Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[TTTTTsd]

I'm uhhhhh

I'm not sure this was a good universal change for the game or not...

Honestly I'm almost 80% positive it's not. We're about to enter a crazy, crazy metagame that is going to be wild and inconsistent and probably ****ing crazy.

And we'll have to wait for 1.1.2 to fix all of it LOL. In the meantime we pray.

 

[Mario766]

Meta Knight's forward smash FAF is frame 42, yet it is nearly impossible to punish. You need to consider the shield stun and shield push.

Meta Knight's F-Smash also does a lot more damage, which means shield stun and shield push than Robin's fire jab at 5 damage, the same as Ike's jab 3

 

[Ghostbone]

Ryu's going to be super dumb this patch tbh, new best character? Calling it now.
Like for some perspective, you can't drop shield between the two hits of his overhead anymore.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Ryu's going to be super dumb this patch tbh, new best character? Calling it now.
Like for some perspective, you can't drop shield between the two hits of his overhead anymore.

IDK but he's definitely gonna move up now. I joked about SF2 blockstrings in Smash but I didn't think it'd actually happen

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Ryu's going to be super dumb this patch tbh, new best character? Calling it now.
Like for some perspective, you can't drop shield between the two hits of his overhead anymore.

.....

Welp, everybody get your pocket Ryus ready, its SFIV:SSB4 Edition time

 

[Man Li Gi]

I posted this a while back predicting something like this happening. I don't think peeps really understand the implications of what just happened.

"Why would people want changes across the entire board of characters without considering the entire cast first? I swear I see people saying "we need more shield stun" or "l canceling needs to come back" or "the new AD mechanics are good/great". Do they understand the magnitude or implications of these supposed "balancing" features? It only helps the characters with already good framedata/good neutral/strong stage presence or strong stage control/covers landings.

In other words, it exacerbates weaknesses in many characters far more than actually help them. I guess "gotta go fast, gotta go fast, gotta go faster, faster, faster, faster, faster" is more viewer friendly, but people who don't play fast characters are suffering.

The first time heavies finally got something that helped them out, people were saying "ugh ur too slow". Then I want to ask them if would want Ganon or KD3 to coming at you with ZSS'S speed? If the answer is no, then don't get mad.

I just feel if people want to shoehorn an offensive tactic, fine. Just be as opened to shoehorn an equally influential defensive aspect because most of us agree that offensive options help out offensive based characters.

For instance, if l canceling was in the game, it could very well be the destruction of the game. Sure Ganon's fair (taking Melee l canceling system) would make his fair landing lag from 23 frames to 12 frames. Awesome right? I think so too. But you who else would think so? . Imagine 5 frames of landing lag on fair and that's how the meta will progress. Sure everybody will moving fast.........into the blast zones.

Again, system wide decisions like this truly must take ALL characters into account."

 

[TTTTTsd]

Whyyyy did this happen looll. I was so satisfied with how this game was going and now we're playing crazy Smash again.

Are there experienced players who think this is a good change? I haven't seen any say so.

 

[outfoxd]

Is this making it possible for projectile characters to perform marvel style lockdowns?

Cause I'm down with that, if they just keep refusing to give me killing power.

 

[Asdioh]

I agree, anytime I read "game needs more shieldstun" I realized people didn't know what they were talking about. But hey, the changes just happened, we don't know to what extend things changed yet!
I can say that I think it's silly that Nintendo refuses to touch base character statistics (buff Kirby's airspeed please,) but they're willing to make global changes that might break the whole game? lol.
But hey, if Kirby's moves are safe on shield now, like Dair and stuff, good for him I guess?
edit: judging by a few seconds of testing by myself in training mode, it doesn't seem safe, so that's cool it's not like I want my character to be good or anything nbd

 

[DanGR]

Kirby seems to be one of the big losers this patch. Run up->shield got neutered. How to get in on ranged characters now?

 

[CommanderRin]

I'm actually excited to see how much this might change the game. Lots of interesting opinions going around, I don't think this is bad, just different.

I guess we'll have a clearer view on things in about a weeks time.

 

[Evello]

Luigi always could do down throw to up smash. Second, up smash as a ko move? That's a standard move for every other character. Luigi had great pros and equally bad cons but now his good points are mostly gone and his weaknesses are too overwhelming. Instead of complaining about Luigi did anyone think " This character isn't broken, this luigi main is just really skillful"

Standard as in that's the attack many characters have to rely on for kills? Yes. Luigi can now join the club. Luigi having early, easy kill options on top of insane combo ability and a good neutral with fireballs was oppressive to a LOT of characters. Sheik was a big thorn in Luigi's side, but otherwise he only had a few cons that impacted the tippity top of pro play. Not saying he was so broken that he needed a straight nerf, but he needed serious adjusting. This patch probably didn't give Luigi enough buffs to compensate for the nerfs, but I highly doubt he's dropping to the bottom of the cast off of a dthrow nerf alone. Some of his ridiculous combos are gone, but he can still combo well, he is still a relatively fast character with a projectile, and he still has kill options.

