Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Nu~]

https://twitter.com/K_Prime04/status/649351429405081601

It begins

2015 is the year of the rat, my friends

@Pikabunz

Pikachu was already an annoying little tumor.

Starting to regret these shield changes...

 

[LightLV]

Pikachu, yet another case of "was already safe as ****"

Nothing to see here

 

[FullMoon]

I'm not really sure what the shieldstun change did to Greninja. I mean N-Air basically can't be shieldgrabbed anymore which is great and we can space with F-Air and F-Tilt and all but so many characters probably got better tools from this than us. Granted our OoS options suck so we probably shouldn't even bother shielding much from now on.

Sheik still invalidates us so either way Greninja isn't solo viable so whatever.

 

[Gunla]

The Nair Shieldgrab change alone is something that will benefit me greatly. It makes me feel much more comfortable using it; even if we may have not gotten the massive changes that others have, it's the little things like that that are making me happy.

 

[LightLV]

I'm not really sure what the shieldstun change did to Greninja. I mean N-Air basically can't be shieldgrabbed anymore which is great and we can space with F-Air and F-Tilt and all but so many characters probably got better tools from this than us.

A safe Nair is...pretty good...i mean, just yesterday, something like that would have knocked Greninja up multiple tier spots...


....i really think this forum has gone from "Oh, what's a little shieldstun going to do", to "oh wow look yoshi can shieldbreak", to "OMG I CANT SHIELDBREAK COMBO MY CHARACTER IS WORSE THAN BEFORE"

It doesn't necessarily work that way guys.

 

[Nu~]

Received:
-Safe Bairs on shield
-z drop key -> hydrant drop -> Nair is a shield brake string
-item tossed/BF thrown melon and item tossed key have enough shield stun to confirm into grabs
-Fair hydrant launches and item tossed Galaxian approaches confirm grabs now, and can set up shield brakes
-Nair -> trampoline is a safe approach on anyone without a 5 frame OoS punish
-Safer DA (still working out the details)
-Dair traps opponents in shield correctly now.
-grounded hydrant drops are safe on shield
-DITCIT grab confirms and shield brake confirms
-z drop galaxian(especially), melon, and key are dangerous with the amount of shield lock time they now have
-SH retreating fair is even safer

Pretty much a bunch of stupid things with fruit and a lot more approach options. At least our shield weakness is gone :D


But now we all have to deal with the era of Yoshi dair and the tumor rat dynasty...

 

[NairWizard]

Pikachu, yet another case of "was already safe as ****"

Nothing to see here

You are out of your mind.

Go load up the previous patch, f-air, f-smash, or d-air someone's shield, and tell me that the amount of time you freeze unable to take any action isn't laughably punishable.

 

[FullMoon]

A safe Nair is...pretty good...i mean, just yesterday, something like that would have knocked Greninja up multiple tier spots...


....i really think this forum has gone from "Oh, what's a little shieldstun going to do", to "oh wow look yoshi can shieldbreak", to "OMG I CANT SHIELDBREAK COMBO MY CHARACTER IS WORSE THAN BEFORE"

It doesn't necessarily work that way guys.

The problem is not that I think Greninja is now bad or anything (I sure will enjoy this new N-Air) because he doesn't have shield break combos.

It's just the same problem that we've discussed even before the patch hit:

Sheik exists.

That alone makes Greninja not solo-viable

 

[DblCrest]

Received:
-Safe Bairs on shield
-z drop key -> hydrant drop -> Nair is a shield brake string
-melon and key have enough shield stun to confirm into grabs
-hydrants and galaxian approaches confirm grabs
-Nair -> trampoline is a safe approach on anyone without a 5 frame OoS punish
-Safer DA (still working out the details)
-Dair traps opponents in shield
-grounded hydrant drops are safe on shield
-DITCIT grab confirms and shield brake confirms

Pretty much a bunch of stupid things with fruit and a lot more approach options. At least our shield weakness is gone :D


But now we all have to deal with the era of Yoshi dair and the tumor rat dynasty...

How about Dash attack and trampoline to escape shield grabs? :o

 

[Nu~]

How about Dash attack and trampoline to escape shield grabs? :o

That's what we're testing, but multiple people are getting different results.

Edit: Confirmation!

It depends on what part of the attack you're in when you make contact. Getting DA to end at the point where Trampoline hits the opponent gives the best results.

 

[LightLV]

You are out of your mind.

