Official Viability Ratings v2 | Competitive Impressions

[Radical Larry]

So since Ganondorf can true combo at 45% with N-Air now, and his N-Air is a very great damaging tool and even has a good amount of buffs, I can see N-Air having more spotlight now than ever. This can also allow Ganondorf to jump a tier or a tier and a half when the attack is realized with heavy potential, since it can link up more properly, which makes it an absolute terror show. N-Air linking with Ganondorf is bigger than you think, and hey, it might even combo into attacks, a possibility that can happen.

But now Palutena, on the other hand, seems like she'll be losing about 3 or so tiers on the customs list due to the loss of the Infinite Lightweight renewal glitch, which will nerf her significantly and not make her as viable anymore in customs. A saddening loss for Palutena mains, but it's meant for balance.

Anyone's overall regards to their positions? What will tournaments be like with them?

 

[TriTails]

Ganon's N-air does not prevent him being obliterated by needles, *insert top tier projectiles here*. Still misses Mario from a SH height.

Not gonna work much IMO.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Sheik and ZSS and maybe Pikachu need some small nerfs.

Why would Pikachu need a nerf? How is that character problematic at all in the current metagame?

I mean if we're talking about a nerf of Sheik and maybe ZSS that's one thing that could improve the game for many people but if we start including characters like Pikachu on our wishlist we're gonna face exactly the kind of slippery-slope scenario where the Pikachu players complain about why their character gets nerfed when Fox/Rosie/Sonic don't. We'd still have [quite justified] complains about things not being fair.

I'd honestly rather keep the game in the state it is in right now with some reasonable buffs for hopeless characters every now and then. It's incredibly naive to think that you can just nerf any top tier character without massive consequences for the metagame.

 

[Jamurai]

Some shield-breakers have been left untouched, such as Ryu's and Puff's, as well as DK's down-B. So it's not universal.

When I heard DK's shield damage moves had been nerfed I was fearful for down-B cause that's the one I mainly use. Glad to see it's still the same. Side-B was ridiculous against shields beforehand anyway.

Anyone's overall regards to their positions? What will tournaments be like with them?

Ganon always had a pretty good advantage, his neutral and disadvantage are still ass so he's still not viable.

EDIT: Actually his neutral isn't horrendous but my point still stands.

 

[Radical Larry]

Some shield-breakers have been left untouched, such as Ryu's and Puff's, as well as DK's down-B. So it's not universal.

When I heard DK's shield damage moves had been nerfed I was fearful for down-B cause that's the one I mainly use. Glad to see it's still the same. Side-B was ridiculous against shields beforehand anyway.



Ganon always had a pretty good advantage, his neutral and disadvantage are still *** so he's still not viable.

Well, with N-Air, it's believable that he'll be up a bit more. Maybe I'm exaggerating his placement, but he can be more viable once we learn more about Ganondorf's possibilities with D-Throw > N-Air and any possible N-Air combos.

Since N-Air's first hit is meant to link to the second, there might be a chance that a SHFF with N-Air can lead to an opponent getting hit by another attack instead, given Ganondorf can recover from the landing lag before the opponent has a chance to recover from hitstun. It's a stretch, but still in the realm of possibility, so I might test it when I get home.

Still, I'm glad it can link better now and deals a bit more damage and KBG this time around. Maybe he'll rise up a few spots or a tier, we'll just wait to see.

 

[Gamesfreak13563]

Why would Pikachu need a nerf? How is that character problematic at all in the current metagame?

I mean if we're talking about a nerf of Sheik and maybe ZSS that's one thing that could improve the game for many people but if we start including characters like Pikachu on our wishlist we're gonna face exactly the kind of slippery-slope scenario where the Pikachu players complain about why their character gets nerfed when Fox/Rosie/Sonic don't.

Sheik and ZSS need a more substantial one as long it doesn't break their character. Pikachu might need one to compensate so he doesn't become the new king. After the top tiers at least should be relatively even in power and have good matchup spreads.

 

[Mario766]

One bad Ike mu gone, only a few more to go.

