Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

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Cassio

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By the way something that mightve been looked over maybe is that anyone with a good fast jab potentially makes big gains. In melee characters like falcon and sheik had aerials that were technically disadvantaged on shield, but with such good jabs it didnt matter all the opponent can do is shield.
 

G. Stache

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Right, well. I give up on smash 4. This has to be the most unbalanced patch they've made. If I can be quite frank, luigi seemed to be the main person keeping pika at bay. Now, with nerfs luigi hardly has a winning mu against anybody in top tier and just...well. Isn't too great anymore. Not even sure he'll be in top 20. While the strong top tiers get stronger (Sheik, Rosa and Pika). Pika is, in theory, insanely buffed and I have a niggling feeling that Esam is about to get a whole lot more consistent. Sheik obviously didn't need anything to keep her places at top, but no matter. And...well, call me incredibly biased if you want, but did anyone actually think that luigi NEEDED nerfs? Obviously, a few wanted them. But was he really broken to the point where the patch had to make him Mario 0.5? Not at all. The added shield pressure would've been enough to keep him at bay, if that's what hell Sakurai desired. But now he has no kill combos, he still suffers from ****ty mobility and his projectile is still a resounding meh compared to others. I know I'm biased, but did anyone honestly believe that luigi had this coming to him? Because it seems that this patch simply decided to use a cleaver instead of tweezers on Luigi. Opinions that weren't as salty as mine would do me well
 
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Lavani

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Also, how are things for Rosalina? Since F-Tilt and D-Tilt were pretty safe in 1.1.0
Nnnnnnnnnno.

Either I'm playing with the shieldstun changes totally incorrectly or rosalina was hit really hard. I think a ton of her previously even/advantaged matchups turned into disadvantages/even matchups respectively.
I'm mostly going off theorycraft from crunching numbers, but Luma should have very good frame data on shield now. Its hitlag values are x1.5~2.0 on most of its attacks, that hitlag actually comes into play on shield now, and it's separate from Rosalina so it's effectively all frame advantage. Luma!Rapid jab ender locks the opponent for 16 frames, which means with a desync setup you can do things like this as a true blockstring:


Aside from that, Luma jabs should be even safer than they used to, and Lunar Landings should always get a free grab if shielded. There's probably more she gets out of this, but I don't have access to the game currently or I'd be labbing hard right now.

I don't know how what she gets compares to what the rest of the cast gets though, so in practice her benefits might be less significant/more situational.
 
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Emblem Lord

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Either I'm playing with the shieldstun changes totally incorrectly (I've been playing all day) or rosalina was hit really hard. I think a ton of her previously even/advantaged matchups turned into disadvantages/even matchups respectively.

I know it's a little too early to tell for sure, but I'm contemplating picking up a new main.
I murdered a Rosa in tourney today. He couldnt punish ANYTHING and Luma just got obliterated. Literally just did run up fair and when he tried to punish on shield, I just shoryued or rolled.
 

Amadeus9

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Right, well. I give up on smash 4. This has to be the most unbalanced patch they've made. If I can be quite frank, luigi seemed to be the main person keeping pika at bay. Now, with nerfs luigi hardly has a winning mu against anybody in top tier and just...well. Isn't too great anymore. Not even sure he'll be in top 20. While the strong top tiers get stronger (Sheik, Rosa and Pika). Pika is, in theory, insanely buffed and I have a niggling feeling that Esam is about to get a whole lot more consistent. Sheik obviously didn't need anything to keep her places at top, but no matter. And...well, call me incredibly biased if you want, but did anyone actually think that luigi NEEDED nerfs? Obviously, a few wanted them. But was he really broken to the point where the patch had to make him Mario 0.5? Not at all. The added shield pressure would've been enough to keep him at bay, if that's what hell Sakurai desired. But now he has no kill combos, he still suffers from ****ty mobility and his projectile is still a resounding meh compared to others. I know I'm biased, but did anyone honestly believe that luigi had this coming to him? Because it seems that this patch simply decided to use a cleaver instead of tweezers on Luigi. Opinions that weren't as salty as mine would do me well
K bye
 

NachoOfCheese

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Luigi exists
*people complain*
Luigi buffed
*people complain*
Luigi nerfed
*PEOPLE COMPLAIN*

Relevant: buster Shulk on Shield is pretty nice. It's like Ryu without the frame data.
 

Plain Yogurt

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As weird as it might sound for a nearly year-old game, I feel like this is a sort of beta testing sort of patch. Like they want to see what impact this will have and THEN they'll change characters accordingly or completely revert it if things become insane. As for how they didn't forsee certain implications and make preemptive adjustments your guess is as good as mine but it's the only reason I can imagine they would change like, nothing character-wise beyond the Luigi nerf. I dunno, maybe they figured we'd find the busted stuff faster? Y'never know with these folks I guess.

As for my characters :4shulk::4lucas:, I haven't had too much extensive labbing time because homework but I'm pretty optimistic on how this may help Buster mode seeing as Dtilt was already fairly safe and it should help out his aerial spacing a bit as well. Meanwhile, Shield mode's increased shield strength and regeneration might give it some more usage if all these shield break strings end up being viable, but on the other hand he still has that godawful movement and damage reduction. I'll hopefully get some time to play against other people in the coming days to check things out.

Meanwhile if electrical stuff is actually safer on shield Lucas is gon' be nice. His keepaway/spacing game was already pretty solid.
 

