Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Aunt Jemima]

As Emblem Lord said, Kirby has the reward, but he does not have the means to get it.

This is made worse by the patch.

curbee is dead.

 

[LightLV]

whatever, fine then he sucks, delete the kirby boards guys

 

[Lavani]

I'm pretty sure that's talking about on shield drop, not instant OoS options. D-Air's last hit does 2% and the move has like 17 frames of landing lag.

My numbers weren't factoring in shield drop, actually. Landing lag overlaps with the hitlag on the landing hitbox, so you get 5 frames off your landing lag on hit/block for free.

I did typo and meant to say -12/-8 (-5/-1 after dropping shield), though.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

my point is, nothing Kirby had is worse than before this patch. So whatever it is you're complaining that he doesn't have, isn't something he was missing before this patch, and people are complaining as if he never had anything at all.

If KIRBY, with his frame data, range and hitboxes, is suddenly garbagetier, then i can think of alot of other characters who should be way worse off than him, if the thing you guys are saying is killing him is just...the ability to shield and punish?

You obviously don't play Kirby.

Kirby pre-patch struggled with approaching, shields, and mobility (with smaller things like being light and having a sub-par punish game), but his good combos and edge-guarding made up for it.

Now shieldstun being upped, Kirby is still unsafe on shields, meaning it is still a weakness of his. This also means he can't shield approaches anymore, or run up and shield as one of his approach options. This also nerfs his punish game because shield and punish was his good form of punishing.

Kirby got nerfed hard due to this. He has almost no approach options now, his punish game is bad too so he can't hang back. He is still unsafe on other people's shields. It is more risky to go for combos now, etc. Having good frame data is good and all, but it's not amazing if he can't approach or punish approaches. His hitboxes are bad because his range and mobility is still bad.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

My numbers weren't factoring in shield drop, actually. Landing lag overlaps with the hitlag on the landing hitbox, so you get 5 frames off your landing lag on hit/block for free.

I did typo and meant to say -12/-8 (-5/-1 after dropping shield), though.

I thought that didn't apply when you're hitting a shield?

Those numbers really don't sound right. I tested it several times with Spirst. He could consistently punish me before I could move with a turnaround jab. Even testing it in training mode with the L thing proves to be punishable.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Y'all have a frame 1 jumpsquat when it comes to jumping to conclusions.

 

[Planty]

So on
I cannot confirm it, but if you shield her Nair, she could grab you and that's a frame trap against many characters. I had heard Dabuz say it's possible pre patch, but I never tested it. (If somebody can test this, that would be cool).

More importantly, how does this patch effect Rosalina's general gameplan? Her matchup spread most likely just became more polarizing. Against the characters with poorer neutral games like G&W, she has a bigger adavantage because Run up and shield is no longer that good. Against higher tiers like Sheik and ZSS(the ones already capable of playing neutral without abusing defensive options all day), I feel like she has worse matchups against them. As a defensive character, it hurts to lose a really strong defensive option. She now has to rely on being more aggressive to survive.

The Nair thing mentionned previously may help make her a more aggressive character, which would make her more interesting to watch. Rosalina mains may have to start incorporating more fancy stuff that we know about but don't use, like grab release combos, footstool combos, and detached Luma stuff that kills really early but has a small window that is effective. This patch may have given her a sort of "Diddyfication" without really nerfing anything major. She will be forced to really more on creative stuff to succeed in the metagame. That's just my 2 cents though, and I await to see how her gameplan will change.

Also, I want to talk about and . Ryu is almost certainly the winner of this patch. Increased shield stun means he's actually safe now, something that he was severally lacking upon release. Is weak u-tilt on shield into collarbone breaker a thing? Based on these day 1 analysis things, I can EASILY see Ryu in top 5. Aerial acceleration/deceleration would be great, but what else does Ryu need???

Now on Fox, I know very little about Fox compared to other people here. The thing I do know however is that Fox always did struggle against shield. How does this patch help fix that problem?

 

[Kurri ★]

Hey guys, another thing regarding Palutena's customs: Explosive Flame seemingly no longer knocks people out of their shield on the last hit. Played it against someone else recently. People can now completely block it.

This makes me sad, but with the way shieldstun works I understand.

 

[Planty]

Y'all have a frame 1 jumpsquat when it comes to jumping to conclusions.

You do realize that Smash 4 has more shieldstun than Melee now, right?