 

[C0rvus]

So... Custom moves are getting changed now? inb4 the floodgates of pro-custom players pours open with "Now there's no excuse NOT to use them!" again. Just a friendly reminder that Customs are very unbalanced even if they do get changed a bit in a patch or two. Although this patch seems to mostly have buffed some of the worse ones, so that's cool.

Also, way to finally get rid of the Infinite Lightweight glitch, Nintendo. I think that if anything shows that they are looking more seriously at customs now.

 

[David Viran]

Is anybody reading the patch thread rn? There might be a change in the sheild stun formula increasing it.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Side-B was ridiculous against shields beforehand anyway.

Yes cuz a frame 20 attack that doesn't auto break shields and has his FAF around frame 60 with his big head leaving his hurtbox exposed makes it ridiculous. Really the move gained a whole new utility thanks to shield break mechanic. Hand slap requires ur opponent to say to themselves that "hey I'm going to stay on the ground and not do any OoS". While both the needs to shield breaker and headbutt aren't game breaking, it sucks more for DK as it made playing on platform stages scary cuz of shield break stuffs. Long run it ain't even bad, but with the new shield stun and possible other mechanics, I kinda want that stuff. Call me greedy, IDC.

 

[Prometheus16]

So since Ganondorf can true combo at 45% with N-Air now, and his N-Air is a very great damaging tool and even has a good amount of buffs, I can see N-Air having more spotlight now than ever. This can also allow Ganondorf to jump a tier or a tier and a half when the attack is realized with heavy potential, since it can link up more properly, which makes it an absolute terror show. N-Air linking with Ganondorf is bigger than you think, and hey, it might even combo into attacks, a possibility that can happen.

I think that people who are really good at avoiding getting with Ganondorf can be really scary when they get into rage percentage...

I also could be wrong about this, but a lot of Ganondorf play seems to depend on how well you place his jab, forward, and down tilts... (this is just me speculating from playing him)

 

[Jamurai]

Shield stun global change

(To quote myself in the patch notes thread)

This might explain why strong shield breakers were nerfed. Increased shield stun means you're forced to hold shield for longer, which against strong shield breakers is maybe a tad too strong; shieldbreaker --> 3 HP left on my shield --> have to hold it b/c shield stun --> broken shield. So the shield breakers were nerfed in case the shield stun change made them a bit too easy to break shields with.

This also explains the Lucario video where Falco couldn't drop his shield against Lucario's aura sphere charging hitbox, because it hit him too frequently meaning he was in constant shield stun. Or something like that.

 

[Green L]

Luigi always could do down throw to up smash. Second, up smash as a ko move? That's a standard move for every other character. Luigi had great pros and equally bad cons but now his good points are mostly gone and his weaknesses are too overwhelming. Instead of complaining about Luigi did anyone think " This character isn't broken, this luigi main is just really skillful"

 

[TTTTTsd]

So this shield stun change tangibly benefits many characters but I'm equally worried it just increases the gap for the lesser characters more. The hell is this gonna do to chars like Sheik or co? I hope we can get an idea of how significant the increase is as a whole.

This is however good for Dr. Mario because his Up+B OoS is still dumb and now his Bair is even safer on AC I guess. Ryu serves to benefit as does Marth and anyone scared of hitting shields (marginally).

Additionally more shieldstun with SONIC in the game? I'm not so sure this is great (but I suppose he was pretty hard to punish on shield in certain instances anyway so I'm not sure how impactful it is.) This does lessen the strength of shield drop OoS options though IMO, we are now gonna be seeing even more grab/Nair/aerial OoS being a thing (or USmashes, whatevs)

 

[Prometheus16]

Luigi always could do down throw to up smash. Second, up smash as a ko move? That's a standard move for every other character. Luigi had great pros and equally bad cons but now his good points are mostly gone and his weaknesses are too overwhelming. Instead of complaining about Luigi did anyone think " This character isn't broken, this luigi main is just really skillful"

Yeah. Aren't Mario's, Dr. Mario's, and Luigi's head invincible during Up Smash?

 

[C0rvus]

As great as looser offense sounds, if perfect shielding stays the same, then it's a pretty meaningless change tbh. It could also make the game more broken in ways we don't know about yet. I'm all for change though. This game needs it.