Phenomiracle

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This has to be the most unbalanced patch they've made.
Yes, it is.

Your post is saltier than the Dead Sea, though.

As weird as it might sound for a nearly year-old game, I feel like this is a sort of beta testing sort of patch. Like they want to see what impact this will have and THEN they'll change characters accordingly or completely revert it if things become insane. As for how they didn't forsee certain implications and make preemptive adjustments your guess is as good as mine but it's the only reason I can imagine they would change like, nothing character-wise beyond the Luigi nerf. I dunno, maybe they figured we'd find the busted stuff faster? Y'never know with these folks I guess.
Definitely one good guess, jumping this universal change out of the blue is pretty bizarre.

I wouldn't be surprised if we were hit with another patch around Thanksgiving.
 
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HeroMystic

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I feel like this is a sort of beta testing sort of patch. Like they want to see what impact this will have and THEN they'll change characters accordingly or completely revert it if things become insane.
Bingo.

Competitive Dev teams actually do this a good amount. Granted, this usually happens during actual beta phases, but at the rate of how patches come out (which is way more than any game I've seen of recent times, even Starcraft II), I can see these next two months being experimental.
 
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HeavyLobster

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Silver lining is microscopic, if existent at all, for mid-low tiers with average to poor mobility.

This adjustment rewards offensive play at the expense of balance. I don't see how anyone, save for the top-tier mains and those solely obsessed with seeing this game become more like Melee, can be happy with this alone. This patch should have came with a considerable amount of helpful buffs to all mid-low tiers to accommodate for this universal change.

Smash 4 should push for optimizing both. Yes, mathematical reality dictates a difference between true balance and ultra-high offensive play, but trying to actualize both until a crossroads is met should be the approach for getting this game to be more competitive.
Don't need ultra-offensive play. The game as of 1.1.0 had a decent mix of offense and defense, and didn't need much in the way of mechanical changes outside of slower shield regeneration, and most other problems with shield could better be dealt with by character specific endlag reductions and/or added shield damage, to give appropriate characters a way around shields other than generic Dthrow combos. Existing heavyweights would be very scary for shields with slower shield regeneration and minor frame data buffs, considering the lack of shield HP already in this game. The reality is that we had a pretty good game and now we have what's probably a worse one because some people are obsessed with this hyper offense unicorn and won't shut up about it.
 

Mario766

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Pikachu has no one?

It's okay. Ike's still got a winning MU against Pikachu.
 

DanGR

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Nnnnnnnnnno.


I'm mostly going off theorycraft from crunching numbers, but Luma should have very good frame data on shield now. Its hitlag values are x1.5~2.0 on most of its attacks, that hitlag actually comes into play on shield now, and it's separate from Rosalina so it's effectively all frame advantage. Luma!Rapid jab ender locks the opponent for 16 frames, which means with a desync setup you can do things like this as a true blockstring:


Aside from that, Luma jabs should be even safer than they used to, and Lunar Landings should always get a free grab if shielded. There's probably more she gets out of this, but I don't have access to the game currently or I'd be labbing hard right now.

I don't know how what she gets compares to what the rest of the cast gets though, so in practice her benefits might be less significant/more situational.
These are great and all but other characters just seem to get so much more. I also play against players that don't let the rapid jab even start. They jump or roll away after jab 2 before I can get the rapid jabs, so that tech is kinda useless.

-Peach gets safe shield pressure on pretty much anything she does.
-Roy gets way safer crossups, safe jabs, safe upairs on block, etc.
-Sheik murders Luma for free. Run up->shield was literally half the gameplan against sheik because she can't throw you and follow up at low percents without getting hit by Luma.
-ZSS shield pressure with nair is absolutely monstrous.
-Pikachu, a matchup I thought was okay before (I was optimistic. Others thought it was terrible) just got waaay worse with the way the shieldstun changes effect electric properties.
-Link, a matchup I thought was slightly in Rosa's favor just got worse. It's way harder to break his zone now. (You have to approach in this matchup or Luma dies)
-This is disheartening as well:
I murdered a Rosa in tourney today. He couldnt punish ANYTHING and Luma just got obliterated. Literally just did run up fair and when he tried to punish on shield, I just shoryued or rolled.
This is how my matches have been going all day. You can just throw yourself at Rosa now and kill Luma at the same time.

Dtilt is safer on block, but it was pretty safe before the changes anyways.
I admit I need to play around with ftilt more and Rosalina in general, but it doesn't look good. :(
 

Mario766

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Ike murders Luma for free as well, for the same reasons as Ryu.

By that I mean back air literally will annhilate Luma for free, and is safe on shield. kekekeke
 

G. Stache

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Yes, it is.

Your post is saltier than the Dead Sea, though. .
Dually noted. What I usually do is get extremely mad for a bit, then get over myself. Excuse the temper tantrum, I'm pretty sure I'm bipolar when it comes to debates (though this is the internet, I'm sure you've seen your lot already).

Pikachu has no one?

It's okay. Ike's still got a winning MU against Pikachu.
Fair enough. But even then, I feel as if the Ike development is still growing (don't really care much for paying attention to Ike. Feel free to correct me) while pika has Esam for pika rep. And while he's inconsistent, I feel that he's more than enough. So, I'm basically trying to ask in the most convoluted way possible: is there an Ike that you feel has a good chance of beating esams pika? Because top level play is what counts the most, imo.