Go load up the previous patch, f-air, f-smash, or d-air someone's shield, and tell me that the amount of time you freeze unable to take any action isn't laughably punishable.

BOY i throw out wiffed Fsmashes with pikachu for fun. Like 90% of the cast can do absolutely noooooooooooothing about it. He can Fair for free too, granted you dont fall into someone's face with it like an idiot.

(and before a mod infracts me, no, i'm not trolling)

And no, why would i Dair someone's shield, that's silly



ANYWAY, this thread has gotten to really funny levels of woethrowing and character whining, which is interesting seeing as everyone's character is now closer to "good" than they've ever been before, unless you play Shiek or Luigi, in which case nothing has really even changed.

I think the serious discussion can continue in about a month.

 

[CBO0tz]

Luigi got nerfed? .. Damn.

Well, do these changes buff Pac-Man or Little Mac at all?

 

[Ghostbone]

Luigi main's you'll be find. Luigi just received the diddy treatment. He still can rack up alot of damage, He just has to work for his kills now. Besides if diddy mains can get through this then so can you guys

Diddy was the best character in the game when he got nerfed, and still probably top 3 when he got nerfed again.

Luigi hasn't been seen in top 32 of a major since like CEO (and that was only a secondary from larry).

Diddy had room to fall, Luigi was already arguably unviable at high level.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Received:
-Nair -> trampoline is a safe approach on anyone without a 5 frame OoS punish

Not gonna lie, this one scares me.

 

[Sir Tundra]

In Luigi main's defense Luigi doesn't have good mobility nor bananas

Well that maybe true

But

He still has fireballs so that has to count for something. right?

Or am I missing something

Diddy was the best character in the game when he got nerfed, and still probably top 3 when he got nerfed again.

Luigi hasn't been seen in top 32 of a major since like CEO (and that was only a secondary from larry).

Diddy had room to fall, Luigi was already arguably unviable at high level.

In a national level luigi was almost NU. However to say he's unviable at high level is an overstatement. Semi most likely

 

[NairWizard]

BOY i throw out wiffed Fsmashes with pikachu for fun. Like 90% of the cast can do absolutely noooooooooooothing about it.

Yes, but the solution to f-smash for most of the cast used to be shield it and then punish.
That solution still exists but unless you mess up his spacing then even shielding it won't let you punish now.

He can Fair for free too, granted you dont fall into someone's face with it like an idiot.

Hitting a shield with f-air was (and still is, since it only gained 3 frame safety) suicide.

And no, why would i Dair someone's shield, that's silly

SH autocanceled d-air on a predicted shield drop (like after a d-tilt) is one of the staples of Pikachu's gameplay

 

[Zelder]

Here lies
luigi
peperony and chease


Seriously though, I think Luigi might have been killed by this patch. He pretty much got robbed...which is good news for everyone else (fighting Luigi was and is a terrible, terrible ordeal) but all around sad news for Luigi mains.

 

[Shaya]

Okay.
Luigi getting nerfed, electric hit lag being neutralized on the receiver.

Pika being top 5 now makes feasible sense.
He was definitely trash before though. I won't budge on that one.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Accurate summation of today.

Thanks to shieldstun and electric effects, Robin's Fair is now unpunishable. Any attempts to punish or close the distance is met with a Jab variant that can kill at 110. Enjoy.

 

[⑨ball]

What are your thoughts on ZSS and Marcina Shaya ?

Have you had a chance to play around with them at all yet?

 

[Ghostbone]

Top tier is like
Sheik/ZSS/Ryu/Pikachu now

 

[Amadeus9]

Speaking of safe nairs, lol mks nair is dumb now. MK I think was hugely sleeper buffed. Our biggest issue has always been shield and only having dash grab to deal with it. Now even fair is relatively safe on shield if you space it right. And get this: with the ten frames of shield drop animation, fsmash is plus 3 frames advantage on shield.

edit: http://smashboards.com/threads/patch-1-1-1.418796/#post-2022226

 

[TurboLink]

Speaking of safe nairs, lol mks nair is dumb now. MK I think was hugely sleeper buffed. Our biggest issue has always been shield and only having dash grab to deal with it. Now even fair is relatively safe on shield if you space it right. And get this: with the ten frames of shield drop animation, fsmash is plus 3 frames advantage on shield.

edit: http://smashboards.com/threads/patch-1-1-1.418796/#post-2022226

How good is his nair now?

