Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[HeavyLobster]

Alright, tested a lot with Spirst.

The main two things I have is that Lucas is great and Kirby sucks.

I'm not too knowledgeable on pre-patch Lucas, but post-patch his F-Air, F-Tilt, D-Tilt, Jab 1, N-Air/D-Air cross up, PK Fire and Z-Air are all safe on shield. PK Fire and Z-Air were safe before, but you had to super space them. Spacing is a lot less strict on them now, so that'll be fun to mess around with.

From our tests, Kirby has nothing that's safe aside from pre-patch things like reverse U-Air. F-Air and D-Air cross up are generally better, but they're still not safe. I really don't know how Kirby is going to do anything now because he can't approach at all, everything he has is unsafe and he's going to struggle punishing much more.

I'll play around with it more but honestly I'm contemplating dropping Kirby. He's really not going to be able to function anymore.

So we really are just going back to Melee. Next patch Fox is getting Melee Shine, Falco's getting Melee lasers, and Marth's getting Melee range. Lovely.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Alright, tested a lot with Spirst.

The main two things I have is that Lucas is great and Kirby sucks.

I'm not too knowledgeable on pre-patch Lucas, but post-patch his F-Air, F-Tilt, D-Tilt, Jab 1, N-Air/D-Air cross up, PK Fire and Z-Air are all safe on shield. PK Fire and Z-Air were safe before, but you had to super space them. Spacing is a lot less strict on them now, so that'll be fun to mess around with.

From our tests, Kirby has nothing that's safe aside from pre-patch things like reverse U-Air. F-Air and D-Air cross up are generally better, but they're still not safe. I really don't know how Kirby is going to do anything now because he can't approach at all, everything he has is unsafe and he's going to struggle punishing much more.

I'll play around with it more but honestly I'm contemplating dropping Kirby. He's really not going to be able to function anymore.

Poor Kirby, from going up in the ranks to instantly becoming one of the worst, if not, THE worst character in the game. Seriously, every character in the game has either one of these: power, range, speed, over Kirby, the three things that this patch has come into light about importance through the shieldstun changes. Characters with more power like Ganon not only are safer on Kirby, but KO him faster. Characters like Link outrange Kirby and pretty much forces him to eat it all up. Characters like Pikachu now get to outspeed and take advantage out of Kirby using mobility and such. Every character in the game outdoes him in at least one thing, and that's all they need to win.

Everything Kirby has is still unsafe and unaddressed, and they decided to perform this change to further emphasize that if you don't have the three things above, you are doomed. To be frank, this makes me depressed considering all the work done, to the point where I just might drop Smash 4. I'm just in utter shock at how much Kirby sucks (and not literally) now.

 

[Shouxiao]

New meta. Well well things have just got a lot more interesting.

 

[Smog Frog]

did really win that big when compared to ?

 

[LightLV]

Shoehorning an out right offensive, rushdown heavy mechanic like this could further invalidate defensive characters or simply force characters to play more offensively.....even if they are lacking the move kit to do so. Then again this is speculation, but I have a strong feeling this is what is going to happen.

Not joking when I ask this, but what do you define as a "defensive character" in this game?

I ask because this usually just describes a character who lacked the tools to BE offensive, and thus could only rely on bait and punish. And these are almost always just bad characters.

From our tests, Kirby has nothing that's safe aside from pre-patch things like reverse U-Air. F-Air and D-Air cross up are generally better, but they're still not safe. I really don't know how Kirby is going to do anything now because he can't approach at all, everything he has is unsafe and he's going to struggle punishing much more.

I'll play around with it more but honestly I'm contemplating dropping Kirby. He's really not going to be able to function anymore.

I wouldn't expect any of those moves to be safe on shield anyway, kirby has multiple jumps.

From what i hear, his low altitude Down-B is now a guaranteed break on block. Have you tried his Dair yet? Any of his smashes? Considering how kirby was before i have a hard time swallowing this.

 

[LightLV]

Oops, doublepost, cant delete.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

did really win that big when compared to ?

I think at the end of the day almost all characters benefit in some way. Between those who benefit from increased shield pressure [Sheik, Fox, Pikachu, Peach, ...], those who benefit from stronger projectile pressure [DHD, Mega Man, Pac-Man, Villager, ...] and those who benefit from having a huge increase of stun on a lot of their moves in general [Ike, Ganon, Ryu] there aren't many characters left who straight up do not benefit from increased shield stun in any way.