My main has never been buffed and isn't even half as good as Luigi is now. Your saltiness is unwarranted.
Again, fair enough. I didn't mean to come out as THAT salty. Consider this an attempt as an apology. Might I ask who your main is, though? I'm still sure that he's at least half as good as luigi is now. The nerf was pretty significant (not nearly justifiable enough for the amount of salt I threw out in one post, but it was still pretty bad)
 
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UberMadman

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Again, fair enough. I didn't mean to come out as THAT salty. Consider this an attempt as an apology.
Honestly, your post wasn't as bad as most of the Luigi boards. I feel really bad for them, but they're... not taking this well, to say the least.

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if Luigi was still a top 20 character after this, but let's just see how the meta pans out from here.
 
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Vipermoon

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Alright guys well shield hitlag = attacker hitlag so Marth and Roy's sour spots are no longer famous for their shield safety. For those of you that wanted Lucina to be closer to Marth and Roy's level, have fun.
 

Emblem Lord

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Alright guys well shield hitlag = attacker hitlag so Marth and Roy's sour spots are no longer famous for their shield safety. For those of you that wanted Lucina to be closer to Marth and Roy's level, have fun.
lol. No. Bruh this is a universal change that effects how much shield stun all attacks have. Everything swordsman do is now safer. They are all now basically un****wittable after being blocked.
 

Thinkaman

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YOU ARE NOW IN THE THEORYCRAFT ZONE!

(j/k you were here the whole time)