 

[Dogivet]

Here lies
luigi
peperony and chease

Not... LOTS OF SPAGHETTI;
One job Zelder, one job...

On the topic of Pikachu possibly being on the rise, I have a quick question for electric attack properties; it's the increased hit lag of the attacker correct? Would this therefore cause all electric attacks to balance out in pressure, or do I have my information backwards and it will cause extra pressure?

Spoiler: Off-topic Wager

Very out there and I'm sure I'll be frowned upon for saying this (and I don't really care myself, I just laugh at these kinds of posts), but I'm willing to wager that the next big complaint will be people unintentionally rolling when trying to counter attack in shield. It was already exists pre-patch with certain attacks with that caused a large amount of shield stun, but now almost any move will be causing this.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Bowser Jr. was another char who got majorly buffed by the changes to shieldstun. Jr. himself was a character who hated shields in general: using and combatting them. He has one of the worst sets of oos options in the game, with a frame 12 grab and super slow Up-B that leaves him vulnerable, (though his Up-Smash was admittedly decent.) On the other hand, his frame 12 grab also served as a deterrent for being able to deal with the opponents shields as well! None of his moves were safe on shield either, so he suffered. An otherwise good character with decent combos, mixed frame data, surprisingly good mobility, and powerful disjointed kill moves couldn't do **** because all you had to do was press L or R and you won against him.

However, Bowser Jr. gains a ****-ton from weaker shields, as his disjointed fair that autocancels from a shorthop is looking a lot more appealing now. He has an actual landing option because his multihit dair essentially can't be reliably punished anymore, and his Kart, the move which epitomizes the entirety of his combo game, can hit shields and just move straight past them like Sonic's Spindash. Yeah his shield is weaker too, but again, what was he using it for anyway?

Also, there is a little rumor in the Jr. boards that his multi hitting disjointed Forward Smash is completely safe on shield now. I'm taking it with a grain of salt, but ain't that a scary thought?

This is what I've been thinking too. Quick OoS attacks and shield grabs are some of the biggest pains to deal with as Bowser Jr and it's kind of jarring how momentum based this character is thanks to this. Things could be going wildly in your favor and then, d'oh, someone has a decent set up grab or utilt and now you're just trying to get back to neutral. It feels like you're either getting destroyed or wrecking your opponent when you're playing as him because it literally takes one good read to start a string with or against him. As you said, the added shield stun gives him a lot of good shield pressure options. Dair, jab combo, Fsmash, dtilt, usmash, abandon ship + the desperation hammer, and Usmash already did good shield damage but most of these were pretty safe on shield and could be easily punished but now it sounds like that these could now easily lead to shield breaks and back his opponents even further in a corner if the momentum is on his side. As far as pressure game goes, this could mean that Bowser Jr could end up becoming as scary as Fox and Sonic in this regard.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Need to play them more (against actual opponents/not WiFi).
But Marth looks very promising, he eats shields and a well spaced play with Nair and Uair is incredibly safe and shield- threatening.
Lucina is, as always, underwhelming. At least as far as I've tested.

 

[Amadeus9]

How good is his nair now?

Nair is first actionable 2 frames before you can fully drop your shield, if you hit one frame before landing on the ground.

Edit: number

 

[**Gilgamesh**]

Okay.
Luigi getting nerfed, electric hit lag being neutralized on the receiver.

Pika being top 5 now makes feasible sense.
He was definitely trash before though. I won't budge on that one.

How do you feel about the increase of shield stun; which characters seems to benefit the most from this universal change? Do Top Tiers like get more reward from the increase of shield stun then the other characters to make this? How does look after this patch? I still feel as if characters wither superb mobility [] might benefit more then other characters do to already have great pressure options, but then again more characters also have options against them as well, but are they enough to balance out?

 

[san.]

I don't think the question isn't just who's safe on shield, but who forces you to shield and is safe. I'm not afraid of Yoshi's dair since it's not going to get me to shield it anyways since you can hit it fairly reliably.

 

[Amadeus9]

How do you feel about the increase of shield stun, which characters seems to benefit the most from this universal change. Do Top Tiers like get more reward from the increase of shield stun then the other characters to make this? How does look after this patch? I still feel as if characters wither superb mobility [] might benefit more then other characters do to already have great pressure options, but then again more characters also have options against them as well, but are they enough to balance out?

I'm not going to lie, I can no longer see any reason why marth is better than roy. You can't even claim he's safer now.