 

[|RK|]

Alright, tested a lot with Spirst.

The main two things I have is that Lucas is great and Kirby sucks.

I'm not too knowledgeable on pre-patch Lucas, but post-patch his F-Air, F-Tilt, D-Tilt, Jab 1, N-Air/D-Air cross up, PK Fire and Z-Air are all safe on shield. PK Fire and Z-Air were safe before, but you had to super space them. Spacing is a lot less strict on them now, so that'll be fun to mess around with.

From our tests, Kirby has nothing that's safe aside from pre-patch things like reverse U-Air. F-Air and D-Air cross up are generally better, but they're still not safe. I really don't know how Kirby is going to do anything now because he can't approach at all, everything he has is unsafe and he's going to struggle punishing much more.

I'll play around with it more but honestly I'm contemplating dropping Kirby. He's really not going to be able to function anymore.

*sigh* I guess it's back to Lucario. You know, part of the reason I picked up Kirby was because I love the character. The other part was because I felt bad about winning with Lucario. But these past few months have taught me...

I'm not above being cheap. >: )

 

[Lavani]

I thought that didn't apply when you're hitting a shield?

It does, unless 1.1.1 changed it. I spent several hours looking into this stuff last week:

Here is a gfycat comparing Bowser Jr's dair on whiff, hit, and shield: http://gfycat.com/OrderlySmartIndochinesetiger

All three clips start 15 frames before landing, all three clips have shields first visible on frame 41. Frame syncing works on shield.

More importantly, how does this patch effect Rosalina's general gameplan?

Gaining 3~4 frames of shieldstun on Luma's attacks (which don't hitlag Rosalina) sounds like it has a lot of potential.

Other than that, she'll be sad if Luigi usage falls off.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

It's not so much that Kirby himself wasn't made "better" by this. Because technically, he has been. Rather, he just can't really utilize the new mechanic change to shieldstun as often as other characters can. Note that I say "as often" as opposed to something else, because this is mostly tied to his mobility as being the core issue. Compared to characters that can approach a lot more effectively than him, they will be able to use these changes against him far more often than he can in retaliation. Therefore, in the grand scheme of things, Kirby was made worse by this change. Because even if you have a tool/weapon such as a bad*** battle ax, you might as well be swinging a butter knife if you can't hit anybody with it.

Simply put: Like everybody else, Kirby's hachet has now become a battle ax. But because he can't hit anybody with it, he was quickly done in by everyone else's shiny new weapon, because they could actually hit him with it.


The more mobility/approach options a character has, the more that they are going to get buffed by this change. Additionally, moves with nearly-safe shieldstun inflictions, multi-hitting moves, and projectiles are going to get the most benefit out of this.

Characters without these qualities are going to get left behind. As are characters that are highly reliant on their shields. And unfortunately, Kirby is one such character that encompasses all of these things.

 

[Pazzo.]

Well well... Looks like our little metagame has gotten some changes...

Can't wait to see what this means for Robin, Ness, and Marth.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

It does, unless 1.1.1 changed it. I spent several hours looking into this stuff last week:




Gaining 3~4 frames of shieldstun on Luma's attacks (which don't hitlag Rosalina) sounds like it has a lot of potential.

Other than that, she'll be sad if Luigi usage falls off.

I'll test it more in a bit, then. Sadly, even if it's true, there's no blockstrings and you're forced to shield against a majority of characters or you'll get punished because you can't escape fast enough or retaliate.

Do you have the numbers for Kirby's F-Air/B-Air? It'd be good to re-check those if the numbers are different from what expected.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Tbh, I feel like Aunt Jemima and espicially @SapphSabre777 are overeacting with the nerfs. This kind of thing happens with every character when they are nerfed. The Fox mains were acting like this when he was nerfed too, and guess what? People STILL consider him a great top tier, almost always in top 5-7. Kirby STILL has strengths that are JUST as good, except for up air, that's a tiny bit worse. He still has great comboing game, good recovery, great aierials, and tilts, good smashes, jab, dash attack, pummel, and neutral special, great throws and followups from those throws, good matchups (Villager is even now, but so is Luigi now too so it evens each other up.), good offstage and edgeguarding moves, six jumps, good frame data, and inhale which can give you a great neutral special. His attacks aganist shields are okay now since it can't be as easily punished, but the shield nerf in general for him brings him down two spots in the tier list IMO. and that's IT.