:4mario: Fireball is a big winner today, and nair can potentially be safe on block in ideal timings? Landing dair is going to be less punishable on block. Wonder how Scalding Fludd is affected in all this.
:4luigi: Luigi's Fireball loves this, obviously. On the defensive side, because of his friction, Luigi doesn't actually lose out of much from this--he was already failing to punish tons of stuff OoS, nothing new here. News of Luigi's death has been greatly exaggerated.
:4peach: How could a character who spends her time floating, pressuring shields, and using projectiles not be one of the biggest winners from these changes?
:4bowser: Mixed bag, hardest character to predict imo. On one hand, wow Bowser's already limited defensive options seem crippled to oblivion. On the other, he really didn't have a potent OoS game in Smash 4 anyway. Furthermore, Bowser is one of the characters most well-equipped to break shields. (and then punish) D-tilt is now a block-string and does more than half a shield! If Dash Claw is in the mix (it has crazy scary blockstrings now), Bowser is pretty clearly a winner here.
:4yoshi: Look, we know Dair is now absurdly scary, but the added safety on fair, bair, and even landing nair (often safe on block?) can't be overlooked. Yoshi, like Mario, is definitely going to benefit a lot.
:rosalina: TBD. Hard to analyze, but a lot of data points suggest Rosalina being a big winner. Tons of blockstrings enabled by Luma (in theory), and Rosalina already liked sheilding less than most characters. We'll see.
:4bowserjr: One of the biggest winners, though it's subtle. The extra safety looks like it's a tipping point on his smashes, AC aerials, and landing dair, plus Mechakoopas and fair landing hitbox being better are nice. As for OoS options being worse, who cares? You're Bowser Jr.
:4wario: No idea, but I don't see him as one of the biggest winners compared to what other people are getting, from Bowser Jr. to Pikachu. Probably hurt overall.
:4dk: Unlike Bowser, I'm not sure if DK gets any meaningful shield threat out of this. Like okay, maybe Kong Cyclong is better on block, great. Added block safety on bair is good for him, but let's be real: 1.1.0 DK lived for the grab, and now that's way, way harder agaisnt the majority of the cast. DK is one of the biggest losers here.
:4diddy: Bananas are a little bit better, and bair specifically might be almost safe on block in more cases, but otherwise I'm not... actually seeing a lot of advantage for Diddy here. He loves his grabs, and attacking into Diddy without abandon risks them less. Like DK, Diddy will miss huge grab reward off of shield camping.
:4gaw: Eh. Also relied on grab reward, but the added safety on dash attack and I guess Chef are somewhat valuable. His aerials are all either low landing lag or having landing hitboxes, but I'm unsure if any are close enough that ~4 more frames will reach a tipping point of safety. I'm ruling G&W a loser here, but keeping an open mind.
:4littlemac: Obvious winner, to a limit. He has no projectiles, and fights projectiles with speed. He doesn't mind attacking shields in most matchups, and this only cements his safety. His OoS options were limited, low reward, and irrelevant in contrast with his broader ground moveset. Nothing about this change really "enables" Mac to do anything he couldn't already, but it is almost strictly on his side.
:4link: Can perform blockstrings with his high-damage low-landing-lag aerials and has a projectile-centric game, so he might seem an obvious winner here. But tether grabs are probably hurt by this though--now even fewer things can be grabbed by tethers, both fast aerials and random low-endlag ground moves. Plus, more shield stun on projectiles is great and all, but can Link convert those to grabs? No, he has to focus on blockstrings. Link's defensive woes will be magnified, but maybe like Bowser Jr. the fact that he already sucked in this department means the damage is contained? We'll see.
:4zelda: Loses. None of her ground moves or aerials become safe. Din's and Phantom are unaffected in usefulness. Her decent OoS defensive game is one of her only good points, and that has taken a hit.
:4sheik: Not as much of a winner as I first though. Nair and fair are considerably safer when done blindly into a shield, but it requires late timing so it's a risk. Mostly a problem for those with slow grabs or otherwise poor OoS options. Otherwise, I don't know if Sheik actually benefits that much outside of those moves. Her ground moveset doesn't seem to benefit much that I can see, and Needles aren't really any better. Sheik benefits less than many other characters, and to my surprise after making this list might not even be a "true winner" in the top half of the list.
:4ganondorf: I can't see Ganon as anything but a loser here. Unlike Bowser, Ganon doesn't really have any meaningful way of threatening to break shields in his everyday game plan--nice as it to Ganon is when the situation does present itself. The added safety on bair and u-smash is nice I guess, but otherwise nothing really matters. If dair AC'd we'd be having a different conversation, but alas. His OoS options getting worse hardly matters, but Ganon relied on shield more than any character in the game. Better powershield everything, boss.
:4tlink: See Link,but with more projectiles and less blockstrings. Projectiles good, tether bad, whatever. Might also help his f-smash more than most moves.
:4samus: See Toon Link, but I think the pros are stronger on Samus and the cons less. Landing uair might sometimes be almost safe, scary. But I dunno the character that well, so we'll see.
:4zss: Landing aerials are almost all safe on block now, if timed right. I think these outweigh the costs of losing d-smash safety and having a tether, but it's still a mixed bag. Probably a winner, more than Sheik.
:4pit: I think a few more frames of safety will definitely push Pit's already fast and safe smashes past a tipping point where they become really formidable moves that any character would like to trade for. His aerials are basically unaffected, and arrows benefit basically none, but that alone is a pretty big deal for Pit and outweighs the defensive cost.
:4palutena: First off, her grab-centric game is going to take a big hit. She's almost definitely a loser here. The idea that her smashes become safe from this is also silly. But it's not all doom and gloomy. The change helps her jab game more than most, and f-tilt is WAY better--you can't dodge out of it, and unshielding is possible but gets hit. (And the move does a ton of shield damage.) Auto-Reticle and Explosive Flame now have proper blockstun. Finally, landing fair is probably safe on block against most characters when timed optimally, and suffers less punishment otherwise. One of the more minor losers, probably.
:4marth: Man, I don't even know.
:4myfriends: He's almost definitely a loser, like Ganon, but not as bad because he relies on shield a bit less and has nair. The added safety on everything else doesn't matter much, though. It doesn't reach a tipping point where it makes a difference.
:4robinm: ARCFIRE BLOCKSTUN. ARCTHUNDER SUPER BLOCKSTUN. HIGH DAMAGE ELECTRIC AERIALS AND SMASHES. Robin is waaaay better, even if his reliance on shield means it doesn't come without some cost. If you told me Robin was the biggest winner today, I'd believe you. But we'll see.
:4duckhunt: Character who relies almost exclusively on projectiles and dodges? Uh, duh, of course he likes these changes. He even had lackluster OoS options to begin with.
:4kirby: Well, nair and uair are probably safe on block with good timing, but the range means this isn't practical as Sheik or ZSS's similar cases. Dair being less punishable on block is nice, probably just enough to matter looking at the numbers, and multi-jump bair being better on shield is strictly a good thing. Otherwise, seems like Kirby is an obvious loser.
:4dedede: Well, DDD enjoys a safer SH AC bair and jabs/f-tilt. Otherwise, this just seems bad for DDD, who relied on OoS grab a lot. Definite loser imo.
:4metaknight: A fast character with an already almost safe dash attack who relies on multi-jump aerials and is motivated to constantly aggressor? Clearly one of the bigger winners, in spite of having no projectiles and lackluster landing lag numbers/hitboxes.
:4fox: Landing nair is sometimes safe on block, but meh. He's like MK with regards to this change, but without the mechanical affinity--just the strategic. He would like it, except that he has no way to enjoy it. Unless I'm missing something, Fox loses the most of all the top characters.
:4falco: I don't see how this benefits Falco. Looking at the numbers, it almost does, but nothing ever reaches a tipping point to matter. Extra safety on down-b is pretty sweet, and Falco isn't disadvantaged by having a worse shield as most characters imo. So probably a loser, but hard to say?
:4pikachu: Oh dear, electric hitbox blockstrings everywhere. Safe-on-block quick attack for days. Super obvious winner.
:4charizard: Character who relies on amazing OoS options, has a great anti-shield game, no approach projectiles, and dismal landing lag. Huge loser. Everything is worse, nothing is better. Everything that was good against shield isn't any better, everything that was punishable on block is still just as punishable. Probably the biggest loser of this.
:4lucario: Yeah yeah, aura sphere charge, whatever. Let's also talk about safe on landing nair, and safer dair? Unhappy with having a worse shield with his poor neutral, though. Overall a slight winner.
:4jigglypuff: "Jigglypuff is worse because shield breaks hurt her more than anyone else!" Yeah, but only relative to roster size. Jigglypuff has the tools to rarely need to shield anyway, though her high-damage throws and decent grab range make it a sad loss nonetheless. Jigglypuff loves having safer multi-jump aerials though, even if none of them become safe landing options. With Pound in your toolkit, shield damage mattering more is important to her. It even makes Rollout better, in a small way! Jigglypuff is a winner here, folks.
:4greninja: Landing nair is nice, otherwise I don't think he is changed much. Probably neutral.
:4rob: Landing nair is safe but still slow startup, f-smash maybe safe, projectiles are safer but doesn't matter much, slightly annoyed at worse OoS options. Probably neutral to slight loser.
:4ness: First off, the ability to maybe attack Ness's shield head on and not get grabbed is kinda sort of a huge, matchup defining deal. But it's not all bad for him. PK Fire and PK Thunder are trivially better. Fair and bair are nontrivially safer on block, which is pretty big. D-tilt into repeat vs. grab is now a true 50/50 on block. Ultimately, I expect Ness to be somewhat neutral.
:4villagerf: Character who relies on projectiles for approach and safety. Uh, duh, obviously a winner. But don't expect Villager to be doing any crazy blockstrings--except for maybe, the math just isn't there within Villager's moveset.
:4olimar: No clue honestly, but purple are going to be a better projectile and yellow attacks are going to be significantly safer.
:4wiifit: Lag-cancelled weighted header is now truly safe on block, though grab is not quite guaranteed. Jumbo Hoops cannot be counter-attacked between hits OoS by most characters, though you can still roll away or dodge. Otherwise, WFT doesn't seem to have gained much. Her landing lag is a bit too high to truly abuse it, and her projectiles outside of weighted header aren't really used for approach or safety. The added safety on her ground moves isn't enough to matter to anything I can see. Overall a loser, especially without Weighted Header and Jumbo Hoops.
:4shulk: He has a safe landing nair, crazy shield damage, and shieldlocking d-smash you can apply Buster too--too bad it pokes most characters instead of breaking shields. Shulk also has the tools to play defense without just sitting in shield. I expect Shulk to be the heavy character most benefitted by these changes, but it will all depends on what kind of blockstrings people manage to find.
:4drmario: Like Mario but worse, because he's slower and relies on shield more. Plus, he relies on his AMAZING up-b, which is now less accessible as an OoS tool.
:4lucina: No idea, but the gap between her and Marth could be somewhat normalized if what we're hearing is true regarding safety.
:4pacman: No clue, but my gut says that between his projectiles, dash attack, and never having good OoS optiosn to begin with, he's a winner.
:4megaman: A slight winner, thanks to a projectile focused game and less reliance on shield than most. Nothing radical though.
:4sonic: No clue actually, but I don't see anything either way that should be radically different.
:4mewtwo: I am skeptical that any of Mewtwo's stuff becomes safe, but I guess we'll see. Jab and d-tilt could benefit quite a bit, in some contexts. Oh, and D-smash probably becomes truly safe! But Mewtwo's reliance on grab and his modest reliance on shield makes him an unhappy floating lemur with these changes. At least Shadow Ball is safer, that's nice.
:4lucas:Almost all of Lucas's aerials and spaced f-tilt become safe on block. D-tilt and PSI Magnet are still punishable but meaningfully safer, safe against certain characters. PK Fire is safer, PK Thunder is better but still bad. Clearly great for Lucas, in spite of his tether grab.
:4feroy: Not sure. I'm skeptical he can engineer blockstrings. I expect him to be hurt more than helped, but I dunno, he has good safety for his damage already, so we might see a lot of tipping point contexts.
:4ryu: Obvious winner between f-tilt, weak u/d-tilt, and nair; duh. It even helps his projectile safety, though it matters less than say Mario or Luigi, obviously. Do note that OoS SRK is hurt though! That does matter.
:4miibrawl: Obviously worse, unless there's some crazy potential for a blockstring that I can't see.
:4miigun: Already meh OoS projectile-focused character? Obviously improved.
:4miisword: Hard to say--do any of his attacks really cross a tipping point of safety with these 4-6 frames on block? I can see it with d-tilt. I expect close to an overall neutral.