I don't think the question isn't just who's safe on shield, but who forces you to shield and is safe. I'm not afraid of Yoshi's dair since it's not going to get me to shield it anyways since you can hit it fairly reliably.

That's why I think mk was so hugely buffed by this. Dash attack safety has skyrocketed, and it's something you HAVE to shield, or you will die. Same story with other mk stuff.

Edit: thanks mods

 

[Gamesfreak13563]

I'm not going to lie, I can no longer see any reason why marth is better than roy. You can't even claim he's safer now.

Marth's tipper makes his playstyle more conducive to properly spacing, and with the extra shieldlag, a lot more of his options are safe, as compared to Roy who still has massive endlag on a few of his hits.

Though I feel like both went up tremendously because of the patch - but if everyone is going up, doesn't that just make it all the same? Who didn't benefit from additional shield pressure?

 

[BSP]

Not gonna lie, this one scares me.

That was massive theory on my part. We need to verify it. I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case, but it'll be pretty tight. Nu~ you're jumping to gun a bit.

 

[Nu~]

That was massive theory on my part. We need to verify it. I wouldn't be surprised if it were the case, but it'll be pretty tight. Nu~ you're jumping to gun a bit.

I could have sworn that you guys tested those already.

Well at least we know that this is real
https://twitter.com/gengar6tomo/status/649375242519867392

 

[HeavyLobster]

I don't think the question isn't just who's safe on shield, but who forces you to shield and is safe. I'm not afraid of Yoshi's dair since it's not going to get me to shield it anyways since you can hit it fairly reliably.

Bingo. Which is why this isn't good for most low tiers, since the better characters in the game can just run circles around them and force them to shield quite often while rarely needing to shield themselves. Someone like Ganondorf can mostly break even or even do slightly better in the MUs he already did well in, but struggles mightily against his problem MUs who can pressure him even more freely than before and dodge his attacks. He was already not that bad vs. regular shield in 1.1.0, but was fairly unsafe on whiff/PS, and the shieldstun changes did nothing to remedy this.

 

[BSP]

I could have sworn that you guys tested those already.

Well at least we know that this is real
https://twitter.com/gengar6tomo/status/649375242519867392

Well, from what I can gather from testing by myself, it's real. I did a fast falled Nair into Mega Man's shield as close to the ground as I could. I tapped L and grab for Mega Man to make sure the grab came out ASAP. Next tap I mashed trampoline.

...trampoline bailed him out lol. It's probably frame perfect, but I think it's legit.

 

[Cassio]

Not really a fan of anything that makes pika stronger compared to the rest of the cast. Hope he doesnt end up stronger overall. Only hope now is that people continue to ignore him especially Japan, but Im afraid he may head to nerf city soon.

 

[Phenomiracle]

Silver lining is microscopic, if existent at all, for mid-low tiers with average to poor mobility.

This adjustment rewards offensive play at the expense of balance. I don't see how anyone, save for the top-tier mains and those solely obsessed with seeing this game become more like Melee, can be happy with this alone. This patch should have came with a considerable amount of helpful buffs to all mid-low tiers to accommodate for this universal change.

Smash 4 should push for optimizing both balance and offensive play. Yes, mathematical reality dictates a difference between true balance and ultra-high offensive play, but trying to actualize both until a crossroads is met should be the approach for getting this game to be more competitive.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ryu is beyond words insane with this patch. Before he had to space everything so well and not do badly spaced fairs and bairs on shield. Same with hard jab.

Now?

lol if Ryu sees a shield he gets a free block pressure button plus stage control because of the push back he does.

Ryu gives no ****s thanks to this patch.

 

[hypersonicJD]

Speaking about Luigi...

This is hilarious lol.

I think now Sonic can safely use F-Tit as a poke, sure, Sonic won't be able to run and shield like he used too. But he gained more hitsun on his Spin Dash, Spin Charge and Nair (I think). I don't really think Sonic will be hited hard by this at all. He might just be even better.

Also, how are things for Rosalina? Since F-Tilt and D-Tilt were pretty safe in 1.1.0

 

[DanGR]

Either I'm playing with the shieldstun changes totally incorrectly (I've been playing all day) or rosalina was hit really hard. I think a ton of her previously even/advantaged matchups turned into disadvantages/even matchups respectively.

I know it's a little too early to tell for sure, but I'm contemplating picking up a new main.