Obviously, a player needs to be at least good to succeed with literally any character. But Luigi was comparatively very easy at the mid-to-high level of competitive play prior to this patch, as evidenced by his giant win record.

 

[Mario766]

People are already overhyping this, like everything every patch.

 

[PK Gaming]

Tons of people are jumping to conclusions

Wait and see what happens before decrying these changes

 

[LightLV]

Shield stun global change

(To quote myself in the patch notes thread)

This might explain why strong shield breakers were nerfed. Increased shield stun means you're forced to hold shield for longer, which against strong shield breakers is maybe a tad too strong; shieldbreaker --> 3 HP left on my shield --> have to hold it b/c shield stun --> broken shield. So the shield breakers were nerfed in case the shield stun change made them a bit too easy to break shields with.

This also explains the Lucario video where Falco couldn't drop his shield against Lucario's aura sphere charging hitbox, because it hit him too frequently meaning he was in constant shield stun. Or something like that.

This is the best patch. Dunno what the consequences are but it's definitely in a good direction.

Bowser, Gannon, Ike, and everyone with strong aerials just got buffed. If these updated formulas are right, we're talking nearly double the lag on shield on some moves.

This also helps characters like Falco, Zelda and Samus with projectile pressure...though probably marginally. On the ground, this is most certainly a buff to all heavy hitters. Little Mac is now probably even more scary on the ground.

 

[Firefoxx]

This change should mean that Falcons ff u-air is now safe on shield at all ranges (and significantly so at some ranges). While ff nair and bair being safe or safer on shield is obviously a big deal, ff u-air is the best/easiest-to-link knee setup.

If this is all works how the theory suggests it should, his short-hop mixups just got even more deadly. So that's fun.

 

[FullMoon]

I'm having some real mixed feelings about this patch right now. I'm gonna wait and see what happens but I'm a little anxious.

 

[Zelder]

"I think it's fair to say that this game is fundamentally changed now."

- People who have played literally 0 high caliber matches since the patch dropped less than 24 hours ago

 

[LightLV]

"I think it's fair to say that this game is fundamentally changed now."

- People who have played literally 0 high caliber matches since the patch dropped less than 24 hours ago

This is a fundamental change, like literally. The game just basically gained Melee-levels of shieldstun overnight, and that is not an exaggeration, if the proposed changes are accurate.

 

[HeavyLobster]

This is the best patch. Dunno what the consequences are but it's definitely in a good direction.

Bowser, Gannon, Ike, and everyone with strong aerials just got buffed. If these updated formulas are right, we're talking nearly double the lag on shield on some moves.

This also helps characters like Falco, Zelda and Samus with projectile pressure...though probably marginally. On the ground, this is most certainly a buff to all heavy hitters. Little Mac is now probably even more scary on the ground.

Mac could very easily be dumb now. Sheik is the big winner here because all of her lagless moves now have shieldstun too and she almost never even needs to shield. Bowser and Ganon are forced to shield a lot and so they suffer even if they're safer too. Zero Suit and Fox are also winners with their weakness to shield being less relevant. Top tiers force you to shield a lot and aren't as easily forced into shield due to superior mobility.

 

[BSP]

Luigi has 'redistribution'.

Lol.

D-throw still has its crazy combos (Lol D-throw U-smash regrab on Sheik), but we lose basically ALL of our kill setups. Having killing setups were one of our biggest strength. We all have seen how killing is a hidrance to Mario in such amount Ally considered dropping him. Now imagine a character with better combos and more strength, but MUCH slower.
EDIT: And cool. We lose to LM, Pac-Man, and ZSS even harder. I usually not the one to complain about nerfs but this is ridiculous.

I said the same thing to my buddy who mains Luigi once I read the dthrow changes. Luigi is going to have the same KO problems as Mario, except he's MUCH slower. How is Luigi going to KO any remotely mobile character now? Shield now puts you in a 50/50 at worst, and Luigi is so freaking slow. I think Pac-Man might 70:30 him now. He couldn't catch him to begin with, and now Pac-Man can shield if he's afraid of dying. Add in hydrant to cover landings and...yeah that's a tough one if Pac-Man runs away.

I'm seeing comments on a universal shield stun increase? I'm going to have to look into that. Maybe Pac-Man can have blockstrings into his grab now.

 

[MachoCheeze]

I'm seeing comments on a universal shield stun increase? I'm going to have to look into that. Maybe Pac-Man can have blockstrings into his grab now.

Do you think this will maybe make the galaxian + hydrant + side b shield break set up more potent? Higher shield stun seems like a huge buff to Galaxian.