Whelp, that's that.
 

Vipermoon

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lol. No. Bruh this is a universal change that effects how much shield stun all attacks have. Everything swordsman do is now safer. They are all now basically un****wittable after being blocked.
Bruh, you are confusing hitlag with shield stun. Shield stun happens after hitlag.

Two changes this patch:
  1. The shielder now experiences the same hitlag as the attacker when a move has a hitlag modifier.
  2. Shield stun is increased.
THESE ARE TWO SEPARATE THINGS.
 

|RK|

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More theorycraft: After some thought, this might be an awful patch. 1.1.0 felt like most characters were semi-viable at least. This patch feels like more characters were moved straight to unviable. But it's still only day one/two, so.
 

LancerStaff

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:4pit: I think a few more frames of safety will definitely push Pit's already fast and safe smashes past a tipping point where they become really formidable moves that any character would like to trade for. His aerials are basically unaffected, and arrows benefit basically none, but that alone is a pretty big deal for Pit and outweighs the defensive cost.
Fsmash definitely safer, but I'm not entirely sure to what extent. Max freshness and ever so little charge means you can't escape if you blocked it, and if it doesn't have enough charge you might end up dodging right into it. Outside of that IDK. It's potentially a very good killing option now... Obviously something he needed.

Didn't mess around with Dsmash, but now I see why I should've. Rapid jab is decent against shields if they're chipped a bit though, won't break but it'll get the opponent into the attack. Not sure if that'll be useful or not.

And ZSS was probably Pit's biggest obstacle. With how this has effected them it's potentially better for Pit... Again, it's all theoretical. I've got high hopes though.
 
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Locke 06

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Food for thought: the gap between shield drop OoS options and regular OoS options has been decreased due to the mechanic change:

-Shield stun eating into shield lock frames.