 

[Rashyboy05]

Anyone believes that Lucario may be higher up in tier lists thanks to the increased shield stun? Any variation of Lucario's Neutral B can easily break shields because it nearly impossible to roll/drop the shield once your shield gets hit by Charging Aura Sphere.

 

[Prometheus16]

As great as looser offense sounds, if perfect shielding stays the same, then it's a pretty meaningless change tbh. It could also make the game more broken in ways we don't know about yet. I'm all for change though. This game needs it.

What exactly is supposedly being changed to shields?

 

[C0rvus]

Good lord, that sounds dumb. This is the sort of thing I want us to be wary of. The game may have just been made much dumber.

Prometheus16 Characters have been given more shieldstun on pretty much ALL of their moves. This could change everything or nothing.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Increased shieldstun across the board means Robin's Jab 1, Jab 2, and Wind Jab can't be punished oos as easily, Fire Jab can't be punished, period, shielding Arcthunder is going to get you in trouble in some fashion, and rolling out of Arcfire is harder after blocking it. Not a bad haul.

Though the thought of Sheik, Lucario, and Fox in such a metagame is intimidating and would not surprise if future patches targeted them, Lucario's Aura Sphere in particular.

 

[outfoxd]

This shield stun change makes me happy DH can move can while still in shield. Less damage means I'm less scared of blowing up my own shield too.

 

[Jamurai]

Anyone believes that Lucario may be higher up in tier lists thanks to the increased shield stun? Any variation of Lucario's Neutral B can easily break shields because it nearly impossible to roll/drop the shield once your shield gets hit by Charging Aura Sphere.

I don't think it'll affect his gameplan too much. It's more of a thing to consider against someone who shields too much. Also, I've heard that Yoshi Dair is now similar thanks to it hitting every two frames. That move was annoying already but damn. If you shield a Yoshi Dair then you better be almost full shield or u ded.

EDIT: Might be wrong about the Yoshi thing. Not sure.

 

[Damandatwin]

Luigi always could do down throw to up smash. Second, up smash as a ko move? That's a standard move for every other character. Luigi had great pros and equally bad cons but now his good points are mostly gone and his weaknesses are too overwhelming. Instead of complaining about Luigi did anyone think " This character isn't broken, this luigi main is just really skillful"

most of the community and apparently also Nintendo disagreed. old Luigi was dumb because 90% of his entire gameplan was just dthrow followups. it's like the diddy nerfs in that Luigi players are now going to have to be more varied in their options if they want to succeed. not saying he isn't a worse character now, because he probably is, but at least he isn't a one-trick pony.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So this shield stun change tangibly benefits many characters but I'm equally worried it just increases the gap for the lesser characters more. The hell is this gonna do to chars like Sheik or co? I hope we can get an idea of how significant the increase is as a whole.

Sheik's moves mostly have relatively low shield stun to my knowledge so she actually benefits less from it than somebody like Ryu I'd say.

 

[Mario766]

Ike will be more safe with his aerials and jab 1/2 and d-tilt are definitely safe if they weren't already.

How useful.

 

[PK Gaming]

Increased shieldstun across the board means Robin's Jab 1, Jab 2, and Wind Jab can't be punished oos as easily, Fire Jab can't be punished, period, shielding Arcthunder is going to get you in trouble in some fashion, and rolling out of Arcfire is harder after blocking it. Not a bad haul.

Though the thought of Sheik, Lucario, and Fox in such a metagame is intimidating and would not surprise if future patches targeted them, Lucario's Aura Sphere in particular.

Hah, for real? Nice.

EDIT: Did you test this btw?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think the change of shieldstun mechanics help Pikachu a lot. You're basically required to powershield neutral B from now on because some +3 frame advanage on shield is looking pretty dangerous.

 

[NegaNixx]

Question. Does the increase in shield stun just put Luigi's fireballs back to where they were before the nerf? (Non power shielded.)

 

[Radical Larry]

Anyone believes that Lucario may be higher up in tier lists thanks to the increased shield stun? Any variation of Lucario's Neutral B can easily break shields because it nearly impossible to roll/drop the shield once your shield gets hit by Charging Aura Sphere.

Lucario has a couple problems; he's very easy to KO and combo. Plus, his attacks are still incredibly weak without aura, and he has very little followups after grab. And he has even worse combo ability when his damage goes up, though his KO power increases; though opponents won't allow Lucario to even reach higher damages.