 

[BSP]

Do you think this will maybe make the galaxian + hydrant + side b shield break set up more potent? Higher shield stun seems like a huge buff to Galaxian.

If shield stun is really near melee levels now as L LightLV said, Pac-Man might have quite a few scary shield break setups / blockstrings in general. We'll have to look into it.

 

[Routa]

Yup Luigi is pretty much useless now...

 

[Green L]

Why is it OK for Dk to have an easybake ding dong KO at 70% or ZSS down throw up air to up b KO at 50% Luigi had multiple weaknesses and bad matchup and didn't deserve to be nerfed because players refuse to learn the matchup

 

[Antonykun]

oh yeah pre patch swordfighter's d-tilt was already safe on shield if spaced properly i wonder how this patch affects him.

Why is it OK for Dk to have an easybake ding dong KO at 70% or ZSS down throw up air to up b KO at 50% Luigi had multiple weaknesses and bad matchup and didn't deserve to be nerfed because players refuse to learn the matchup

are you kidding me no seriously.

I genuinely think you don't understand how ridiculous Luigi's throw game is if you think DK or ZSS can hold a candle to it

 

[warionumbah2]

Why is it OK for Dk to have an easybake ding dong KO at 70% or ZSS down throw up air to up b KO at 50% Luigi had multiple weaknesses and bad matchup and didn't deserve to be nerfed because players refuse to learn the matchup

How many times are gonna do this?

 

[Nabbitnator]

Why is it OK for Dk to have an easybake ding dong KO at 70% or ZSS down throw up air to up b KO at 50% Luigi had multiple weaknesses and bad matchup and didn't deserve to be nerfed because players refuse to learn the matchup

dthrow up air to up b is DI able. A lot of people can fall out it.

 

[MachoCheeze]

Why is it OK for Dk to have an easybake ding dong KO at 70% or ZSS down throw up air to up b KO at 50% Luigi had multiple weaknesses and bad matchup and didn't deserve to be nerfed because players refuse to learn the matchup

Because DK doesn't have a neutral-invalidating projectile.

 

[LightLV]

this is probably a tier-list-rearranging-level change.

Kirby seems to be one of the big losers this patch. Run up->shield got neutered. How to get in on ranged characters now?

Considering Yoshi's Dair is now literally unescapable and likely to break your shield if you don't Pshield, I think Kirby will probably be okay.

 

[Ulevo]

It is unfortunate that the biggest reaper of rewards this patch is ultimately Sheik.

 

[Macedonian]

hey guys so far i am unclear on this new shield mechanic. are power shields affected at all, or does the increase in time in shield only for normal shields?

 

[LightLV]

It is unfortunate that the biggest reaper of rewards this patch is ultimately Sheik.

This is probably true, but not to any serious degree. Sheik was already safe on block, at the very least she got even more safe. But now others may have been boosted to join her ranks.

What i'm hoping is, this patch has taken what made the current S-tiers so unbearable and given some of that to the rest of the cast.

 

[FullMoon]

Greninja's N-Air used to be -8 on shield, with this shieldstun increase I wonder how safe it is now.

 

[Ulevo]

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yup Luigi is pretty much useless now...

Amazing DI there.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Luigi's been ragged on since the patch hooplah started, but he would benefit tremendously from the new shieldstun, right? Silly fast moves with tremendous damage output = Luigi's gonna maul on your shield until something breaks through and then press the advantage.

 

[DanGR]

I tested this out some just now. So previously you could wait X frames between grabbing and throwing before Luma would be able to act. I never tested it, but X was probably 10 frames or so. It was a small window.

You still can't input commands for Luma during grab->instant throw (with the few characters I tested for). However if you don't buffer the throw or time it perfectly, Luma can act during that X frame window that he previously couldn't act in.

Someone who can test the frame data oughta try confirming my findings. I'm not 100% on this yet.
---

So practically speaking, just throw Rosalina more quickly after grabbing and you're fine.

 

[Yonder]

Woah guys. The Marth and Lucina shield breaker nerf makes logical sense now. Because of the increased shieldstun, imagine those moves at their prime.

...huh (salty about Luigi but maybe it'll be Sheik and Rosa's turn soon)

edit: just thought of Ryus shield breaker move...oh ****

 

[Ulevo]

I tested this out some just now. So previously you could wait X frames between grabbing and throwing before Luma would be able to act. I never tested it, but X was probably 10 frames or so. It was a small window.

You still can't input commands for Luma during grab->instant throw (with the few characters I tested for). However if you don't buffer the throw or time it perfectly, Luma can act during that X frame window that he previously couldn't act in.

Looks like people are going to have be rather decisive with their throw options against Rosalina.

Do we know if projectiles have the equivalent shield stun formula that normal hitboxes do?