I personally don't think that it will make many characters straight-up better or worse - not the good ones anyway. It will mainly affect the way the game is played but it's a global change so I'd expect few dramatic, character-specific changes.

 

[TDK]

Wow... Kirby took such a hit it's not even funny.

 

[Nobie]

Doesn't Kirby have some of the best landing lag data anyway? What does not being as good at stunning shields do to that?

 

[TDK]

Doesn't Kirby have some of the best landing lag data anyway? What does not being as good at stunning shields do to that?

Every character in the game outdoes him in at least one thing, and that's all they need to win.

 

[SapphSabre777]

Doesn't Kirby have some of the best landing lag data anyway? What does not being as good at stunning shields do to that?

It doesn't mean anything, really. The shieldstun tweak severely nerfed his approach options to the point where they are non-existant, as well as through this giving more priority to characters with power, range (with or without projectiles), and speed. Kirby has none of these, so he has no niche. I can't think of a character worse than Kirby right now.

 

[DblCrest]

Well that's depressing, wonder where Kirby will go from here. Still let's see how it goes.

On the plus side it's pretty sweet that more customs are being somewhat balanced. Eventually the jank customs that people seem afraid of will likely get patched too.

 

[LightLV]

I don't recall anyone ever complaining about Kirby to this degree before the patch, so the fact that all his data has been improved and people are suddenly complaining about his frame data is...well, interesting.

His attacks and hitboxes were good when taken at face value, and all are safer now.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Not joking when I ask this, but what do you define as a "defensive character" in this game?

I ask because this usually just describes a character who lacked the tools to BE offensive, and thus could only rely on bait and punish. And these are almost always just bad characters.

The problem is that bad characters used to not be that bad, but now they actually are really bad. Shield should be a good tool that requires thought to beat. Now it just loses, and instead of a rock-paper-scissors game we've got a paper game. No reason not to just pick a fast character with low lag moves and just throw said moves around so your opponent can't do anything.

 

[TDK]

It doesn't mean anything, really. The shieldstun tweak severely nerfed his approach options to the point where they are non-existant, as well as through this giving more priority to characters with power, range (with or without projectiles), and speed. Kirby has none of these, so he has no niche. I can't think of a character worse than Kirby right now.

So, would you say Kirby is bottom 3?

 

[Zelder]

So, would you say Kirby is bottom 3?

God I love this thread.

 

[TDK]

God I love this thread.

I'm not sure how to take that.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I'm not sure about bottom 3, but he's potentially bottom 5 now.

Kirby's two biggest flaws pre-patch:
- Can't deal with shields
- Can't approach outside of his own shield

Kirby's two biggest flaws post-patch:
- Can't deal with shields
- Can't approach

Kirby can't deal with heavies. He can't deal with campers. He can't deal with faster characters.

This isn't overreaction or anything, he's just bad now. His biggest weakness was accentuated and he got nothing to make up for it. We can't use shields, yet people can use shields against us. If we don't shield, we die at 50%. If we do shield, we get pushed to the ledge and automatically lose footsies.

EDIT: By the way, before somebody says that a character like King Dedede is worse than Kirby or something of that sort, I'm pretty certain Kirby has more losing MUs. I wouldn't be afraid to say we have a lot more Yoshi MUs, either. How are we supposed to deal with top tiers like Sheik now that we can't touch them? Then we already have our losing low-tier MUs become worse. Then we watch as our previously winning MUs become absolute ****.

#ripkillinguthrow

 

[Meru.]

But I don't see how it allows her to even up matchups like Villager or Fox -...

Fox??? Fox is not even close to a losing match-up for Peach.

 

[LightLV]

The problem is that bad characters used to not be that bad, but now they actually are really bad. Shield should be a good tool that requires thought to beat. Now it just loses, and instead of a rock-paper-scissors game we've got a paper game. No reason not to just pick a fast character with low lag moves and just throw said moves around so your opponent can't do anything.

Rolls are still ********-tier good and sidestepping still exists and perfect shielding still exists, not seeing how the best defense in the series is any less great.