This change mostly applies to punishing approaches, dash>shield, and shielding projectiles, since you will be shielding a hit during your shield lock frames and not after. While increased shield stun has been found, it seems that shield stun is less for projectiles than it is for... non projectiles (I'd call them normals but yeah). Most projectile users are not going to be punished with an OoS option on shield, and the best option is usually to drop shield and advance, the act of which has been buffed on a missed powershield.

While projectile characters can force shields, the act of forcing a shield from a distance is not nearly as strong as it used to be, as any shield stun gained from this patch is likely decreasing the total amount of frames before a shield drop due to eating the shield lock frames. Also, projectiles are gaining less shield stun than normals anyway.

Now specifically Mega Man, who at the moment I believe is a clear loser in this patch, another mechanic has hit him hard.

- Hitlag of the attacker now matches hitlag of the defender (on shield and otherwise).

Pellets and charge shot all have .3% hitlag modifiers. Decreased hitlag on shield means his most valuable move and "safe when spaced" KO option is less safe on block. While hitlag for pellets may have gone from 2-->1 (I imagine it is already small), fsmash is now unsafe at all distances due to the hitlag decrease, and shield stun eating shield lock frames.

(Perfect) Shield>Utilt is a staple of Mega Man's metagame. Same with Usmash OoS. Now these punish less things than it did before.


There's my day 2 reaction. It's hard to be a defensive character when offense gets buffed.
 
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Mecakoto

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More theorycraft: After some thought, this might be an awful patch. 1.1.0 felt like most characters were semi-viable at least. This patch feels like more characters were moved straight to unviable. But it's still only day one/two, so.
I think the Luigi boards agrees
Their board imploded lol
 

Minordeth

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What a bizarre patch. I'm assuming Nintamco is tentatively patching us toward something, as others have speculated. I'm not even sure what to react to. This clearly is going to reshuffle the meta around, but it's obviously too soon to tell how. I know Falco's dtilt is hilarious now, though. And Robin has become Shield Pressure: The Character: The Game, along with Ryu.

This kind of thing is going to take months to really get a handle on, however. And Nintamco is going to introduce phase 2 just as we see the dust settle.

I'm calling this, Patch 1.1.1: There Will Be Blockstrings.
 

Routa

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Wario's Nair and Fair (maybe even Bair) are now a bit safer than before. Nice indeed, but do to resent changes to shield mechanics people will be playing a bit less defensively and use less their shield... Well let's say that patch is 50/50 for Wario.

Also I think Swordfighter's Dair and N-special(1) became a little more useful (and safer).
 
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Thinkaman

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On one hand, the results of such a comprehensive, underlying change cannot be underestimated or predicted accurately.

On the other, I think it's being overstated a lot. I think you guys are overestimating how relevant non-powershielding is in high level play.


I just rewatched the first Nairo vs. Zero game from Evo, as an example.
In the entire match, I counted 4 non-powershield blocks--all Zero blocking Nairo. 2 of these Zero got a punish off that he would still have gotten with this change. The other 2, he couldn't get anything off of. This giant, sweeping change... would have had literally zero impact on this randomly selected game.

This is in comparison to the spot dodges, rolls, and powershields which were too numerous to count.


Normally, I accuse you guys of tunnel vision of only looking at national top 8 games. But today, it looks like I'm the one who has to appeal to the altar of top-level play.
 

Locke 06

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On one hand, the results of such a comprehensive, underlying change cannot be underestimated or predicted accurately.

On the other, I think it's being overstated a lot. I think you guys are overestimating how relevant non-powershielding is in high level play.


I just rewatched the first Nairo vs. Zero game from Evo, as an example.
In the entire match, I counted 4 non-powershield blocks--all Zero blocking Nairo. 2 of these Zero got a punish off that he would still have gotten with this change. The other 2, he couldn't get anything off of. This giant, sweeping change... would have had literally zero impact on this randomly selected game.

This is in comparison to the spot dodges, rolls, and powershields which were too numerous to count.


Normally, I accuse you guys of tunnel vision of only looking at national top 8 games. But today, it looks like I'm the one who has to appeal to the altar of top-level play.
Shield stun, however, applies to powershields too. Which makes it applicable.
 

PK Gaming

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I took :4robinm:for a test run and oh boy is this character thriving under these changes

The name of the game is SH Levin Sword aerials. Previously, these were fairly easy to punish; unless you spaced them perfectly (even then...) you'd be eat a grab or worse. But now? They're most almost impossible to punish when spaced correctly. That's HUGE for Robin's neutral game since he's capable of covering way more ranges now. And I haven't covered Arcthunder which is significantly more reliable, or the fact that Wind Jab straight up pierces shields at close ranges.
 
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Vipermoon

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Except now powershielding reduces shield stun, which most data suggests results in the same values as before.
I thought data suggested it was about 25% less than 1.1.1 shield stun? If that's the case, that is still a lot more shield stun than pre-patch.
 

UberMadman

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Good post Thinkaman Thinkaman , but...
:4sonic: No clue actually, but I don't see anything either way that should be radically different.
I can. Spindash is actually hard to punish on block now, especially the Down B version, making it easier for Sonic to escape without getting shieldgrabbed. Plus, fair is theoretically better on shield, though landing lag is still a concern.
 

Locke 06

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Except now powershielding reduces shield stun, which most data suggests results in the same values as before.
While true that powershields reduce shield stun, it is still more than pre-patch shield stun.