 

[Pazzo.]

Y'all have a frame 1 jumpsquat when it comes to jumping to conclusions.

Quote of the month.

 

[NairWizard]

https://twitter.com/K_Prime04/status/649351429405081601

It begins

2015 is the year of the rat, my friends

@Pikabunz

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

Tbh, I feel like Aunt Jemima and espicially @SapphSabre777 are overeacting with the nerfs. This kind of thing happens with every character when they are nerfed. The Fox mains were acting like this when he was nerfed too, and guess what? People STILL consider him a great top tier, almost always in top 5-7. Kirby STILL has strengths that are JUST as good, except for up air, that's a tiny bit worse. He still has great comboing game, good recovery, great aierials, and tilts, good smashes, jab, dash attack, pummel, and neutral special, great throws and followups from those throws, good matchups (Villager is even now, but so is Luigi now too so it evens each other up.), good offstage and edgeguarding moves, six jumps, good frame data, and inhale which can give you a great neutral special. His attacks aganist shields are okay now since it can't be as easily punished, but the shield nerf in general for him brings him down two spots in the tier list IMO. and that's IT.

Having good moves doesn't make your character good. Kirby's MU spread is worse than before (with link becoming really bad, toon link and Yoshi becoming worse fir example). His only MU made better by this patch is Luigi, everyone else stayed the same/got worse. His combos are also riskier to do because approaching and punishing are both worse.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Tbh, I feel like Aunt Jemima and espicially @SapphSabre777 are overeacting with the nerfs. This kind of thing happens with every character when they are nerfed. The Fox mains were acting like this when he was nerfed too, and guess what? People STILL consider him a great top tier, almost always in top 5-7. Kirby STILL has strengths that are JUST as good, except for up air, that's a tiny bit worse. He still has great comboing game, good recovery, great aierials, and tilts, good smashes, jab, dash attack, pummel, and neutral special, great throws and followups from those throws, good matchups (Villager is even now, but so is Luigi now too so it evens each other up.), good offstage and edgeguarding moves, six jumps, good frame data, and inhale which can give you a great neutral special. His attacks aganist shields are okay now since it can't be as easily punished, but the shield nerf in general for him brings him down two spots in the tier list IMO. and that's IT.

I'm hoping that over time I'll be able to say I was wrong and this is just a major overreaction, but right now I can't see how Kirby improved compared to other characters.

He has bad range and he has bad mobility so they don't help him at all.

iunno. I'll just go do what I do best and spend thirty hours labbing Kirby and then make a super giant post about him.

(im going to lab pp tilts with shield stun increase)

 

[Wintermelon43]

Having good moves doesn't make your character good. Kirby's MU spread is worse than before (with link becoming really bad, toon link and Yoshi becoming worse fir example). His only MU made better by this patch is Luigi, everyone else stayed the same/got worse. His combos are also riskier to do because approaching and punishing are both worse.

Oh yeah, forgot about link, that's probably in the top 5 worst matchups for us now. Probably toon Link too. Yoshi is worse but possibly still 35:65, maybe 30:60 now I'm not sure, will need to test it more. It's defitenly way harder now though. But until I fight a good Yoshi again I have no knowledge

 

[Smog Frog]

i wonder how benefited from the patch. is jab->dtilt->dtilt->shadow ball a true blockstring?

 

[NachoOfCheese]

You do realize that Smash 4 has more shieldstun than Melee now, right?

So the world is ending right?
smh

 

[ILOVESMASH]

i wonder how benefited from the patch. is jab->dtilt->dtilt->shadow ball a true blockstring?

I think that shadow ball camping is a lot better now since the shield nerf basically allows mewtwo to confirm a grab off of small / medium sized shadow balls.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

By the way, when bringing up Smash 4 having more shield stun than Melee, remember that usually moves in Smash 4 do less damage/less range/less disjoint/more lag. Melee characters are a lot faster and stronger than Smash 4, so it'd make sense for this game to have more shield stun.

 

[FullMoon]

https://twitter.com/K_Prime04/status/649351429405081601

It begins

2015 is the year of the rat, my friends

@Pikabunz

Well

As if QA wasn't super good already.

 

[Lavani]

Do you have the numbers for Kirby's F-Air/B-Air? It'd be good to re-check those if the numbers are different from what expected.