Defense only got inadvertently nerfed, offense was what got buffed.

The game before was 100% in favor of the defender while providing massive reward for holding the shield button, with smash 4 rolls being the best escape option in the series. This pretty much devolved the game into speedy, low lag fadeaway aerials and grab pressure. Now, you still have the silly escape option thats just as hard to punish, except getting hit with the wrong move potentially puts you in a bad position. It should have ALWAYS been this way. It takes moves that used to be "READ ONLY" and gives them more than one function.


So now, instead of blocking a move and at the VERY LEAST having to decide how you want to punish them for it, before you even get hit, you need to decide if it's smart to block the move or not. It shifts some of the power to the attacker.

No matter how much the current speedies benefit from this, the previous have-nots are going to benefit the most, because it was an option they never even had.

 

[wedl!!]

M Meru. , I know you're more informed about Peach than I am, but can you elaborate on that?

 

[SapphSabre777]

So, would you say Kirby is bottom 3?

Absolutely has a chance to be that, and this is coming from a huge Kirby main.

Has no projectiles and very little range compared to other users, meaning characters that just even have a projectile like Luigi give him trouble from the get-go.

Has no safe way of approaching at all now thanks to his garbage momentum, and has little to no reward when compared to stronger characters. Ganondorf won a bit this patch, because even though he doesn't have a projectile and has bad speed as well, his damage and power allow him to muscle through shields, giving him more reward off of them. Kirby doesn't have that whatsoever and has to play unsafe completely now, thanks to these two things.

Combine these three, and Kirby has no niche and is outclassed by any character that even so much as outclasses him with having range/projectiles, more speed, or more power alone. Whatever light of hope Kirby had in 1.1.0 has been swallowed into the deepest darkest abyss. At least Dr. Mario has a projectile to cover up his poor speed, at least Ganondorf has the power to compensate for his other poor attributes, and at least Lucina, even being outclassed by Marth, has the range to do work with this. It is THAT bad.

 

[Radical Larry]

Could someone confirm that Jab > Jab > Side B with Jigs is a real, inescapable thing? I don't have a (competent) human parter to test with.

It's not really escapable, but the only thing your opponent can really do is try blocking you. Jiggs has very weak knockback on her jabs, and they can come out very quick, so trapping your opponent to follow up for Side B is a good idea, since it's either them block or them trying to retaliate. Retaliation fails almost all the time since Jiggs' Pound would be coming out before they'd be able to attack her (save Little Mac and ZSS). But there aren't any followups from the grounded Pound, but the aerial can set up for a good N-Air at various low damages, so you should try that.

And guys, after a few test runs with shields, I don't notice a huge and significant difference on shieldstun. Sure, there's +3 frames or more depending on attack, but it doesn't affect me at all, especially playing as Ganondorf. It doesn't affect me for one good reason; I can perfect shield opponents like nobody's business and react quick with a grab. So shielding isn't necessarily a problem with me, but it felt SO good to deal 30% damage off of D-Throw > N-Air. That is some sick power!

 

[LightLV]

Absolutely has a chance to be that, and this is coming from a huge Kirby main.

Has no projectiles and very little range compared to other users, meaning characters that just even have a projectile like Luigi give him trouble from the get-go.

Has no safe way of approaching at all now thanks to his garbage momentum, and has little to no reward when compared to stronger characters. Ganondorf won a bit this patch, because even though he doesn't have a projectile and has bad speed as well, his damage and power allow him to muscle through shields, giving him more reward off of them. Kirby doesn't have that whatsoever and has to play unsafe completely now, thanks to these two things.

Combine these three, and Kirby has no niche and is outclassed by any character that even so much as outclasses him with having range/projectiles, more speed, or more power alone. Whatever light of hope Kirby had in 1.1.0 has been swallowed into the deepest darkest abyss. At least Dr. Mario has a projectile to cover up his poor speed, at least Ganondorf has the power to compensate for his other poor attributes, and at least Lucina, even being outclassed by Marth, has the range to do work with this. It is THAT bad.

what is even happening right now

how on earth did all this come about from a shieldstun buff?

Did all of Kirby's gameplay hinge on blocking and punishing? If thats the case, he sucked before the patch too lol

Dair > Uptilt was damn near a block string before the patch, i know for a fact Kirby can still do this better and i havent even touched the game today.