First value is pre-patch, second value is post patch normal shield, 3rd value is post patch powershield.

Link's Spin Attack shieldstun goes from 6 -> 11 -> 8.
Link's Jab 1 and Jab 2 shieldstun goes from 1-> 4 -> 3.
Link's Jab 3 shieldstun goes from 2 -> 5 -> 4.

Edit: I've been out of school too long. Gotta cite my sources. Prepatch-->post patch data. Powershield data
 
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Flamecircle

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Thinkamans post is good, it'll be fun to think about in the future.

I really don't know what to think about megaman.

Megaman always had a strong grab game, which should be worse now with more stun.

But has has metal blade, which is a multihit projectile that can be held. Isn't that very strong, considering how much Robin is enjoying multihit projectiles? It has nowhere near as many hits, but the flexibility is unmatched.

I just don't know man.
 

UberMadman

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Thinkamans post is good, it'll be fun to think about in the future.

I really don't know what to think about megaman.

Megaman always had a strong grab game, which should be worse now with more stun.

But has has metal blade, which is a multihit projectile that can be held. Isn't that very strong, considering how much Robin is enjoying multihit projectiles? It has nowhere near as many hits, but the flexibility is unmatched.

I just don't know man.
I think Mega Man will be fine.
 

Ffamran

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Close Quarters Combat

Not really a fan of the term since there's more to it than the name implies, but blame Snake for bringing it along to Smash Bros.
The funny thing is that CQC refers to a martial art in context to Metal Gear and a tactic in terms of military strategy. I swear it used to be called CQB (close quarters battle) for the military tactic, but now it's called CQC. Whatever... Thing is that CQC/CQB as a tactic involves really fast takeovers usually with multiple people, a team... So, more like doubles in Melee with all the shield pressuring and high offense. In other words, it kind of makes no sense when used in context of Smash.

The fact we have "normal" terms like close-range, mid-range, and long-range not being used along with IASA and FAF's existence when total frames makes total sense since it assumes you're smart enough to think you're going to act 1 frame after the total frames is just... convoluted. It doesn't help that mid- and long-range combat is associated with camping, spamming, and cowardly play while close-range is everything that stands for the good of humanity.

It's fine for Snake players to call their close-range game CQC since it's what (Solid) Snake uses (in MGS4) kind of like how Ryu players will refer to moves like in Street Fighter: cr. LK, st. HP, DP, etc. Saying Fox has a good CQC game makes no sense when Fox doesn't even practice CQC. Fox does have a good close-range game, though. The equivalent would be saying Captain Falcon's a good Muay Thai fighter... I'm sorry, but what? Yeah, he has knee moves, but outside of his knee pummel, they're all freaking impractical, especially his jab 3. ZSS's flying knee dash attack looks more practical than the Capt.'s slow Fair. Logically, his Fair should also have constant damage instead of a ridiculously strong sweet-spot, but that's another story which would question stylization vs. logic. Eh, semantics... Still wish IASA and FAF would die off, though...

As weird as it might sound for a nearly year-old game, I feel like this is a sort of beta testing sort of patch. Like they want to see what impact this will have and THEN they'll change characters accordingly or completely revert it if things become insane. As for how they didn't forsee certain implications and make preemptive adjustments your guess is as good as mine but it's the only reason I can imagine they would change like, nothing character-wise beyond the Luigi nerf. I dunno, maybe they figured we'd find the busted stuff faster? Y'never know with these folks I guess.
Speaking of which, since patch 1.0.8, they haven't modified any move startup except for Greninja's Water Shuriken having 5? less frames of startup. Patch 1.0.8 had Falco and Ike as the most major examples of characters who received startup changes to their attacks not attack unlike Greninja and I think someone else just got a startup change... too lazy to open a tab and check... Anyway, Falco had Uair, Fair, and technically Up Smash's second hit while Ike had dash attack, Ftilt, and Fair - I count the top hitboxes being added as startup changes. Charizard had a startup change to Dtilt and I think Link did too, but those are only single moves. I'm starting to wonder if Falco and Ike were "beta testing" move startup changes. End lag's simple and can be less subtle than startup. End lag change can make a move safer or more punishable, but startup? That can make a move both safer or more punishable and more or less versatile. Decreased total frames on Fox's Blaster just made it safer, but decreased startup on Greninja's Water Shuriken affected its total frames and made it a quicker projectile to use (uncharged). Done too much and they could be an issue; we've seen this with Falco who can rack up 20% faster with his current, ZSS Uair than 22% with his pre-patch 1.0.8 Uair and be able to chain Fair much quicker or how Ike can punish much more reliably with dash attack and how Fair's adjusted hitboxes not only lets him cover better, but combo from D- or U-throw using the top hit when it couldn't before. Recent startup changes were mostly single moves and even to less notable moves like customs which were abandoned by the competitive scene right after EVO. I'm going to assume they don't want to pull another Falco/Ike startup change where more than 1 move is changed. Not only that, but they also changed damage, knockback, and end lag and/or landing lag for them as well - multiple property changes. That's 4 changes to each move for them. Drastic changes compared to more conservative changes like just end lag changes, just damage changes, just angle changes, or just knockback changes. That happened in this patch and pretty much all patches except for 1.0.8.

