceivably worse than him as a character as a whole.

I would like someone to contest this though, it'd at least be interesting discussion.

 

[bc1910]

My theory of why Ganon > Bowser is pretty simple. Bowser gets punished way way wayyyy harder for basically anything.

He can't land at all. None of his aerials are sub 24 landing lag (24f being his NAIR which isn't great to land with to begin with) while everything else is REALLY laggy and can't get anyone off him. Contrast to Ganon whose laggiest aerial is like 28 frames on Dair (Ganon has 16f on his Nair which is pretty good.) Both get combo'd hard but I think Bowser has a way harder time touching the ground and getting in position again (only exaggerated by his giant hitbox). When you trade this for kill power that is sometimes better but usually around the same level as Ganon I just find Bowser to be conceivably worse than him as a character as a whole.

I would like someone to contest this though, it'd at least be interesting discussion.

I can see Ganon > Bowser too, for many of the reasons you've listed. Bowser's Nair landing lag got buffed I think and it's 20f now, but that's still high. Bowser can't land at all and Ganon's just better at a lot of stuff.

Ganon > Lucario, Greninja, G&W, Bowser Jr, Lucas etc etc etc though, I'm gonna need a lot more convincing.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I can see Ganon > Bowser too, for many of the reasons you've listed. Bowser's Nair landing lag got buffed I think and it's 20f now, but that's still high. Bowser can't land at all and Ganon's just better at a lot of stuff.

Ganon > Lucario, Greninja, G&W, Bowser Jr, Lucas etc etc etc though, I'm gonna need a lot more convincing.

Oh I was discussing the heavies discussion. Ganon > Greninja would only be if you injected me with all sorts of weird fluids LOL

 

[Trifroze]

I see Ganondorf still being the worst heavy, possibly among the worst characters in the game again. His design is essentially the complete opposite of Sheik; he's fundamentally doomed to fail but if you increase his reward any more it starts getting stupid in some other game modes and eventually in 1vs1 as well.

Ganondorf's landing options are so bad that it really wouldn't have any considerable effect if you made them any worse such as Bowser's. Nair and down b are good threats mid-combo but still not something you could or should ever rely on (especially down b).

Bowser's neutral on the other hand is a lot better, he has actual OoS and CQC options some of which are really good like up b and jab, and his grab game is much more viable due to his better grab range and his much faster dash speed, also pivot grab is hilariously good. His fthrow and bthrow both also kill and his command grab is safer and more likely to connect than Ganon's due to 50% faster startup.

Ganondorf has a better aerial game and he can actually hit shields with them safely (I don't know about Bowser after the patch), but despite Bowser's heavy landing lag numbers he still has good autocancels (sort of like Pikachu but yeah) and his ground game is a lot better due to reasons stated before, the only superior ground option Ganondorf really has is dash attack which is something every character except like MK, Fox, Samus, Falcon and maybe Peach and Zelda would like. I don't know who has better advantage, but it doesn't seem to lean one way or the other too much.

 

[Dre89]

My theory of why Ganon > Bowser is pretty simple. Bowser gets punished way way wayyyy harder for basically anything.

He can't land at all. None of his aerials are sub 24 landing lag (24f being his NAIR which isn't great to land with to begin with) while everything else is REALLY laggy and can't get anyone off him. Contrast to Ganon whose laggiest aerial is like 28 frames on Dair (Ganon has 16f on his Nair which is pretty good.) Both get combo'd hard but I think Bowser has a way harder time touching the ground and getting in position again (only exaggerated by his giant hitbox). When you trade this for kill power that is sometimes better but usually around the same level as Ganon I just find Bowser to be conceivably worse than him as a character as a whole.

I would like someone to contest this though, it'd at least be interesting discussion.

What

Bowser is way, waaayyy better at landing than Ganondorf. The lack of high level Bowsers really tells, because it appears no one really understands this character outside of his mains.

Bowser's landing options got significantly buffed from Brawl. Apart from just double-jump mix-ups, he has klaw, fair which is marginally faster than Ganondorf's bair, dair, and even bowser bomb and firebreath.

They all sound gimmicky and scrubby, but the reality is most of them are genuinely threatening if he gets the read so you actually have to respect them. People who don't main or play against Bowsers seriously underrate how good Bowser's dair is in this game. It's fast, beats pretty much everything, has a huge landing hitbox and kills pretty early for how fast it is. It's obviously punishable but it covers a lot of aerial and grounded options. Once Bowser gets to percents where he can DI away and act before getting hit again almost no option underneath him, aerial or grounded is safe. You basically have to approach him side-on.

Like I said before his fair comes out quicker than Ganondorf's bair.

Klaw is gimmicky but can work if you predict that they'll just try shield-push your landing. You can fast-fall it from a higher height so they have less reaction time/are less likely to expect it.

Firebreath is super risky, but you can sometimes b-reverse it if you know they're just gonna stay on the ground and try punish your landing, especially if they;re likely to sit in shield.

Landing with bowser bomb is another risky gimmick that you probably shouldn't do, but the stall lets you punish pivot-grab attempts.