 

[SapphSabre777]

what is even happening right now

how on earth did all this come about from a shieldstun buff?

Did all of Kirby's gameplay hinge on blocking and punishing?

Dair > Uptilt was damn near a block string before the patch, i know for a fact Kirby can still do this better and i havent even touched the game yoday.

Because Kirby's approach was bad from the get-go. Kirby mains had to rely on Dash -> Shield to even so much as approach anything. With that taken away, Kirby gets punished for doing that. Heck, he even loses other approaching options, such as RAR U-Air, as well as losing punish options, such as SH B-Air. This patch took everything good from him and took it away AND severely worsened his flaws.

 

[bc1910]

Kirby's getting pushed to the ledge in shield? This isn't 64.

Shieldstun has gone from almost-nonexistent to very low. We have no official confirmation that it's now higher than Melee and damage (hence shieldstun frames) on individual moves is significantly lower in Sm4sh anyway. The fact that we're only seeing broken-tier true blockstrings from VERY specialised multi-hit moves (Aura Sphere, Rosa + Luma jab by the ledge) is a testament to how safe shielding still is.

Stuff is safer on block, and there will be fewer true punishes, but you will still be able to escape 99.9% of attempted blockstrings very, very easily. Don't get me wrong, this is a massive change, but we are not about to see shield become obsolete and will absolutely not be getting block pressured to the ledge any time soon.

I'm also struggling to see how Kirby's Dair isn't significantly better now.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Anddddddd I was gonna ask what everyone was thinking of Kirby right now, where he would go ona tier liat. Since earlier today, people were saying He's better, and now he's the worst character?

So how much worse is this gonna make him now?

 

[LightLV]

Kirby's getting pushed to the ledge in shield? This isn't 64.

Shieldstun has gone from almost-nonexistent to very low. We have no official confirmation that it's now higher than Melee and damage (hence shieldstun frames) on individual moves is significantly lower in Sm4sh anyway. The fact that we're only seeing broken-tier true blockstrings from VERY specialised multi-hit moves (Aura Sphere, Rosa + Luma jab by the ledge) is a testament to how safe shielding still is.

Stuff is safer on block, and there will be fewer true punishes, but you will still be able to escape 99.9% of attempted blockstrings very, very easily. Don't get me wrong, this is a massive change, but we are not about to see shield become obsolete and will absolutely not be getting block pressured to the ledge any time soon.

I'm also struggling to see how Kirby's Dair isn't significantly better now.

Uh, nah, the formula says it all. it actually is higher than Melee's now.

However, the reasons im hearing people doom kirby for are pretty silly. Aside from perfect shield still existing, i'm having a hard time understanding how RUN UP BLOCK being nerfed is supposedly a deathblow to the character when he has like 5 jumps, and now GUARANTEED shieldbreak move, safer everything and the type of Dair that's been the staple of shieldbreak combos all day.

tons of characters did RUNUP BLOCK better than Kirby, and its a stupid strat to base a character on because you can just get grabbed out of it anyway.


On the other hand kirby has great tilts, frame data and hitboxes for his size. This sounds an awful lot like kneejerk responses to not having a shieldbreak combo....which again im doubting that's even accurate from what ive seen today.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Kirby's D-Air landing hit does 2%. It's still incredibly unsafe, only cross-up D-Air is good but even then, that's still punishable by turnaround jabs. He can't blockstring anything out of it.

By the way, the ledge thing was just exaggeration for effect. Not to be taken literally, although I guess in this situation it seems like that.

The main problem for those who don't get it is that Kirby can't use shields, while opponents can. Kirby already struggled A LOT to punish simple moves due to his run and air speed, now it's made worse. Obviously Kirby can use shield, but it's severely worse and risks much more.

just gimme upper cutter though and it's all good, best OoS option in the game makes Kirby op

 

[ぱみゅ]

Kirby's D-Air landing hit does 2%. It's still incredibly unsafe, only cross-up D-Air is good but even then, that's still punishable by turnaround jabs. He can't blockstring anything out of it.

I thought frame advantage was hugely increased.

 

[Lavani]

To put numbers to it, Kirby's dair landing went from like, -12 on shield to -8, assuming the new formula is accurate.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

Uh, nah, the formula says it all. it actually is higher than Melee's now.