Assuming you're landing with the strongest hitbox just before touching the ground (no landing sync):

Fair: -12 prepatch / -8 postpatch
Bair: -12 prepatch / -7 postpatch

Add a few frames of disadvantage depending on how far you have to fall after connecting.

https://twitter.com/K_Prime04/status/649351429405081601

It begins

2015 is the year of the rat, my friends

@Pikabunz

Huh, higher shieldstun on electric attacks?

Running some numbers, it sounds like the x1.5 hitlag from electric attacks probably affects the defender as well now.

 

[UberMadman]

Bowser Jr. was another char who got majorly buffed by the changes to shieldstun. Jr. himself was a character who hated shields in general: using and combatting them. He has one of the worst sets of oos options in the game, with a frame 12 grab and super slow Up-B that leaves him vulnerable, (though his Up-Smash was admittedly decent.) On the other hand, his frame 12 grab also served as a deterrent for being able to deal with the opponents shields as well! None of his moves were safe on shield either, so he suffered. An otherwise good character with decent combos, mixed frame data, surprisingly good mobility, and powerful disjointed kill moves couldn't do **** because all you had to do was press L or R and you won against him.

However, Bowser Jr. gains a ****-ton from weaker shields, as his disjointed fair that autocancels from a shorthop is looking a lot more appealing now. He has an actual landing option because his multihit dair essentially can't be reliably punished anymore, and his Kart, the move which epitomizes the entirety of his combo game, can hit shields and just move straight past them like Sonic's Spindash. Yeah his shield is weaker too, but again, what was he using it for anyway?

Also, there is a little rumor in the Jr. boards that his multi hitting disjointed Forward Smash is completely safe on shield now. I'm taking it with a grain of salt, but ain't that a scary thought?

 

[|RK|]

I'm hoping that over time I'll be able to say I was wrong and this is just a major overreaction, but right now I can't see how Kirby improved compared to other characters.

He has bad range and he has bad mobility so they don't help him at all.

iunno. I'll just go do what I do best and spend thirty hours labbing Kirby and then make a super giant post about him.

(im going to lab pp tilts with shield stun increase)

How do retreating fairs... fare? I'm not a strong player, and I really didn't use dash to shield *that* often. Really only when I had the timing for a perfect shield. Granted, an approach option lost is an approach option lost.

I've been trying to be significantly more patient... so I've been playing crazy campy with Kirby, air and ground. Anyways, original question - are retreating fairs still gravy?

EDIT: Also, Kirby had a 5 frame increase to what? (Re: @Thinkaman )

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

How do retreating fairs... fare? I'm not a strong player, and I really didn't use dash to shield *that* often. Really only when I had the timing for a perfect shield. Granted, an approach option lost is an approach option lost.

I've been trying to be significantly more patient... so I've been playing crazy campy with Kirby, air and ground. Anyways, original question - are retreating fairs still gravy?

EDIT: Also, Kirby had a 5 frame increase to what? (Re: @Thinkaman )

do a f-air and while it is doing the f-air hold back on the control stick and you will move backwards while still using f-air.

 

[FrankOcean11]

By the way, when bringing up Smash 4 having more shield stun than Melee, remember that usually moves in Smash 4 do less damage/less range/less disjoint/more lag. Melee characters are a lot faster and stronger than Smash 4, so it'd make sense for this game to have more shield stun.

Maybe the shield change will alter the pace of the game and lead to the 3-stock change so many people want.

 

[Wintropy]

While I'm happy that Pit remains essentially static (that said, we're still trying to figure out at the Pit board what the new shield mechanics mean for him), I'm not so sure how I feel about Palutena's changes, either directly or by proxy.

Disregarding the fact that two of her customs have had pretty substantial (but probably warranted) nerfs in the form of Explosive Flame's shield-bypassing properties being relinquished and the infinite Lightweight glitch being removed entirely, the new mechanics are going to change her default kit quite significantly. The fact that shield isn't as strong an option as it was means the chances of her getting free shield-grabs have diminished, thereby making it more difficult to make use of what was otherwise a great option for her (d-throw confirming into most of her best combos and kill moves); on the other hand, better shield safety means her f-air is an ever safer poke, her b-air is significantly less risky and she may get good use out of her smashes and tilts without having to worry about getting punished for the effort.

I don't think it's going to change her in any meaningful way, and she certainly won't shift from where she currently is. Even so, it's interesting as a Palutena main to see her finally getting some distinct benefits from the new mechanics.