I'm seeing it as, "Okay, Falco and Ike had some drastic changes, but they're not that insane with what we did for patch 1.0.8", and patch 1.1.0 and 1.1.1 were dialed down, so there are startup changes, but not with other, many property changes like what happened in 1.0.8. As for another "beta test", anyone thinking that 1.1.0's hit lag on-shield changes were a "beta test" to what happened in 1.1.1? Ryu benefited from not having to deal with hit lag on-shield like in 1.0.8 as much, but now, it kind of extends to everyone, but in terms of shield stun.

YOU ARE NOW IN THE THEORYCRAFT ZONE!

(j/k you were here the whole time)

:4falco: I don't see how this benefits Falco. Looking at the numbers, it almost does, but nothing ever reaches a tipping point to matter. Extra safety on down-b is pretty sweet, and Falco isn't disadvantaged by having a worse shield as most characters imo. So probably a loser, but hard to say?
Duuuuuude... Falco's Reflector was -27 on-shield after shield drop assuming you hit on frame 5 - wouldn't really make a significant difference at frame 14. Even if it was, hypothetically, -17 on-shield after shield drop, that's still pretty bad. None of his Reflectors were safe on-shield. The biggest things would be his jab?, Ftilt, and Smashes being safer on-shield. Those would make Smashes on-shield not as painful and allow him to slap shielding people a bit safer with jab and Ftilt. Bonus points goes to his Dtilt, Uair, Bair, and even late hit Dair on-shield. Dtilt is Falco's safest option on the ground and it was at worst -17 on-shield and -10 after shield drop with the disjoint which is more or less his Ftilt range... It's such a silly move. At least make it look like its power can be justified like a nasty leg sweep instead of a tail swipe... What kind of feathers are that sharp?

At the same time, Falco's sluggish and more shield stun means more issues with dealing with punishing stuff when you run slower than an obese man. Falco's going to end up fighting more and more like a real boxer with stuff like this. Dude didn't really have a mid-range or approach game, so he was reliant on movement, baiting, and shielding, but now shields aren't as safe, so he's going to be even more reliant on movement and baiting. Freaking bird's going to end up trying to never get hit, space well, move around as close as possible against his opponent, and never shield unless he's cornered or when it's absolutely necessary - that was probably a thing even before this patch. You never see boxers stand still and block. That's a death sentence.
 
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NairWizard

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On one hand, the results of such a comprehensive, underlying change cannot be underestimated or predicted accurately.

On the other, I think it's being overstated a lot. I think you guys are overestimating how relevant non-powershielding is in high level play.


I just rewatched the first Nairo vs. Zero game from Evo, as an example.
In the entire match, I counted 4 non-powershield blocks--all Zero blocking Nairo. 2 of these Zero got a punish off that he would still have gotten with this change. The other 2, he couldn't get anything off of. This giant, sweeping change... would have had literally zero impact on this randomly selected game.

This is in comparison to the spot dodges, rolls, and powershields which were too numerous to count.


Normally, I accuse you guys of tunnel vision of only looking at national top 8 games. But today, it looks like I'm the one who has to appeal to the altar of top-level play.
I assume you're only counting shields on which attacks actually landed. In that event, this analysis elides consideration of the times where the blocker didn't get attacked. In other words, it's not just the act of blocking an attack that has been altered by this patch... it's the threat imposed by shield, which prevented poorly spaced attacks all by itself before. Now you can misspace some attacks pretty significantly and often come off clean unless you eat a powershield. That is a significant change even for top level play.

Basically, instead of looking only at what happened because Nairo hit ZeRo's shield, look also at what Nairo had to do because ZeRo was holding shield.
 
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TTTTTsd

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:4drmario: Like Mario but worse, because he's slower and relies on shield more. Plus, he relies on his AMAZING up-b, which is now less accessible as an OoS tool.
Yeah I'd basically agree with that, although Up+B OoS is STILL very potent as it's still that awesome Frame 3 dream eater. Doc's Bair now hits every shield in the game (well, it did before) but now it is safer. I think he has slight net gains overall mostly on his Bair, Dair (ESPECIALLY HIS Dair), and Dr. Tornado. Slightly winner, mostly neutral IMO though.
 

bc1910

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After hours of playing I'm concluding that Greninja somewhat wins from this patch. Not as much as Pika/Ryu but he's certainly not neutral to these changes.

Landing Nair is nigh unpunishable and links seamlessly into jabs. On hit well, it's Greninja's main combo starter. Landing Fair is also unpunishable but you don't even have to space it well now, as long as you don't jump right into their shield (which you CAN with Nair). Walling Fox out with Fair and Ftilt got a lot easier.

Similar to Bowjow and Pac-Man he has dreadful OoS options anyway and shouldn't be using it much so he doesn't suffer from the change himself.

Mobility just got more important (the ability to straight up avoid rather than shield attacks) and Greninja has the best overall mobility in the game so yeah.

Sheik always butchered us, shield or not, but at now we can Nair her safely for badly spaced Fairs or tomahawks.

Powershielding will now be more important. Greninja doesn't mind this for zoning because shuriken is chargeable and travels fast, thus beating powershield reaction time and actually benefitting from the increased shieldstun (you can charge it very slightly to beat opponents who try to react and powershield the uncharged version) while other projectiles like Tjolt and fireballs can be easily powershielded. Up close, Greninja will rely on well spaced Fairs and Ftilts to stay safe on powershield.

Essentially we made small gains and lost almost nothing because our shield was terrible anyway.
 
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