However, the reasons im hearing people doom kirby for are pretty silly. Aside from perfect shield still existing, i'm having a hard time understanding how RUN UP BLOCK being nerfed is supposedly a deathblow to the character when he has like 5 jumps, and now GUARANTEED shieldbreak move, safer everything and the type of Dair that's been the staple of shieldbreak combos all day.

tons of characters did RUNUP BLOCK better than Kirby, and its a stupid strat to base a character on because you can just get grabbed out of it anyway.


On the other hand kirby has great tilts, frame data and hitboxes for his size. This sounds an awful lot like kneejerk responses to not having a shieldbreak combo....which again im doubting that's even accurate from what ive seen today.

I'm confused on what you're saying, though.

Stone is the same as before, you just can't shield in between the hits. It doesn't break shields, what? It gets it near, but it won't break a full shield and you get punished for it. I don't understand how his multiple jumps help his approaching when his air speed and fall speed are terrible with f9+ start-up on everything besides B-Air. He can't really bait well.

I thought frame advantage was hugely increased.

On hit or on block? On block it's still super punishable and on hit it wasn't changed at all.

 

[bc1910]

To put numbers to it, Kirby's dair landing went from like, -11 on shield to -7, assuming the new formula is accurate.

Aunt Jemima If this is correct it would mean that Dair went from being punishable by most grabs and (turnaround) jabs to only being punishable by OoS options with 6 frames of startup or less. Dair is hardly super punishable, and crossup Dair should be unpunishable by anything bar certain turnaround Up Bs now.

 

[NegaNixx]

You all forget Kirby's still top tier when he crouches.

Seriously though. That sucks. He got a buff/everyone got a nerf and that's great in a vacuum but everyone else got the same buff/he got a nerf and he's the least effective at using it.

I really liked Kirby in this game too.

 

[Aunt Jemima]

I'm pretty sure that's talking about on shield drop, not instant OoS options. D-Air's last hit does 2% and the move has like 17 frames of landing lag.

 

[NachoOfCheese]

Anddddddd I was gonna ask what everyone was thinking of Kirby right now, where he would go ona tier liat. Since earlier today, people were saying He's better, and now he's the worst character?

So how much worse is this gonna make him now?

There is a grand total of NO TOP LEVEL PLAY supporting any of the baseless claims on this thread. I wouldn't worry yet.

 

[bc1910]

I'm pretty sure that's talking about on shield drop, not instant OoS options. D-Air's last hit does 2% and the move has like 17 frames of landing lag.

Ah in that case I'd be wrong. Fighting Kirby it feels like the move really isn't all that punishable (could be some frame cancel-esque thing, like with Bowser Jr's Dair) but it's probably just me.

 

[Mazdamaxsti]

what is even happening right now

how on earth did all this come about from a shieldstun buff?

Did all of Kirby's gameplay hinge on blocking and punishing? If thats the case, he sucked before the patch too lol

Dair > Uptilt was damn near a block string before the patch, i know for a fact Kirby can still do this better and i havent even touched the game today.

Kirby was already unsafe on shields, so the shield nerf didn't help him at all since his moves are still unsafe. D-air could and can still be shield grabbed, and we can't shield against so many characters. D-air is just unsafe in general, and it still is.

 

[Dinoman96]

Hey guys, another thing regarding Palutena's customs: Explosive Flame seemingly no longer knocks people out of their shield on the last hit. Played it against someone else recently. People can now completely block it.

 

[LightLV]

I'm confused on what you're saying, though.

Stone is the same as before, you just can't shield in between the hits. It doesn't break shields, what? It gets it near, but it won't break a full shield and you get punished for it. I don't understand how his multiple jumps help his approaching when his air speed and fall speed are terrible with f9+ start-up on everything besides B-Air. He can't really bait well.

my point is, nothing Kirby had is worse than before this patch. So whatever it is you're complaining that he doesn't have, isn't something he was missing before this patch, and people are complaining as if he never had anything at all.

If KIRBY, with his frame data, range and hitboxes, is suddenly garbagetier, then i can think of alot of other characters who should be way worse off than him, if the thing you guys are saying is killing him is just...the ability to shield and punish?

No, i dont think kirby was ever that bad, bros.