 

[|RK|]

do a f-air and while it is doing the f-air hold back on the control stick and you will move backwards while still using f-air.

I know how to do it, but thank you. I'm wondering about their safety post-patch. About the same, or?

 

[Radical Larry]

So is anyone motivated to now perfect/power shield opponents even more?
The whole shield topic isn't really affecting me all that much due to the fact that it's not even bothering me competitively. I don't really see much of a difference honestly, and I can just powershield attacks all day if I need to (I took time to train my powershielding and OoS options).

 

[Pazzo.]

Personally, I'm excited.

This is a huge change, I get it, but with how many characters got invalidated by shield pre-patch, this can only benefit more characters in the long run.

And that's why I'm excited.

 

[Man Li Gi]

L LightLV
Lemme compare the offensive and defensive characters to animals.

All traditional archetypes are fighting each other for food and the prize food is meat.

Rushdowns: carnivores as they are strong omnipresent beings that strike fear. Often times they have enough speed and savagery to overwhelm it prey.

Grapplers/mixup/zoners: omnivores ad they have the tools to heat it up and go toe to toe with the rushdowns if they are smart about it. Must be more cautious and wary to ward off the rush downs in hopes to win.

Bait and Punish: herbivores ad they much choose every opportunity very carefully as 1 mistake is needed for you to mess up. Before you say herbivores don't eat meat, yes they do....for real, it's just they lack what the carnivores have for consistent meat meals. Deer eat dead (and live) birds if they need to or if all the stars align properly. The same can said about their offensive game (become offensive if the stars in the universe align).

 

[Sir Tundra]

So I hear that shield stun in smash 4 is now higher then melee's.

This really put's a big smile on my face

Not to sound arrogant but this is a change that I've been waiting for a long long time.

My biggest gripe with smash 4 besides how great most recovery's are in this game, was how strong shield's were due to shields being non existent.

But with smash 4 having shield stun we have actual block strings.

And best of all FRAME TRAPS!!!! *drools*

Almost forgot...

Luigi main's you'll be find. Luigi just received the diddy treatment. He still can rack up alot of damage, He just has to work for his kills now. Besides if diddy mains can get through this then so can you guys

as of Kirby mains.. well

R.I.P Kirby
(1992-2015)
you were only really good in 64 but it was all downhill afterwards.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

I know how to do it, but thank you. I'm wondering about their safety post-patch. About the same, or?

safer, since this actually helped kirbny's retreating f-air but thats like it lmao

 

[Antonykun]

So I hear that shield stun in smash 4 is now higher then melee's.

This really put's a big smile on my face

Not to sound arrogant but this is a change that I've been waiting for a long long time.

My biggest gripe with smash 4 besides how great most recovery's are in this game, was how strong shield's were due to shields being non existent.

But with smash 4 having shield stun we have actual block strings.

And best of all FRAME TRAPS!!!! *drools*

Almost forgot...

Luigi main's you'll be find. Luigi just received the diddy treatment. He still can rack up alot of damage, He just has to work for his kills now. Besides if diddy mains can get through this then so can you guys

as of Kirby mains.. well

R.I.P Kirby
(1992-2015)
you were only really good in 64 but it was all downhill afterwards.

In Luigi main's defense Luigi doesn't have good mobility nor bananas

 

[KirbySquad101]

So I hear that shield stun in smash 4 is now higher then melee's.

This really put's a big smile on my face

Not to sound arrogant but this is a change that I've been waiting for a long long time.

My biggest gripe with smash 4 besides how great most recovery's are in this game, was how strong shield's were due to shields being non existent.

But with smash 4 having shield stun we have actual block strings.

And best of all FRAME TRAPS!!!! *drools*

Almost forgot...

Luigi main's you'll be find. Luigi just received the diddy treatment. He still can rack up alot of damage, He just has to work for his kills now. Besides if diddy mains can get through this then so can you guys

as of Kirby mains.. well

R.I.P Kirby
(1992-2015)
you were only really good in 64 but it was all downhill afterwards.

Forget 64, I just want Brawl Kirby back at this point. D:

But in seriousness, though, is his N-Air still punishable even after the shield nerf? It has ten frames of endlag, so I was wondering.

His f-tilt and d-tilt are also pretty good moves to throw out, but... that's all I can think of.

 

[LightLV]

Y'all have a frame 1 jumpsquat when it comes to jumping to conclusions.

this post is great