His landing options suck, but they are definitely better than Ganondorf's. It's quite realistic to kill a high level player off a landing read because of how much kill power dair and klaw have. And unlike Ganondorf, his entire landing meta isn't countered by just sitting in shield and punishing whatever he tries. If someone is chasing Ganondorf in the air when they don't have a guaranteed follow-up, it's not because they need to, it's just because they got greedy and wanted a higher reward than whatever they could do punishing his landing.

Also unless Ganondorf has a guaranteed fsmash out of sideb or something I don't know about, Bowser kills much earlier than him (reliably). Bowser Bomb kills most of the cast pre-100. The pop-up is like sub frame 10, combos into the bomb and can confirm out of jab. You don't even need to jab most of the time, the start-up is so good, you can often get it off a read or OOS (especially a powershield). It can also be pivoted, and is deceptively good when you do it from the ground onto a platform (like on BF) because they have less time to react and it one-shots shields. He also has usmash, which isn't free or anything but you can normally throw it out fairly safely when they're in the air. It beats pretty much everything if you space it correctly so it's worth going for the mix-up when they're in kill percents. He has other stuff too like off-stage fair/bair but Ganondorf has off-stage stuff too.

But yeah, Bowser can consistently kill people pre-100 without stuff like fsmash, so he definitely has a better time killing reliably than Gdorf.

 

[Minordeth]

Ganon's Bair is frame 10, Bowser's Fair is frame 11, fyi.

ETA: I wouldn't compare the two, because other characters would kill for Ganon's Bair. It's frame 10, it has FAF on 36 and autocancels after 22. It also has hilarious damage and knockback. Bowser's Fair has the FAF on 42, and autocancels after 31. The sweetspot does 13, compared to Ganon's Bair sweetspot with 17 damage.

Bowser's aerial klaw is frame 17, btw, so also not a good comparison to Ganon's Bair. The grounded version is apparently frame 8, so that's sweet.

 

[Trifroze]

The big difference is that Ganondorf can actually land with his aerials now without getting punished if he hits a shield.

 

[Dre89]

Ganon's Bair is frame 10, Bowser's Fair is frame 11, fyi.

I thought it had a slight start-up

Never have I been so wrong

 

[Minordeth]

Yeah, I think people forget that Ganon basically has buffed Captain Falcon moves, that are negligibly slower. The man has killer (literally!) moves, stuck on a character with bummer mobility and a massive hitbox. The bad disadvantage Falcon has transfers over to Ganon, but Ganon lacks a good throw to get any kind of set-ups going. I mean, his Nair is legit awesome, and you can actually get some work out of Dthrow, but with the changes to shields, it's even harder for Ganon to get that work done.

 

[Dre89]

Yeah, I think people forget that Ganon basically has buffed Captain Falcon moves, that are negligibly slower. The man has killer (literally!) moves, stuck on a character with bummer mobility and a massive hitbox. The bad disadvantage Falcon has transfers over to Ganon, but Ganon lacks a good throw to get any kind of set-ups going. I mean, his Nair is legit awesome, and you can actually get some work out of Dthrow, but with the changes to shields, it's even harder for Ganon to get that work done.

Like I've said before, the biggest issue for me that he doesn't have a grab range that can threaten shields in neutral. If he did, that would open up his punish game so much more because people would be forced into options other than just shielding whenever he's close.

That's why Falcon's dash attack is so good. It's because he also has a dash grab that forces people to select options weak to his dash attack. Ganondorf's dash attack would be a lot more legit in neutral, like it is for DK/Zard/Bowser if he had the grab to go with it.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

https://twitter.com/SS_S_T_H/status/654524200988749824

Komorikiri's Sonic Matchup Chart:

Disadvantageous 4.8:5.2 or worse


Even 5.1:4.9 ~ 4.9:5.1


Slightly Advantageous 5.2:4.8 ~ 5.4:4.6


Advantageous 5.5:4.5 or better

I think Sonic loses to Yoshi and is even with Wario. Little Mac and Samus are also more than just a "slight" advantage, Sonic pretty much hard counters those two tbh. And Sheik is probably closer to even than that ... but I have very few qualms with that spread otherwise.

 

[Zage]

Is it possible to be perfectly aware of all of Pacman's micromanagements and avoid being hit by them?
I think yes.

It's entirely possible, it's just that a majority of players don't have the mental fortitude to keep up with what he's doing without getting frustrated and playing really reckless, which is something pac-man wants. It's a byproduct of being able to have two hard hitting projectiles on the screen at once that can pressure your opponent. Can I dodge? Can I block? Will I get shield poked? Will my shield break? Will he follow his projectiles and grab me? What are my options? There's so much to think about.

I know for he also has a bad matchup against

Probably one of his top 3 worse match-ups IMO. R.O.B definitely has a better boxing and zoning game. AC Nair > D-tilt is negates all of pacman's good OOS options. Uair goes through the hydrant, Gyros/Lasers render all fruit completely harmless and still retains their hitboxes.

He's fully capable of just waiting to see what Pac-man does and just outdoing him in it.