I think the change of shieldstun mechanics help Pikachu a lot. You're basically required to powershield neutral B from now on because some +3 frame advanage on shield is looking pretty dangerous.

...well...time for me to use Link's Bombs more. Seriously, they destroy Pikachu's Neutral B, so I guess it'd be good to use them since Shields are bad at defending against projectiles.

 

[Mario766]

Increased shieldstun across the board means Robin's Jab 1, Jab 2, and Wind Jab can't be punished oos as easily, Fire Jab can't be punished, period, shielding Arcthunder is going to get you in trouble in some fashion, and rolling out of Arcfire is harder after blocking it. Not a bad haul.

Though the thought of Sheik, Lucario, and Fox in such a metagame is intimidating and would not surprise if future patches targeted them, Lucario's Aura Sphere in particular.

Fire Jab can't be punished? I don't believe it. FAF of 36. Comparing this to Ike's jab 3, of FAF 39 which is easily punished on shield after patch.

 

[Dinoman96]

But now Palutena, on the other hand, seems like she'll be losing about 3 or so tiers on the customs list due to the loss of the Infinite Lightweight renewal glitch, which will nerf her significantly and not make her as viable anymore in customs. A saddening loss for Palutena mains, but it's meant for balance.

Lightweight is still a crazy good move, I don't think the exploit will nerf her into oblivion or anything like that. The glitch only worked on stages with platforms anyway so she hasn't changed at all when it comes to FD and other Omega stages.

 

[Ulevo]

Fire Jab can't be punished? I don't believe it. FAF of 36. Comparing this to Ike's jab 3, of FAF 39 which is easily punished on shield after patch.

Meta Knight's forward smash FAF is frame 42, yet it is nearly impossible to punish. You need to consider the shield stun and shield push.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

So uh, Ike's Nair was -2 on shield before.

....does that mean it might be positive on block now if the shield stun was increased? Along with many other moves in the game?

 

[Nobie]

Looking forward to all of the delightful things that can be done to follow up on shielded Shadow Balls.

 

[Deathcarter]

Besides nerfing Luigi, what did this patch do for the competitive scene? It's obvious that Pirate Ship and Mario Maker stages are already banned, so we just dropped Luigi a tier or two and called it a day?

Kind of disappointing, really. The stronger characters have one less threat to deal with.

I wonder why we don't do what Smogon does and host tournaments based on tier list viability? I understand we don't have a defined tier list yet, but for something like Melee, you could separate the tier lists and hold tournaments for those characters so we can have the worse off characters still getting a level of professional play.

With Luigi out of the way, Fox and Diddy are poised to shine a lot more in the metagame as outside of Rosalina they have no real roadblocks anymore. If more aspiring players look to pick them up now and potentially challenge Sheik and ZSS's dominance at the top of the meta that could only be a healthy development for the meta as much as it sucks for Luigi.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I'm very much unsure how to feel about this. It benefits some chars but IDK how good it is when blocking isn't as good an option when in reality it was like one of the few ways for some chars to even keep up. What happens now?

Poor shield options were already bad to deal with (For those who play chars without good OoS options), what happens now?

 

[Ghostbone]

Since N-Air's first hit is meant to link to the second, there might be a chance that a SHFF with N-Air can lead to an opponent getting hit by another attack instead, given Ganondorf can recover from the landing lag before the opponent has a chance to recover from hitstun. It's a stretch, but still in the realm of possibility, so I might test it when I get home.

If you get the tip 12% hitbox of first hit nair as you land, it can combo into fair/nair/probably bair idk.

 

[Mario766]

So uh, Ike's Nair was -2 on shield before.

....does that mean it might be positive on block now if the shield stun was increased? Along with many other moves in the game?

It is, but you still have landing lag and still have to space it out.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

It is, but you still have landing lag and still have to space it out.

I'm uhhhhh

I'm not sure this was a good universal change for the game or not...

 

[Mario766]

I'm uhhhhh

I'm not sure this was a good universal change for the game or not...

Things aren't unpunishable, shield just doesn't beat EVERYTHING besides grabs.