 

[DunnoBro]

I think Sonic loses to Yoshi and is even with Wario.

IIRC Seagull joe used to claim yoshi beat sonic too. I wasn't so sure about before but now it seems pretty clear. Yoshi's always putting out a big meaty hitbox that makes spindash pretty unsafe to begin with, (before a dash-in shield would make these unsafe though) but he also just chases a sonic who spindashed on a shield hard too. DA and Usmash for the landing and egg for jump aways. Sonic's other neutral options are hindered similarly as well.

Yoshi also isn't very susceptible to sonic's normal kill methods. (Heavy, but floaty makes both bthrow and uair strings less reliable kill set-ups) And I think pressures him offstage better than most characters. Yoshi's great at edgeguarding vertical recoveries. (Though pretty awful at horizontal imo)

This combined with the fact yoshi actually dictates the pace of the match with his air speed means he's more capable of abusing the clock than sonic in this MU on most stages.

 

[Radical Larry]

Alright, I'm just heading back and moving Greninja on up, and I'll bring Ganondorf lower and bring Greninja in a better position. Though from what I've seen so far, looks like the debate between Ganondorf vs Bowser/Zard is in Ganondorf's favor.

But unlike what you all really think, Jigglypuff isn't bad when you actually get to learn her. She has the wall of pain tactic in her F-Air at certain percentages on characters, and boy, it's the most devastating yet amazing thing you'll ever see or do. If you get your opponent far enough, it's pretty much a gimp on stage.

But before I forget, I got a thing about Ganondorf's standing grab. Don't expect to grab an opponent rushing at you, but merely let the opponent rush in at you, use a power shield, then grab them. Ganondorf's grab is meant to be an on-shield punish on characters who still rush in after aerial attacks on block. If an opponent like Sheik, for example, uses an RAR B-Air, she's actually within enough range (because of her foot) to get grabbed on power shield.

Ganondorf's dash grab is meant for rushing in on the opponent, and his pivot grab is meant to be a retreating grab, since Ganondorf won't be able to go through the opponent with sufficient time to pivot grab them. It's better to run away from the opponent and if they're in range, pivot grab them.

 

[meleebrawler]

I see Ganondorf still being the worst heavy, possibly among the worst characters in the game again. His design is essentially the complete opposite of Sheik; he's fundamentally doomed to fail but if you increase his reward any more it starts getting stupid in some other game modes and eventually in 1vs1 as well.

People only suggest damage buffs because any other type of buff seems to be a pipe dream. Lots of people think Mewtwo needs a buffed offence to compete, but once he does... congratulations, you've just obsoleted all the heavies.

But unlike what you all really think, Jigglypuff isn't bad when you actually get to learn her. She has the wall of pain tactic in her F-Air at certain percentages on characters, and boy, it's the most devastating yet amazing thing you'll ever see or do. If you get your opponent far enough, it's pretty much a gimp on stage.

It's amazing to see because it is so ridiculously hard to pull off against anyone with a brain. There's little chance of this actually succeeding on-stage as long as your opponent doesn't waste his jump trying to escape the fairs. And starting it usually requires an advancing fair, which runs the risk of being mauled by an OOS option, or any remotely good spacing move.

 

[TTTTTsd]

All of the landing options described above for Bowser punish pre-emptive attempts at catching him. All you have to do to hit Bowser is wait for him to do ANYTHING on reaction. He has nothing reliable or good to land with at all compared to Ganondorf who has much less commitmental landing issues period (Bair, Nair). It's not countered by sitting in shield, it's countered by waiting and reacting, which is essentially the same difference except Bowser is a bigger target and easier to do this to than Ganondorf. Sure you can't shield Bowser Bomb but you can just wait. The landing lag is so high it doesn't matter. Same with Dair and its FORTY frames of landing lag. Bair? Also 40. Nothing Bowser has can even come close to being reliable. His command grab is the closest thing but it's also pretty gimmicky. Literally every problem described about how Ganon gets out of disadvantage applies to Bowser with small cardinal differences except Bowser has laggier attacks and is also bigger. The closest thing Bowser has is fire breath but that's also kinda slow and the cooldown sucks. His lack of landing options is probably his biggest barrier in terms of consistent success in this game but that's a really big barrier.

I'm just never going to see Bowser > Ganon. To me it is inconceivable. Bowser certainly has the better neutral and OoS options, I will concede that. There are definite advantages, but god he bites it so hard when he's hit, much much worse.

Maybe they're both just equally bad, dunno.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

Can we somewhat agree that most tiers or whatever people make aren't completely good, obviously. Wouldn't you have to technically study a character or play them to be able to fully give them a position and stuff?
For instance people for WHATEVER REASON,thinking jiggs is more viable then Kirby.
Some characters aren't represented enough for everyone to see how good they possible can be(Tink,Peach,I feel like Samus is actually better then what it seems, though I could be wrong.)

So....basically no tier list or whatever people make is gonna please everyone and unless you understand and maybe even play all characters in the game to get a good understanding of them, its going to be hard giving reasons why some could be better or worse then others.